Arise SIR Jonathan Ive 183
mariocki writes "Steve Jobs' go-to design man Jonathan Ive, the creator of modern computer design classics such as the iMac, MacBook Pro and iPod/iPhone/iPad, has been awarded a knighthood in the New Year's Honours list, taking him from plain old 'Mr' straight to 'Sir' in one fell swoop. This now puts him in the same league as Paul McCartney, Michael Caine, Bob Geldof and Bill Gates. Ive said 'I discovered at an early age that all I've ever wanted to do is design' and even for Apple haters his designs have done more for personal computer design than the mainstream PC manufacturers could imagine, taking the PC from the geek den into the living room of even the most painfully trendy fashionista."
Design Matters (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also why Linux will always fail - the whole principle of Linux is that there's no unified look and team that discusses, chooses and implements good UI and terms. In Linux world everyone just does whatever they want, often ignoring what or how others do it.
Good example of this is the linux shell. It still acts like it's from the 90's because people don't work together to bring it together. It's still based on text output because everyone does things differently. Compare this to PowerShell which passes objects between programs. This allows different pieces of programs to work much better together, without need to define rules on how to parse some other programs output (which also usually fails in less used cases).
Both Apple and Microsoft have got this. I hate to admit it but Windows 7 is the most beautiful Windows to date from Microsoft. So is Apple's OSX. If it wasn't for the games and some Windows only -apps I would use OSX because it is just much nicer to use. But there is no way in hell I would use Linux now. That might had been the case in 2005, but why would I do that? On top of polished interface and good design, OSX offers all the underlying tools that also make Linux powerful. And on Windows world there's PowerShell, which is much more powerful than GNU toolset has to offer.
Sorry, but apart from server world Linux just isn't going anywhere. No one really cares about the open part. They care about what they can do, and how easily they can do that. By far, Windows and OSX both offer those things and much better than Linux.
So good day Sir Ive!
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yeah, design matters. that's how current macbook pro sucks. metallic 90 degree angles right where you rest your hands!
win7 rocks. the more I use osx the more I understand that and this isn't just trolling, it's a usability thing on large screens(or small screens with high dpi. osx sucks soooo hard on this, that's the reason they're shipping 1280x800 screens, up to fullhd resolution on 13" and it's unusable and unlike windows you just can't put high dpi mode that actually worked on), having multiple windows
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OSX has been prepping developers for High DPI screens since 10.4 and in 10.7 all of the UI assets are higher rez. Ready for the upcoming Mac Retina Displays.
So basically you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Re:Design Matters (Score:4, Informative)
Whilst the foundations for higher DPI displays have been in OS X for many years now, the fact remains that there is no vendor-supported method for a user to turn on high DPI mode at present, even through some of Apple's displays are quite high resolution.
No Excuses Either (Score:2)
I sat in on a talk at WWDC '98 about resolution-independent GUI's by the NeXT guys and it was going into OSX in the next release as far as they were concerned.
They've had the technology but while Apple was all about killing with the best technology and driving towards openness at that time, by 2004 it was all about glam, fashion, proprietary, and consumer appeal.
It's been good for profits, but if they now find themselves being left behind because they've neglected the technology - well, now at least new lea
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Looks fine to me. I also run two 24" monitors at work off my MBP (with the help of a USB adapter) and it looks fantastic. Did you install this on a hackintosh? Somehow I think you are being less than truthful.
to this and the 17" inch guy: yes. they work fine when you don't need HIGH DOTS PER INCH mode by using a bigger monitor, which is why apples current displays which are high resolution are big. high dpi is not the same as high resolution. the point is that the menubar gets too small when you have high dpi and you can't increase the size of the menubar.
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I dunno. I have a win7 pc hooked up to my tv to a ct as a media server, and while I was able to modify the windows theme to make it legible from the couch, while still playing 1080p media in all it's glory, the interface does look horrible. Legible, yes. Done gracefully? No at all.
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and if you had osx, it wouldn't be legible at all.
but then you'd be told that you should have bought aTV.
now about windows:
and I never thought of turning the high dpi mode, which is adjustable, as modifying the theme. one thing to look out is to configure it so that it doesn't use the double-pixeling for some apps it thinks are legacy, because that messes up things more often than it helps.
Thanks Mr Ive, Nothanks Apple! (Score:5, Informative)
Thank you Johnathan Ives,
I commend the design of Apple products.
I might strongly dislike Apple but I know a good design and I thank Sir Ive but not Steve Jobs as it influences the rest of the industry. Ive has done more for us than Steve Jobs. The thing I hate is the business practices with the walled garden and arrogance over my 'user experience'. (This probably comes from Steve Job)
Thank god we now have Rounded Corners(tm).
Offtopic: Hey GP, Are you InsightIn140Bytes =P?
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Thank god we now have Rounded Corners(tm).
Rounded corners since 1984. Unlike X Windows. Long time before Ives. Thanks, Bill Atkinson.
If your actual intent was to make some snide remarks about things that you are clueless about, you should post what you mean so that your arguments can be taken apart.
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I'm pretty sure InsightIn140Bytes == InterestingFella. Close UID, same writing style, same opinions, both usernames use moderation names from /. My only real issue is him having arrogant usernames that declare him to be "insightful" or "interesting".
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Its Sir John, not Sir Ive
(ie the Sir goes with the given name).
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Oh that never occurred to me. I assumed it was like a normal title like Mr, Miss or Mrs.
Thanks!
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It's "It's", not "Its", unless you're referring to Sir John as an 'it', which I think would be a little rude.
relevant US law (Score:2)
Geldof is an Irishman, but as for Gates being a USian:
Article 1 section 9 clause 8 says officeholders can't accept foreign gifts without permission from Congress. However, Gates is not an officeholder.
Regular US immigration law (specifically 8 USC section 1448, http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1448.shtml [cornell.edu]) requires that naturalized citizens give up titles of nobility. However, Gates was born in the US
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Do remember, Ive was at Apple long before Jobs came out and how well did that go?
Yes, Steve Jobs' biography implies that the most important change Steve Jobs implemented when he came back to Apple (except for getting himself to the top) was to move Ive up to the top of the corporate food chain (only Jobs himself was above him, and he didn't hinder Ive at all), so he had free reign to get his ideas implemented, no matter how nutty they were (like the handle on the original iMac, which didn't serve any physical purpose and was very expensive).
Steve Jobs was the facilitator, but the real m
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what kind of fuckwit mods this drivel insightful?
who has ever complained that they find an ipad hard to hold, for god's sake?
who has ever said that the Air is too sharp??
and who really believes that the decision about how many buttons is made *only* on aesthetic grounds, when it has been made clear ad nauseam that it is a decision about *usability* -- keep things simple to minimise cognitive load -- and *durability* -- the fewer moving parts, the longer the MTBF.
why don't you enlighten us with your list of
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What a load of tosh....
Apple designer gets an award, you go off on an anti-linux rant
anyway...
The "backlash" to Gnome3, Unity and a few other projects that have rev'd their UI designs has not come from "casual people"
It's come from geeks / power users
They're complaining that design and overt snazzyness is detracting from the core usability
Ca
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A shell is supposed to provide direct access, text-only, to the OS and it's core programs for easy scripting and administration
No idea what powershell is, so can't comment
So basically you don't know what you're commenting on? There is nothing that prevents PowerShell being used in text mode. It is. But it doesn't only output as text, it passes objects. This means that if you pipe commands the other programs down the line get them as object, not as text that they need to parse and which can easily change. It works much better together.
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So basically you don't know what you're commenting on? There is nothing that prevents PowerShell being used in text mode. It is. But it doesn't only output as text, it passes objects. This means that if you pipe commands the other programs down the line get them as object, not as text that they need to parse and which can easily change. It works much better together.
Linux only provides the mechanism, but not the protocol, to pass objects between programs. The mechanisms are file descriptors, and sockets. To pass actual objects through those pipes or sockets, just install the protocol of your choice. XML perhaps? Or some binary format? Whatever you want.
Python, for example, can be used as a shell and allows simple serialization of objects, so you can easily pass objects between programs using Python on Linux. Most other shell-like languages also let you do this on Linux
It gives you 10 incompatible choices (Score:2)
Python, for example, can be used as a shell and allows simple serialization of objects, so you can easily pass objects between programs using Python on Linux. Most other shell-like languages also let you do this on Linux, like Perl, and Haskell.
So how do you pass objects between Python and Perl? Or between either and Haskell? "It gives you a choice" doesn't help when developers of different components that you're trying to make work together make incompatible choices.
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So how do you pass objects between Python and Perl? Or between either and Haskell? "It gives you a choice" doesn't help when developers of different components that you're trying to make work together make incompatible choices.
Do people actually use the object passing feature of powershell? I remember when the feature came out, I thought it was interesting, but do people actually use it? I haven't heard of anyone doing so, but it would be interesting to know about.
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the same concept as Linux ".so" files.
Unix *.so files.
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Choice isn't necessarily a good thing. And in this case it isn't a goo thing. Here, a standard way is far more useful than a choice.
Of course ALL general purpose OSs do give a choice: you can do something other than the standard if you need to. But having one paradigm is far more useful than having several different and incompatible ones. And the better that paradigm is... um... the better.
Intermediate representations (Score:2)
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That's all well and good, but the reason people like Linux is that it gives you a choice.
Every general purpose OS has a "choice". With this the difference between the two is Linux (and other Unix like OSs) use unstructured text for communicating between console programs, and Windows Powershell uses objects.
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Then all you need to do is write all the OS utilities al over again to use Perl and Python objects. And then you'll be using Linux officially because the kernel is the same. But the console UI won't be like anyone else's Linux.
Basically it's a nonsense. The Linux console COULD be written to pass objects between standard OS programs, but it was not. Linux has the UNIX paradigm of piping arbitrary ASCII streams between programs. And the presence of Python and Perl (as on every OS) doesn't change that.
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Passing objects via shared memory is 1) more convenient 2) hell of a lot faster and better. And it works in every program the same way.
As long as you're only working on 1 machine.Try implementing shared memory between 2 computers and let me know how that works. Also, the linux shell is NOT restricted to text, lots of gnu utilities (found in 99.9% of default linux installations) either accept or work solely with binary data. rsync, cp, dd, tar, gzip and ssh just to name a few all use binary data and work beautifully together. In fact, you can even combine them to do something like "ssh remote_machine 'dd if=/dev/sr0 | gzip -c' | gzip -d | i
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Winamp is still going. I still use it as my main mp3 player on my Windows box, because of the UI being small (though I might need to get new glasses soon). Now when you install it, you can choose the classic, small, uncluttered UI, or you can go for a large button clunky piece of crap. Unfortunately the default option is the large buttoned cluttered piece of crap. I choose the classic design every time.
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It still acts like it's from the 90's because people don't work together to bring it together. It's still based on text output because everyone does things differently.
A shell is supposed to provide direct access, text-only, to the OS and it's core programs for easy scripting and administration
Well done for missing the point. Your kernel doesn't use strings all over the place, it uses data structures, same for your userland – they're not busy parsing strings and manipulating them internally, they're passing data structures around. Using a text interface onto it is a reasonable approach, it allows the user to easily interact –but... It also requires silly amounts of parsing and writing out in the programs, which can be unreliable. Passing data structures around, and having standardi
Just use JSON. (Score:2)
Passing data structures around, and having standardised methods of parsing and unparsing them allows program code to be much simpler, and more reliable.
So what's the difference between "pass binary copies of data structures around" and "pass JSON representations of data structures around"? The latter can be used even between machines of different word sizes and byte orders. If you try to make a word-size- and byte-order-independent binary data interchange language, that's almost the same as just using JSON.
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Agreed, that's pretty useful too... But that's not what UNIX programs do, they provide human-readable output, and expect that when you pipe this human readable output into another process, that other process will just suck it up and deal with it. Separating the human-readable part from the sending data structures (via json if you like) between programs as power shell does is what's necessary.
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Same for any system that gives developers choice over the look and feel of their programs UI /have/ to conform to a set way of doing things?
When I was a windows user, I remember a music program called "Winamp" (quick google says the project's still going)
It's main selling point was it discarded the cluttered UI and overly large buttons and borders of the "standard winows UI", and used it's own custom design
This cut down the screen wastage, and made the program non-intrusive
You really want a system that's so rigid and inflexible that you
I don't know of any general purpose OS that's "so rigid and inflexible that you /have/ to conform to a set way of doing things". They all have games for example that invariably have unique UIs.
The point is that it's good to have a central set of UI paradigms that are used unless there's a good reason not to, such that users know what to expect. It can take the form of a document, or it can be implicit in the design of the applications that ship with the OS. Linux doesn't really have that. There's a big vari
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I don't think any geek in the past decade has said that design doesn't matter.
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I think that's because plenty of them view "design" as "prettiness", not because they actually think design doesn't matter.
Design matters. Flashy translucent gradients don't.
Re:Design Matters (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't really agree with you there. The whole point of the Unix shell is to provide a textual interface to various things. If you want something more complex, use something more complex.
I also don't see what's so great about Mac OSX or Windows 7. They're confusing and cluttered, and just look like a random mishmash of different widgets and design elements. There's no thought been put into the design, and it shows. Nothing is intuitive. Nothing is clear.
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There's nothing to stop you serialising objects and passing them between Unix apps if you wanted - this is maybe what Powershell does, without you seeing it - but I still don't know why you'd want to.
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In Powershell you can write scripts that access and manipulate those objects. You can't do that in Bash.
Serialized objects (Score:2)
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And how many Windows apps correctly use powershell objects?
Pretty much every stack on Linux supports cTypes and/or XML and/or JSON and/or Google's protocols, and stuff used to support CORBA. This is an old problem. The solution isn't in the protocol. If you want to pass an array or dictionary, it's easy. If you want "live" objects, with rich abilities, you are almost certainly fucked, as everything in your stack has to understand how to deal with exceptions.
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I don't know on what planet you're living, but the Windows 7 I use is rather spartian in its look and feel. You have the Start menu, a paradigm around since the early 90s, perhaps earlier (I wasn't really aware of such things back then...) and a series of docked programs.
Then the desktop, another decades-old convention, with desktop icons on it.
So far I see nothing confusing or cluttered. It's clean, efficient, and in fact it's perhaps the best desktop UI I've used to date. It certainly beats Unity or GNOME
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So, what is your favorite GUI OS then?
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OpenSTEP.
These days I quite like Haiku though.
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Wow, I think I used it back in the 1990s/90s in computer science labs in Slackware and Red Hat Linux. Not much has changed (still ugly). :D
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Just to disambiguate: he's probably talking about the NeXT implementation of OpenStep (NeXTStep) and you're probably talking about the GNUStep implementation, which was never as good. Well, at least since I used it last.
I did prefer it to the other alternatives on Linux in the 90's though.
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It's also why Linux will always fail - the whole principle of Linux is that there's no unified look and team that discusses, chooses and implements good UI and terms. In Linux world everyone just does whatever they want, often ignoring what or how others do it.
Yeah, like Android and their interface: totally not unified, not polished, impossible to use... wait a minute, what the fuck are you talking about?! Linux is a kernel, the rest is up to you. That's why geeks love it, it gives you choice for everything, and if you don't want choice, go with a professional distribution, like Android, or Ubuntu, or Mint.
Good example of this is the linux shell. It still acts like it's from the 90's because people don't work together to bring it together. It's still based on text output because everyone does things differently. Compare this to PowerShell which passes objects between programs. This allows different pieces of programs to work much better together, without need to define rules on how to parse some other programs output (which also usually fails in less used cases).
If you don't like the "Linux Shell" (it's called "Bash", learn what it is you are criticizing), then use some other shell that CAN pass objects between program
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I disagree. The Linux desktop has plenty of examples of great design. The problem is that they're directed at a completely different target audience.
Apple, particularly with iOS, designs towards being pleasant to the eye and immediately approachable by a new user. The Desktop Linux projects that try to do the same have much weaker designs, yes.
Where Desktop Linux does have good design is when they target a different set of users, and try to accomplish different goals, particularly speed of usage. High infor
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A minor point, but the Unix pipe is capable of passing any kind of data, not just text.
Powershell is OK but let's not kid ourselves about it being "object oriented" - that's just marketing speak.
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Another thing about the MacBook is its teflon coating - I've dropped it off my lap at least 3 times because of this.
Sure looks cool, but is impractical for a laptop.
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Good example of this is the linux shell. It still acts like it's from the 90's because people don't work together to bring it together. It's still based on text output because everyone does things differently. Compare this to PowerShell which passes objects between programs. This allows different pieces of programs to work much better together, without need to define rules on how to parse some other programs output (which also usually fails in less used cases).
And yet on Windows I often find myself powering up Cygwin, because some things are actually easier with the gnu toolset. For scripting I'd sooner use a scripting language than bash or PowerShell, and if I need to pass objects between programs then I'll either use COM or package the object in XML. Are there any PowerShell based tools out there that I might be passing objects to? No, I didn't think so, because PowerShell is solving a problem that was never actually there.
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This article has NOTHING to do with linux anyway.
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Windows 7 is the most beautiful Windows to date from Microsoft
Only if your idea of 'beauty' is a hideous default color scheme and putting as much disjointed crap on the screen as you can at one time.
OS X is clean and elegant, Windows 7 is a jumbled mess of rancid dog crap.
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the whole principle of Linux is that there's no unified look and [feel] team
You haven't heard of Gnome or KDE?
Since when have GNOME and KDE unified their look and feel?
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And this is why InterestingFella claims (Desktop) Linux users say design doesn't matter.
Functionality, performance and simplicity are part of the design. Just because some particular designers haven't achieved (or even try to) those goals doesn't mean it isn't design.
On a sidenote: (Score:3, Funny)
He was knighted with a sword made of translucent acryl.
*Tadum* *Crash* *Thud*
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.
Tip your waiter and try the fish.
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That's as wonderful as owning a pet elephant.
And I say this not in disrespect of Sir Jon. Design does matter. Usability helps with the potential usefulness of an item. In fact, bad usability marrs the usefulness of an item more than anything else. Apple understood this and slashed features for sake of usability.
Take for instance a door handle. It serves one purpose and one alone. Ornaments should not get in the way of that. I
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taking him from plain old 'Mr' straight to 'Sir' in one fell swoop
Is that why they use a sword? So that can make you a knight in one fell swoop?
Whatever. The British peers system is totally worthless anymore. Sure, congratulations are in order, but... why?
Proper use of "sir" (Score:5, Insightful)
The first comment already got this wrong, so a quick primer on how to use the title "sir".
He can be referred to as simply "Jonathan Ive", or "Jonathan", or "Jony" or whatever; you don't have to use the title.
You can call him "Sir Jonathan Ive" or "Sir Jonathan".
However, "Sir Ive" is not correct; honorifics of this sort don't work like "doctor" or "president". It'd be like calling the current monarch "Queen Windsor".
For women who are knighted, you'd simply substitute "Dame".
Re:Proper use of "sir" (Score:5, Funny)
You can call him "Sir Jonathan Ive" or "Sir Jonathan".
"Now you can call me Ray, or you can call me J, or you can call me Johnny, or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me Junie, or you can call me Junior; now you can call me Ray J, or you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ, or you can call me RJJ Jr." ultimately ending with, "but you doesn't hasta call me Johnson!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_J._Johnson [wikipedia.org]"
Despite whatever titles granted to him by watery tarts hurling scimitars, I guess folks will just call him whatever they like.
We got rid of the aristocracy (Score:3)
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We did? Then why are there four unemployed men wandering the country being addressed as "President _____"? And countless retired "Governor"s and "Senator"s and "General"s and "Admiral"s? While almost every university graduation ceremony involves someone walking away with the title "Doctor" despite never practicing medicine or pursuing grad-school studies? Just because they aren't assigned by order of a monarch doesn't mean these ar
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Are you a jaded teenager angry at Christmas because you didn't get a white iPhone?
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No. I am not a teenager, nor do I desire an iPhone.
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Proper use of Sir: "The queen is a wrinkled old bag and you are all tools for listening to her, Sirrahs." Seriously, who cares about the proper use of Sir? Nobody in the USA, where we don't have kings, queens, knights... or heroes.
From the Americans that I know, quite a few do. .
:-)
And Martin Luther King's family would disagree, as would the residents of Queens, New York, and all Batman fans on two grounds
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people with social skills
This is slashdot.
Sounds like a backroom deal . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Apple gives Britain an iPad app to run the country . . . Britain gives Apple a Knighthood . . .
. . . this was obviously an arranged exchange . . .
"Arise Sir Jonathan Ive"? (Score:5, Informative)
Source: royal.gov.uk [royal.gov.uk]
What a surprise! (Score:1, Insightful)
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To be fair, no one not a British Citizen can get a "real" knighthood. It's not like they slighted Bill giving him inferior honors, all Americans who've been knighted have "honorary knighthoods". It wouldn't due to let Americans vote in your House of Lords as just one example of why.
Dieter Rams (Score:3)
Why not Sir Dieter Rams? I mean, the designs are basically his...
Re:Dieter Rams (Score:5, Informative)
Why not Sir Dieter Rams? I mean, the designs are basically his...
First, what you are saying "the designs ares basically his" is nonsense. Second, there are many more iPods and iPhones sold than Braun radios. Third, he is German and lived and worked in German, so he is way down on the Queen's list. Fourth, he's got the Commanders Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany, which Jony Ive has very little chance to get, for about the same reason.
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In case you didn't know, the Queen mis German and one of the top things that soured Britain's view of Anazi Germany was their elimination of the aristocracy. In fact, that and the very effective and clever Nazi banking reforms are the primary reasons for the British anti-Nazi attitude.
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The Queen is German? Er, I think not. She is English, of course. You probably meant something else...(heritage perhaps?).
Oh, I see you said 'mis German'...perhaps I misunderstood...
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Dieter Rams and Ives were quite different. (Score:2)
Ives may have listed Rams as an influence, but Rams never ever put for before function.
I'ves did (or was pressured to)
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Wow! Check out the number of really stupid grammatical & punctuation mistakes WMF made here.
What a fucking idiot (or perhaps still under the influence of various NYE delights)
Sir Jonathan Ive is ABOVE Paul McCartney (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Sir Jonathan Ive is ABOVE Paul McCartney (Score:5, Informative)
Sir Jonathan Ive is a KBE.
To be exact, in the order of precedence, he is above Sir Paul McCarthney (who is an MBE)
Paul McCartney received the MBE along with the other Beatles in 1964. The MBE does not entitle the holder to call himself "Sir". McCartney was upgraded to full knighthood in 1996. McCartney and Michael Caine are actually knights bachelor which ranks above KBE. The confusion arises because they were both awarded non knight honours earlier.
The whole Order of Precedence (in England and Whales) is very complicated, and to an American, a bit silly.
The order of precedence in whales is blue, sperm, humpback....
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A KBE is a knight of an order of chivalry (the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire), and so out ranks all Knights Bachelor even when they additionally hold junior ranks in an order (such as MBE or CBE).
In fact Jonathan Ive like Paul McCartney already had an MBE.
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It's silly to us as well.
Regards, A Brit
The deuce you say! (Score:1)
Mr Ive was "hurt" by Mr Jobs taking credit for innovations that came from the design team.
wait, you mean Jobs isnt the angelic being everyone has made him out to be?
Archaic medieval honors (Score:3)
I would have been more impressed if he had turned it down.
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."
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Oh, am I sure that they do inquire first. It is intended as an honor and if by some chance I was offered one I would certainly turn it down politely and quietly. But, still, it is an archaic way to organize a system of government.
Yeah Thanks... (Score:2)
"taking the PC from the geek den into the living room of even the most painfully trendy fashionista.""
Yeah thanks.
But, but... (Score:2)
Kinghts aren't rare (Score:2)
There persists the impression that Kinghthood is some rare and impressive award - it isn't. Between the Birthday and New Years lists, a couple of thousand Knights are created each year, many for rather minor things. (Like 'services to the youth of Manchester' for a charity official.)
You can read more about the system, and download recent lists, here [direct.gov.uk].
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Employee of the month happens every month but when you or your friends nab it it's nice.
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You have confused the number of people who get an honour with the number who are made knights. In the NY list just published, 983 people got an honour of some sort; only 27 were made knights bachelor (the most common type of knight). Jony Ive was one of only two people made a KBE.
In addition, being made even an OBE is a pretty uncommon thing -- there are a couple of thousand awards each year, yes, but there are at least 40m people in the UK who are potentially capable of receiving an award, so the rate of a
A bit pretentious.... (Score:2)
Ive said 'I discovered at an early age that all I've ever wanted to do is design'
Bit pretentious talking about himself in the third person though... wonder why he called himself "Ive" though and not "Jonathan"?! ;)
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Many people would have been.
Re: (Score:2)
I am galvanized by the image of a horde of effeminate young men in paste-emblazoned oversized glasses mincing their way into battle to the tune of "Benny and the Jets".