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The Courts Apple

Apple Asks Supreme Court To Reverse App Store Ruling Won by Epic (bloomberg.com) 42

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Apple said it has asked the US Supreme Court to review a judge's ruling from two years ago that could diminish the billions of dollars in revenue its App Store generates by letting app developers direct users to alternative payment methods. From a report: Apple's request to the high court on Thursday is its latest salvo in a drawn-out battle with Epic Games over how the iPhone maker runs its app marketplace. App Store revenue is lucrative for Apple, with developers charged a commission of as much as 30% for sales of digital goods and services -- a fee that the maker of the popular Fortnite game is trying to avoid paying. At the same time, years of complaints from app developers and scrutiny from governments globally have already forced Apple to rewrite some of the rules protecting its dominance in the $160 billion app distribution marketplace.

Apple's request comes a day after Epic petitioned the Supreme Court to review a separate part of the ruling, that App Store policies don't violate federal antitrust laws. Apple's filing couldn't immediately be confirmed in court records. The Supreme Court, per its regular schedule, could decide by the end of the year or early next year whether it will take up either or both of the petitions. In a mixed ruling in September 2021 following a trial, a federal judge in Oakland, California, largely rejected Epic's claims that Apple's online marketplace policies violated federal law by barring third-party app marketplaces on its operating system. But she also found that Apple flouted California state law by blocking developers from letting consumers know about alternative payment methods. The 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the trial judge's decision in April.
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Apple Asks Supreme Court To Reverse App Store Ruling Won by Epic More

Apple Asks Supreme Court To Reverse App Store Ruling Won by Epic

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  • Charge them for bandwidth instead. At least for the actual costs incurred, Apple should be compensated.

  • Apple doesn't have a good argument for why I can pay for a novel on Amazon with a debit card but the eBook would need to cut Apple in for 30%.

    The political reason is Amazon (and Walmart and Temu et al) would pull their app from iOS but all of Apple's excuses crumble into illegal tying.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Shakrai ( 717556 )

      Amazon wouldn't pull their app from iOS. You aren't wrong that the commission structure is bullshit but Apple is the 800 pound gorilla that even Facebook had to bow down to.

      What's really funny/sad is there's nothing you can do with an app that can't be done with a webpage these days. The web has never been more powerful but consumers are conditioned to think of 'apps' instead of just going to a damn webpage. I know Gen Z'ers that can't tell you what 'www' stands for.

  • > by blocking developers from letting consumers know about alternative payment methods.

    Apple doesn't stop you having alternate payments, just not hosting them within the store.

    The issue is Epic wants to get Apples customer base without paying anything to Apple. While Apple does the hosting.

    If they rule in Epics favour it's going to have huge implications everywhere. It allows others to set up shop in other peoples online stores without paying for that privilege.

    • Apple is just hosting app installer not the backed of your APP or game.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mspohr ( 589790 )

        And Apple wouldn't even need to host the app installer if they had less restrictive policies on installing apps.
        It's just a monopoly money grab without justification.

      • Apple is just hosting app installer not the backed of your APP or game.

        Just.

        And Product-Page Designer. And Indexed Aggregator. And Payment Processor. And Update System Designer/Maintainer. And Customer Service Desk. And probably more I am forgetting.

        Ask some older Software Developers/Publishers how much fun it was to try to get anyone to even know you or your App existed before the advent of The iOS App Store.

        Oh, and traditional software Distribution Channels made Apple's 15% Commission (only a few have to pay 30% on App initial Sales, and all Subscriptions longer than 12 mos.

        • > Ask some older Software Developers/Publishers
          > how much fun it was to try to get anyone to even
          > know you or your App existed before the advent of
          > The iOS App Store.

          Been there, done that. Before the App Store, a buddy of mine and I had a modest little indie app for the Mac (Also, pre-Mac-AppStore, obviously.). It was mostly a hobby, but we got the notion that others might like it and started selling it. It never brought in much more than beer money. But that experience was very illustrati

          • > Ask some older Software Developers/Publishers
            > how much fun it was to try to get anyone to even
            > know you or your App existed before the advent of
            > The iOS App Store.

            Been there, done that. Before the App Store, a buddy of mine and I had a modest little indie app for the Mac (Also, pre-Mac-AppStore, obviously.). It was mostly a hobby, but we got the notion that others might like it and started selling it. It never brought in much more than beer money. But that experience was very illustrative of how dumb the whingers about Apple's 30% really are. Of course, the likes of Microsoft or Amazon or Costco or whoever have enough pull to get themselves some sweetheart deals. But if you're not one of the 800lb gorillas? Add up the cost to individually obtain everything the App Store provides, and you can forget about the store's cut being 30%; your OWN cut will be pretty close to 30-35%. And that's not counting the headache and time sink of doing PCI DSS yourself, and also incorporating (And dealing with the tax implications thereof.) because credit card processors don't do business with individuals.

            Once the app store was announced, we were absolutely THRILLED to be able to get on it for only 30%.

            Finally, a Voice of Reason!!!

            Mods: Mod Parent Insightful!

            And never forget that that "30%" is actually 15%, until your App Sales are well past the "beer money" phase!

    • > by blocking developers from letting consumers know about alternative payment methods.

      Apple doesn't stop you having alternate payments, just not hosting them within the store.

      The issue is Epic wants to get Apples customer base without paying anything to Apple. While Apple does the hosting.

      Epic doesn't care about Apple's hosting. They could host themselves. The problem is that Apple makes it very hard to install applications from outside their store.
      If there were an option such as Android's "allow unknown sources" then Epic could create its own store and use its own payment method.

      Also Apple host plenty of applications where the developer pays $0*. It's called free applications. It's not as if hosting was expensive.

      *OK, the developper needs to pay for an expensive Mac and perhaps development

    • It's not Apple's customer base, it's Epic's customer base. Apple is just the middleman.

    • > by blocking developers from letting consumers know about alternative payment methods.

      Apple doesn't stop you having alternate payments, just not hosting them within the store.

      The issue is Epic wants to get Apples customer base without paying anything to Apple. While Apple does the hosting.

      If they rule in Epics favour it's going to have huge implications everywhere. It allows others to set up shop in other peoples online stores without paying for that privilege.

      I wouldn't go that far; Apple will simply change the payment model. Now, with IAP, Apple bears all the expense of hosting and only gets paid when a sale is made. For developer's that reduces the upfront costs and risks since they only pay Apple when they make a sale. If EPIC prevails, I suspect Apple will change the model and demand up front fees, hosting fees, pay per download, etc. to make up for lost revenue. New version? New version fee... If EPIC wants access to Apple's user base then Apple will fi

      • apple has an yearly dev fee and you need an mac to run there coding tools.

        • apple has an yearly dev fee and you need an mac to run there coding tools.

          No matter what you develop for you need a computer, and IIRC there are non-Apple dev tools available; some cross platform. Yea, there is a fee to access all of Apple's developer tools but you can also get a free account that has some limitations. My point however, is the App Store has significantly reduced the costs of entering the iOS market for a small developer. I suspect if Apple is forced to make changes the cost structure may be less advantageous and entail more costs upfront.

      • Thanks. You covered bits I wasn't aware of.

    • Apple does the hosting by force though, so that canâ(TM)t really be counted. It would be different if Apple was being forced to do the hosting instead of the other way around.

  • Interesting coincidence (Score:3)

    by smooth wombat ( 796938 ) on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:33PM (#63883645) Journal
    Epic is laying off nearly 900 people [morningstar.com] at the same time Apple filed this request. Wonder if Apple is dragging this out as long as possible to bankrupte Epic.

  • apple is going be forced in the EU to open the sto (Score:3)

    by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:42PM (#63883677)

    apple is going be forced in the EU to open the store up / enable side loading so will they pull out of the EU? just keep things as they are and pay the fines?

    • apple is going be forced in the EU to open the store up / enable side loading so will they pull out of the EU? just keep things as they are and pay the fines?

      Naw, it's too valuable a market; they'll just change their pricing structure to charge for things that is now part of the 30%. You want Apple to host but get paid outside of IAP purchases? Fine, here's the fee structure for us to host your "free" app. Payable upfront and monthly for d/l volume. If you don't like it host it yourself or find a 3rd party store. Oddly enough, the rise of 3rd party stores should lessen the pressure on Apple because consumers and developers have choices.https://apple.slashdot

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      apple is going be forced in the EU to open the store up / enable side loading so will they pull out of the EU? just keep things as they are and pay the fines?

      Well, Apple may be able to do a reverse Uno and manage to get ALL stores opened - so if you run a digital store, you have to allow people to sideload stuff on itt. After all, why should app stores have all the fun, and not Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo as well, followed by Epic and everyone else who wants dances but not vbucks.

      Sometimes the best way to

      • Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but you side load onto the phone, not the store. The store is just software that has a frontend on your iphone and a backend on Apple servers. Right now, you can't load an application onto an iphone without uploading it to their servers.

        Side loading would be completely bypassing the store altogether. So it's really opening up the iphone hardware platform and not the app store itself.

        Or am I missing something?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mjwx ( 966435 )
          This is about in-app purchases. So you can load/buy the app on the store (Apple/Google/whatever) but you can deal directly with the developers or a third party of their choice to do in app purchases (I.E. buying a hat for your character or in game currency). At the moment Apple removes your app if you try to do this ensuring that they get their 30%.

          If Apple were to force a precedent in this regard, it would not be a bad thing.

          BTW, it's nothing to do with sideloading or even running code. For the most

          • I see what you are saying. It's not really fair for epic to avoid all the cost associated with running the app store when they get the advantages of being on the app store.

            I guess that's all the more reason Apple should be forced to allow sideloading. It's easy as pie to open a web browser to epic games, download the application and run it on an Android, but impossible on an Iphone. If you could enable sideloading, then epic could do everything for themselves. Apple shouldn't force you to use their store an

            • P.S. I don't see why a hardware manufacturer (Apple) should get any money from my purchases inside of a 3rd party application they have nothing to do with. Users bought the iphone, it's theirs. 3rd party software creators shouldn't lose money to a middle man. Apple is forcing itself in the middle and extorting software developers for access to iphone users.

    • Fines would escalate if no action is taking to fix the situation. Non-compliance is not an option.

  • Fuck Apple. Karma be damned.

  • Therefore only apple can use it. You should be able to use anything you want in any device you want... Whether it has round corners or not

  • ..is an unfair monopoly

  • I love how obtuse some people can be. On the one hand, they bitch that they have to go through the app store or the play store but then the applaud when social media companies deplatform somebody saying that free speech only applies to the government and it all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

    • I think you are comparing two different things. There is only one way to post on Facebook but they don't charge you for that. If Facebook removes your post because it's against community guidelines (their arbitrary rules) that's up to them as the host.

      To get your App onto an Iphone, you have to go through their store, but an individual iphone is not a community message board. The store is also not a community, it's just a frontend for a server that hosts applications for you to download. Apple also starts c

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