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'Microsoft is Shutting Down Cortana, and Apple Should Do the Same With Siri' 85

Posted by msmash from the not-a-bad-idea dept.
Filipe Esposito, writing for Apple-focused news site 9to5Mac: As reported by Windows Latest, the Cortana app has received an update via the Microsoft Store after two years without getting a single new feature. But instead of new features, the update pretty much kills Cortana and now shows a message saying that "Cortana in Windows as a standalone app is deprecated." [...] Earlier this week, during a call with investors, Apple CEO Tim Cook reinforced that Apple has been conducting research with a "wide range of AI technologies," including "generative AI" for years. Multiple rumors have pointed to Apple internally developing a technology to compete with ChatGPT. However, while Microsoft and Google have already made their new tools available to the public, Apple is still a long way off.

In the meantime, Siri is still Siri. Even Apple employees complain about "organizational dysfunction and a lack of ambition" when it comes to the development of Apple's virtual assistant. Some employees point out that Siri is still based on a very legacy technology and that improving it would require a lot of efforts. Seeing what other companies are achieving with generative AI, I do think it's time for Apple to give up on Siri and focus its efforts on new technologies. What about you? What are your thoughts on Apple, Siri, and AI?
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'Microsoft is Shutting Down Cortana, and Apple Should Do the Same With Siri' More

'Microsoft is Shutting Down Cortana, and Apple Should Do the Same With Siri'

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  • Antiquated (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CAIMLAS ( 41445 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:25PM (#63740886)

    Siri is antiquated. Despite receiving updates for compatibility and interoperability and a couple new 'keywords', it hasn't seen meaningful, significant technological improvement in the better part of a decade. It was never particularly good - Google's "OK Google" ecclipsed it out of the gate, and even Alexa is generally better despite the insidious "would you like to buy some credits to make me useful?" personality flaw.

    In our house, we've got to disable Siri on most devices to make the Homepods pick up the response, and in that case we often have to talk to "her" as if she's a special needs child - slow, often repeating ourselves. Even then, the results are often hilariously wrong.

    • Even as a basic voice to text interface, they're all frustrating.

      On the cheap side, the Echo Dot blows away all of the Google devices for microphone array and voice detection. But then the responses are useless compared to Google.

      I'd love if they could interpret intent better even if they only had a handful of predefined functions. I don't really treat my "smart" speakers as virtual assistants - they are just devices I use when I can't or don't want to use a keyboard.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Z00L00K ( 682162 )

        I wouldn't miss any of them, a lot of hype, very little usefulness and mostly annoying to hear people talking to them.

        • The assistant portion gets only two uses from me:
          1. Turning on/off just two lights in the house - for the rest, the light switch is easier. Just the living room, where light needs change while sitting and one of the lights doesn't have a wall switch.
          2. Requesting it to "play the news" when I'm in the kitchen with dirty hands. And even that list of news sources is customized in the app, not by the assistant.

          Back when you could create custom actions, I used IFTTT to let it add things to my grocery lists (cu

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by narcc ( 412956 )

      I've been openly and vocally bullish on AI, but this really does seem like an appropriate application. I've talked at length about what transformers can't do and why, but I haven't talked a lot about what they can do. They are fantastic for text to speech, speech to text, and translation tasks -- all of the things that we need for usable voice interfaces.

      The importance of text to speech and speech to text are obvious. It's also something that we're finally able to do well locally. Translation is less ob

    • By comparison, Google's Voice Assistant has been under continuous development ever since it was released. Even without "AI" it continued to improve and to be able to answer more and more sophisticated questions.

      So often software companies feel like they can develop something cool, and then sit on their accomplishments. In reality, you can never stop improving, or you will soon be swallowed up by the competition.

    • Voice interfaces suck because they are "invisible". Compare to a menu bar where you can see ALL the choices (when MS isn't making idiotic decisions like "short menus" or hiding buttons on a ribbon bar because the window is too narrow.)

      • Clippy had menus.

        Where is the scathing comparison and contrast to clippy in this discussion anyway?

      • I'm guessing you're the kind of person who goes on dates with cue-cards?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        They are good when you know what you want already, e.g. asking for a weather report, or asking to listen to a playlist. Google Assistant is good enough that you don't need to remember keywords; most natural language queries work.

        It's good when driving. The main issue is that some apps don't integrate with it, like BBC Sounds and YouTube Music Revanced. There isn't even a decent way to play music stored on the device itself.

    • I don't do much with them. Weather, reminders, timers or play music. While I can see what "smart" devices can add, I'm not that lazy and it isn't worth giving away personal information. Because of that, I don't need anything more.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by wwphx ( 225607 )
      About the only thing that I've found Siri useful for is occasionally making phone calls while I'm driving. We don't have any home assistant devices at home, so that's not an issue. But yeah, the slow and loud and clear mode of talking to her does seem to get the best result.

      As a certain TV show postulated, "Siwi sucks."

    • So, Alexa's a prostitute? Figures.

  • I'm not surprised. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by RitchCraft ( 6454710 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:34PM (#63740892)

    When setting up Windows for people the first thing they asked me to do was get rid of Cortana. In 6 to 8 years we'll be reading about these hallucinating AI retards being deprecated for the next "big thing".

    • What you say about Cortana is true. But I don't think the new AI chatbots will follow suit.

      Nobody wanted Cortana because it was too stupid. Whenever I would ask it questions, it would most often just show me web search results. By contrast, Google's Voice Assistant continued to be improved, and has become a tool I regularly use.

      As for generative AI, it's already saved me tons of time in software development, and other kinds of research. For example, I do stage lighting using a system called Hog4PC, a well-k

      • A fellow lampie, and i have to give respect for using Hog. I'll admit I didn't think of that use for AI. Considering some of the cryptic tasks programming a board, especially some of the scripts in GrandMA, it makes sense.

        • Yeah not a fan of GrandMA! It's like using a Garmin GPS compared to Google Navigation. It can do the job, but so much memorization! JANDS is really slick, but horrendously expensive. HOG is generally pretty decent (if a little clunky) and can do real light shows, and not all that expensive.

          Since you'd understand, my question was, "On Hog4PC, How do I remove a fixture from all of the cues in a cuelist?" I really didn't want to open each cue and use the knockout command one at a time. ChatGPT told me exactly

      • Whenever I would ask it questions, it would most often just show me web search results.

        ChatGPT is also just showing you search results, reconfiguring them to give the illusion of it "knowing" an answer.

        Having it read the internet for you saves you a few seconds, but those seconds are not that big of a deal, in my usage patterns. A much bigger deal, to me, is not getting to evaluate and compare different sources and presentations of information.

        The more/earlier in life one starts relying on these tools, the more insidiously damaging it will be. Not to the query, but to the person. It discourag

        • The more/earlier in life one starts relying on these tools, the more insidiously damaging it will be. Not to the query, but to the person. It discourages reasoning, as it lets you bypass the task of deconstructing/reconstructing the information to form an answer to one's specific query or need. It discourages thinking critically at all.

          This is precisely the argument teachers used to use when the electronic calculator began to replace the slide rule, and then again when the computer began to appear in people's homes, and when Wikipedia began to replace encyclopedias, and again when Google Navigation made it unnecessary to give people turn-by-turn directions.

          Every step forward in technology causes us to lose some old skill we used to have, which makes older people pine for the "good old days." Yet we continue to plow forward in our quest fo

          • This is precisely the argument teachers used to use when the electronic calculator began to replace the slide rule, and then again when the computer began to appear in people's homes, and when Wikipedia began to replace encyclopedias, and again when Google Navigation made it unnecessary to give people turn-by-turn directions.

            When students can just ask machines for all answers during class, take tests for them and order machines to do all their work. Even allow robotic avatars to take their place so they don't have to be bothered to attend class -- It's all ok because someone made the same argument about electronic calculators in the past and students have other things they would rather be doing.

            Wish people would think twice before invoking inherently unfalsifiable rhetoric. Technology and its use should be evaluated on the ba

            • Technology and its use should be evaluated on the basis of merit not abstract ideology.

              Our economic system has a way of evaluating the "merits" of any technology, through the flow of money. If people want a technology, they will pay for it. If they don't, they won't. There is no better way to evaluate the value of anything, because an abstract concept of "merit" is in the eye of the beholder. This is why a college education is a failure for many young people: adults see "merit" in it, but the students themselves don't value it. It's often not until those students grow older and realize the im

        • ChatGPT is just showing search results?! Have you even tried it yourself - especially gpt-4 but also just the free version (3.5) for that matter? Then you would know what it does cannot be explained just as showing search result. Ask it some question that combines enough elements/subjects that it is extremely unlikely anyone would have asked this (even in different wording) and you can see it synthesize a new answer that shows understanding of the subjects... it is not just copy/past-ing and adjusting/recon

          • your description of how it works is no more true for gpt than it is for any human being

            Comparing the inner workings of ChatGPT to the human neurons is quite an illustrative analogy here. ChatGPT's neurons have spent a virtual eternity poring over, analyzing, and relating all the search results. Its neurons have strengthened to considerable usefulness. The human using ChatGPT has outsourced the neuronal work, encouraging weakness and atrophy in his neurons.

            My description of how it works is based on how the people who built it describe it. Your description of how it works is based on your react

    • It's a terrible idea. Most of Windows is on computers, not phones. And the enterprise seems to be dominating as more home users stick with phones or tablets. And the enterprise is a terrible place to do voice chat on your computer for search. Even at home it's not all that useful. Sure you will find people who think voice with Cortana, Siri, Alexa, or whoever is great, it's not a very big market segment. And it doesn't work well anyway. Cortana without voice is just sucky, I want to search for a file,

  • No need to scrap the brand (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Can'tNot ( 5553824 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:35PM (#63740894)
    I've never used any of these, but Siri (and Cortana) are ultimately just voices. If they need updating, wouldn't it make more sense to swap out the backend then to get rid of the brand entirely? Siri, at least, is widely recognized and a pretty valuable brand. If Apple wants to get on the generative AI train, then do that and have Siri read off the results. Then they can run an add campaign about how much smarter she's gotten. They can show an iPhone going to school, with upbeat music and a inspirational line about how you should never stop learning.

    • The value of the Cortana brand has dwindled because they failed to execute with it. People now think of Cortana as a burden they would like to remove from their systems.

  • for me I am frustrated that Siri started off as a third party software that Apple bought from another company, then allowed to die on the vine by not continuously updating it as they have with other products. Had they had a dedicated dev team for it, as they have had for so many other products they either sell or giveaway, it would be much better,
  • Siri works.  I can take a screenshot with siri.  I can't do that with cortana.  That's just one simple example.  Cortana is deprecated because people don't use it because it doesn't even have simple features.  Not a very good assistant if it can't even do simple things.
  • Yes they should shutdown Siri and Alexa, and not replace them with anything. Why people feel the urge to talk to computers with their voice?

    • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      Well, if you are impaired in certain ways, it can be quite useful. For the rest of us, I doubt talking to your computer is anything more than catharsis.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by nomadic ( 141991 )

      Because it makes life much easier?

  • Siri is still needed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by GrahamJ ( 241784 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:45PM (#63740918)

    Not because it's great - it isn't - but it's an important interface for a number of devices including Watch, HomePods and AirPods. Voice isn't too useful on a desktop where your hands are hovering over a keyboard already but it's critical for many devices Apple makes.

    Apple needs to improve Siri not shut it down.

    • Exactly right. Cortonna never gained meaningful traction because no one needed it for interactions with their devices.

      Meanwhile, Siri may not be great (as you said, it isn't), but it's the best way to interact with some otherwise great devices, such as HomePods. We use Siri all the time (and joke about how bad it can be) because we love having HomePods around to (locally) control lights or other smart devices while walking through rooms. Cortonna, meanwhile, was basically the first feature I disabled on eve

    • Re:Siri is still needed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by LucasBC ( 1138637 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @06:44PM (#63741392)

      I think some of the problems with Siri are due to deliberate strategic business decisions.

      Case in point: I subscribe to Apple Music, but I deactivated streaming on my iPhone while it's on a cellular connection. I only want to listen to albums I've pre-loaded onto the device while I'm in my car. However, if I ask Siri, "play [album name]", it responds with, "I'm sorry, I'm having trouble connecting to Apple Music" despite the album being right there on my iPhone. I have to say, "play [album name] from my library" every single time.

      Surely it would be easy enough for the algorithm to realize I have streaming turned off and immediately search the library instead, but the fact it acts this way makes me think it's being done on purpose, to push the streaming service where they can better monetize usage with the publishers.

    • Too right. Calls to shut down Siri are just sensationalist drivel. Apple has integrated Siri throughout their product line and won't simply abandon it. They may flail while competitive offerings get better, but that just creates more incentive to solve the organizational problems and make Siri a better product. Whether it happens under the watch of the people currently in charge, happens through an acquisition, or some internal team shows initiative and comes up with a better approach is unclear - but y

    • This may be entirely a subject of opinion. Because you're right in some ways.

      But for me, I don't want it. Even a watch, even if it makes it easier, I don't want my devices in an armed position, listening to words spoken around it.

      If these companies would legitimately put a kill switch on it, so people like me would feel comfortable around it, that it would be my choice whether it were capable to doing that or not, I would be 100% more on board with it. Literally just that, an off switch.

      It's because they

  • Hope Apple keeps siri alive for simple things like weather, dialing contacts or driving directions. Cortana may be/have been a good interface with MSFT’s GPT/AI efforts. Using your voice for simple queries/tasks is very convient.
  • Odds are, they aren't killing the project because thry feel it isn't lucrative; They are replacing thr underlying tech with AI based tech. I'm just a guy on the internet, no insider knowledge here, but MS has been hard at work cramming AI into their products, then forcing the use of those products on windows as much as legally possible, so the writing is on the wall. Most I ever used cortana was yelling at her from bed to set an alarm because I was too lazy to get back up at night, set it, and lay back d

  • Donâ(TM)t use any of these (Score:3, Funny)

    by keysdisease ( 1093663 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:57PM (#63740948)
    But briefly considered Alexa when I heard you could Samuel L Jacksonâ(TM)s voice, but only if it swore like a sailor

  • MS is probably planing something ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PinkyGigglebrain ( 730753 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:58PM (#63740950)

    Note the wording "...as a standalone app is deprecated."

    Microsoft might be planing on fully integrating Cortana into Windows like they did with Internet Explorer/Edge so the user can't remove it.

    Microsoft has a long history of taking away User and Admin choices and control because "Microsoft knows better what the User really wants"

    • The independent app is what Cortana became after Microsoft saw everyone GPOing it out of existence, and it seems nobody knows nor cares to use the independent app.

    • No doubt.

      They've already added ChatGPT to their Bing app, complete with voice support. It's probably a matter of time before they rebrand it. Maybe "Cortana" was too catchy, and they'll just stick with "Bing Chat".

    • Re:MS is probably planing something ... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Saturday August 05, 2023 @01:49AM (#63741870)

      Microsoft might be planing on fully integrating Cortana into Windows like they did with Internet Explorer/Edge so the user can't remove it.

      No. Cortana is dead at the concept level. The Windows 11 integration (which is not app dependent, and already unable to be removed from Windows 11) is already removed in the preview builds which are due to be rolled out in retail Windows 11 before the end of the year. Cortana is truly dead.

      It is being replaced with something they are currently calling Windows Co-pilot, naturally powered by Bing's new AI bullshit.

  • Who shutdown Siri and Cortana? (Score:5, Funny)

    by theendlessnow ( 516149 ) * on Friday August 04, 2023 @04:12PM (#63740986)
    "Who shutdown Siri and Cortana?"

    (silence>

    "Alexa, who shutdown Siri and Cortana?"

    (silence, but some heard a faint giggle)
  • Sure but are they really useful? They are at prototype stage even if released. Apple never rush on new tech, so nothing new.

  • Do they expect me to unlock my phone, open the Clock app, tap the Timer pane, and dial in the minutes by hand? What are we, savages?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by hublan ( 197388 )

      This is exactly all I use Siri for.

      "Set a timer for 15 minutes, please".

      I also always add the "please", just in case the robots take over one day.

  • I use Siri all the time (Score:3)

    by addikt10 ( 461932 ) on Friday August 04, 2023 @05:05PM (#63741162)
    Are they talking about separating the concepts of Siri and Voice control of my phone, with Siri being something that Google was trying to do, calling places to make appointments? Because I use Siri for voice control several times per day.
    For example:
    • Hey Siri, remind me to take my medications when I get home
    • Hey Siri, remind me to buy milk when I go to the store
    • Hey Siri, create an Appointment to see my doctor next Thursday at 9:00 AM
    • Hey Siri, how many tablespoons are in a cup?
    • Hey Siri, play playlist cooking on shuffle on speaker Kitchen

    Not to mention using voice control during exercise or driving to control music, podcasts, audiobooks, etc.
    Now I don't personally use voice controls on my PC, but I'm sure that others do as much as I use them on my phone.

    I just think that getting rid of Siri is a silly concept.

    • Hey Siri, remind me to take my medications when I get home

      If you stop taking medications will you cease talking to a piece of electronics as if it is a person?

    • I use Siri every day for basic operations and for dictation for email and messages.

      Is Siri what I use when talking to Apple CarPlay?

  • How do you turn it of... huh?

    Oh.

    Sorry, Pavlov reflex.

  • ...just as soon as they work out a way to make it look like a small Russell Hobbs kitchen appliance: https://uk.russellhobbs.com/ [russellhobbs.com]

    I think Apple should at least give them credit for their designs.
  • After all these years, all these personal assistants are great at doing what you can do yourself, practically just as easily and efficiently, and are useless when it comes to doing what you would like for a personal assistant to do for you.

  • None of this voice to text or voice assistant stuff was ever useful. I could see it being useful for disabled people, but as a feature for the rest of us, just no. Nobody did it right. It's just too frustrating to have to repeat yourself slowly multiple times.

    The car stuff was the worst. Give it any instruction and it would do anything except what you wanted. It would love to reset the satnav and further the programmed destination.

  • I don't want a crappy voice assistant
    I can imagine a time when they mature to the point of being useful, but for the foreseeable future
    I don't talk to robots

  • For Siri, unless there is a significant cost to keeping the service running, it should be allowed to continue operating on the platforms that shipped with it.

    Removing the functionality, however limited, from devices that shipped with it would hurt the consumer. Making that non-hypothetical, my spouse uses Siri as an oven timer (because Alexa doesn't reliably hear her). Taking that functionality away would make her very upset.

  • Tie an LLM to a digital assistant, and maybe I'll start caring. I've hated Cortana since she was forced into Windows.

  • "And there was much rejoicing (yaaay)"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • We use Siri all the time, but for simple things. When cooking, asking her to set a timer when your hands are full is great. Setting reminders or appts works really well, too. Asking Siri to play music by an artist or play list works most of the time. Adding a current song to our library or play list is also handy. These features bring real value to our family.

    Siri lacks context of previous interactions, and her voice recognition could be improved. But the former is the real weakness. She also is unab

  • Siri works well for music, controlling smart devices, weather forecast, and short text messages. Beyond that it is mostly useless. You wouldn’t use a hammer to spread butter on toast. Use Siri for what it is good for you will find it useful. Trying to make it something it isn’t and you will disappointed.
  • Basic research in the 70s thru the 90s led to the DARPA CALO program that ran from 2003 to 2008. Some of those technologies then were used for Siri. As someone who worked on some of the basic research projects that eventually were leveraged for CALO I can say there were a lot of useful bits that were left on the cutting room floor that perhaps should not have been.

    Generative technologies could still be leveraged for UI, but the underlying system was "overly simplified" in my view; the original systems upon

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