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Music Businesses Media Apple

Apple (R)ejects Copy Protection 89

Posted by pudge from the heh-heh-heh dept.
Frogbeater writes "Apple keeps on keeping on with the anti-copy protection crowd by using their technical info database as a platform for denouncing the artists who are getting on the bandwagon." I like this line from the technote: You may be unable to eject certain copy-protected audio discs, which resemble Compact Discs (CD) but technically are not. Indeed.
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Apple (R)ejects Copy Protection More

Apple (R)ejects Copy Protection

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  • TiBook CD/DVD eject issue (Score:4, Informative)

    by ubiquitin ( 28396 ) on Friday May 10, 2002 @02:29PM (#3498289) Homepage Journal
    So that's why those CD's weren't ejecting! ;) For the uninitiated, shift-Command-1 on Macs does a force media eject.

  • Go Apple! (Score:2, Informative)

    by mkoz ( 323688 )
    It is important to make these stands.

    >The audio discs are technically and legally not Compact Discs (CD format)

    I am not sure how much this will really matter in the end, but apple's stance on Rip. Mix. Burn. Has been impressive and I wish them the best. Since I do firmly believe that fair use does mean I can play it on my computer and put it on an mp3 player.

    • Re:Go Apple! (Score:4, Interesting)

      by davecl ( 233127 ) on Friday May 10, 2002 @02:46PM (#3498383)
      This isn't all a good thing. If you read to the end of the apple support page, you find the sting in the tail. Since these are not legally CDs, trying to play one in your Mac constitutes improper use. This menas you get to void your warranty and have to pay any repair charges.

      Now this is partly apple covering their backside, which is not unreasonable, but it could all get very interesting if someone with a significant repair bill and a lot of annoyance starts firing lawyers from the hip to get someone else to pay. Who will they go for - the record company, the people who devised this particular anti-computer scheme, the artists...

      And more importantly, would they have a case???
      • The legal system perplexes me, and I think that there is some CYA happening here.

        At the same time I think apple deserves credit for taking the recording industry head on. I think the Rip. Mix. Burn. ads of a couple years ago drew a line in then sand with the recording industry. Apple has a vested interest in keeping create types happy and supporting copyrights, but it also has a vested interest in ipods/itunes, etc. I think apple has taken a very sane position in saying that you can "Rip. Mix. Burn." and as part of that pointing out that various artists have chosen to not use the CD format. Some people are unaware that this is even happening.
      • Well, the recording industry is falsely advertising that these CDs are Compact Discs (TM) when they're not. A lawyer is going to go after everybody they can, in this case most likely Apple, the record company and the manufacturer. They'd have a case against at least the record company if somebody gets smart and brings an executive from Philips on the stand: "Is this shiny thing a Compact disc?" "No, it doesn't conform to the specifications required in order to claim its a Compact Disc"
        • They do not claim to be a compact disc either. Look closely at the disc, do you see the "Compact Disc" logo on it? It is compatible with some compact disc plyers but does not claim to be a compact disc in any way.
      • I think they have to do that. Otherwise, they might have to pay for the Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich that was mistaken for a compact disk as well.
      • Apple is covering themselves, but taking great pains earlier in the note to point people towards a class-action lawsuit of some sort against Sony Music. They're making it clear that
        a) we won't pay, so it's either you or...
        b) music companies are doing this to a lot of people, so...
        c) did we mention that those shiny things aren't LEGALLY proper CDs?

        People could try and press a case against Apple or the music industry, but this article is only missing an attachment: "Quick Form for Filing Suit Against Sony Music".

        Wonderfully funny stuff, seeing big companies bash each other around.
      • The answer to that has been given to us by Breke Breathed.

        Steve Dallas's Law Tips (November 29) "Who should I sue?"

        "On April 17th, the plaintiff, me, was brutally attacked by actor Sean Penn after I accidentally and not on purpose snapped a picture of him. The question: Who should I sue? ...

        "... Sean? No. Juries love famous people. Plus, he'd probably return to beat up the plaintiff again. Never sue psychopathic celebrities.

        "... Sean's wife? No. True, living with Madonna might make most anyone irritable, but proving liability would be difficult. Plus, she too might return to beat up the plaintiff.

        "... Opus? No. Although he got the plaintiff into this mess, he's also dead broke. Never, never, never sue poor people.

        "... The Nikolta Camera Co.? Yes! A major corporation with gobs of liquid cash, it was criminally negligent in not putting stickers on their cameras which read, 'Warning: Physical injury may result from photographing psychopathic Hollywood hotheads.'

        "... I plan to ask for $10 million."

        -----
        And, of course, he's right. The artists don't have any money. Apple's got money but they didn't create the problem; they're really just as much a "victim", and yes this is a CYA technote. But Sony's got money too, more than Apple even. And they're the ones that have created the "defective" discs. But the discs do say, "Will not play on PC", so Sony can deflect the blame anyway. Now if you were to discover a defective disc without any appropriate labelling, you'd have a case.
        • But the discs do say, "Will not play on PC", so Sony can deflect the blame anyway.

          I doubt that would be sufficient to get them off the hook, as the damage goes far beyond what is implied by the warning. At a minimum, they'd need a prominent warning that the "CD" can cause your computer to lock up and require professional servicing.

          To get an idea of where the baseline lies, read some of the warnings on products that everybody with three firing neurons knows are dangerous if misused..

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Danger Will Robinson... (Score:4, Informative)

    by h0tblack ( 575548 ) on Friday May 10, 2002 @02:30PM (#3498294)
    ...using come copy-protected cd's in the new flat-panel iMacs can be a VERY expensive mistake. Certain cd's cause the cd drive to jam and then the machine refuses to reboot. This means you have to take it to an Apple Dealer (or do it yourself it you know what your doing) to take the thing apart and manually wind the eject cogs. Seems there's no option for the good old fashioned paper-clip trick with these drives.
    More details here:
    http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/docs/cel dion.sh tml
    • You can still do the paperclip trick on a SuperDrive iMac though. Stick it in the right slot under the cd tray.

      I just looked at the cdrw model, and yup.. no hole likes the paper clip trick :(

      thanks apple.
    • I do believe the old "mouse button down on boot" trick still works to eject all removable media at boot.
      This is a firmware thing, so it should work before the OS even attempts to search for a boot drive.

      No?

  • so how? (Score:2)

    by Polo ( 30659 )
    how does this lock up the system?

    is it intentional?
    • Essentially, certain markers which should be present aren't. This can cause the machine to get confused, and nasty thinks can happen -- the laser might move futher than it should, for example, and this can cause all sorts of confusion for the OS.

      If you want details, Google is your friend.

  • Certain discs, huh? (Score:3, Funny)

    by the phantom ( 107624 ) on Friday May 10, 2002 @02:44PM (#3498370) Homepage
    Shakira?
    Jennifer Lopez?
    Celine Dion?

    Wow, I thought it would eject these at the mere thought of having to play them. I almost feel sorry for the poor iMacs that are forced to eat these.
    • Maybe Apple programmed this behavior into the iMac as a sort of compassionate intervention for people with really bad pop-culture tastes.

      No, no... I'm just going to keep this until you've had some time to think.
    • I so agree. My first reaction to reading that section was "Oh, good. This will never affect me because I listen to _REAL_ music." Like The laziest Men On Mars- The Terrible secret of Space Or Invasion of the Gabber Robots...

      Pi
    • "It might not be possible to eject the disc on computers without a manual eject hole."

      Don't worry, some of the Performas out there in the world are doing their part to stop the maddening evilness of bad music [empty-handed.com] through indigestion. Having no manual eject, and being that holding the mouse button during boot, only spits out held floppies, this means they are true martyrs; laying their life down; dying for the cause; taking one...
      ...for the team.

  • Getting the CD Out (Score:3, Informative)

    by The Donald ( 525605 ) <Don.doneldred@net> on Friday May 10, 2002 @02:48PM (#3498397)
    I'm worried for all the people out there who are not all that techo savy. If the CD will not eject, then they'll either have to take it out themselves, or bring it to an Apple Repair Shop. Quoting Apple's support page [apple.com] on this:
    If a disc with copyrighted protection technology remains inside the drive after following the procedures above, or if the computer does not start up normally, it is recommended that you contact an Apple Authorized Service Provider (AASP) or Apple Technical Support. CD audio discs that incorporate copyright protection technologies do not adhere to published Compact Disc standards. Apple designs its CD drives to support media that conforms to such standards. Apple computers are not designed to support copyright protected media that do not conform to such standards. Therefore, any attempt to use non standard discs with Apple CD drives will be considered a misapplication of the product. Under the terms of Apple's One-Year Limited Warranty, AppleCare Protection Plan, or other AppleCare agreement any misapplication of the product is excluded from Apple's repair coverage. Because the Apple product is functioning correctly according to its design specifications, any fee assessed by an Apple Authorized Service Provider or Apple for repair service will not be Apple's responsibility.
    Now, for a new user. If you go to Best Buy and puck up a copy of Celine Dion: "A New Day Has Come" (Don't know why, but that's a different story), it will look like a CD, smell like a CD, so to the average user, it's a CD. Just becuase the Disc doesn't have the Compact Disc Logo on it wont mean people will undersand that it's really not a CD.

    I think a lot of new users will think Apple is at fault for adhearing to the standards; and expect the problem to be fixed at no cost to them.

    • "users will think Apple is at fault for adhearing to the standards"

      Sad but true. Same people who think Mozilla is at fault for adhereing to the standards and breaking sites written for IE. Same people who think Firestone is at fault for sticking to their tire design and breaking when used with a very badly designed product (You didn't hear about those tires blowing on any of the millions of non-Fords they were on). People accuse the most obvious thing. My browser isn't working, must be the browser. The tire blew up, must be the tire. The CD drive got stuck, must be the CD drive.
      • Yeah, I never understood that. Ford develops a vehicle (Explorer) with poor stability. To resist against rollovers, Ford recommends their customers under-inflate their tires rather than fix the design. Tires weaken (obviously) and vechicles wreck. For some reason the mass public and press believe Ford that the problem is with the tires and not the shoddy vehicle.
    • How are they adhering to standards by providing a device which does not fail gracefully? I don't mind if the drive can't play these CDs, but if the device is going to suffer serious damage as a result of putting something in which has the exact same form factor as a proper CD and can only be differentiated by putting it in the device, then Apple has some bad engineering on its hands. Apple blaming this on the pseudo-CD makers is just passing the buck, sorry.

      • Re:Getting the CD Out (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Surlyboi ( 96917 )
        How are they adhering to standards by providing a device which does not fail gracefully? I don't mind if the drive can't play these CDs, but if the device is going to suffer serious damage as a result of putting something in which has the exact same form factor as a proper CD and can only be differentiated by putting it in the device, then Apple has some bad engineering on its hands. Apple blaming this on the pseudo-CD makers is just passing the buck, sorry.

        Not really, Apple's not the only one that has
        problems like this, Sony's electronics arm [com.com]
        has complained of this as well. (Which I find
        funny, considering Celine Dion is published by
        Sony's music arm, left hand not knowing what the
        right's doing much?)

        These discs are crashing machines [bbc.co.uk] regardless
        of maker. At least Apple's being up front about it.
        • In the com.com story you linked, there is no mention of Sony complaining about this copy protection scheme. Unless you are asserting that Philips is now a Sony company.

          As to the BBC link, the computers that could crash and have trouble ejecting may well be these iMacs. They are not specific in the article.

          I hold to my assertion that if the only way to get the drive to eject a faulty CD is to take it into a repair shop that the design is flawed. Now if these CDs were the wrong size, or had a non-standard surface instead of the aluminum or whatever it is, then I can almost see it. As it is, from my understanding of the write-up here, the Apple drive fails solely due to non-compliant data on an otherwise standard disc.

          For my part, I'll just assume that my current CD collection is fine, and I'll scrupulously avoid any labels belonging to the RIAA or who have been found using this copy protection scheme. But I have to wonder if the eject problem can happen to commercially available discs, what's to prevent similar problems with home-burned discs and the like?
          • Bah, I quoted the wrong article, here's the one that
            quotes A Sony spokesman [nytimes.com]

            And again, I stand by my assertion that the discs
            themselves are the problem, regardless of who the
            computer maker is. Why release a product to market
            if there's a chance it's going to break equipment,
            or not even work at all? Hell, the poor woman
            mentioned in the above article can only play her
            CD in her car!
      • If some black-hat hackers were stealthily distributing CDs designed to exploit the CD standards to make mechanisms fail, you'd probably say these guys were crooks. But if Sony does the exact same thing, it's the PC manufacturer's fault? Besides, Apple didn't design a one of their CD mechanisms, they are all third-party, and PC drives can be damaged too.
        • If some black-hat hackers were stealthily distributing CDs designed to exploit the CD standards to make mechanisms fail, you'd probably say these guys were crooks. But if Sony does the exact same thing, it's the PC manufacturer's fault? Besides, Apple didn't design a one of their CD mechanisms, they are all third-party, and PC drives can be damaged too.

          And guess who makes a lot of those CD drives? That's right, it's Sony.... Not sure what's in the new systems, but my B&W G3 came with a Sony CD Rom, my TiBook has a Matshita drive though.

          • my TiBook has a Matshita drive though. Inidentally, Matshita's a wholly owned subsidiary of Panasonic. They made most Macintosh drives - My Slot-loading iMac's got a matdrive. :)

            Triv

            • Matshita's a wholly owned subsidiary of Panasonic.


              Minor correction: It's the other way around. Matsushita (spelled in full) is the groups who uses the brand Panasonic in certain cases.

              It used to be that Quantum (the HDD manufacturer) belonged to the group. I don't know what happened to Quantum since.
        • Your point about Apple not making the drives is the best thing I've read in this thread so far-- I wasn't trying to be critical of Apple per se, just going after the person putting out the hardware. Because frankly, if a black hat can make a CD that destroys my drive, yes, that is the fault of the maker of the drive. What's insane is that it's likely Sony making both the drive and the destructive CD.

          Imagine if there were a signal you could put on a video tape that would prevent your VCR from ejecting the tape... that's how I see this. There should always be a button that I can press that says, "whatever the drive is doing, stop it, move all the mechanicals to where they need to be, and open the drive".
          • I am not arguing that it is not Bad for drives to be damaged by such things. Yes, ideally, you are right, the drives should gracefully fail by ejecting the problem discs, or something. I am saying, however, that when someone exploits that "bug" or "misfeature" or whatever you wish to call it -- even if is not an intent, but merely a known consequence, to damage the mechanism -- then the parties doing the damaging are to "blame." It's not like they are doing something that is supposed to be done. They are going outside the agreed-upon specs, with the full knowledge that it will cause damage to some mechanisms. Whether or not the damage could have been prevented by better engineering beforehand is irrelevant to the culpability of those employing the copy protection scheme. And I am not sure if a disclaimer about it not working on PCs is sufficient to absolve them.
            • I think the issue is that the drives aren't recognizing the CDs, but there's enough in the format to confuse the heck out of them... I would imagine that either an update to the OS or drive firmware will soon follow to fix the issue.

    • Re:Getting the CD Out (Score:2, Interesting)

      by h0tblack ( 575548 )
      Yep, it's a real shame that again lack of knowledge/information is likely to cause confusion. For those in the know, cd's have long been a bizzare and often black art (especially in the early days of burning). Now companies such as Epic and Columbia (read: Sony) are selling things that in the eyes of 99% of the population are Audio-CD's. People don't don't tend to care what format a cd is in, but if it works in their cd-player, then they expect it to work in their computer's cd player. Selling non red-book format cd's in this way, causing the potential to damage hardware is a extreme case of taking advantage of the general public IMHO. Interestingly enough, it's not just computers that have problems, many other cd-playing devices have problems, altho non as drastic as the iMac it appears. (Altho you can nicely crash an x-box using a celine dione cd I believe).
      Now, I wonder how Sony made devices handle these non-cd's ;)
    • While I agree with you in genereal, you don't have to be that techo savy to hold down the mouse button upon startup. This has at least always worked for me in the past (but I haven't tried the CDs they mention yet and probably never will :).

  • Ironic (Score:5, Funny)

    by dumbArtMajor ( 549607 ) on Friday May 10, 2002 @02:50PM (#3498407)
    The following discs are known to use the copy protection:
    Shakira: "Laundry Service"
    Jennifer Lopez: "J To Tha L-O!"
    Celine Dion: "A New Day Has Come"

    "These people resemble musicians but technically are not."
    • "These people resemble musicians but technically are not."

      They always struck me as the people who played "connect the dots" and coloured in colouring books.

    • Re:Ironic (Score:2, Interesting)

      by dalassa ( 204012 )
      I had a moment of horror when I realized I owned one of those CDs, execpt it played fine in my G4's super drive and I already ripped it. So its not exactly very well protected is it?

      I think this teaches me to look far more carefully at the labels. I do not want to toast my drive.
  • i personally am very, very pleased that apple is making a stand like this and not caving in to the record companies like everyone else. apple has pretty much always done things its own way, and this is just another example of that.

    of course, i'm sure if they did start supporting copy protection thier ipod sales would drop like a rock.
  • id bet that somewhere behind this is MTV. Look at the artist list, who else supports these freaks. I will laugh when all of the 12 yr old girls complain to their rich daddys who got them new iMacs that their "broked"

    LOL in advance

  • Welcome to hell. (Score:3, Funny)

    by phagstrom ( 451510 ) on Friday May 10, 2002 @04:01PM (#3498904)
    This must be what hell is like....

    Having a Jennifer Lopez CD in the drive and NOT being able to get it out.

    I would have to opt for a small tactical nuclear weapon. The CD is getting out of the drive - one way or the other.
    • This must be what hell is like....

      Having a Jennifer Lopez CD in the drive and NOT being able to get it out.

      Could be worse, you could be able to play it too...

  • Who cares if these CD's are copyprotected(other than the fact it's a very slippery slope)... Does it make them more desirable to the consumer with the whole "You told me I can't do it so I'm going to" attitude... I can't think of anyone that would actually want to steal that music, other than to mock and laugh at it

  • Apple sould seek compensation (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WalletBoy ( 555942 ) on Friday May 10, 2002 @04:36PM (#3499176)
    Apple should at least try to seek some compensation from the RIAA for all the wasted man-hours spent taking support calls for people using these non-standard CDs.
  • In this article, and in the ensuing discussion, the assertion has been made and supported that these particular optical discs are not technically CDs. My understanding, however, was that these discs were CDs, but did not comply with the Red Book standard (and thus could not be called CD:DA discs).

    A minor distinction, I know... either way, these things are not true audio CDs, and should not be advertised as being such. But could someone please clear this up for me?
    • Isn't a CD defined by the Red Book?
      • My understanding is that the Red Book standard defines the Compact Disc: Digital Audio format specifically. In other words, Red Book specifically defines, not the Compact Disc, but the format used to store audio data on a compact disc, thus making it an "Audio CD." It is this standard to which the "copy-protected CDs" do not comply. For this reason, they can be properly called CDs, but not "Compact Disc: Digital Audio," and so cannot bear Philips's logo.

        Again, if I'm wrong, please correct me.
    • This is related to the IP involved and the fact that the two owners of the Trademark Compact Disk are Phillips and (some company i can't recall at the moment, maybe Sony).

      If the owners of the TM don't want to license it to the Copyright Protected Disk manufacturers then their products can't be called CDs.

      That's what I know about it.
  • I have a PC. There is no manual eject button for CD's. If I insert one of these CD's, my computer will NEVER START UP AGAIN. Time to sue these fucks. I'll make sure to list in compensation that their DEFECTIVE DISC destroyed thousands of dollars worth of music that I'd downloaded off of KazaaLite/LimeWire.
  • Articles (A) [wdrcc.de] and (B) [www.chip.de] (both in German, with pictures). Simply use a felt tip pen or a Post It (may come lose, so watch out) to cover up the start of the "bad" track. Currently works with all CD copy protection systems but "MediaCloq", including "Cactus Data Shield" and "Key2Audio" (the one Sony uses).
  • ...I'd encourage you to go out and buy CDs like these and return them the next day to the store for a refund, and make sure they know it's because they won't work in your computer or other device. If enough people annoy enough retailers, the large buyers will figure out it's not worth the hassle and this trial period for copy-protected (non)-CDs will show the record companies standardising on these won't fly. If you all do nothing now, these will be standard in a year or two and we won't be able to do a thing about it. If you don't like it, do something about it.
  • I am not in support of these pseudo-cds at all, however no damage occurs at all. Sure the computer acts funny while the disc is in the drive and may noy start if the disc is in the drive, but it starts working normally again after it has been ejected.

  • Write a driver, apple. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cryptochrome ( 303529 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @03:59PM (#3506927) Journal
    Boy, if I bought these CDs I'd be pissed. Apple should write a driver to recognize, read, and rip these CDs, just to piss off the RIAA. Breaking the computer is unacceptable.

    Seriously now... the tech industry has had to put up with a lot of shit from the (comparatively puny) content industry... if they wanted they could probably kill the music industry in short order by providing tools, lobbying, and anti-marketing. Show 'em who's boss.
    • Sure, let's piss off the 1600 lb gorilla -- 1600, not 800, mind you -- of the music industry. That'd go well, and I really think that Apple would be litigated to death before it could even scream first. Now, if some disgruntled Dell employee were to make a driver and surreptitiously include it in every new Dell's software and all the old Dell updates, THAT would be funny. I would laugh my ass off.
    • If apple wrote a driver to reconize, read or rip the cds, it would be in violation of the DMCA, or circumventing a copy protection scheme.
      • it would be in violation of the DMCA, or circumventing a copy protection scheme.

        Only if that's the primary purpose of the driver... just say that the driver is a fix for the very serious problem of not being able to eject the CDs. When users install the update, they notice that iTunes just happens to be able to rip the CDs too.

  • Just an idea, but what if you went into Best Buy (or other large media store), and bought a non-CD, which I still displayed in the store as a CD. Take said non-CD home, and then returned it the next day? How much money the does the store lose with each return? How many returns would it take before a store would have to start seperating the non-CD's form the CDs. Is there a truth in advertising law that says these non-CD's can;t be sold under the category CD? Just thoughts...
  • I liked the OF hack: eject cd
    Very simple and very nice in an emergency, since it runs before the computer boots. Maybe some ingenious person will be able to write a little forth code for OF to disable the copy protection mechanism since AFAIK OpenFirmware conrols I/O.
  • If my mac got damaged by one of these pseudo-cds, I'd be tempted to sue the record company.

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