Linux PPC Boots On The Powerbook G4 Titanium 268
Therlin writes: "As this article explains, LinuxPPC 2000 Q4 succesfully boots on Apple's new PB G4. The Linux Kernel, X Windows and the LinuxPPC work. They also indicate that the internal modem and ethernet will probably work, but it hasn't been tested yet." It's really sad to see
such a sweet machine crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons.
Re:About the mouse... (Score:1)
Re:TrackPad (Score:1)
When I started travelling more with my busted-all-to-hell laptop with no functional internal pointing device, I started using a Trackman Marble. I've since replaced all mice on all of my computer equipment both at home and at work with one, because I'm more efficient and controlled with a trackball. I've also found that it's alot more comfortable on my poor wrists.
By the same token, I do still have a few mice kicking around for when I play any FPS, because a trackball just doesn't do the trick.
-Jer
You lamers can't find a mouse? (Score:1)
I suppose nobody ever heard of USB mice?
Re:Linux? (Score:2)
However, I'm counting down the days to March 24 when the OS X final 1.0 is released. By then, all the debug code will be removed and the graphics accelertion will be finalized (there's NONE in the PB)
So, if you want a *NIX for your PowerBook, LinuxPPC is the one to get.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
OH Quit 'yer Whinin'! (Score:1)
If Slashdot and Slashdotters don't quit whinin' about Apple and their one mouse button, there will be spankings all around. See, that's the reason there's USB PERIPHERALS, so you can ADD a mouse with 8 buttons, or however many will make you shutup and enjoy a kick ass machine. So deal with it and move on.
Re:Back up the train (Score:2)
My Pismo also supports one gigabyte of RAM, although Apple never sold it with such a configuration. The UMA-2 machines are supposed to all be PC133, so I'm sure eventually the PowerBook will support it. Hopefully by then it will be cheaper and battery technology will have advanced to make up for the extra power consumption of the faster bus.
And, the graphics chipset is actually the same as my model, a Rage 128 Mobility with the same 8 MB of VRAM. That's my biggest disappointment. I was hoping the Radeon Mobility chipset would be available, or that they'd at least bump up the VRAM to 16 MB. Dell sticks up to 32 MB in their Inspirons, but Apple still leaves only 8 MB in their PowerBook, iBook, and iMac, and 16 MB (by default; the 32 MB Radeon is an option) in the Cube and bottom-level G4 desktop. Boo!
I like the TiBook, but I'm waiting until the next revision to unload my Pismo for one.
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I'm actually liking having one button. (Score:2)
My normal hand positions when using the trackpad are roughly this [ofdoom.com].
I keep the fingers of my left hand on function, control, option, and apple; and use my right hand on the trackpad. I just use the thumb of my right hand to hit that one big button.
I really appreciate not having to make all those little side to side finger motions in order to hit a different mouse button. I just hold down the function key I want (without any side to side movement of my left hand) and whack that big button with my thumb (no additional side to side movement of the right needed, as I can reach that big button from any position on the pad).
Now that I'm used to it, it's great
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Re:About the mouse... (Score:2)
I have a dual G4 tower that I only run Linux on (I develop on it.) I found that the one button mouse made it pretty difficult to work with. XFree86 supports "faking" multibutton mice, using the control/shift/option keys - but what happens if you need a combination that is already occupied by the "workaround?"
So, I just went out and bought myself two logitech optical USB mice (one for my development pc). There was no additional configuration required, it was just seen as having more buttons than a normal apple mouse.
Now, for laptops - that's a different story. I'm not familar with the internals of a powerbook, but I'd imagine that the trackpad is hardwired. I've seen USB trackballs that "clip" onto the side of the laptop so no desktop surface is needed. For the most part, I'd think that hacking a multi button trackpad into a laptop would be more trouble than it's worth -- besides, given the modular nature of desktops, it's easier to replace a $200 motherboard or a $50 mouse if you mess it up -- but I would want to replace a $3500 laptop whose warranty I just certainly voided.
Just my two cents.
-Jeff
yes, and? (Score:1)
Most Mac users probably don't even know what UNIX is, and while trying to convince them that they should load up some l337 UNIX-ripoff might be a fun way to spend a Saturday afternoon, it is an excercise in futility. UNIX/Linux people, on the other hand, can not justify buying Apple hardware just to run GNU/Linux, because you can build a dual-processor SMP Pentium III box with a shiteload of RAM for half of what an SMP G4 will cost you. No, it won't be RISC, but if you want a RISC box to run GNU/Linux on, buy a real UNIX workstation, like a SUN, HP, SGI, or IBM. (And while you're at it, try running a real UNIX on it. ;-) You also won't get Altivec -- but hey, were you really going to be running Photoshop on Linux anyway?
I understand that there are people out there, like Malda, that have uses for both GNU/Linux and MacOS, and to you, I say: if you can afford a G4, you shouldn't be dual-booting, for God's sake. Hey, Malda! Does Sarcasta ever cry out "Oh, Mr Jobs!" in bed?
The only demographic which has a use for Linux PPC on Mac is owners of "Doorstop class" hardware who want to run El Cheapo headless servers for HTTP, DNS, routing, et al.
Slightly offtopic, but... the art department at a company my friend works for recently bought a dual-proc G4. No, wait, stop laughing, I haven't reached the punchline yet. The joke is that it's running... wait for it... MacOS 9! Yep, all the second CPU s doing is keeping the first warm and cozy. :-) The machine cost $4k, so I hope they at least buy OS X when it is released so that the nice hardware won't go to waste. MacOS X will make Linux PPC on Macs obselete, by the way. It's BSD Unix with MacOS's multimedia capabilities, which even I would be willing to pay for.
Anyway, this "news" pales in comparison the the story about Windows 2000 booting on G4s. But I'll take my NT zealotry elsewhere...
All generalizations are false.
Re:I don't understand why Apple used titanium (Score:3)
Second, the article you linked doesn't even compare "liquidmetal's" strength to titanium. It says it's "very strong and very hard," but not any more than another metal.
What it does say:
The fact that it's non-crystalline just means that a sample of liquidmetal is uniform, so it won't have a weak spot that fails before the rest of the sample.
It's unfortunate that universities now enter exclusive contracts, instead of publishing their findings to benefit everyone.
Finally, the golf clubs are over $400 each! If liquidmetal was so great, why aren't all golf clubs made of it now?
Linux: It's really sad... (Score:5)
This is obviously a troll. So is this:
Its really sad to see such a sweet machine crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons.
When the Slashdot editors insist on trolling on the front page, why do we expect to see rational commentary in the comments area? The recent Hooters link and other total crap posted on
Re:About the mouse... (Score:2)
Mozilla didn't render the preview pane right.
-Jeff
Re:G4 'book (Score:1)
Re:Back up the train (Score:1)
I do look forward to the UMA-2 in laptops, but my next purchase will probably be their 2nd rev of a G5 desktop; godwilling. (Perhaps I will get a UMA-3 laptop of one ever exists) The Ti is nice, and if I wasn't a student I would buy one and give my powerbook to a windows user. I need the G4, for I do some sick stuff with math that you'd slap me for. In the meantime, I will wear my apple proudly. Godspeed.
Re:Uh... (Score:1)
2???
Yes, two. The mac comes with one. X uses three. That leaves two to be emulated.
And FWIW, LinuxPPC did that out of the box for me. Now I have a four-button trackball, but I could still use emulation if I wanted to.
Re:Apple will die (Score:2)
You have many valid points and bitches. All of them infact, but some of them are a bit colored. I am a Mac user, but I'm not one of the blind Mac cultists who worship that ego monster Jobs.
I will admit that I was spellbound when Jobs came back as the leader of Apple while it was in its dying spasms, but that soon wore off when I saw that Jobs wasn't dragging Apple kicking and screaming past the cutting edge of technology. All he was doing was playing catch-up and putting it in a nice candy coating for all the candy ravers and people who wanted a computer that went with their choice of carpet and chairs.
Part of Apple's problems are from who they get their CPU's from, Motorola. Motorola needs to get the damn dust out of their clean rooms and start beefing up the Mhz of their chips, the PPC is a great little chip. The only drawback is the problems they are having with making them, IBM has made them faster. What did Motorola do? Got all pissy that IBM wasn't doing the dance their way, and threatened to take away their rights to make the chips. What Motorola should have done was copy IBM's fab system and get on with it.
Another part of Apple's problem is that the OS is half software and half hardware. In the beginning this was great, they could put the whole GUI on a 400k floppy and still have space for a program or two on the same disk. The programers knew it was there, they knew it wasn't going to change over night. The major drawback was that the programmers and hardware makers had to use it, they couldn't just whip up a driver or program for it they had to tie into the ROMs to get stuff to work. Even Apple had to make clever hacks to get their stuff to work with all their machines. The Mac is a hacker's nightmare/dream.
This is where OS X is suposed to come in. OS X is suposed to be completely free of the ROMs, but untill Apple can get it working on the hardware without the need for the ROMs OS 9 will still be around. When they finally do it, the Mac that only runs OS X (XI, XII etc) will forever be unlike the Mac that we all grew to love/hate/ignore.
For all the complaints of how much of a closed system it is and how hard it is to make into what you want it to do, I have seen so many clever hacks from hardware makers and even garage hardware hackers. I've seen so many people who spend hours hacking the latest cuecat or firbie or [insert closed hacker proof product] and yet most bitch about the Mac being a closed system and don't do any hacking on it. Sure it's expencive to replace if you screw up, but that should just make you more carefull about what you are doing. Any hardware hacker worth his salt should have atleast one cobbled together Mac that's not running the Mac OS, be it BeOS, Linux, or something of their own creation.
The PC isn't a Ford, its a freeking GM! The Mac isn't a Bently or any other luxury car. The Mac is a deisel Subaru that has a big wad of black epoxy poured into the engine compartment so that you can't get to it easily.
I have woken up, I don't like candy. Jobs has woken up also, he's just dragging his feet about it. From what I can tell, he knows that OS X is the last chance for Apple. He just doesn't want to let go of the whole kindom just yet. And that is his ego roaring.
I'm not blind, but I do have my fingers crossed.
LOL (Score:1)
Re:shut up about mouse buttons!!!! (Score:1)
Re:shut up about mouse buttons!!!! (Score:1)
Re:G4 'book (Score:1)
IRNI
SexCow Airlines [sexcowairlines.com]
G4 'book (Score:2)
Re:Design considerations (Score:1)
Ok, this is probably seriously off-topic, but the fact is that a lot of research going on around this. The experiments involve a car that has a combined gas- and breakpedal. To accelerate, you tilt your foot forward, and to slow down you ease up on the tilt. To break, you simply put the pedal to the metal, so to speak. The results are pretty amazing. Most people get used to this in no-time, and the range from full speed to stop decreases with several meters. Combine this with a Tiptronic/Sensonic transmission (basically a combination of a normal transmission and an automatic, which means all your 4/5/6 gears but no pedal) and you're there.
TrackPad (Score:2)
PS. www.goldenshower.gs
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
Re:shut up about mouse buttons!!!! (Score:1)
Because, we (I, at least) use two, sometimes 3 mouse buttons all the time.
Don't get me wrong, if I had the cash for a laptop, this would be the laptop of choice, and yes I'd get a USB mouse. This laptop would be my portable Music/Video studio (Propellerheads REASON + new G4 PB = Portable Music Studio!), but I find it disconcerning that after I pay $3K-$4K I have to spend another $50 to accomodate an engineering flaw.
Re:TrackPad (Score:1)
Re:I don't understand why Apple used titanium (Score:1)
Proper mouse buttons? (Score:1)
Bottom line is don't judge something improper just because it doesn't support your needs.
Re:TrackPad (Score:1)
The problem with using a USB mouse is that most laptops are used for business travel, and a mouse is not very convenient on an airplane tray. Maybe an external Logitech trackball would be nice for getting your extra buttons.
WINE (Score:1)
Re:Linux: It's really sad... (Score:1)
A word on trackpads and buttons (Score:2)
the honest truth is the trackpad is the best portable pointing device.
Tracballs work... trackpads are better.
nipples, they suck. Its the equivalent of using a finger joystick to steer your mouse.
I don't use a joystick to control my mouse on my desktop, why the hell would I do it on my laptop!
When I want to click some widget, I just think widget and before I know its clicked (mousing is autonomous to me
but with a nipple its like a mini racing game to steer the cursor, slow down, adjust and swirl around a few times...
Its just stupid.
Now.. about mousebuttons...
on a desktop, you just get a usb mouse you like... I actually had a triple button wonder until recently... I traded it in for the gelcap mouse
Love it... just apply pressure you click.... my left hand never leaves the keyboard, where it hovers on the left side... where all the modifier keys are
so we can choord a huge amoount of mouse clicks with the shift-ctrl-opt-cmd keys
but on a laptop its even better... the trackpad is between your right and left hands...
so your left hand is always on the keyboard in the touch type position, right moves between the trackpad and the keyboard... left can always pushing the cntrl key or cmd key or whatever to get how ever many keyclicks you want
So sure, you might not like it... but the single mousebutton is the right choice for the APPLE PowerBook G4 Titanium... and I'm sure you'll get use to cmd and cntrl clicking in linux very soon if you got one... but thats only when you're on the road...
when your on a desk... pull out your USB mouse of choice and plug it in... them MS optical mice work too
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Live Long & Prosper \\//_
CYA STUX =`B^) 'da Captain,
Logitech Trackman Marble, Re:TrackPad (Score:1)
It just takes some getting used to; the entire palm stays on the mouse when you use it. When using any other trackball, this is not the case. Unlike mice, your arm doesn't move either; just your thumb.
I only wish it came with 3to4+wheel buttons instead of 2+wheel.
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Re:Mouse Buttons and Trolls (Score:2)
What is this? (Score:3)
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
Re:G4 'book (Score:2)
treke
Final word on button count: (Score:2)
Three shall be the number of buttons thou shalt have, and the number of the buttons shall be three.
Four shalt thou not have, neither have thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.
Five is right out.
Re:Spread it around... (Score:2)
Spyky
Re:yes, and? (Score:2)
One good reason to use Linux on a Mac is if you happen to have a Mac that's not doing anything. A dual P3 machine might be cheap, but it's not cheaper than free. Dual-booting is also a good option, so you can get the MacOS for the stuff that needs it and an interface that doesn't drive you mad with frustration, and then you can boot into Linux for the neatness factor without needing another box.
Not exactly (Score:2)
Cheers,
--MD
--
Re:Linux: It's really sad... (Score:2)
The only bummer is that I had to map F12 as the middle click, since the extra ALT button next to the spare enter key generates the same keycode (at the OF level) as the main ALT key. Fortunately pasting is not so common that its a huge problem, but it makes using xfig a PITA.
Anyone know of a way to hack OF to make it generate different keycodes for the left and right ALT buttons? I know the ADB emulation happens there, so I'd bet its possible.
Re:What's really sad. (Score:2)
I agree. Mac OS X ships on March 24. Some people may prefer LinuxPPC, which is what this article is, oddly enough, about.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
Re:yes, and? (Score:2)
Depends on what he's doing on OS9. Besides Photoshop (which is the poster boy) some apps do take advantage of the dual CPUs for encoding and video rendering and such. The point is that the second CPU only adds an additionl $300 or so to overall cost, and OSX (out March 24) will make proper use of it. Might as well toss it in.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
enough with the mouse buttons! (Score:4)
yeah yeah yeah, Macs only have one mouse button: big deal. sure it's a pain in the ass if you're using Linux, but the MacOS (including MacOS X) is designed to operate effectively with only one mouse button.
i hated it at first too, so when i bought my first Mac a few years ago (after using Linux and Windows exclusively) i ran out and bought a 3-button mouse. i found however, that after using the MacOS for a while you start to realize that if things are designed with a 1-button mouse in mind, using the standard apple mouse actually made things more convenient. to this day i have two mice plugged into my computer: the standard Apple mouse and a 4-button scroll mouse. i use the 1-button mouse the most, as it's just so much more convenient (and easier on the carpal tunnel) to just click one mouse button, esecially when i'm using photoshop or illustrator. in fact, the only time i use the 4-button mouse is when i'm web browsing as it's got the scroll wheel and the metakey-click combinations map to convenient functions in IE 5.0.
so in closing quit your bitching. it's been discussed here before that if you want to run Linux, you should be using an x86 anyhow. if you're buying a Mac, you'll probably want to (eventually) run OS X, and it works perfectly well with only one button. you can still of course attach an external x-button USB mouse, but again, i find that using the one button is pefectly convient the majority of the time. it's certainly no reason dismiss the Titanium Powerbook G4.
- j
Re:Uh... (Score:3)
It would be REALLY nice to be able to take advantage of the Apple hardware without feeling like a second hand mouse user. Some people use their mice a lot. Some people use their keyboard a lot. You, apparently, are one of the latter. Good for you.
But the ergonomic benefits of actually having an intrinsic 3 button mouse should not be lost. I have two buttons on my HP Omnibook, and I REALLY REALLY wish it had three. In fact, so much so that I was willing to pay a little more for three buttons. Unfortunately, I wasn't willing to pony up for a Thinkpad, which is the only real option given my other constraints.
So take it easy on someone who actually appreciates having three buttons on the dern laptop. It could be a benefit, despite the fact that you live happily without it.
It's really sad to see the poster of an article so poorly informed, and such is often the case with Mr.Taco's posts.
An ad hominem attack is poor taste. Say something meaningful. Don't troll.
Re:Spread it around... (Score:2)
Re:Accelerating the G4? (Score:2)
A logical measurement system would use universal fundamental physical constants to define units, like the Planck distance (length) and Planck interval (time), the electron volt (charge), etc. And base 12 would be a superior choice for the base, since it is evenly divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6, instead of just 2 and 5.
Re:Interesting but... (Score:2)
It's hard to say until OSX goes GM, but in the end, the raw speed difference will probably be somewhat insignifcant compared to the functionality comparison.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
Re:Linux: It's really sad... (Score:3)
Eh, unlike the point about mouse buttons, which is a troll, the one about linux's GUI is more or less true.
In truth, the interface part of the GUI is great. I live for using Gnome - I love the way I can put so much customization into the way I can have the stuff laid out on my screen. The only thing it compares to in my mind is some plugins for MacOS. And KDE ain't so bad, either.
But the krap that's running under it just pisses me off. OK, one thing I love X for is XDM. I can feel right at home even in a computer lab across campus. And I understand the need for a certain level of abstraction that creates issues when I'm working remotely like that. But why the hell do I have to deal with it when I'm sitting right in front of the damn box? Why can't stuff that is standard on other GUI's be standard on X too, rather than added features that are a pain to patch into the whole system?
and I'm not going to even start on getting an X server set up. . .
"Apple is dead" is dead (Score:2)
If all you care about is price, then yes. Go buy a eMachines or Dell. Though, if you can get past your preconceptions and actually figure out that there are advantages to Apple's approach to product development, then you may find yourself on the other side of the argument.
G4 performance is, at worst, reasonably competitive with x86; and at best, actually quite a bit faster in some situations. Though, I know a lot of people just refuse to believe that clock speed could actually be an inaccurate measurement of overall system performance this day and age.
At some point the Apple PR machine will run out of shit and the lie will be exposed for all to see.
Have you actually used OSX yet?
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
Re:Hmm... X running on this? (Score:2)
Re:I don't understand why Apple used titanium (OT) (Score:3)
Anyway, that said, just because a new material makes a good golf club doesn't make it a good choice for a laptop enclosure. The primary advantage of the amorphous metals (LiquidMetal is a trade name) in golf clubs is their ability to store elastic energy. The alloys themselves are denser than titanium (translation => heavier laptop), these alloys are more expensive than titanium, and there is the problem of beryllium being toxic. Plus, titanium forms a protective oxide that makes it corrosion resistant, whereas beryllium oxide is even more toxic than beryllium metal. The fact that beryllium is toxic is really the killer. Even though you would have to grind the case up and inhale it for it to kill you (eventually, mabye 10-20 years down the road), the public perception that it is toxic would cause serious problems for Apple.
--
Re:Apple will die (Score:3)
I suppose... but only in the way that Earth is the last chance for humanity.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
Hold out! There is hope! (Score:3)
Re:Spread it around... (Score:2)
Re:yes, and? (Score:2)
That would be true if we were talking about desktop machines. The topic here is notebooks. I think a lot of Linux users perceive, rightly or wrongly, that Intel notebooks have poor battery life as a result of all the transistors doing backwards-compatibility things so everyone's favorite obsolete OS can keep working. Thus the interest in RISC notebooks.
I doubt that. If I bought a Powerbook to run Linux on, I would have little interest in MacOS X. No matter what great features it has, it's proprietary and tied in to the Apple mindset, which I don't like. I wish Apple all the best in marketing Os X to their core market, but they know and I know that it's not aimed at Unix geeks.
Re:How often do you even use the mouse?! (Score:2)
Re:Linux: It's really sad... (Score:4)
So there you have your reason. Whether or not you agree with it (I don't) is up to you.
-
-Be a man. Insult me without using an AC.
PC133 RAM (Score:2)
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Re: (Score:2)
Re:TrackPad (Score:2)
I've never done this myself, but the only thing I've seen that might compare to/surpass a mouse is a tablet/pen combination. Might even be more intuitive for an inexperienced user, since they've been (presumably) using pens already...
--
Re:Mouse Buttons and Trolls (Score:2)
Yes, but what does that have to do with having a right button available?
Look, on a modern automatic-transmission car, only park, reverse, and (over)drive are used by 90% of the people. The other options are still there, and we don't hear people whining about them. There are a dozen buttons on my blender, and I don't understand what eight of them do, but I don't hear anybody claiming that blenders are overly complicated devices. Only a tiny subsset of the vocabulary of most languages is used by the vast majority of the people, but nobody's calling on the Academie Francaise to eliminate 90% of the French vocabulary.
The problem of HCI is that people expect to use electronic devices without spending time learning to operate it, when they wouldn't dream of making such demands of mechanical devices. It's ludicrous, and should be viewed as such.
Now, yes, my various blender buttons are consistent in how they act, and that's an appropriate goal of HCI -- to provide consistency. But consistency is not an antonym of complexity, and HCI that operates on that assumption is inherently flawed.
This notebook is the shit! (Score:3)
I never thought I'd see the day that a machine outclassed the Sony Vaio .. this thing blows it away. I want one, bad.. this machine kicks some serious ass. 1GB of ram? eeek!
All we need is for some big Linux sugardaddy *cough* RedHat *cough* *cough* to pick up LinuxPPC and make this line of notebooks fully supported under Linux.. That would be sweet. It'd be nice if they did the same for something like the Apple G4 also, and then brokered getting hardware drivers set up and whatnot - that'd give Linux a "home" architecture to work from, and allow you to fully exploit the capabilities of the hardware.
Oh well, I can dream.. damn, I want one of those though :). Match a titanium PDA case from Rhinoskin [rhinoskin.com] really nice, too.
You know, I wonder about you... (Score:2)
It smokes the Pentium IV by about 33% for processor intensive tasks.
You just don't want to admit that I'm gonna look SO-O COOOL whipping one out and watching a DVD with your girl at a Linux Expo while you lug around a lame-ass Vaio and a well thumber copy of Hustler...
From what I remember of the Sun 'luggable' some salesman hauled to my office, it had longer battery life because it was only used to run the clock. The guy had power adaptors for every friggin' continent 'cause the second thing he asked for was the nearest power plug.
The joy of reading this article (Score:2)
Try and tell me that ain't ergonomic, all ya HCI eggheads.
--
Re:TrackPad (Score:3)
Not only does it feel right, it's symmetrical, so you don't have to worry about which hand to use.
Re:shut up about mouse buttons!!!! (Score:4)
well, the mice that ship with macs are now are nice, oval-shaped, "no button" laser mice.... the only reason i upgraded to 2.4.0 on my laptop was to use the damn thing.... of course gnome heartily subscribes to the "keyboard on wheels" theory of mice, so it's useless... oh well...
here's the deal: the mouse is a pointing device, not a mini-keyboard. If people want "added functionality" with extra buttons and levers and foot-pedals etc that's fine, but we should remember that that's supposed to be added functionality... as in "extra." The fact that most operating systems now can't be operated unless you have a 3-button frankenmouse shows a screwed up sense of design. Take windows up until fairly recently: files would get their names truncated at 8 characters all the time, but the os could support a mouse with 9 buttons, 3 wheels a lever and a trigger. It's all about adding needless complexity and calling it innovation.
About the mouse... (Score:2)
Complain to me when Linux can copy and paste. (Score:3)
Be sure and let me know when Linux has a simple GUI where every app can do the simple task of copy and paste among them - twenty-year-old technology by most standards. Every time I copy text in one app, paste in another, and see nothing, I roll my eyes and shake my head. And this with the very latest bleeding-edgest GNOME/Sawfish/Enlightenment/whatever.
Maybe if the Linux world only had one mouse button to worry about, it could get it right. Then add more buttons once the first one works.
Maybe OSX is scaring the shit out of Linux partisans because it's going to put the world's most advanced GUI on top of a rock-solid kernel, which the Linux world has never managed to even come close to?
Sheesh.
TomatoMan
I don't understand why Apple used titanium (Score:2)
Re:Proper mouse buttons? (Score:2)
If the original mice had printed something (like "menu" or "right" or anything) on the buttons, I don't think there would be any argument today and there would be multi-button mice.
Re:Design considerations (Score:2)
You can still do both. It is still possible to tilt your foot while pushing it forward, right?! (At least, I know *I* can do so.)
Oh, and as for your point, you can do a LOT with a racing-car that you can't do with an ordinary car. It's all a question about striking a proper balance between the level of complication and the level of maximum prestanda. In most cases the average user rather wants ease of use.
Solution to one-button mouse "problem" is simple. (Score:4)
Buy a USB three-button mouse.
Plug it in.
You may have to run mouseconfig or something like that to get it to see all three buttons.
And enjoy.
Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.
Re:for the record (Score:2)
--Shoeboy
No surprise... (Score:2)
Now, what's more impressive is that it also boots on a non-upgraded Power Mac 7300, thanks to the instructions found [162.33.142.182]at StepWise [stepwise.com]. Even runs pretty quick, too.
Besides, who needs more than one mouse button anyway?
--
There is more then one PowerPC distribution (Score:2)
All of the distributions that run on PowerPC use the same Linux kernel, thus all distributions which run on PowerPC will also run on this new machine.
Just a few other GNU/Linux distributions which run on PowerPC hardware including this PowerBook:
Debian [debian.org]
SuSE [suse.com]
YellowDog [yellowdoglinux.com]
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Re:Linux: It's really sad... (Score:3)
a) Get a 3-button USB mouse. It's fully supported.
b) Map control-click and command-click to buttons 2 and 3.
c) Use the CLUI, like a real man
Giving away CDs == good. (Score:2)
Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.
Re:'normal linux' on the same hardware... (Score:2)
MKLinux supports a large number of PCI powermacs, most of which also support LinuxPPC. In addition, there are now patches to let you run the standard kernel on nubus machines - see http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net].
Re:Linux: It's really sad... (Score:2)
Calm down! (Score:3)
MacOS is designed for one button
Windows is designed for two buttons
X is designed for three buttons
The point is that someone buying a Powerbook intending to run Linux and hence X on it would find it nicer to have 3 buttons; but since Apple expect people to be running MAcOS they only put one button on the thinkpad.
I'm not sure what is so extraordinary about this. I mean, my Dell Lattitude has the same problem; Dell expect me to be running Windows on it so the trackpad only has 2 buttons.
Look at the positive side - at least you have the possibility of changing Linux so it supports less buttons (as indeed Emulate3Buttons does on my Dell. Try running Windows on a single-button mouse and see how far you get.
shut up about mouse buttons!!!! (Score:4)
holy cow, everytime the word apple is even breathed in passing someone (hundreds of someone's actually) bleat off about the mouse button count... honest to god, i am starting to get sick of it.
1. plug in a mouse in the usb port in the back. 2.4.0 supports usb quite nicely (osx does as well, wink wink)
2. start a group on sourceforge to "fix" gnome to actually be functional with one mouse button.
sheesh
flame if you must
Spread it around... (Score:4)
I love seeing otherwise intelligent commentators pumping a dry well. CmdrTaco, Apple seems completely unphased by your assault on it's supply of mouse-buttons. If that's the only resource that comes up short in your assesment of the new Apple HW, then I guess that's the kind of shortage we can live with. Microsoft itself has found that only 10% of users even use a right click AT ALL, EVER. Such a biting condemnation from a community that devotes space to such earth-shttering topics as hacking the Furby...
I guess you don't know how to use a modifier key? Ctl-click for contextual menus too complex a sequence for you to remember?
I admire the rest of the comments about Mac acceleration (newtonian, not processor), alternate booting sequences (the leather kind, not the startup kind), and the endless litany of lame jokes that reaveal that the Open-Source movement and the Slashdot crowd aren't above their own sort of bigotry. Why did you even post the story and link unless it was to offer a punching bag to the trolls? Are you just jealous that OSX is gonna do more to bring *nix to the masses than your 6+ years of obscure forum posting and mutual masturbation have? Can't bring yourself to admit that cool and stylish counts to some folks?
I look forward to being moderated down as flamebait. That seems to be the only way the moderators can respond to a true reflection.
How often do you even use the mouse?! (Score:2)
Re:TrackPad (Score:2)
A few days ago, I just went out and bought myself a Logitech optical mouse. Pretty much identical in funcionality to the M$ IntelliMouse it replaced, except optical To be brief, I love it and can't believe I shunned optical mice for so long.
But you really enlightened me on the surface issue. I've only had this thing for a few days (likely will buy another for a laptop) so I haven't done much experimenting on it. Therefore, the idea of using the mouse on a non-flat or soft surface seemed like crap... until about a minute ago, I tried using my optical mouse *on my lap* and it worked great! Thanks for the tip! Now I'm *definitely buying another for my laptop.
Uh... (Score:5)
Re:enough with the mouse buttons! (Score:2)
Aside from the mouse button "debate", I'd be curious to know what /. readers thought about the differing approaches GUI mouse operation in *nix/MacOS/Windows.
i'd like to see a discussion of this as well: of course, this is completely off-topic for this story. perhaps in a future article.
just a quick note: one of the things i really like about the MacOS is that the pull-down menus are at the top of the screen. as mentioned in your link, this can be accessed "at least five times faster" than an equivalent Windows (or Linux) pull-down menu that's attached to the top of the window. it's also convenient to be able to tell which program is in the forground by looking at the name in the titlebar.
but yes, it deserves a full discussion sometime :). btw: thanks for the link!
- j
"News" (Score:2)
Slashdot
For Nerds. Stuff that matters.
No more "News" for Nerds, no way.
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Re:Complain to me when Linux can copy and paste. (Score:2)
Using a pretty much stock RH 6.2 install (with whatever updates were available from the RH updates directory), I had no problem copying and pasting between a gnome terminal window and Netscape (4.76, again installed from the RH 6.2 update directory). The process was:
Go to terminal window. Type in a URL.
Highlight URL with by dragging across it with left mouse button.
Switch to Netscape. Middle-click in URL field to paste.
Go to a different site in Netscape. Highlight new URL with left button drag.
Switch back to terminal window. Paste with middle button.
However, most of what I do in Linux is done with text consoles. I've never had a problem with gpm copying-and-pasting (I even used it for the quoted text at the top of this posting), other than the issue of text sometimes scrolling while I'm trying to copy it (it'd be nice if gpm auto-scroll locked; hell, it might even be a feature already in it that I've been too lazy to discover). It also uses the same left-drag to select, middle-click to paste as mentioned aboved, which adds some nice continuity for when I occasionally have to switch to X to go to a site that's lynx-unfriendly.
Re:Spread it around... (Score:2)
Easy, we're all on the same side here for the most part.
I'm as big an Apple supporter as anyone, but I think you went a bit overboard. A lot of people would like to see two button mice on Macs -- including something people inside Apple, apparently, as OSX's contextual menus do work with the right mouse button on most USB mice.
- Scott
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Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
Re:TrackPad (Score:3)
A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I wanted a Logitech Trackman marble. It just looked damn cool and seemed like it would be much funner than a mouse to use. But luckily I tried one before I bought one, and was sadly disappointed at how awkward it was in comparison to a mouse. Well, that and I was just getting good at Quake at the time...
Mice, to me, still seem like a kludgy and hacky implementation of a pointing device. But I guess I can't bitch too much since they do their job and I haven't invented anything better.
Re:Proper mouse buttons? (Score:2)
Some examples for you:
- My Grandfather. Trying to get a 92 year old man to understand what the second mouse button does is near impossible. Because of his poor motor skills, he reguarly hits the wrong mouse button. This is frustrating both for him and myself because I have to explain why the computer didn't do what he thought he told it to do.
- My Father. He hates computers and basically just uses them for his eMail. He doesn't use contextual menus nor does he care to. For him, two mouse buttons is one too many.
- My Nephew. Sure he'll learn, and probably appreciate the extra mouse button, but right now it just complicates things for him.
There are people out there who only want one mouse button. In fact, the majority of people out there with two only use the one anyway. (This of course excludes /. users.)
Don't forget the audience for which Apple targets their computers. For those people, one mouse button is exactly what they need.
The point is that, in the context of using X, one mouse button is just not cutting it.
Don't forget that MacOSX is designed to be used with one mouse button. It supports additional buttons but no programs out there require any additional buttons - they work great with only one. Now if you're talking about XWindows then that's a different story. But don't forget, OSX and XWindows both target different audiences.
Willy
They haven't tested ethernet yet? (Score:2)
However, since they have overlooked this, I will be happy to test it for them, simply send me a G4 powerbook and I'll test every ethernet module in existince.
Re:Apple will die (Score:3)
The entire move to Mac OS X is based on practicality. The ability to run BSD applications is finally going to kill the 'not enough apps' argument because somewhere in Cupertino, is somebody porting WINE to OS X. Right next door is the group that is taking all the open source standard bearers and creating automated ways of taking the code and wrapping a Mac OS X compliant interface on them.
As for their hardware designs, what is impractical about a 5 hour battery life? Or does 5.3 pounds in a notebook strike you as too flighty? Is adding a PCI slot to their desktop line and upping their bus speed to 133Mhz something that is a problem for you?
Apple may occasionally come out with something like their twentieth century machine or the cube but, on average, they have a higher percentage of hits per design risk than most other computer companies. This is partly because so much of the industry is made up of commoditized herd followers.
Whenever you innovate, you are going to have your share of duds and your share of hits. Apple's salvation is keeping the ratio of hits to duds as high as possible. These new machines are likely to further that goal.
DB
Come on... you call yourself a hacker. (Score:3)
In other words, why are all these people so willing to work around the limitations of commercially available hardware unless it has an Apple logo on it?
Re:G4 'book (Score:2)
However, Mac OS X does have built-in support for multi-button mice, for example, the right button brings up contextual menus. This is the best approach in my opinion; there is nothing that cannot be done with a one-button mouse, but multi-button mice are fully supported for more experienced users.
Unix in OSX (Score:4)
I don't know what this means, exactly. OSX hides things like
You should also get up to speed on the differences between Mac OS X [apple.com] (shipping in March) and the new version of Mac OS X Server [apple.com] (shipping April/May). They are from the same codebase, and are considerably different that Mac OS X Server 1.2 (essentially Rhapsody), which is currently available.
Bringing "Unix to the masses" isn't going to consist of expecting everyone to become comfortable with
This thing also runs on Mach, which is SLOW. (MKlinux anyone?)
There is a big difference in between MkLinux and Darwin.
- Scott
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Scott Stevenson
WildTofu [wildtofu.com]
Re:Please rename "Apple" topic to "Flamebait" (Score:2)
Though, we should add this to the comment filters.
Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
Linux on Mac - Just as usable as x86 (Score:3)
Mice - the Linux kernel naturally supports 3 button mice. 2 button is usable, 3 is great. in the proper environment, a single button is still valid, though in general, a PC user is just to used too multi-button to even try single button for more than 5 minutes. Now, since Linux knows what a 3 button mouse is, all you need is drivers that do those buttons right. Guess what... they're already there. the Kensington Thinking mouse (4 button) has support for the three standard buttons. 4th, who knows. hack in support if you like clickers and it isn't already there. As for powerbooks, of which I own one (a "PDQ"), there are ways of emulating two or three buttons. This can be done using meta-click combos, or keys, like what I use, F11/F12. no problem. As for USB, Linux/PPC had decent usable USB support a couple stable kernels before x86 had rudimentary USB support, including the "new input layer" and all the normal USB. Conclusion: the only gripe about buttons one can have is that multi-'s aren't standard included, and in the case of a powerbook, because its built in, you suddenly feel obligated to use complicated finger combos, or as with mine, two handed...
"Proprietary" chipsets: some chips in the mac are similar to x86, like the USB controller, and are fairly well supported accross x86 and ppc in parallel. Firewire support is coming along, and most other features tend to be well supported within maybe 6 months of their release, often with little help from Apple. ATI did work with Ben Herrenschmidt on an issue that came up, and I commend them on taking that initiative. There also tend to be endian issues here and there, like in pcmcia (which works fairly well) and video. x86 have a habit of looking the other way.
Looking at Apple's released specs, the block diagram looks similar to the iBook and Cube, in that it has the core IO board "KeyLargo" and other ASICs are similar. just a matter of time before this bad boy works perfectly.
Basically, in terms of hardware support, the only thing hindering the Linux/PPC crowd is that it isn't trendy enough that things go quickly, and there is also the fact that Linus is quite obviously x86-biased. Binary-only distribution of programs also tend to hurt usability, if you go for those sorts. MTVp is still antique and unsupported, and since the open-sourcing, OpenOffice has been coming along, but is not quite there yet. (No, OpenOffice doesn't just compile on linux/ppc straight. It is to be considered a port, as it is taking that sort of effort to get it there)
I think the next big step in linux/ppc's development is user support. i've noticed small annoying issues that nobody addresses. User support is growing, now thanks to new stable distributions like Suse, Debian, etc, and the continued improving efforts of LinuxPPC Inc. and TerraSoft. But we have a way to go yet before it stays on par consistant with x86.
my $.02
(Using Linux 4 years, converted from PC to Mac hardware 2 years ago.)
Re:Back up the train (Score:2)
I got my Pismo in March too, so I figure getting 18-24 months out of it is a good deal (I kind of like the BatBook shape better anyway).
Love the groundhog pic on your site, BTW.
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Re:I don't understand why Apple used titanium (Score:2)
Just because it makes a good golf club doesn't mean it would make a good laptop enclosure. I bet it's expensive too -- it's got beryllium in it, and that isn't cheap.