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Apple Businesses

Eliminating Notebook Keyboards 224

Posted by Hemos from the better-be-better-than-graffeti dept.
Wordman writes "A story on Yahoo indicates that Apple (working with Wacom) has plans to provide pen-based computing in place of/in addition to keyboard input on future power books. The story quotes an unnamed source saying "The idea is to do away with the keyboard." The scheme would include the handwriting recognition system from Newton OS 2.x (which, contrary to popular rumors, is excellent). The "erase" abiliy of Wacom tablets would also be supported." I dunno - I really do find a keyboard a wonderful way to get things done - better than my handwriting, that's for sure. Thanks to Matthew for pointing out the original article at ZD-Net.
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Eliminating Notebook Keyboards More

Eliminating Notebook Keyboards

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  • Get a Psion MX5 or Ericsson MC218 - they do both keyboard and writing...
  • This would not be a good idea in my mind. A lot of creative types prefer the powerbook to any x86 offering, and not having a keyboard is going to slow their productivity. Unless there is some super effective voice recognition software that Apple has not told us about, this concept will fail.

    I know a lot of people that could never consider a non-keyboard laptop. Who ever heard of writing 60 words per minute...or more? 60's just how fast I type. I've seen good typists go to 180 wpm. There's no possible way to get that with a stylus...

  • Take the mouse away and you destroy the next big market that is First-Person-Shooters-on-Laptops. Same goes for keyboards, of course. I can't imagine running around and shooting by drawing lines on a touch screen or digitizer. Give me direct neural access and we can talk about trashing mice and keyboards, but no sooner.
  • Uhh...no offense, but this seems muddled. First you say that they didn't have typing classes.

    Yes. No. Uh Huh... :-) And, no offence to Dictator For Life, but exactly, muddled. It's been a real experiance to start reading SlashDot again lately.

    I guess, in a way, I've forgot what things can be like here, and I forgot the rules of SlashDot (and, actually, they are just carryovers from UseNet).

    • Never just type the thoughts in your head, they feed the trolls.
      • If you throw out a bad idea, someone will make you regret even saying a word.
      • If you are not crystal clear about what your saying, someone will take it out of your intent, and define a phrase to mean something other than what the premise of your statement truely was.
    • Flame wars WILL start at the drop of a hat, cover your ass in every way, including spee^Hlling.
    • Follow the mob mentality, going against the grain is pointless, and even more dangerous if your points are valid and based in fact (it will only lead to more argument.
    • Better to lurk and learn than post, unless you have something truely profound to say.
    • Never post FIRST or LAST, blend into the croud. Early posts are disreguarded as meaningless "first post" attempts, even if they have true content. Late posts spew onto the second or third page, and never get read.
    Of course, there are more details, but... Ya know what I mean. Lessons can be learned from the mistakes of even the most high profile posters. Take all the good BP has done for Linux and Debain. Look at how not following the SlashDot unwritten rules as suckered even him into comming off as a "bad guy" or "idiot" when in fact he really has done a lot of good for the community. All the good was washed away in a heartbeat by gut level reactions, mud slinging, and flames... I think it's happened to PV also, and he is fairly silent now days as well.

    I think you would be lucky to ever get anyone like Bob Young to comment on SlashDot EVERY for these exact reasons. Dispite how cool (IMHO) it would be to have a forum where EVERYONE can just voice an opinion, and DISCUSS ideas, it will never happen. When a nobody like me has a hard time bouncing ideas off people, could you even imagine how insane people would get if someone who is actually important to the Linux community would get harassed publically? Every little off the cuff word would go down as the one and only opinion of that person. They would be held to those words, and never be able to live them down. Think... "Yea, maybe we will consider working with the Debian guys on a joint packaging format, taking the best of .rpm and .deb for something better." Great idea, but, we have created a forum where these ideas can NOT be voiced. Why? Because people read WAY too much into every word these people say... if it didn't work, the person is a failure. If it's a bad idea, the person is perminately labeled an idiot. If it shows any promise, the community will push relentlessly for results.

    All these are reasons that the LSB was not making it "easy" to see where they were going with ideas. All these reasons are why the Debian "private" mailing list even existed. All these reasons are why no one knows how closely KDE and Gnome developers REALLY work together....

    Sad social side effect of "open-ness" is that the trolls DO get a lot of attention. When in reality, NO ONE should have to DEFEND thier ideas, they should be openly and warmly accepted. Good or bad, any idea is better than no discussion of ideas. But, the reality of places like SlashDot (and in the old days UseNet) is that, like in much of life, it's easier to criticize than create. It's easier to tear down than to build. So, why try when your efforts are only going to get sand kicked in your face.

    That's why people like Espy were TRUELY great. They managed to walk that fine line of maintaining his creative disposition, working hard at something cool, and never letting the fear of criticism stop him from doing something to benifit the Open Source community. We need more people like that.

    Yea, I was muddled. I repeat, Yes, Dictator For Life is correct, my post is muddled. I just read an article, said to myself WTF, your going to have to PRY the keyboard out of my hands before you get me to use a tablet on a laptop! and I sprawled out a few unclear lines.

    My meaning was that the importance, acceptance, and widespread promotion of teaching the skills of touch typing had faded for some years after approximately the 1950's. And the importance of teaching touch typing has regained an important place in American society with the widespread use of computers and the internet, growing rapidly during the 1990's and continuing today.

    Younger people today generally type a great deal more than those between 35 and 55 years old. Therefore it seems to me that this product would appeal more significantly to those in the older age bracket.

    So, I think I'll probably take this as my que to again drop back into obscurity, and not post to Slashdot for another year or so (as long as it takes me to forget that I shouldn't, and make the same mistake again).

    Yes, I expect a flury of flames to follow this post. Have Fun.

  • Pen input is a lot slower than keyboard input. I have a Wacom tablet which I use all the time for drawing, but it's much slower than the keyboard for the web or (especially) typing/programming.

    What I WOULD like to see is a phantom keyboard.. a touch sensitive (or proximity-sensitive) overlay on the screen which would fade away when your hands weren't near it. It would also be kind of cool if you could type in the air (holograms) or on a nearby surface, but I think most of us would probably need the tactile feedback.

  • Lots of people are raising issues, like "I won't be able to do CAD or Fluid Dynamics calculations or write kernel patches, if I don't have a keyboard!"

    People... this is a laptop! Not the desktop. Most people I know only get a laptop after they have a non-mobile workstation they're happy with. (A few students, maybe, are unable to afford both and decide for the portability. Avoid a keyboardless laptop, if this means you.)

    Plug a keyboard in the side if you need to type directly, or hot-synch it with your desk machine. Use it as you would use a clipboard. Collect data in the field. Browse the w^4 [wireless world-wide web]. Use it to preview your digital camera's results.

    For the occasional passphrase or a few longhand commands, bring up a half-screen touch-sensitive keyboard, just like the tiny ones available on smaller devices.

    Personally, I don't believe in "wrist rests" lining the keyboard, and most of today's laptops put the pointing device (pad, ball, nub) near the thumbs. I'd rejoice if I could return to laptop designs that delete that extra two inches. I'd like a flip-cover instead of a keyboard, or a case-hardened screen that didn't even need a flip-cover, most of all.

  • I highly doubt that Apple is making a keyboardless PowerBook... wouldn't that be like the rebirth of the Newton? Apple would be kicking theirselves in the balls if they did that, first it would completely fuck up their relationship with Palm, and second it would be a HUGE embarrassment to Apple, the industry would laugh! Now, the ONLY thing i can think that Apple is doing along the lines of keyboardless computing would be a web pad. Like a screen that you could carry around that you could surf the net while watching TV or on the toliet (It could be used with AirPort). It would make sense since they have a hole in their product matrix. I think the question you sould be asking yourself should be: What would be the portable version of the G4 Cube? (Web pad?)
  • As someone with experience in this field (I worked at GRiD Systems with Jeff Hawkins before he went to Palm), I can say that no matter how fast or how accurate the handwriting recognition, it is an order of magnitude slower than a keyboard. When I was at GRiD I worked on numerous laptops with built-in digitizing tables behind the display like what Apple is describing.

    This type of interface has only limited usage for real computing. For PDAs, it's fine, but for real work (i.e. word processing, etc.) it is terrible. While at GRiD we focused on certain vertical markets where handwriting was a benifit. Basically the software would contain the equivilent of paper forms which the user could fill out. The idea was to minimize the amount one would have to write.

    Besides, handwriting recognition is horribly difficult to decode. Think about trying to distinguish between a n'n' and an 'r', for example, or an 'a' and a 'd'. The main reason Jeff Hawkins developed grafitti was to make it far easier to decode the letters. He tried to push it at GRiD, but they weren't interested. GRiD is now nowhere to be seen.
  • I think carrying around an external keyboard AND a laptop computer is bit cumbersome, to say the least. Laptops are supposed to have everything integrated into them so you don't absolutely need an external device, like a keyboard or mouse. If you're going to have lots of stuff plugged into them, get a desktop.

    We aren't luddites that complain whenever someone comes up with a new idea. We are Slashdotters who complain whenever someone comes up with a bad idea. There are few here who are so closed-minded to think that anything new sucks.

  • Ralph: "Me fail english? That's unpossible!"
  • The keyboard is the wrong place to put a device to be written on. That device needs to go on top of the LCD display where the writing being done is very directly placed where it belongs, instead of having to look one place and wave your hand around in the other. Besides, how are you gonna hit ctrl-alt-delete or ctrl-alt-escape or whatever the die-now key combination is for a mac without a keyboard? Shit breaks, and cycling the power is very often not necessary

  • Simple observations from experience. (Score:3)

    by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @04:05PM (#899309)
    1) The Newton's handwriging recognition is the coolest thing I've ever seen. It's excellent.
    2) Pen based computers can be really cool.. and do a great many things for you.. in many ways, being better than a computer.

    3) A laptop, however, is not what I have in mind.
    I bought a laptop so I could do the *same* things I do on my desktop while on the road. I can play games, code, do everything.. I *want* a keyboard.

    From a tablet, portable application point of view, pen-based is great.

  • Actually, when you think about it... you have a computer without a floppy (apple), a mouse with no buttons (apple) and now a laptop without a keyboard (apple)... what's next, a computerless computer? :)

    On the real though, I see them coming out with a really kick ass wearable.

  • from 2F05, Lisa on Ice [snpp.org]

  • The problem with writing on a computer instead of typing on one is that of input speed. I can type almost at speaking speed, but I doubt that many people can do that without extensive use of short-hand. This is exactly why electronic-notepad-type computers (one panel, say 7x10 inches, with most of it being a touch-sensitive screen and maybe a spot to put the stylus) will never catch on -- I for one can take notes much faster on a keyoard than I can on paper, and I assume this is true for almost anyone who can type decently, just because making one letter on a keyboard involves exactly one motion with one finger. However, writing with a hand involves several motions with the whole wrist.
    Don't get me wrong, having a palm-pilot is great for quick notes-to-self and maybe keeping your passwords, but if something without a keyboard tries to become as functional as an operating system, it will most definitely not be better than a VAIO laptop.
    I think the days of Star Trek-style PADDs are very far off.
  • Actually, the latest PowerBook (and iBook) allow removal of just the keyboard (this is the accass means to the internal components).
    This would allow anyone so inclined to replace the keyboard with a rather large and functiol writing surface. Also with a keyboard installed, the trackpad area would still be available.
    I'd like to have something like this to jot notes and diagrams in meetings.
  • I do understand your point, I just don't think that such a device would be viable in today's market. Considering that one can purchase PDA's (read: Palm & Handspring) that cost only a couple of hundred dollars that can cover most tasks that I can think of that a device like this is suited to. I cannot see someone paying $1000+ for a large, fast processor, big hard drive, big viewscreen, etc.

    To counter your complaint about switching between mouse and keyboard, I think we would be better off pushing an easy to use one-handed keyboard. I believe there is such a device available on the commercial market. I do know that an F-16 pilot has such a device that can be used to type one-handed with his/her left hand and fly with the right hand. I think it may be difficult to master such a device, but prolly no more so than the qwerty keyboard.

  • This is a perfect troll. maks a valid point, but does it in such away as to provoke response.
  • Granted, for graphics programs this would be good, however, as usable as a sylus keyboard a la some handhelds, while allowing programs to function has some obvious problems. Keyboards are useful because you can type quickly on them, tapping with a pen device just isnt that fast... regardless of what your doing.

    This brings the issue of having an addon keyboard... all well and good but now you have something else to lug around... sure its not a major inconvinience but it still is a bother.

    I guess my main point is perhapse this is better suited to a graphics only product... a pad with LCD and photoshop and a 20 gig hard drive... that i can see, but having a laptop with touch key pad just doesn't appeal to me.
  • I'm sick of people using the name of "progress" to try to justify dictating what you can and can't do. Did we really need a GUI for DOS? Did we really need high-speed Internet access? No, and we don't need handwriting recognition either.

    Don't like the product? Then don't buy it. Steve Jobs may be an asshole, but he's not holding a gun to your head...

  • Maybe you want a webpad. Maybe you want to use it for portable photoshop. Maybe you want a portable machine the size of the LCD panel on a laptop.

    Maybe if you don't like it, you don't have to buy one, and you can just buy a different company's product, or even an Apple product which HAS a keyboard.

  • ... so how apple thinks they can get a computer to read my writing is beyond me. I've ALWAYS been shitty at writing... crabbed, cramped writing, sloppy, painful. But I type at 70wpm. No way I'm going to use a pentop. Hell... I TAP-TYPE faster than I write (on my Palm).

    Raven


    And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
  • I am real new to using Linux. I haven't even installed it yet. But does anyone know of any of thouse touchscreen monitor kits where you add on that extra screen that works with linux and one of those Graphical UIs for Linux. I have looked at a bunch but they seem to only be for Windows. :(
  • Um, the whole pen-based PC concept has been tried repeatedly and with very little success. Read Jerry Kaplan's book Startup [amazon.com] for the sordid tale of Go Corp., which came up with a whole new OS (PenPoint) and fell flat on its face, way back in 1993-95.

    I can't imagine why Apple would think it would succeed now.

    sulli

  • With a proper LCD touchscreen panel, is it feasable to create a virtual keyboard that you can type on?

    Implications: A laptop that folds out to reveal two such screens and no keyboard. A pad device that while typing is reminicent of the old Tandy100, but otherwise is a really good tablet/writing/watever pad computer.

  • And I think my point still stands. Advances in technology can make once impractical devices practical.

    I'll agree that writing is slower than typing, but only for those who can type. And most people can't type. But just because Go and the others failed is no reason to assume that pen based input will always fail.

    And as was pointed out, this is in addition to not in place of a keyboard. I can think of a number of applications where writing is the prefered input method. And while I can type faster than I can write when I am typing my thoughts, I can take notes much faster with a pen and paper in meetings or classes.

    Finally, I am a bit skeptical about your lack of pen use. I use pens all the time, for jotting notes, signing documents, giving out my phone number, email address, street address, and plenty of other things that don't make sense with a computer.

    Steve M

  • I agree that most of the posts are missing the point. I Have a Newton 120, on which the handwriting recognition is slow, and I still loved to use it. The ability to switch between writing a drawing instantly is invaluable to me. I use it all the time, and I have had it for about 4 years now!

    When I am in creative mode I love to be able to make a sketch and then write about it some more, and then modify the sketch etc. For this kind of work what I imagine this product would be, sounds invaluable. I would consider buying one, in ADDITION to my laptop. I am planning on buying a Newton 2000 off one of those auction sites in the near future because I love the handwriting recognition feature that much! don't knock it if you havn't tried it, which from reading a lot of the posts, most people haven't.

    Yes I type faster. And when I am coding I like to type. But when I am writing a letter, or doing some creative thinking I much prefer hand writing. There is something more wholesome about writing. Sometimes I even leave off the recognition on my Newton and print a letter to a friend long hand. They think it's neat, and appreciate the fact that I took the time to write it out. When I write by hand I tend to think more about what I am writing. (Something many of the /.ers could use a little more of!)

    /.ers need to broaden there horizons. Instead of thinking about how you wouldn't want to use such a product get creative, and try and think of ways that you would want to use it. What situations is it right for? Who is it right for? Get out of your "It's not exactly right for me so nobody will want it," frame of mind and into a "somebody who only has two fingers on each hand due to a terrible accident would really find this to be a life saver," mode of thinking. Be creative instead of critical. It will get you a lot farther.

    I for one think a product like this could revolutionize the way people think about computing, and in particular interfaces. Apple spawned the last huge interface change, and I think for the better. Maybe they are set to do it again!
  • Youthinkyouhaveprobl....ems??...I....actuallytypef aster...then...Icanthink.Quityourbitchin g...anddosomethingbe...tterwithyourtime.

  • Actually there was a group that made a partial working Analytical Engine. I don't have the reference handy but I do recall that it made the cover of Scientific American.

    And yes, no company would use that technology to make a computer. But that wasn't my point.

    My point was that advances in technology make once impractical devices practical. Leonardo DaVinci had designs for a helicopter. But with the technology of his day there was no way to make it work. Today we have better technology. And helicopters.

    And today we have computers.

    I don't know if Apple is even working on pen input or if they can pull it off. But they almost had it with the last Newton (although I have no direct experience with that device). But I see no reason to claim that just because a technology failed in the past it will fail forever (expect of course in those cases where some physical law is violated, thus no perpetual motion machines).

    I hope that they do pull it off, as I would weclome another input option.

    Steve M

  • Those geniuses had done better by putting the mouse away instead of the keyboard. I have never heard of anybody with a "keyboard arm", while the "mouse arm" is an official disease by now.

    When they'll have touch screen-like devices for this virtual keyboard of them, the mouse would probably disappear as well. But what I really don't understand is that such a usability inventor as Apple didn't drop the mouse for something better on their standard hardware long before. Instead actually, they're still proud that they made that brainless invention ppopular.

    A mouse is a silly and irritating input device, and I'd love to see it replaced with touch screens or pens or whatever other devices there are. We can't wait for Microsoft to invent that usability, for it has never been their job. Instead, we'll have to trust on Apple to change our view on computers again.

    But if it takes much longer than this I'll have a mouse arm myself.

    It's... It's...
  • Dammit, don't give me alternatives! Choices make my little head hurt!
  • Are you sure it was not this article

    Ada and the First Computer
    Eugene Eric Kim and Betty Alexandra Toole Augusta

    Ada King was countess of Lovelace and daughter to the poet Lord Byron. More important, as a mathematician, she extended Charles Babbage¼s work on his proposed Analytical Engine and published the rst in-depth paper on programming a computer.

    From The May 99 [sciam.com] issue as a snippet to this story? I think it was in the margin as a complimentary piece to an expose one of the world's first female programmers.
  • Wasn't the keyboard/typewriter invented specifically because it's faster and easier than writing sentences by hand?

    I can see this working if the primary use of the laptop is to make menu selections, or for short input. But basically you're looking at a Palm on steroids.

    If you will be using the laptop for business purposes, I'd think a keyboard would make it easier to write letters, create reports and fill in a spreadsheet.

  • No company would be foolish enough to try something like that now. Even though they did in the past.

    I have a feeling that some defence research people are working on using very small mechanical switches in place of transistors, the idea being that they wouldn't be so susceptible to an EMP.

  • I agree that NewtonOS never got credit for the improved off-the-shelf recognition in later versions of the product. (One such system had no trouble with my handwriting, and if it can handle mine...) However, I think people would have tolerated the early Newton's limitations better if the system as a whole had been better thought out and more reliable. Misrecognition is not so bad if you can correct it in a way that doesn't break your train of thought. And I never did get my Newton to recognize all my gestures. (I suspect that nobody but obsessed Newton fanatics every did.) Not to mention all the hardware problems!

    For me, the Newton's failure is summed up by the fact that nobody thought to tell the 1.0 model that punctuation characters are not part of the alphabet, but they did find time to plant dozens of silly easter eggs!

    I very much doubt if the Newton as such will come back. Why resurrect a dead OS when there are established OSs for the same application with thousands of developers who know how to use them? On the other hand, if the Newton recognition technology were ressurected in a MacOS tablet, my prejudice against that platform might go by the board.

  • Believe it or not, there are people who prefer [palmpower.com] a Palm to a desktop PC for word processing. I'm not one of them, but I often wish I had a portable device to replace the notebook I carry to meetings and such. I can type pretty fast, but I lack to mental multitasking it takes to manipulate a keyboard and carry on a conversation at the same time. So I need to use a paper pad or some metaphorical equivalent.

    My second biggest gripe about the Newton (the first was the sloppy/pretentious overall design) was that the it wasn't about 50% bigger.

  • What kind of dumb-arse retro computer crap is this Jobs guy up to anyway? The headline talks about notebooks with no keyboard, but then using handwriting instead. Not "choice of input device". Well, handwriting (designed for bird quills) is an obsolete transitional technology.
    If you're going to replace keyboard then you should go back to cuneiform! Yeah, that's the ticket. Provide a stylus and chisel, and have the user hammer patterns into the screen. Much nicer than scratching at a pad like a chicken with a goose feather caught in its foot.
  • I worry less about speed than about longevity (probably because I'm getting older really fast). And like Xerithane, I can type without pain much longer than I can write.

    While I can really imagine a tablet would be useful to me as a secondary choice -- after all, I still scribble on a legal pad sometimes, and it would be nice to capture that -- I would be concerned about the potential for aggravating RSI in myself and others. It's already a pretty serious problem for many, and you don't always know its going to strike you until its too late.

  • Ugh, this is horrid, and just another example of why I don't like apples software R&D department (there hardware department is nice though, great proccessors).

    I can write at about, err, a page per hour, a page per 90 minutes if I need it to be legible (begining to see why I perfer computers? heh:) but I can type up a page in about 20minutes (depending on difficulty of orignal thought, this is compleatly free-form here folks, no willy-nilly sissy copying stuff, I am talking about pure orignal thought!).

    At a pure typing speed I can probebly do a page in 10-15 minutes (I have never actualy time myself on just rut page entry.)

    hmm, lets see, 10 minutes, or 90 minutes, 10 minutes, or 90 minutes.

    Last time I tried to use an OCR (closest I've used to a handwritting reconiction program) I had to re-type over 40% of the work, even worse, I had to go and spend over an hour correcting the mistakes that the computer had entered into my work!

    Now I admit that a handwritting system would be **VERY VERY** handy for math problems, but it would have to have what would be the equivilent of almost an AI in terms of its problem form reconition (just look at how hard it is to enter a problem on a TI calculator and all of the parathesis's that are needed and you'll see what I mean).

    But as it is, there is no way in the world that i would want to have to do anything by just writting in it.

    http://www.slashdot.org/

    Sheesh, it is MUCH easier to type that in that to write it in! (then again, I may start using my bookmarks if such a hand-writting system became common place on all laptops!)

    Can you imagin having to WRITE IN your credit card number? Eech, destroys the whole point on online conviencence.

    This reminds me of the yee-old nerd joke about the new data storage format, its double sided, variable density, highly portable, and it supports all known charecter sets.

    Its call a paper and pencil.

    Heh, ok ok, old, but still good.

    Anyways, my point here is that Apple is just taking a step backwards, as it is, I refuse to by a Palm PC, instead I am opting for a Pocket sized PC (which come standard with a 98% or so keyboard, which is still too small for me actualy, I can't even type right on those older Macintosh keyboards, as it is I am perfetly happy with my Microsoft Natural Keyboard, the orignal models!)

    Sheesh, and with the size of my writting, and the known accurecy of Watcoms pens (their only good pens cost almost as much as a laptop!) there is no way that I am going to buy, or even suggest (or think about suggesting. . . . ) such a poorly designed piece of equipment.

    Ugh, knowing apple its likely to be see through too!
  • Frankly, I'm dubious of this announcement. A completely keyboardless computer has too many drawbacks that would make it difficult for day-to-day work. It also sounds like a warmed-over version of Apple's aborted Juggernaut project, which featured a modular computer that housed most of the hardware in a LCD screen that could be operated as a slate notebook. A lot of bogus "news reports" from different hardware manufacturers feature exclusive photos of prototype hardware -- from five or six years ago.

    However, a notebook computer that operated as a keyboardless slate would be excellent. Have you ever tried using a regular notebook while standing (and, no, not standing over a desk on which the notebook is sitting)? It's nearly impossible; you have to balance the thing in one palm while doing the old hunt-n-peck with the other hand. A notebook with a detachable keyboard (or, preferably, one that folded back behind the screen, a little like that high-end WinCE one a while back) would be great for quick jotting and note-taking, like writing on a clipboard. It would also make diagramming a piece of cake. The mouse is a lousy input device for drawing, IMHO. I use a drawing tablet for some of my work, and going back and forth between that and the keyboard is a pain in the ass.

    Pen and voice input could definately be used more and better than they currently are, especially in conjunction with a keyboard. There have been so many times I've wanted to have a little Graphitti floater on-screen so I can execute the occasional keystroke when I'm using a tablet. Tablets, however, are almost exclusively seen as computer illustrator's tools and support for them has matched that preconception. If Apple puts a decent pen-based input device in a general-purpose notebook, there will potentially be a lot more interest in developing for non-keyboard, non-mouse input interfaces.

  • I don't think the technologies are developed well enough that Apple feels that everyday people can use them reliably and have them Just Work, reliably, 100% of the time

    Ah, but for The Rest Of Them, keyboards don't Just Work reliably either. If only you could see my mom try to type...


    ---
  • It it still going to be inconvenient for lefties, even with the Newton recognition. The main problem with left handed writing is that it is difficult to see what you are writing. This is why most lefties write with a hooked wrist or angle the writing surface. This is more difficult to do on an (often small) LCD with a bezel around the edge that makes things uncomfortable.

    Even more annoying for general pen input is the convention of having vertical scroll bars on the right side of a window. When trying to scroll with a left hand you can't see the text scrolling by because the hand occludes the display. There are some apps for the Palm that are "lefty aware" and allow the user to select the scroll bar placement. Options such as this should really be provided by the OS in order to implement this feature transparently on all apps.

  • This brings the issue of having an addon keyboard... all well and good but now you have something else to lug around... sure its not a major inconvinience but it still is a bother.

    How about both? There were laptops that allowed the covers to be removed so that you can place them on projectors (the old-style kind).

    Now what about being able to open the laptop 90-180* for use as a normal laptop, or being able to fold it closer to 350*, and have it close back on itself, somehow covering the keyboard. Now, you'd just have an LCD screen, but if that screen also contained a tablet, you could use a stylus directly on the screen.

    This would allow you to have both. Keyboards in Quake, and a stylus directly on the screen for writing. Personally, I write faster than I type, mainly because I make fewer mistakes...

    Incidentally, if you spend a little bit of time with a tablet, you stop paying attention to it, and just watch the pointer on the screen. Works pretty well. A little disorienting at first, but it gets second nature, and works better than a mouse after a few hours... The table understands a relationship between it's dimensions and the screen's that mouse doesn't have.

  • My handwriting is so bad that it's considered a learning disability. On top of that, I simply cannot really think and write at the same tie --although I can type and think at the same time-- apparently, it has something to do with which nuerons (sp?) fire during each activity.
    MY handwriting was why I started using computers in the first place; okay, fine, Zork was a factor too

  • Yeah, and didn't that Babbage guy try to make a computer. And after years of work and plenty of money wasted there was very little to show for it.

    I can't imagine that any company would think it would succeed now.

    Steve M

  • The more your arm has to move in order to do it, the more it is likely to hurt

    It's not that simple. The problem with mice and keyboards is that they force you to twist your hand in an unnatural postion (palms down). This position causes much more strain than the vertical postion your hands are in while writing.

    Try this:

    With your hands above your keyboard, ready to type, try to rotate them. You can only go in one direction, cause your hands are already at the limit of where they can move (which causes fatigue).

    Now put your hand in a writing postion, and rotate it. Can move both ways. Your hand is starting in a neutral position.

    - Isaac =)
  • they are supposed to also be red in color and have two white knobs - one in each lower corner.

  • Uh...buddy? Good friend? Stop your apple bashing, all of you! Just because someone, even Yahoo, reports an Apple <b>RUMOR</b> does not mean it's true. I mean, think about it. Now that you've thought about the likelihood that they're gonna destroy all of their keyboards and use a super-inefficient handwriting system instead, and realized that it is basically nil, you can stop this senseless Apple bashing. Thanks.

  • Don't get me wrong, I'm an avid sylus fan -- I couldn't live without my PalmPilot III. Although handwriting recognition software is a great form of input, it is slow and tedious. For short commands and tasks that don't demand a lot of input, stylus pads are wonderful.

    There is another option that mobile computer enthusiasts have known about for some time now. It's not revolutionary, but it's certainly useful. Feast your eyes on the twiddler [handykey.com].

    Welcome to Handykey Corporation, makers of the Twiddler(tm). A combination keyboard and mouse that weighs 4 ounces and fits in the palm of your hand. The Twiddler(tm) is an enabling technology of wearable computing.

    And for you Palm Pilot enthusiasts, check out the TwiddleHack [1stresource.com]. With a portable sync cable, a little solder, battery case, and a couple watch batteries, you've got yourself a one-handed keyboard for your Pilot!

  • The Newt had HWR, but it didn't work well till the version 2.0 (MP130) machines came out. That's why Grafitti was developed, as a replacemnt for the HWR on the early newts.

    Just for fun, I've got Grafitti loaded on my MessagePad 2100. I just need to remind myself why I don't want one of those nice sleek Palms.

  • Working Link... (Score:5)

    by Disco Stu ( 13103 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @12:20PM (#899349) Journal
    is here [yahoo.com].
  • Live asian bondage goat porn?
  • Perhaps this is yet another one of Apple's (in)famous mole hunts designed to plug up leaks. I mean, Apple's done some pretty stupid things in its time (Performa, anybody?), but Steve would have to be a FUCKING MORON to completely remove a keyboard from a computer while pen-based input and (especially) voice input are still less useful than keyboard input.
  • Look at the Psion Revo; it's the same width and thickness as a Palm V, only longer. If they can fit a keyboard on that thing, then they can make them small enough even for the tiniest of notebooks.

    -Karl
  • The ironic part is that someone made this into a little Newton movie, complete with sound, available for free download...

    Very very fun to see Palm Pilot owners' faces drop when I showed them a movie making fun of the Newton, on my MessagePad, playing with full motion and sound (albeit in 4-bit greyscale), back in 1997.... Got yr 200 MHz StrongARM lovin', right here.


    --
  • That would solve the problems created by spilling hot coffee all over the keyboard and ruining it.. Oh.. Wait..

  • Think the /. troll posts are hard to read (let alone understand) now? Just wait till all those kids get new handwriting macs for xmas!

    Slashdot graffiti may start to look more like its title implies!

    NightHawk

    Tyranny =Gov. choosing how much power to give the People.

  • Obvious Problems (Score:3)

    by Tsian ( 70839 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @12:24PM (#899356) Homepage
    It sounds great, and would be for word processing, but consider applications that are mapped to use keyboards... 3d Modelling, Spredsheets, hell even games, all would have to be re-written if there wasn't a keyboard. Heck even your OS, web browser and email client would need re-writing... no Slashdot surfing for one.

    Still a good idea, and one step closer to having the Newton back.
  • I'm not sure what the goal of getting rid of the keyboard is - as others have already said, typing is faster and easier. One advantage *could* be to make the laptop smaller, but you are always constrained by screen size, anyway.

    Now, if Apple wants to come out with a head-mounted display that I could plug into a Palm/Handspring-style device, *then* I'd be interested.

    Wind
  • Well, i am still wondering why no one is making an Itsy, are they that expensive???? I mean a keyboard for a PDA is cool, but where are you gonna use it? it destroys the whole "carry it in your hand and work on it with the other" If they could ever get Voice Recognition working right, I forsee it spelling the end of laptops. The lines between laptop/palmtop/PDA are blurring, proper voice recognition would mean that we could get rid of the keyboard. IBM microdrives in a PDA with a StrongArm anyone? I would be first in line!
  • Is there anyone here who can write (for a recognition system) as fast as they can type? I doubt it - I can't even write in my normal sloppy script as quickly as I type. This idea seems cool at first but really sucks.
    One good product Wacom makes can be seen here: Graphire 2 [wacom.com]. This pen and mouse combo seems pretty decent - a wireless mouse and a pen input tablet all in one. Don't worry about that mouse; it communicates with the pad somehow.
  • I just have one problem with voice recognition... Let's just say you're writing your essay and pacing your room while writing it, stubbing your toe and swearing every now and then. Now won't that look good in your report! Especially if you spill coffee on yourself and start swearing non-stop for oh, 8 pages? :)
  • ...the first program somebody is going to write for it will be an on-screen keyboard.
  • How many times has the death of the keyboard been predicted?

    Over the years computer users have been introduced to many things supposed to minimize use of the keyboard, if not eliminating it all together.

    Mice, well mice have their uses. I use mine mostly for GIMP and playing Quake. Usually, if I can get away with typing and using keyboard shortcuts I'm happy.

    Speech input. I've tried this this to. I wasn't impressed. Even if speech recognition got to the point where it was usable, I don't think I'd like to use it. I don't think vi would appreciate being talked to. Keyboard fenesse (ahh spelling) is the only way to go. Also imagine a computer lab with 30+ people all talking to their computers.

    Touch input. Every system i've tried has been painstakingly slow, and difficult to use.

    Direct brain input. Slap a fance name on this one, and its what I'd use. I think that from what I've seen this is the only thing that would get me to give up my keyboard. But, until then I will continue to type my why to carpal tunnel syndrom (not that I belive in that either :)

    --
    OK, so I can't sppel, so sue me.
    --

    ___________________________________

    Linux by Libranet - The TOP Desktop

  • This would be nice if it was replaced by a liquid crystal touch sensitive pad. Hit a button, it lights up as a touch keyboard, hit it again you've got a tablet. And let users customize buttons here and there :) Makes me drool
  • Mental incapability and DOS. Kinda go together, dont'cha think?
  • It's not at all processor-dependent. It's person-dependent don't you think? Once a person's writing speeds beyond 25 wpm or so, it becomes too messy (and this is for 90% of people or so) for today's software to recognize, no matter what processor that software is running on.
  • Isn't this just sort of a web tablet in disguise? Without a keyboard there isn't any need for the traditional two-paned laptop. Instead you'll just have an LCD screen used for both input and output. I've been hearing about these things for years but have yet to see one that really works and is here now - if there was, I'd buy it. Nothing like reading Slashdot on the shitter :)

    --

  • Typing is faster than longhand writing, and much faster than writing in print. However, voice recognition could be faster than either typing or writing.

    Although voice recognition is still weak (I've used IBM's ViaVoice to write letters), it's getting closer to general usability, for much text-writing.

    It will never be popular with programmers, since we need two-dimensional control of our text. But for the average Joe, a way to point where to add text, and voice recognition software, would be an excellent input combination.

  • One, you don't know that a computer couldn't recognize your handwriting than a person could. Unlikely, of course, but possible.

    Two, I grant that you prefer to type on a keyboard. If you can't use the writing pad type controller, then don't. Same for everyone else that needs a keyboard.

    But don't read more than is available; they are working on writing recognition to supplement and enhance the current interface, and perhaps change it, but not to replace it. They will add it to Wacom tablets, which at best replace mice; then you don't have the problem of context switching between mice and keyboards. This doesn't replace the keyboard unless you choose to replace the keyboard yourself!

    As for the GUI for DOS... yes. For people who can't use keyboards, but need mice, joysticks, voice, and eye tracking. They need something to point to. They can't type! As for high speed Internet Access? No, of course we don't need it-we want it!

    Apple has no need to keep the needs of all computer users in mind; only those who use them, buy them, or have them. They don't have to cater to the blind, the deaf, or the stupid, but they do, and good for them.

    I hope I haven't just responded to a troll, but you get the benefit of the doubt cuz you have a user name and handle!

    Bye!

  • Why would you want to? (Score:3)

    by dustpuppy ( 5260 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @12:40PM (#899386)
    Seriously, the only advantage I can think of to get rid of the keyboard in favour of pen-based entry is space.

    But if you do that, you lose the advantages of a keyboard:

    you can enter data faster

    easier to enter data if you don't have a stable surface - ie. you only have to concentrate pressing a key as opposed to forming a stroke

    you can look at the screen while you type on a keyboard as opposed to looking at a small section on your screen where you are scribbing a letter, then checking the main screen to make sure that it correctly identified what you typed.

    you can't lose your keyboard like you can lose your pen :)

  • Re:Mole Hunt? (Score:3)

    by Sloppy ( 14984 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @12:40PM (#899387) Homepage Journal

    It depends on what the user uses the computer for.

    Geeks use their computers for everything. We even sleep with our computers and sell the pictures to.. oh wait, never mind. But we use 'em for hacking, web surfing, keeping track of our Babylon 5 Action Figure collection, or whatever. You know when Brooke Shields said no one gets between her and her jeans? Well, that's us and our computers.

    Some people aren't like that. I suspect that was the whole point of Apple's "For the Rest of Us" slogan. I know people who use a computer all day just for one single application. They bought it to run that app, and that's all they do with it.

    Now, are you telling me you can't think of any applications where pen or voice control would be appropriate? A lot of people thought the Newton was pretty cool, and I know some people who use Dragon's speech recognition software for transcription. Um, maybe, just maybe Steve Jobs wants a piece of their wallets? I hardly find that to be in FUCKING MORON territory.

    Do you think he won't be able to sell it? Do I have to remind you of the fact that the "five fruity flavors" angle actually worked?!


    ---
  • This seems like the right course of action for apple to take. Thier whole business is based on simplicity. Doing away with the keyboard just gives them point and click and print/handwrite (most likely graphity though).

    Thier Notebooks are becoming more and more like palm pilots. And consequently Palm Pilots are becoming more and more like notebooks.
  • The Newton's handwriging recognition is the coolest thing I've ever seen. It's excellent.

    It couldn't recognize my handwriting for squat. And for a programmer, I have pretty neat handwriting. But YMMV, if the praise some people give the Newton is any indication. My Southern accent confuses the hell out of speech recognition programs, but they seem to work okay for the Californians who designed them. :)

    Personally, I type at 78 wpm, so HWR is pretty well useless for me. OTOH, it would be nice if there were a good, general purpose tablet machine with long battery life and a high-resolution display. I'd use it in lieu of a Rocket eBook, and maybe play MAME games with it. Of course, if it comes from Apple, it'll be too expensive and incompatible with, well, just about everything else. But perhaps some PC maker will rip off the design.
  • Well, I have had a messagepad 2100 (the very last newton) since spring of 1998, and I must say it's very good. I actually had to chase around town, and when I picked it up I was told that I got the last one in the lower mainland, and if I hadn't shown up that day someone else would have gotten it.

    And they're surprisingly fast. I actually take all of my class notes on it. Once I taught it a chemical engineering vocabulary, which took less than two weeks, it kept up just fine. I'd estimate a very low error rate, definitely less than 10% and possibly less than 5%, and nearly all errors could be fixed by a quick tap, tap 'try letter-by-letter recognition' that didn't slow me down much at all. And in many ways it was faster than taking the notes on a keyboard would have been: the profs draw a lot of diagrams, and quite frankly, 'tap, tap I'm in drawing mode, draw the picture, tap, tap I'm back in writing mode, keep making notes' is a heck of a lot faster than trying to make those diagrams with a keyboard and mouse. Selecting and moving items around - text or drawings - was so easy. I used that feature a *lot* for annotating the drawings and diagrams.

    The two weeks I spent teaching it a chem.eng vocabulary didn't slow me down in class, either, because I told it not to convert the text, just to save the images of my handwriting for later conversion. After class I would go through and convert it to text, fixing all the errors. Once it learned the words, though (the newton works on a wordlist then a letter-by-letter scheme) I didn't have to do that anymore.

    And it reads *my* handwriting, not the handwriting that the makers programmed into it. It's bigger than a palm, but it has a bigger screen, which I think is worth it. It may not fit into my pocket, but that's why I have a 'shoulder holster' for it (g)

    I love my newton. In case you haven't guessed already.

    "When correctly viewed, everything is lewd
    I could tell you things about Peter Pan
  • Basically, you can use a pen-based tablet standing up without a flat surface - try that with a clamshell portable. Of course I'll still use a keyboard and a mouse, but only when I'm at my desk. I'm hoping that a tablet system with built-in Bluetooth isn't much further than 18 months away as I intend to simply have a wireless keyboard and mouse.

    I spend most of my time with one hand on my mouse and the other with my chin on it. Sure, when I'm typing this response I'm using the keyboard, but the periods where I'm typing stuff are getting smaller and further apart

    I'm not anti-keyboard. I bought the wonderful folding keyboard for the Palms. In fact, that's where I decided that a pen-based system with a removable keyboard is particularly convenient...

  • Don't be silly; they're not replacing it (Score:5)

    by / ( 33804 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @12:42PM (#899408)
    If there's any truth to this story, then you can rest assured that Apple won't replace all keyboards in their powerbook lines. Far more likely is that this is just the product that'll fill the 6th slot in apple's hardware plan, separate from powerbooks. For years, there've been rumors about apple producing a tablet device, and the technology and the prices are finally getting to the point where they just might do it.
  • It doesn't sound like anyone is being dictated to here. The article suggests that the keyboard would still be available. Handwriting recognition is being added to provide more options.

    Do we really need a GUI for DOS? For some folks, emphatically yes! Otherwise, the computer would overwhelm them and they would never benefit from the many things it can do. For those who don't need the GUI and had all their needs met with command line DOS, they certainly have the option to continue to use just DOS.

    Progress is great! If it is truly progress, it makes human lives better.

  • The quote that "the idea is to get rid of the keyboard" did _not_ come from Apple. It came from a source "familar with Apple's plans" which could mean just about nothing.

    I doubt that apple would scrap keyboards on all of their powerbooks, at most they may offer one or two models without and add handwriting recognition to the rest.
  • You (the poster to whom I'm replying) have got it, almost.

    The keybord saved my life

    That right, you heard me I said "The keybord saved my life", and while I mean it in a "that night the DJ saved my life" kinda way rather than a "the doctor saved your life in there" kinda way, it is never the less the truth.

    I'm mildly dyslexic, I have difficulty with spelling, and remembering lists, but as a youth my main problem was with handwritting. The teachers thought I was stupid. The kids picked on me, and I was heading directly to the dole queue (do not pass go do not collect £200).

    Then my parents bought me my first computer, a ZX80. Hardly CPU power, hardly a keyboard worth using. But I did. Boy did I use it. I got tested, I got help, my teachers saw my potential. I passed English, thanks to the keybord.

    I was just dyslexic. Many people have much worse problems that that with writing. Like no arms, for example.

    Ironicly I now use a PalmV as an organiser, and can actually code using the graffiti, but thats a matter of practice and detemination. It was the leg up I neaded. The alternative. The choice. Different input devices for different people.

    I think I've made my point. And a couple of extra ones as well. :)

    Thad

  • This reminds me of a April Fools joke that went around many years ago (1993, 94?) that Apple was going to completely replace the keyboard with the mouse.
    Instead of typing with the keyboard, you would have a graphical wheel on the screen that you would drag to rotate. Rotating the wheel would scroll through the characters. When you got to the one you wanted, you clicked.
    I mean, seriously, where do they take an annoucement about handwriting recognition for the Mac becoming availible and suddenly translate that into "Apple is doing away with the keyboard"
    That's silly.

  • Re:Apple keyboards (Score:3)

    by Senryu ( 213838 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @12:58PM (#899441)
    > was that a Haiku?

    No, a Senryu
    A Haiku's first line must reference a season.
    Senryu is a general poem that follows the 5-7-5 format.
  • Has anyone seriosuly compared the time it takes to write something via hand writing recognition (i.e. on a Palm) vs. the time it takes with a keyboard?
    You can't compare the Palm's so-called "handwriting recognition" to the Newton's. First of all, you could write anywhere on the screen (wherever you wanted the text), not just in a special spot, so your hand moves naturally; not the unnatural writing-every-character-in-the-same-spot thing you get with the Palm. Secondly, you could use your own hand writing, not one chosen by the engineers because it was easy to parse. Thirdly, you could write as fast as you wanted, the bitmaps are saved in place and later converted to actual strings in the background.

    So you can write as fast as you would write on paper. For many people, that's faster than they can type.

    The Newton failed because the software was so advanced that the available technology to run it was slow, expensive, large, and heavy. The Palm was a serious step backwards but it ran acceptably in available, inexpensive, and small/lightweight hardware. Now that there has been a few iterations of Moores law, the Newton stuff is poised to come back.

    Burris

  • Back in November of '93 Apple actually had workingprototype units of 'tabletized' Powerbook Duos. They got to the hardware seed phase, but pulled back when the press was having a field day with Newton's handwriting recognition.

    The recognition actually imporved a great deal with NewtonOS 2.0, not that the world cared or took the time to notice. Now that other PDAs have failed similarly in 'off the shelf' recognition, and rely on letter-by-letter (Graffiti) or keyboard entry, the average consumer accepts that handwriting recognition isn't effortless and is prepared to learn a little to make it work better.

    I'm just sad that it took so long to get to this point. I wonder if they'll bring back the Newton in another 5 years...

    Kevin Fox
  • you need to take notes in class. Here's an example...

    A friend of mine, who was a senior applied physics major last year (he has since graduated) had one of those very, very small laptops. He took the laptop to all of his classes where he needed to take notes that didn't include formulas (psych, for example). I asked him why he didn't use the notebook for his other classes, and he said, basically, that the notebook was incredibly impractical for taking down equations. Honestly, when you go to lecture and it consists of 1-2 hours of taking down, analyzing, and deriving equations, a notebook computer is worthless. If they could manage to have their handwriting recognition software so that it would recognize equations and convert them into a usable file format (LaTeX maybe? or mathematica?) then it would be an incredible boon to engineering and science students everywhere.

    Moller
  • Apple appealing to older folks? "Handwriting" and "easy user interface" are earmarks of trying to appeal to an older crowd.

    You can't argue that a key "tap" is slower than the strokes of writting a letter. But, there is a generation between the 50's and the 90's that didn't really have the same "touch typing" classes in school.... And... in the 50's it was High School, in the 90's it was grade school.

    Your never going to replace the keyboard... Your only going to be able to refine it (twidler?).

  • Did we really need a GUI for DOS? Did we really need high-speed Internet access?

    Did we really need fire? did we really need the wheel? I was happy back in the good old days with OOG the open source caveman hunting and gathering my food and eating it raw, man life was good. Why dont we start a nuclear war so we can go back to the good old days.

  • Has anyone seriosuly compared the time it takes to write something via hand writing recognition (i.e. on a Palm) vs. the time it takes with a keyboard?

    Is there anyone that actually writes faster without a keyboard? I don't see why this is a feature other than possibly the size and durability of the laptop. I'm also sure a regular keyboard can function with far more dirt and debris on it than a tablet can....

  • Eat up martha? (Score:4)

    by canthidefromme ( 129041 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @12:25PM (#899462) Homepage
    In the auditorium, Skinner speaks to the children.

    Skinner: Children, the times they are a-becoming quite different. Test scores are at an all-time low, so I've come up with these academic alerts. [hold stack of cards] You will receive one as soon as your grades start to slip in any subject. This way your parents won't have to wait until report card time to punish you.
    Martin: How innovative. I like it!
    Kearney: Hey Dolph, take a memo on your Newton: beat up Martin.
    [Dolph writes "Beat up Martin" which the Newton translates as "Eat up Martha"] Bah! [throws Newton]
    Martin: [being bonked on the head] Ow!



    -j
  • In an earlier story, someone had noted that Apple was likley to fill the 6th space in their product grid with a tablet/pda, I'm assuming this will be more of a webpad/tablet computer than the failed newton. Or is Apple likley to simply allow pen input on the powerbook in addition to keyboard (think Vadem's Clio which would flip over itself to become a tablet)

  • I'm sick of people using the name of "progress" to try to justify dictating what you can and can't do. Did we really need a GUI for DOS? Did we really need high-speed Internet access? No, and we don't need handwriting recognition either.

    Yeah I need a GUI to view and high-speed internet access to get my massive fix of asian bondage goat porn. Without either the would would be a rough place to live...

    -- iCEBaLM
  • Don't think "wordprocessing" when you see this. Think Photoshop / Graphic design -- a portable tablet-sized device an artist can take on the road and draw on directly, instead of having to hook up a separate tablet. We already have tablets [wacom.com] with a built in lcd screen that the artist draws on directly. Apple is just taking the logical step of wrapping a computer around it and updating the operating system not to require any additional input devices.
  • Now, are you telling me you can't think of any applications where pen or voice control would be appropriate? A lot of people thought the Newton was pretty cool, and I know some people who use Dragon's speech recognition software for transcription. Um, maybe, just maybe Steve Jobs wants a piece of their wallets? I hardly find that to be in FUCKING MORON territory.

    No, I'm telling you I don't think the technologies are developed well enough that Apple feels that everyday people can use them reliably and have them Just Work, reliably, 100% of the time (or near enough that it doesn't matter). Maybe Apple R&D has been putting in the hours necessary for this to happen. If they have, and Steve is able to pull this out of his ass at a MacWorld keynote before everybody else is doing it, it'll be yet another home run for Apple.

    I'm just skeptical.

  • I think you all are missing the point (Score:3)

    by benbritten ( 72301 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @01:10PM (#899482) Homepage
    As I read through most of these comments it seems to me that most of them are things like 'who can't type faster on a keyboard then HWR?' and 'the keyboard will never die!!'

    I think you are all missing the point here. Apple isn't going to stop including keyboards with all of their products, they just might come out with something that doesn't have a keyboard (like the newton, or the palm, but bigger) is it possible that there are people out there that might want to buy somehting like that? yes there is. maybe you don't but, who cares?

    I think the ibook screen is too small and it is not expandable enough, so you know what I did? I bought the computer that was right for me, a powerbook. I didn't write Apple (or slashdot) and bitch about the ibook not being right for me, cuz they have products that do cater to my needs. I know people who love their ibooks, and they dont want anything more. I guarantee there are people out there who do not like the keyboard, who don't need that extra functionality for whatever they are using their machine for, and would get along just fine with a tablet-based system.

    perhaps whenever apple leaks (or announces) something that sounds like change (oh my gosh!) you can all sit back and think; 'well, i dont htink I would like that, but someone might' instead of assuming that everyone on the planet is like you and would rather drive a six-inch spike through their foreheads then give up their keyboards...

    sheesh..

    (BTW I used to have a newton2000 and the HWR rocked)
  • A portable manufacturer was doing this with direct writing to the laptop screen a while ago. You just had a laptop sized device, and wrote on it. A look at their website www.grid.com [grid.com] shows me they are still doing it, but catering to a different market. (See the "pen based products") I remember it was being advertised in Wired a ways back (2+ years ago) marketed for regular consumers, and it must not have gotten very far.

    Another variant of this is from Wacom [wacom.com]. They have a line of their graphics tablets that have a LCD screens behind them so an artist can draw right on the display. I don't think they do handwriting recognition, though.

  • If it comes from Apple it won't have Graffiti. The Newton had real handwriting recognition. The Palm did not because it couldn't do it given the power/weight/price constraints. The Newton had it, but at the cost of being large, slow, and expensive; that's a big reason why it failed initially.

    Burris

  • Yeah, but consider the bulk of a keyboard compared to the bulk of a stylus. If I have a pad to cary around and use throughout the house/office, it would be nice not to always have to lug the keyboard around. If I get to the point where I'm going to be doing heavy text entry, then I'd probably be sitting down at a desk anyway. So I leave my keyboard at the desk and only plug it in when I have to. The best of all worlds (well, not really, but options are nice).

  • No keyboard doesn't mean no text entry (Score:3)

    by billstewart ( 78916 ) on Thursday July 27, 2000 @01:12PM (#899503) Journal
    No keyboard doesn't mean no text entry - it just means that the character input device isn't a mechanical keyboard, it's something else, typically stylus-based, which the operating system uses to hand characters to a device that wants them. It can either use a handwriting recognition program like Palm Graffiti or a hunt&peck stylus keyboard like Textware's [twsolutions.com] FITALY [fitaly.com] keyboard or a QWERTY stylus-pecking keyboard (which would be slower than fitaly, which is optimized for 1-finger use.) It does require some adaptation for applications that want Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift-Double-Bucky-F10, but there are ways to set stuff like that as well.

    At the gym I go to, there are computers with touchscreens over some of the exercise bikes, and you can 1-finger type on them. It's a dog-slow way to enter anything, but fine for web browsing once you're past the first real URL, at least given the speed you read the web while biking.

  • There's no way I could ever put up with handwriting recognition as my sole source of input.

    I can type about 5-10 times faster than I can write normally, and that's without caring if anybody besides myself can read it. If I'm writing on my Palm, and care to have a certain level of accuracy, I'm reduced to less than 10 words per minute.

    That's just not acceptable for a laptop computer. Palm tops, where the most you should have to type in is a person's name and address, are ok for handwriting recognition, but even there I find myself typing notes on my PC and uploading them to the palm.

    In short, bad idea Apple...

    Doug

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