Fair Labor Association Finds Foxconn Factory "First Class," Says Labor Watchdog 219
Richard.Tao writes "The Fair Labor Association found that Apple's plant where iPhones and iPads are far better than those at garment factories or other facilities elsewhere in the country. A quote: 'The lead investigator stated "The facilities are first-class; the physical conditions are way, way above average of the norm."' Which leaves the question, what is the acceptable norm?"
Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not Apple's plant. They're the biggest electronics factory in the world and make products for Dell, HP, Nintendo, Microsoft, Google, and more. Seems like a Greenpeace situation [slashdot.org] where Apple gets singled out because it generates more media coverage. Apple has actually been cited as the most proactive when it comes to monitoring work conditions in the factories they contract with.
Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is this -1?
Why don't we examine some of the OTHER factories in China that do business with like, oh I dunno, WALMART? Or Sears? Or JC Penny? Or the GAP? Wonder how proactive Walmart is about working conditions where it gets its products from...
Suppliers (Score:5, Insightful)
Those aren't great examples.
The companies you've listed aren't really "product line" companies. Yes, they have some of their own (rebranded) lines, but their primary business is selling other people's products (Nike, Reebok, Guess, Apple, Nintendo, whatever).
That being said, I once knew somebody who worked as the middleman between a U.S. brand corp and Chinese manufacturers. Their contacts in the U.S. were ruthless and in many cases absolute dickheads. For whatever reason they could find, they'd slam the Chinese manufacturers with extra fees, penalties, etc. It became obvious fairly quickly that they considered the Chinese manufacturers a sort of sub-class... and the workers at said manufacturer weren't even considered at all.
It's not just Apple, or even Foxconn, it's big business in the west overall. Given the way the corporatocracy treats locals as an inferior subspecies, it's not exactly unexpected. So long as the majority of consumers buy their products with no consideration to how they end up here, that's the way it will be.
Don't weep for Apple. It's about time *somebody* noticed this sort of shit going all and asked their favoured corp an important question: "why?"
One can only hope that it will result in some improvement, and - as Apple is currently a market leader - that it will eventually push other companies to follow.
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Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's because between we few honest commenters there are an active few corporate interests. It is what it is, because /. is free and open to all - even shills.
I wouldn't change it. If you like heavily edited well censored pap there are lots of sources for that. /. almost stands alone as a place where we can get our troll or truth on - as we prefer. In my experience there's a lot to be learned from both the honest folk and the trolls - and /. is the place to watch to see where the attempts at memes are going.
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Have you been in a Walmart? People already equate them with large scale human suffering.
Yeah - how do you think that yellow disc is able to fly around the store knocking prices down unless the jackboot of a supervisor in some Chinese sweatshop is being pushed progressively harder onto the neck of the working comrades?
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Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, please. They get singled out because some guy with a better haircut than you said he loves his phone.
Deny it if you like but this 'they have the highest margins' rationale only came up recently, curiously around the time it came out that the workers working on iProducts are treated better.
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.
And what
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APPLE is under scrutiny, not Foxconn. Everybody else is staying mum about it. Where's Microsoft coming out and saying "oh yeah, we're doing this too!" Mmm?
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No one is arguing that there are not worse sweatshops out there. No on is arguing that other companies don't use said "worse sweatshops". But your complete denail that anything is wrong with the way your favorite phone company is doing business is at best self decieving and at worst contemptable. Apple is in the news for poor labor conditions. If we ignore it and say it's OK then you are just giving a green flag to any other business that wants to use sudo-slave labor to produce their product.
..and yo
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No on is arguing that other companies don't use said "worse sweatshops".
Actually, yes they pretty much are.
But your complete denail that anything is wrong with the way your favorite phone company is doing business is at best self decieving and at worst contemptable
I didn't deny anything about the treatment of the Foxconn employees. The point is that you guys don't give a shit about the workers. You want to have something to bitch at Apple fanboys about. Want proof?
If we ignore it and say it's OK ...
Fascinating. So what started this thread? A list of other companies who are also using Foxconn. Now why would this list be interesting? So you can rake those companies over the coals, too. Who said 'let Apple get a free pass on this''? Nobody.
It is very telling t
Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not Apple's plant.
True, but Apple gives them most of their business, like when Apple bought Samsung's entire supply of ram, almost half of the world's supply of NAND Flash RAM, for the 3GS. [appleinsider.com]
If Apple said "Pay them more, give them less hours and more time off or we'll go elsewhere" Foxconn would, in a heartbeat, because they have no choice, Apple is the majority of Foxconn's business.
I love my iPhone, but this whole mess really has me thinking twice about my next phone. If there was another smartphone that ran IOS and had a more "ethical" factory I'd probably purchase that rather than another iPhone, even if it was a bit more (10%? 20%?).
Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Just remember Nokia, motorola, HTC also build their phones in China, but they don't even get apples minimal level of raising the workers up.
There are ZERO phones out there made without sweatshops like this.
Apple gets singled out because they are large, but smaller shops are the ones who treat them the worst.
Re:Foxconn and Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Just remember Nokia, motorola, HTC also build their phones in China, but they don't even get apples minimal level of raising the workers up.
There are ZERO phones out there made without sweatshops like this.
Apple gets singled out because they are large, but smaller shops are the ones who treat them the worst.
I see a lot of people rushing to defend Apple, a large corporation that recently posted record profits.
I don't see many concerned about the lives of these workers.
It's a sad world we live in.
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That is called capitalism. workers are just a resource to be abused like any other. Why do you think it is called Human Resources?
Really in a country where the average person doesn't have health care at all(USA) do you think worker exploitation in a foreign nation is really that shocking? 1 in 6 Americans don't have any insurance. another 2/6 have health insurance coverage so useless it is only good for emergency room visits.
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Apple has actually been cited as the most proactive when it comes to monitoring work conditions in the factories they contract with.
I believe that Apple is proactive about paying lip service to the need to do something, without actually doing anything substantive about the http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?pagewanted=all>factory explosions and suicides. See, you can have your cake and eat it too.
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what would "preparing for it" look like?
What, already? (Score:4, Insightful)
They inspected them for less than a week.
Yeah, alright. That's one swell job you guys have done.
How about some surprise inspections over the course of the next 6 months at least?
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FWIW, Apple's membership into FLA means that their suppliers will get surprise inspections in the future.
Doesn't matter (Score:5, Insightful)
I make no judgement on these factories. I have no doubt that I'd never, ever work in one, or let anyone I cared about work in one. At the same time, I'm not convinced they're not a big step up for the average Chinese person. Remember your history lessons? In this country (USA), we know something about horrible working conditions. Foxconn doesn't sound as bad as Triangle Shirtwaist Company, or any of the mine towns with the company store and wage-slavery. And people voluntarily went there just as people are voluntarily working at Foxconn.
The average work conditions have a lot to do with the environment. Sustenance farming was pretty miserable - is still pretty miserable, it's still around. There are still a huge number of people who would work in terrible conditions just for the privilege of a steady source of food (as opposed to fickle harvests).
This isn't to say we should get complacent - the moment we as a people declare the status quo "good enough", we've lost.
Having said that, there's a lot of people (many who will be posting in this article, I'm sure) that are convinced these factories are some sort of prison with forced-labor and the evil specter of Steve Jobs himself whipping workers until they're forced to jump. And that seems less productive than, you know, thinking.
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... these factories are some sort of prison with forced-labor and the evil specter of Steve Jobs himself whipping workers ...
I have never seen that S&M porn site. Are the workers cute naked chicks, rubbing iPhones and iPads over their well-oiled bodies during production? Please post a link.
Actually, a whip-wielding Steve Jobs video clip would be a good screen saver app. I don't think the Apple iPhone Store folks would let it in, though.
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The average work conditions have a lot to do with the environment. Sustenance farming was pretty miserable - is still pretty miserable, it's still around. There are still a huge number of people who would work in terrible conditions just for the privilege of a steady source of food (as opposed to fickle harvests).
None so terrible a condition as those who work in the butchering of others. Have a guess as to what you might taste like, then consider than some farmers need not farm at all if they only decide to live off the fat of the land.
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This isn't to say we should get complacent - the moment we as a people declare the status quo "good enough", we've lost.
Misery follows if you are unable to follow the status quo as "good enough for now".
Nobody said this would be the status quo forever. But change takes time, and the faster you move something big, the more friction you create. And if you move a country too fast, you can destroy it. Unrest, civil war, massive unemployment, runaway inflation, etc. etc.
It's easy to talk about change on /. - when you are responsible for more than a billion people, you ought to be a lot more careful.
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Foxconn doesn't sound as bad as Triangle Shirtwaist Company, or any of the mine towns with the company store and wage-slavery. And people voluntarily went there just as people are voluntarily working at Foxconn.
For having family in mining towns, and being two generations from one myself(on both sides), I'd say that Foxconn is worse. In mining towns of today, I'm not followed by representatives of the mining company's security company for entering the town, lawyers can openly practice against the mining company without fear of death or intimidation, the mining company isn't going to prosecute people that talk about their company, and people can buy things without having to be indebted to the company (such as with
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Mining towns to today don't have any bearing on the argument. The concern is what happened 50-75-100 years ago here in relation to China today.
Unless, of course, you want to say that the natural evolution is for better workplace safety and rights over time.
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You would have to go back past the 1930's to get a comparison that is like China.
As for China(and like minded places) bringing better workplace safety rights, they're doing everything to ensure meaningful progress never happens. This means that workers are forever subordinated to the business, with the pre-FDR era tradition of disrespect.
Businesses would rather be able to extend the concept of "business friendliness" as extreme as they can, and measure that as competitiveness.
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have no doubt that I'd never, ever work in one, or let anyone I cared about work in one. At the same time, I'm not convinced they're not a big step up for the average Chinese person.
That is easily one of the most racist statements I've read today. It's OK because they are Chinese?
...get with the twentieth century pal, we left that mentality a hundred years ago.
Are Chinese so much a lesser person that what would be horrible working conditions to you should be just fine for them?
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I'm sorry you think so. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming I was less than clear, although I thought what I meant was quite obvious.
The average Chinese person has horrendous working conditions - sustenance farming, or not much more. Do you seriously not see how working in a factory with (mostly) regular hours and a steady source of food wouldn't be a big improvement? The analogy is the industrial revolution that happened in the West - sure, those sweatshops and factories with little kids run
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with focusing on the fact that they are better than they could be is that you can justify practically any working conditions, so long as you can imagine something that's worse.
Ah, but what are the important things to focus on? This is the slashdot fail. The important figure to focus on is China's wealth. Its GDP/Capita.
Its really easy to sit here in one of the richest nations on earth and criticize a nation that has 1/10th the wealth per capita as America, and criticize them for not having the conditions that are only available in wealthy nations.. its easy as long as we completely ignore how fucking poor China is. Thats why none of the critics ever touch upon the subject of how poor the country is, but they instead appeal to emotions about "terrible working conditions" and other bullshit.
The people of China need these factories in order to increase the wealth of the entire nation. The primary enemy of mankind is poverty. The number one killer of humans is poverty. How dare anyone sit in judgment of China for trying to better the lives of its people through wealth creation. If you want to judge the government for its assaults on freedom thats great.. but to judge the country because the people want a better life and are doing the same shit we did to make better lives for ourselves.. its bullshit... tired old dogmatic bullshit.
Don't be fooled by the title. (Score:4, Insightful)
This article doesn't present any findings, and it's pretty clear the FLA in being interviewed only meant to explain who they are and how they will be investigating the working conditions at Apple's suppliers. The thing about working conditions is just a sound bite, no doubt taken out of context, to draw readers to what is really a pretty boring article.
So which report do we believe? (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-17/foxconn-auditor-finds-tons-of-issues-.html [bloomberg.com]
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Believe the one with the issues. Seems to me that even the best factory in the world would have problems during the crunch mode just before a major product launch.
Perspective, People (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people commenting about Foxconn have lost all perspective because they allow themselves to be blinded by Apple hate.
Let me explain why bashing Apple and Foxconn about this is so, so foolish.
1.) Poorer working conditions aren't exclusive to Apple's factories, or even Foxconn.
If you're trying to uphold your ideal working conditions on workers who create products you use, please take a step back and stop buying any product from any store. I can confidently tell you that all the products you use: your computer, tech gadgets, electronics, shoes, clothes, etc. are all made by workers in poor conditions, often even poorer than that of Foxconn. Instead of protesting against Apple/Foxconn, vote with your wallet instead of bitching in an online forum and feeling self-righteous after doing so.
2.) Workers are -happy- about their job and working conditions. It's you who feel unhappy about them.
Many workers are happy about their job and working conditions, in Foxconn and other such factories. These factories provide a lot of things (not just money) that they would never be able to dream of: a shelter over their head, varied meals, water, electricity, and more. Many of these people are uneducated and would be jobless otherwise. They need and are happy about these jobs. Your protesting will NOT IMPROVE THEIR LIVES. You will render them jobless (as you boycott these products and companies pull out of these countries) and effectively kill off their means of living.
3.) Progress takes time.
Most Americans have forgotten their past when there were still slaves, often in FAR worse conditions than that of China. It's been proven that a country needs time to develop, and attempting to shortcut the process will lead to disastrous results. 10 years ago, these people whom you claim to be working in "poor conditions" were starving because a drought wiped out their crops. Their lives have improved, and will improve as long as they have jobs.
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It still remains that the work conditions would be illegal were they done in the United States, and absolutely all of Europe. They are a step up over lots of shops in that country, but that doesn't change the fact that the hours the employees work, the benefits, and overall conditions are not acceptable. So they are the best of a crumy lot. I have the firm belief that any product that is sold in this country, I mean the US, must have been produced in working conditions that are of the same, or better, as
Re:Perspective, People (Score:5, Interesting)
The work that gets done now in China for Apple (or the other tech giants) used to be done in America, under American labor laws. Then the jobs moved to China, but they are equivalent jobs for American markets, so they should still be done under American labor laws.
Of course China has different laws, but American money from American consumers who pay for nominally American products should always get products made under American labor laws, regardless.
That leaves only two moral choices: either Chinese factories must raise their standards to American standards ASAP, or else Apple needs to be penalized (in America) for not following American labor laws while producing nominally American products.
Re:Perspective, People (Score:4, Insightful)
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That leaves only two moral choices: either Chinese factories must raise their standards to American standards ASAP, or else nearly every single company that sells a product in America needs to be penalized (in America) for not following American labor laws while producing nominally American products.
Fixed that for you.
I mean, seriously, what is with the focus on Apple, when every single reputable report shows that Apple is among the very best when it comes to how they get people treated at the factories producing their stuff?
And honestly, I wouldn't mind too much (though admittedly I don't fully grasp the economics and practicalities of it) if penalties of this sort were applied fairly and reasonably to American companies who have their products produced in factories that adhere to standards lower than
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Your government will never do that.
You can't just penalize Apple, you literally have to penalize every company producing something that is more than a few components.
It's not just assembly that's made of cheap labor: from resource extraction, to the production of individual components, to assembly, that exploits cheap labor.
America as a whole will lose competitiveness if this was applied, as believe me, no other country will be foolhardy enough to follow.
If you thought the economy/job market was bad, try ch
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Oh, my freaking god.. someone gets it!!!
Bravo.. my dear man bravo.. (hands clapping)..
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It still remains that the work conditions would be illegal were they done in the United States, and absolutely all of Europe.
What exactly is happening at Foxconn that wouldn't happen in the USA or in Europe? I mean not just wild accusations. And not asking about "what would be illegal", but "what would not be happening".
PS. If you say "working 60 hours a week" - I've done that. If you say "employing people below legal age" - I've been employed by one of the largest US companies while below the legal age.
Re:Perspective, People (Score:5, Interesting)
The John Stewart show that started this whole thing stated some pretty ugly figures about suicide rates. Workers get a bunk in a small room with seven other workers they don't even know. Around high places where you could jump to your death, they've installed nets to catch jumpers. If you talk to other employees about forming a group to negotiate for better wages or working conditions, you get 12 years in jail.
China has people to spare, and not enough resources to go around. That's one reason why labor is cheap and may remain that way for generations. Here in the US, we have resources to burn but not enough people to make use of them. That's one reason labor here is expensive, and why some politicians want to make children of illegal immigrants non-citizens: this would create a whole new class of non-Americans, living for generations in the US with no rights, ripe for exploitation as cheap labor, just like their illegal immigrant ancestors. We're not alone in the world in wanting a large population of near slave laborers to do the hard work for us (seen any Americans picking strawberries lately?). Qatar, for example, allows citizens to "sponsor" foreign workers, who once in the country aren't even allowed to leave without their employer's permission, or change jobs or complain about working conditions or wages... Remember all those black Africans trapped in Libya when war broke out? This is typical of what happens around the world when bad governments allow exploitation of the weak.
If we can make a small difference through educating Americans about working conditions in the factories where our stuff is made, I think it's an effort well worth pursuing.
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If we can make a small difference through educating Americans about working conditions in the factories where our stuff is made, I think it's an effort well worth pursuing.
But when manufacturing costs rise in China, that just means that the jobs will move to a country where workers cheaper and the Chinese factory workers will move from crappy factory jobs to no jobs at all. Which is worse?
Though I guess I can't think of any other country where wages are cheaper while still having the infrastructure to support factories.
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If you think the "John Stewart show" started this whole thing, then you too are part of the problem. This kind of pervasive ignorance of how the world works only happens in America.
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The John Stewart show that started this whole thing stated some pretty ugly figures about suicide rates. ... Around high places where you could jump to your death, they've installed nets to catch jumpers.
Look up the suicide rate per million of Foxconn employees. Look up the suicide rate per million of Chinese in general. Look up the suicide rate per million of Americans in general.
Two of those three suicide rates are "ugly figures" and I bet you'll be surprised to see which ones. In fact, it's several orders of magnitude worse than the lowest rate of those three...
As for nets, many buildings in the US (not to mention most countries of the world...) have suicide nets. Why is it such a big deal that Foxconn h
Re:Perspective, People (Score:5, Insightful)
1.) Poorer working conditions aren't exclusive to Apple's factories, or even Foxconn.
Irrelevant. "Joe may have killed someone, but Frank did too, so don't complain about Joe!" Being inconsistent in your calls for better treatment is much better than never calling for better treatment at all.
2.) Workers are -happy- about their job and working conditions. It's you who feel unhappy about them. Your protesting will NOT IMPROVE THEIR LIVES. You will render them jobless (as you boycott these products and companies pull out of these countries) and effectively kill off their means of living.
The whole point of exerting economic pressure through a boycott is to make it reasonable for a company to change their behavior to get you to buy their products again. Nobody, including people protesting, want to put anyone out of business. Also, and you might be surprised by this, but China is an authoritarian country. There can be dire consequences for protesting, and so you think they are happy, but really, they are forced by the government to be "content" with their lot. We know that conditions at Foxconn's factories have been bad in the past. There's no sense in saying "Oh, but those Chinese, their HAPPY about it!"
3.) Progress takes time. Most Americans have forgotten their past when there were still slaves, often in FAR worse conditions than that of China.
Time is not the cause of anything. Progress takes time, but that's because there's stuff that happens in time, like protests, political pressure, inspections, etc. You think slavery just ceased to exist because we gave it enough time? That shows a tremendous lack of historical understanding.
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Irrelevant. "Joe may have killed someone, but Frank did too, so don't complain about Joe!" Being inconsistent in your calls for better treatment is much better than never calling for better treatment at all.
It's not irrelevant at all. Focusing all the attention on one company isn't going to do anyone any good. For one, the focus becomes on the company and not the workers. It attracts all the haters who prefer to focus their attention on "how apple is doing bad" and not "how we can make this better". Frankly, I've not seen a thoughtful solution here besides "Boycott Apple!". How about an organization that promotes/advertises/labels products which are made with fair labor?
The whole point of exerting economic pressure through a boycott is to make it reasonable for a company to change their behavior to get you to buy their products again. Nobody, including people protesting, want to put anyone out of business. Also, and you might be surprised by this, but China is an authoritarian country. There can be dire consequences for protesting, and so you think they are happy, but really, they are forced by the government to be "content" with their lot. We know that conditions at Foxconn's factories have been bad in the past. There's no sense in saying "Oh, but those Chinese, their HAPPY about it!"
You're assuming a lot of things without
Re:Perspective, People (Score:4, Informative)
Well they don't keep committing suicide. As fas as I know you can only do it once.
The potential suicides were at the Microsoft part of the plant - and I'm not even sure they jumped
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/11/foxconn_mass_suicide/ [theregister.co.uk]
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The potential suicides were at the Microsoft part of the plant -
Oh, actually everything makes sense now.
White Opinions on Taiwanese Factory in Guangdong (Score:5, Insightful)
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They are owned by Taiwan, employ management from Hong Kong, employ Cantonese labor , and are governed by Mandarin communist party staff.
Makes it easy for the mainlanders to be divided against each other, much like how their military brought in troops from the countryside for the 1989 massacre.
Labor (Score:2)
Everything has been better when trade unions existed and they had power and really were protecting labors rights.
And that is socialism. But after the capitalism came, they have been hunted down or limited their power so corporations can rip everyone off as much as they want and because competition the products quality has gone down as well while amount of workers kept minimum.
In China, so many such strong trade unions did not exist. And same problem is on many other countries, so no wonder capitalistic corp
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What creates better conditions for workers is economic progress, so that workers don't
Can we check our sources, please? (Score:2, Informative)
The Reuters article is just one of a couple following the F.L.A.'s inspection of the Foxconn Plant. There is a slightly longer, but much more critical article by the New York Times [nytimes.com]. Looks as if /. editor's are doing is some editorializing of their own, too. From the "what-is-the-right-question" department, eh? How about from the "now-we-are-shilling-for-apple" department?
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You would expect that in a place where things are assembled completely by hand and the employees aren't allowed to talk. Whether that makes it a good environment is a different question.
Mike Daisey in China, talking about working life (Score:2)
An on topic story of working, the factory, what you can have made and the reality of the production lines
Many cheap hands are cheaper than robots.
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As the work becomes more complex and the cost per unit goes up, robots will be needed, until then that tech device will be done by humans in many very small, fine steps.
China gets export cash and pays its locals in its own currency - just enough for food, some basic shelter and a few extras.
So at this time the cost of local humans vs importing robots may not add up. If China can make its own robots and use them with less cash flow
The Fair Labor Assn is anything but (Score:5, Informative)
CNN has a nice article that puts "The Fair Labor Association" in proper perspective:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/17/opinion/nova-apple-foxconn/index.html/ [cnn.com]
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this link might work better-
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/17/opinion/nova-apple-foxconn/ [cnn.com]
Also, my $0.02 on the China government apologists- it's all about the free speech/press. Without that, any corporate working condition reporting lacks credibility. I.e. the above comment 'now how about random inspections over a period of 6 months'. Though I went to the trouble of posting the fixed link because that piece covers that issue pretty well (see aluminum dust explosion issue).
I'm certainly guilty of being a
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most of its money -- millions of dollars per year -- comes from the very companies whose labor practices it is supposed to scrutinize
Where *else* would they get their money?
The UN is funded by *GASP* its member nations!
Your local police department is funded by *GASP* you!
So what?
Clean factory with soul crushing overtime? (Score:2, Insightful)
I personally have spent a few months in Chinese steel mills on and off as part of my old job as an automation/GUI programmer.. The plants are dirty as you could possibly imagine, dangerous and badly maintained, but the workers I saw actually seemed quite relaxed and worked fairly normal 8 hour shifts, took lunch breaks etc. I notice the quote only focused on the physical conditions at Foxconn, but it seems like this is probably more of a management problem. The plants might be nice and clean but if the w
"...what is the acceptable norm?" (Score:2)
Union scale in the USA, of course. Do you think this is about human rights or something?
Disconnect (Score:2)
Nothing to see here...
These are not the slave workers you are looking for.
Apple executives can go about their business.
Move along to the next post ..
MY master provides better conditions (Score:2)
MY slave master provides better working conditions than YOUR slave master.
But the Chinese workers at these offshore provider manufacturing companies are ALL treated as badly as slaves in the old US south. REGARDLESS of whether they're officially "indentured servants" or not.
The fact that some companies treat their employees worse than Foxconn/Apple does NOT mean that ANY of them treat their employees with anything even RESEMBLING dignity or respect.
Irrelevant (Score:2)
I hope that conditions are bearable and will improve, but it's irrelevant. Those manufacturing jobs must come home to support healthy U.S. economy.
Before squealing starts how some basement dweller is "not willing to pay 10 times more" for their toys, for one, it would not be nearly as much. Research discussed on Slashdot recently produced numbers of around 23%. I'd be willing to pay 23% more for healthy U.S. economy or go without. If you don't, that's tough for you. There needs to be a nationwide referendum
Not surprising..... (Score:2)
Re:Fair Labor Assoc. == Apple Shill group (Score:5, Informative)
"The Fair Labor Association found that Apple's plant where iPhones and iPads are far better than those at garment factories or other facilities elsewhere in the country. A quote: 'The lead investigator stated "The facilities are first-class; the physical conditions are way, way above average of the norm."' Which leaves the question, what is the acceptable norm?"
Translation: So the manacles are in better condition, they're punished with lifetime imprisonment versus death in other places, and the slaves are kept in slightly better conditions - but are still slaves given that one risks imprisonment or death if you speak out against Foxconn or the like.
So this organization is only a whitewash group for Apple.
Not so. /. has the older story of the initial impressions by the FLA. The new one today (reported on by Bloomberg), instead says:
“We’re finding tons of issues,” van Heerden said en route to a meeting where FLA inspectors were scheduled to present preliminary findings to Foxconn management. “I believe we’re going to see some very significant announcements in the near future.”
Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-17/foxconn-auditor-finds-tons-of-issues-.html [bloomberg.com]
Re: (Score:2)
So.. they first say that they're finding lots of issues, and then go on to conclude that conditions are great? In addition, they say the first thing BEFORE a presentation of preliminary findings to Foxconn management and the conclusion comes AFTER?
With the amount of money at stake for the FC management, draw your own conclusions.
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So.. they first say that they're finding lots of issues, and then go on to conclude that conditions are great? In addition, they say the first thing BEFORE a presentation of preliminary findings to Foxconn management and the conclusion comes AFTER?
You got it backwards.
On February 15 they said that Foxconn's is a "first class" factory that is much better than many others in China, in particular garment factories.
Then on February 17 (yesterday) they said that nevertheless they are finding "tons of issues" that need to be addressed.
Re:Fair Labor Assoc. == Apple Shill group (Score:5, Insightful)
So this organization is only a whitewash group for Apple.
It may turn out that that is the case, but if the only evidence you have is "I don't like their findings" then you might as well be talking about the fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Feel free to post evidence...
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Naturally I say something bad about Apple, and someone modbombs it. My point was that Foxconn is a lesser evil - in that they only practice a subset of the things other factories would put upon their workers. Despite this, Foxconn still treats their workers with disrespect and distrust; going against the company is lifetime-shortening move as opposed to a career limiting move in the places that formerly did such work (e.g. the US).
One can find a ton of issues but they get swept under the rug when it comes
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Thanks for translating. I'm presuming that you're aware of the manufacturing pedigree of the computer on which you're typing your comment, and that every component has come from a factory where workers have Western-style rights, working conditions, pay, sick leave, vacation etc..
I'm pleased to hear that Apple products come from factories where conditions are far better than the norm in the prevailing culture. I hope that standards can be raised in all factories. I'm pretty sure that none of the workers ar
Yes I am, and it's less PRC than you think. (Score:2)
Some of my computers are old enough to where they do have the Made in the US label(circa 2000, at that). Same with the great deal of my components such as the keyboard.
It's not as if there isn't the capacity to manufacture in the US. As an example, look up the TAA (Trade Act) compliant models of IBM-era Thinkpads, where they were made to the same degree in the US that the Foxconn-built bits were made in the PRC. They stretch from when there was actual US manufacturing up to about 5-6 years ago(e.g. T42's
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What's rather interesting is some electronics are actually made in the US but will appear to be made in China. A few years ago I got a factory tour of a small US company that makes all of their electronics except for the PCBs they go on. The PCB has in giant white letters MADE IN CHINA, but the Made in China part was simply the green board. The soldering of capacitors and connectors, guiding the things through machines that do the more finer details, testing, putting cases on, etc was all done in New Jer
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If any of them talk to each other about the possibility of starting a union, they serve 12 years in jail. I heard this from the source that started this whole Apple Foxconn thing... the John Stewart show. The reason we're picking on Apple is because John picked on Apple, and because they really do have the margins to increase worker wages, unlike say Dell or HP. Actually, it was a terrific show, one of the best he's done, IMO. The whole point was of course bashing Republicans on the campaign trail as us
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If any of them talk to each other about the possibility of starting a union, they serve 12 years in jail. I heard this from the source that started this whole Apple Foxconn thing... the John Stewart show.
I read different things. For example here: http://www.socialistproject.ca/relay/relay21_unions.pdf [socialistproject.ca]
Quote: "Laws protecting union rights in China are better than in many other countries. With 25 worker signatures in a workplace, the employer must recognize the union. Once recognized, the employer must pay 2% of payroll to the union and the workers must pay 0.5%. The new Labour Contract Law, which will come into effect January 1, 2008, will help to ensure unions have the right to negotiate collective agreem
Re:No way! (Score:4, Insightful)
The outcome was known as soon as the study was announced.
This group is a industry created and funded "watch dog" group trotted out when any of the funding members need some independent *cough* observers to come in and put on a media show.
Re:No way! (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly, the Fair Labor Association at its core is a conflict of interest. They are funded by the companies they report on. What company would pay them for bad press? If they release unfavorable reports, they lose their funding.
Their charter has huge gaps in it, as though designed to provide companies loopholes to hide abuse. The biggest and most glaring example is that member companies are required to disclose only some factory locations. Meaning companies can create facade factories for inspection, while the real work continues to be done behind closed doors.
Even still they don't live up to their own chartered requirements with respect to transparency and accountability. There are supposed to be regular reports on factory conditions for all member companies. There are supposed to be reports on factory locations for all member companies. When abuses are found, the company is supposed to be named and remediation steps disclosed. The FLA has one report more recent than 6 years old on their site. That one relatively recent report (August 2010) is full of abuses across multiple manufacturers, including people who believe they are "always" expected to work for "more than 72 hours in a week" and for "more than 24 days in a row," and that they were not free to refuse overtime without repercussions. Those were the top measured tier in each of those categories. None of the manufacturers were named, and no remediation steps are outlined. Thus making the report completely toothless since there is no accountability and no attempt to repair the problems.
Apple opened up 90% of their factories for inspection. That's pretty good if accurate, it'd be hard to maintain a 90% facade. But they joined the FLA a month ago, FoxConn undoubtedly saw that there would be inspections coming through, and a month is more than enough time to clean up their act for inspection purposes. They also undoubtedly made it known to their workers that if they lose this Apple contract, those workers will be out of a job (and they really will be, nobody else will absorb that excess manufacturing capacity). So this inspection is easily whitewashed, and the workers will easily give glowing testimony so they retain their jobs. Also, wasn't it just a few days ago that they announced the inspections were going to start? They really thoroughly inspected all these factories in just a few days? Amazing!
So what exactly is this inspection supposed to prove? Plenty of time to prepare, workers who know if the inspection goes wrong that they'll lose their jobs, and a whirlwind tour of the factories by a sham organization. This is a token, "We got our hand slapped, let's make puppy eyes at the media," publicity stunt.
Re:This article is for Apple-haters (Score:5, Insightful)
There's little of substance to the story. It was posted so that Apple haters could rush in, out of breath, and bash Apple for "slave labor" and other goofy crap. Slashdot is a Google/Linux advocacy site, and Apple is one of their competitors.
I don't get how this is an article for Apple haters? An independent organization said that workers at factories that Appler uses have better working conditions than other factories and that the worst problem employees there face is boredom. How is that anti-Apple? I'm no Apple fan-boy, but the article validated what I thought all along - that working conditions in Apple's factories are no worse and probably better than in other factories.
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Yes, and it was expected - this isn't the first time people have visited the plant and checked, or the first time Apple has had a code of practice.
The outcome of the report was irrelevant though, since slashdot Apple bashers had made up their minds when Apple announced the FLA would be doing audits for them - if they find positive stuff, then its clearly just Foxxcon "hiding the abuse" while the FLA are visiting, or they release a pre-written report given to them by Apple and cash a fat cheque, and if they
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this isn't the first time people have visited the plant and checked, or the first time Apple has had a code of practice.
And http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?pagewanted=all [slashdot.org]>not the first time Apple has pretended to do something and not actually done anything about the deaths.
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(corrected link)
this isn't the first time people have visited the plant and checked, or the first time Apple has had a code of practice.
And not the first time Apple has pretended to do something and not actually done anything about the deaths. [nytimes.com]
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All things being equal, it seems that Apple is doing more than everyone else. But Apple is being bashed for not "Doing The Right Thing." So where's the bashing for Google? HTC? Samsung? Dell? I agree that the industry needs to continue to improve conditions. I find it heartening that even the Apple Haters admit that Apple is doing more than the rest.
I'm not a believer in dramatic, overnight change. That level of change tends to create more problems than it solves. To expect Apple to c
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They are literate and the best job available is a factory job?
Thats worse than India
You expect something better than a factory job because your most marketable skill is your ability to read and write? Hate to tell you, but that rocket scientist job with NASA requires a bit more.
Re:So, the employees are literate? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Hate to tell you, but that rocket scientist job with NASA requires a bit more."
I think the rocket scientists will have to move to China if they want to keep doibng rocket science. NASA won't exist much longer.
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Rocket Scientists won't, not just because NASA isn't giving up on rockets, but because those are used by the military too. Astronauts might be SOL for a while though as we seem to be done with federally funding orbital missions and we're probably not technologically ready yet to do much else.
Not that there's anything wrong with the changes in NASA's focus so long as they aren't used as an excuse to defund the entire organization. Government organizations like NASA are at least in part about doing the things
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Korea is usually synonymous w/ South Korea, not North Korea, and the GP was talking about North Korea. In no way does India come even close to North Korea in terms of substandard living, although I do believe that the Chinese have it better. However, fact remains that in both China & India, people are less entreprenual than in the US, and the risks of starting one's own business outweigh the rewards.
Anyway, back to the topic of literacy, if a country has more literate people than jobs for appropriat
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Or they're imprisoned.
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Another Ayn Rand victim.
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Property laws are the most basic form of government regulation. If someone beats you over the head with a bat and takes your wallet, who's to say that he didn't just "earn" your wallet? Should the government use force to protect people's property or should it simply let the fittest people survive on their own? By providing law and order, the government allows for an environment where productivity (as opposed to brute force) is rewarded most ... and if you agree with property laws then you're not advocating
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I suppose you didn't participate [slashdot.org] in that 'end copyrights and patents' discussion, where I specifically said that I don't believe in gov't policing of private property either. It's none of government's business to police private property.
The entire premise that gov't must be there to protect one individual from actions of another individual is wrong [slashdot.org].
Government is there to occupy the space that is always reserved for somebody who will govern, and as such, it is inherently evil, and as such, it must exist onl
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To me, government is any person or organization that attempts to oppress me through the use of force. For example, I would classify slavery as a form of (very small and local) government from the point of view of the slave even if there is no state involvement. In that sense, I agree that the only ethical government is the one that protects individuals from oppressive governments.
By definition, government must be a product of the free market (because when the government didn't exist, the market was free).
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Government regulations and laws do the opposite of what free market does. Free market improves everybody's conditions, government deteriorates everybody's conditions.
Please don't forget that you need a strong and active government to keep the market free. Otherways, you might end up with the sort of oligopoly and near monopoly that is prevalent in many US sectors now. Please note also that I am not talking about the kind of strong government which is burdening Russia today. A better example would be Norway. Or New Zealand. There are enough in this world to prove my point, just look around!
In the end it takes both: Free markets and benign government intervention.
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Please don't forget that you need a strong and active government to keep the market free.
- don't take it the wrong way, but this is what's called an 'oxymoron'. You can't have free market being forced by threat of violence. It's sort of like "noisy silence", "sweet sorrow", "artificial grass" and all these other contradictions.
It is again, propaganda that is pushed onto the people by government that makes you believe in such .... silly thing.
There is no such thing as a 'natural monopoly' [google.com], and definitely government laws cannot make market FREE.
The purpose of government is to exist and to be ch [slashdot.org]
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your so completely full of shit, you should go to school and learn something about economics, instead of spouting off that laissez faire nonsense. It's kind of your fault that you listen to such rhetoric, which often appeals to idealistic notions, but lacks the rigor of a proper education.
- excellent "argument". ...
anyways, im up late because im in pain, from having had an ulcer today, otherwise i would go into more depth. But please stop pretending your an expert on this , until you've decided to spend a few years learning and practicing it.
- more excellent argument.
What can I say, you are full of excellent argument.
--
By the way, I took this course on being more 'social' with people, they taught me this one thing: when I want to say that somebody is an "uneducated piece of retarded shill, who knows not of what he speaks", I instead must say: "excellent argument".
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my father and my uncle all think as you do, and what is common between you, is that you are anti-social. So it comes as to no surprise that you dislike social systems, and want to be a rugged and free individual, and believe that every man is an island. The issue is that economics along with politics, are treated like a sort of religion, one that should conform to a persons pre-conceived perceptions (and thus avoid cognitive dissonance).
I don't presume why you would presume to know better about politics or
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If they try and organise, they are banged up for 12 years. I'm thinking that in the Chinese prison system, that's code for "slowly tortured to death over about 11.5 years" (just by the conditions. no need to hire a torturer, a skilled torturer is expensive, right?)