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Graphics Businesses Software Apple

Epson Treats Mac Users Like Second-Class Citizens? 57

Posted by pudge from the they-are-just-jealous dept.
Robert Jung writes "Is Epson waging a coordinated discrimination effort against Mac users? MacSlash reports that Epson is refusing to honor their $50 rebate coupon if the printer was purchased at an Apple retail store, and Daily Mac notes that if you want Mac OS X drivers for Epson scanners, you must fill out a form, fork over $4, and wait for the mail to arrive -- while Windows users are able to download XP drivers for free." Apparently, Mac OS (Classic) users can also download the drivers for free. Maybe they assume Mac OS X users don't have Internet access?
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Epson Treats Mac Users Like Second-Class Citizens? More

Epson Treats Mac Users Like Second-Class Citizens?

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  • what problem? (Score:2, Informative)

    by macsox ( 236590 )
    i have an epson stylus photo 780 and the drivers are readily available at epson.com. they are the only company of all of the peripherals i own with an accurate mac os x info page. not to mention the fact that epson rolls drivers for many of their printers into mac os installs and updates. it seems like a good, simple way to do it.

    • Re:what problem? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by dewhite ( 412211 )
      That's all true, but I'm still a little burned by the fact that they still haven't produced drivers for my epson 1160 wide format printer. It's really important to the work I do sometimes, so for now I have to export my documents to a win2k machine to print on large format paper such as 11x17. Oh well, maybe someday...
      • Why don't you print in Classic mode?

        They have drivers for that.

        What is your *real* problem?

        • Re:what problem? (Score:2, Insightful)

          by LordNimon ( 85072 )
          Well, that's stupid. What if his apps run natively in OS X? Is he supposed to launch classic mode, relaunch his app, and then print? And what if his apps don't run in classic mode? The latest version of MS Office is only for OS X.

          I have an Epson 3000 which costs a whole lot more than his printer, and I also have no idea if, or when, Epson will release OS X drivers.

          • If his apps run natively in OS X, then they are using the Carbon API. Unless he suddenly stopped using all of mis Macintosh Applications and switched to NeXT applications which were ported to Cocoa. Carbon is a clarified Mac OS API, which runs equally well between Mac OS X and Mac OS classic (as long as you have CarbonLib installed. Almost all Mac OS 8.5 and above have this, it's a free download for 8.1).

            Have you tried your Ofice X on Mac OS 9? The solution is to just run Mac OS 9, because you don't yet have support for your wide fromat Epson, and your word requires it. Just like anything else, you can't fully migrate to Mac OS X until all of your hardware is supported. In the mean time, Maybe Mac OS 9 isn't as purty to show off, but you use what lets you get your work done. If you really need the stability of OS X right now, then you can reboot to print if it is easier than sending your file off to another machine.

            Just out of curiosity, does your Wide format printer have a print server? I would think that that might alleviate your problem as well.
            • If his apps run natively in OS X, then they are using the Carbon API. Unless he suddenly stopped using all of mis Macintosh Applications and switched to NeXT applications which were ported to Cocoa. Carbon is a clarified Mac OS API, which runs equally well between Mac OS X and Mac OS classic (as long as you have CarbonLib installed. Almost all Mac OS 8.5 and above have this, it's a free download for 8.1).

              Have you tried your Ofice X on Mac OS 9?

              This is not exactly true. Carbon apps can be made to run in both OS X and OS 9, or made to only run in OS X.

              MS Office v. X is carbon and does not run in OS 9.

              The real solution, albeit a bit awkward, is to press the preview button on the print dialog, and save the file as a PDF file, then print from the classic version of Acrobat Reader. This is what I had to do before Epson released the drivers for my Stylus Photo 870.

              • Aye. The Candy coating on OS X probably reflects useage of Quartz related technologies. Well, thanks for pointing that out. I suppose that the printing interface is completely handled at the DisplayPDF level, so that Darwin hackers cant really contribute here either.

                Honestly, I was trolling to see if anyone had tried Office X on Mac OS classic, because I couldn't google for it. Too much spam from Office X reviews noting that the Classic environment could run previous versions of Office, so that there wasn't much reason to upgrade if you already used Office 2000.

                Thanks for setting me straight. I still wonder if using a print server would alleviate the problem.
        • I have boycotted classic. Not because I *hate* it, but because its the only way I've been able to really test the limits of MOSX. Well, that AND I have 170 days uptime as of today, mostly because of my classic boycott. Classic was the root of every kernel panic I ever encountered (no 'root' pun intended).
      • Set up a Linux print server? =]Worked for me. Different printer, though... But I'd be surprised if you couldn't use it.

        -Sara
    • If you read the above text again you will see that they were talking about the EPSON Scanners
    • I've downloaded from Epson the OS X drivers for the 780 and the 750 printers. No problem. Seems to be the same driver.

      But, the Apple official OS X site did not list the 750 as a supported printer, and I think neither did the Epson official list. I only found the 750 driver by looking for it under the long list of 750 drivers.

  • ATI doesn't have OS X drivers for their ATI-TV USB devices. Formac has OS X drivers for their Formac Studio, but it doesn't have all of the functionality of their OS 9 drivers.

    I'm a new Apple guy (only 1 month on Mac so far), and I'm just not getting this. Why aren't more hardware/software developers writing their programs/drivers for OS X? I realize there's probably still a large OS 9 userbase, but since the future is obviously OS X, it seems a no brainer for companies who's products are targeted right at the Mac crowd don't update their systems. Is it a case of "Maybe Mac will give up on this OS X" idea, a lack of funds, or just general laziness?

    • Re:Been seeing this in general (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Simple. Same reason Apple isn't racing to optimize Mac OS X for G3 Macs: the company doesn't make any more money by supporting a product you already bought.

      You already own those peripherals; I already own a G3 Mac. In both cases the manufacturers have made the sale, and have little motivation to give away something which would increase the product's usefulness after the fact. They would prefer people just buy new products.

      Reputation for support, you say? Hah. I'm guessing most of the peripherals in question were purchased with no guarantee of support under Mac OS X. Apple may have promised that Mac OS X itself would support G3 Macs, after many of those Macs had already been sold in fact, but they never promised it would work well.

      The computer industry believes in supporting products to a bare-minimum extent. Almost no one takes responsibility for a product's long-term compatability with other products, no matter how important that is. And because this is pretty much an industry-standard practice, there's little risk for manufacturers because if people get angry at one company, they'll be stuck with the fact that the competitors are no better.

      It's quite a racket.
    • Part of the problem is that OS 9 users outnumber OS X users by a significant margin. Every day, the ratio changes slightly in favor of OS X, but it will be a long time before it hits 50/50.

      Now, of the people who actually buy new software/hardware, the ratio of OS X to OS 9 users is higher. People who are still using a PowerMac 8600, which doesn't support OS X, probably aren't buying a whole lot of new hardware or software anyway.

      Another "excuse" I've heard is that some vendors are waiting for Apple to include certain features in OS X before first. What would be the point of writing a multimedia driver if the multimedia subsystem in OS X is going to be rewritten in the next version (for example)? I think Creative is using this excuse for their Sound Blaster Live cards. It doesn't surprise me, Creative Labs has a history of lying about the capabilities of operating systems they don't want to support. [google.com]

  • Is Epson being *that* unreasonable? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 08, 2002 @03:48PM (#3132263)
    I used to work for one of the Big printer mfgs (I'm still under NDA, but it is known by two initials...) in their driver development labs.

    First, you'd have to be a fucking fool if you think that Epson is waging some sort of Microsoft funded war. They have everything prior to OSX on their website, so that's pretty clear.Epson is well known in the Mac world for color proofing tools, and well respected by many graphic artists I've dealt with.

    The tendency at the Mac conspiracy sites is to be just as bad as the radical linux sites.

    Back to my original point regarding the drivers -- OSX was, in our opinion, a horrid platform to code for. Despite the abundance of tools, we ran into flack from Apple, from irrational and mean spirited users, and had to put up with awful development tools. Management finally said something to the effect of "Fuck this" no hurry here. This was due in large part to the reaction of users.

    This was about three months ago. I left my job to help my wife raise our new daughter, so this isn't a disgrunteled thing. I totally support Epson in this, though I suspect many in the Mac community will be absolutely fucking rabid.

    Don't. It does more damage than you think.

    Posting AC for the obvious reasons.

    • Anon? (Score:3, Funny)

      by hotsauce ( 514237 )

      Anonymously? How many HP driver developers left their jobs three months ago to help their wives raise their daughters?

    • In the early days of OS X, I saw a lot of developers saying stuff like, "MacOS X is a horrible platform for developers" and "It's so difficult to program for, that it could be years before our product is released."

      In many of those cases, I've seen the same developer come out later touting how easy it was to write software for OS X. In rarer cases (Connectix), they've actually admitted that the difficulty was not the platform so much as their ignorance of it.

      I just think it's interesting.

    • That's right, blame the platform for HP's outrageously buggy drivers. ;) Perhaps the entire Microsoft line of operating systems has been "horrid to code for" as well?

      It's nothing personal...I've just 'personally' downloaded a driver from hp.com that said *in the readme's step by step instructions* that the installer will lock up at the end of the file copy process so press CTRL-ALT-DELETE and kill it!

  • Rebate's (Score:4, Informative)

    by The Donald ( 525605 ) <Don&doneldred,net> on Friday March 08, 2002 @03:48PM (#3132264)
    You kept copies of everything, right? When I have this problem with rejections of rebates, I give one call to the rebate provider (Most likley not Espon, a secondary company that fulfulls the request), then write a letter to or call your Atty. General of your state. Explain the situation. Just read the fine print on your rebate. If could say "Not valid at Apple stores", but I did not see that on any rebate form. Usually, second letter to the rebate company, sent certified, with a notice saying that the rejection was sent to your Atty. General's office will get some results.
  • I found the $30 rebate for my Epson C80 in PDF format here. [apple.com] Note that it specifically excludes purchases at Gateway stores in the fine print.

    Perhaps there was similar fine print for the Stylus Photo 820 (for which there is no rebate coupon at the Apple store online)?

    Caveat emptor!

  • It won't scan on my MicroTek X6 USB but they say they support all Epson FireWire scanners. It gets updated very frequently, so you can keep checking for support of your scanner.

    Their site: http://www.hamrick.com/vsm.html [hamrick.com]

    If you're unsure, read the 662 user comments at VersionTracker [versiontracker.com] before installing.

    • Yeah right. I love the way VueScan claims to work with most scanners. That is total horse shit. It works with most SCSI, some Firewire and about 1% of the USB scanners on the market.

      Your statement should read, if you're lucky VueScan may work, to some degree, with a small amount of scanners that have been targeted to the Mac in the past 3 years. Since USB was the key to scanner sales for Mac users for 3+ years now, this software does not help much.
      • it works with ... about 1% of the USB scanners on the market


        Are there really a hundred different USB scanners on the market?

        • Canon D646U
          Memmorex 6136u
          HP 3300C
          Prime Film 1800U
          Visioneer One Touch 8100
          Umax Astra 2200U
          Canon 1200U
          Canon 620
          Umax Astra 3400
          Acer Scan 310U
          Mustek 1200
          Umax astra 4400
          Umax Astra 2000U
          Umax Astra 2100U
          Canon N650U

          Just the first couple when I did a searc hon ebay for USB scanner. Yes there are over 100 USB scanners. My point was that USB has been the biggest selling points for peripherals for Macs for 3 years. Yes there have bee FireWire scanners around for a little while, but what average Joe is going to spend 4X the price ofa USB scanner?
  • Maybe someone who has done a little bit of looking can answer this. Are the Mac retail outlets selling the devices in question cheaper?
    Is Epson cutting a deal with them to forego the rebate system so that they can show a real cheap retail price?

  • Never attribute to malice that which may be explained by stupidity.

    Or just an incompetently executed campaign.

    Epson has always supported the Mac well. Most traditional Mac users swore by Epson in the Dark Days when everyone left but Epson continued to provide their entire product line. Most of these traditional Mac users also haven't left OS 9 so Epson hasn't had to, but give it a few months now that Photoshop 7 (for OS X) is set to appear.

    • Good comment. Epson has always supported the Mac platform well, going back to the 1980's.

      The first printer I owned for an Apple ][+ in 1981 was an Epson. It was less expensive than the Apple model and twice the quality.

      Epson is a good deal bigger now than they were back then. If a Mac user writes their tech support (my one experience in late 2000) you get back a form letter email suggesting that (your problem, whatever it is) is likely due to an extensions conflict .

      But a followup email gets decent results. Tedious but they're a big company. They were fast off the mark when OS X shipped. HP took forever and I don't care what the ignorant excuse was that posted in a different thread by a former HP employee. Epson was there with drivers for most consumer printers day one.

      Big companies do indeed do stupid and ignorant things from time to time. They all do. Name one that hasn't. Epson of all printer manufacturers supports the Mac best. Other devices I'm not as certain about. But Epson printers I know.

  • whatever (Score:2, Informative)

    by great_plains ( 565288 )
    I've got an epson printer, and it's the only printer I've ever found that has Serial (mac style,) USB, AND parallel - How is that discrimination against mac?
    • Easy. Install OS X on a Mac and try to use the printer. Does it work? If the answer is No, then send in your $4 to Epson to get it to work.

      BTW, if the same thing happened on an XP machine, you could just download a driver from their site.

      Is that any simpler for you?

  • Epson will be allowing free downloads... (Score:4, Informative)

    by MysteryMilk ( 553413 ) on Friday March 08, 2002 @06:05PM (#3133069) Homepage
    I read this article too, and contacted Epson. According to Epson's customer relations the $3.99 charge for the Mac OS X scanner drivers are for shipping only. This is only for those who don't, or can't download the drivers, but want and actual CD. Epson normally charges $9.95 for for replacement or updated driver CDs, so this is actually a good price. When the drivers are released, the CDs will ship, and the drivers will be available for download...for free! I'm sorry the person who wrote the DailyMac.com article didn't do any research, or actually read the details of this. Mop-Boy
  • Ever try to get a Canon, UMAX, Astra, or other scanner working on a Mac? It sucks. They make you load several very buggy inits in OS9 and don't even have OSX support. Epson has the best (TWAIN) scanner drivers for MacOS. Period. Maybe their rebate policy isn't the greatest (I wouldn't know.) but until the other companies would get off their axes to actually write workable drivers, I continue to recommend Epson scanners for MacOS and OSX.
  • If you buy a printer at a Gateway store you're going to have your rebate rejected too. The reason is very simple: the $50 off is already reflected in the price of the printer. Epson sells them to Apple and Gateway at a discounted price, so if they were to give the rebate it would be them paying out the $50 twice. If Apple or Gateway chooses to sell the printer at the regular price, thats their business.
  • The MacOS 9 driver is free for download, but the OS X [hp.com] driver is $10 by mail.
  • I was so dissatisfied with Epson's support of OS X, I bought a Lexmark Z43, and I'm loving it. While ink is more expensive, the heads are replaced with every cartridge and Lexmark supports OS X on practically every printer they sell! I remember bashing them back in the day, but definitely not now...
  • Apple last time I checked, wasn't supporting apple serial printers, which sucks big time. My style writer 2500 works just fine, but can't use under OS X. Apple officialy is only going to support USB/firewire printers, apple sucks for that. I tried a cheapo apollo 2500, which is USB, it shows that its an apollo printer and then says its unsupported. So now I'm going to end up spending 2x as much to get an HP, not to mention then by my seperate USB cable. Oh and by the way I was rejected for a similar topic last month. 2002-02-24 00:22:06 OS X is not new, still lacking basics (apple) (rejected)
    This sig is a virus, take it and use it.
  • I've been pontificating on various discussion boards [macslash.com] about Epson's lack of support for their older printers (and I use the term very loosely). I bought my Stylus Scan 2500 [epson.com] a little less than a year before OSX came out from the Apple on-line store). I have repeatedly contacted Epson to find out if they plan on supporting the Stylus scan under OSX. Their respnonse? Buy a new, cheaper Epson. And I paid about 400 bucks for this all-in-one printer. True, some guy has found drivers that allow me to print (albeit with no quality control, no ability to switch betwen b&w and color, no scan support) which I'm thankful that I can just print out quick docs in OSX. I'd link to the site but it's been down lately.

    Since I, and so many other Mac OSX users, have have been treated by Epson this way (BUY A NEW PRINTER! FEED INTO CONSUMERISM!), I doubt many of us will be buying epson in the future. Too bad. It was a great printer.

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