Apple Deprecates Their JVM 451
Mortimer.CA writes "In some recent release notes Apple has deprecated their JVM: 'As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated.' In the past Sun (now Oracle) has always let Apple do this: 'Apple Computer supplies their own version of Java. Use the Software Update feature (available on the Apple menu) to check that you have the most up-to-date version of Java for your Mac.' I wonder how much heads-up Oracle was given for this change, and if the Java team has any code ready to go, or whether they'll have to ramp up porting for Mac OS 10.7 (aka 'Lion')."
So they are dropping another tech (Score:2, Insightful)
So they have dropped default support for flash, then java, now they just launched their app store.
This is really starting to look more and more like the iphone. I just hope they don't start dropping multitasking and third party software sources.
As long as users are able to install non-appstore apps, install flash and install java, I'm fine with it.
Similar to Flash (Score:5, Insightful)
This seems like a similar move to the obsoleting of Flash. Cross platform app development was useful when Apple was struggling to compete. Now Apple doesn't see any particular need for cross platform apps, because the breadth of app types is already covered by native Cocoa apps. They won't exclude Java in the way that they excluded Flash on the iPhone. But there's no need for them to spend development time on bundling it with the OS.
Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (Score:3, Insightful)
I still fall back to my various Linux boxen a lot but for the actual IDE, I find OSX does fulfill the so called 'ultimate developer's machine' - I actually know a former MS-SQL developer collegue who has converted because it does work.
Let's hope either OpenJDK or IcedTea can fill in the gaps...
The danger is that they are going to force people down the Lion/AppStore route on the desktop - and the size of the desktop user-base will probably surprise them and bite them where it hurts most, their wallet - not everything is iPhone/iPad
Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, with the talk of app stores, the ridiculous talk of macbook air's being the 'future of computing', and other things from yesterdays announcements, I will be keeping my eye closely on linux for the time being. I'm not sure I'm going to stay with Apple for my next computer. They seem to be going in a direction I'm not comfortable with.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:1, Insightful)
It looks like they don't want any non exclusively-for-apple developers. I'm glad Android is gaining momentum, and that MeeGo is soon to be released, so people have a choice of using open platforms.
Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (Score:2, Insightful)
In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware.
MacOS is actually based on the mach kernel, and not UNIX. /pedantic
The issue here is that java is full of security holes, and is being actively exploited in the wild. If you have a normal computer (ie a non-mac), then you can download & install the latest java version from sun/oracle.
But if you have a mac, you can't. Big brother Apple has decreed that mac users aren't smart enough to make their own decisions on installing updated versions java.
Your only choices are don't use java, or wait until Apple decides to release an updated version of java and hope you don't get pwned in the meantime.
Re:A move by Apple, or Oracle? (Score:4, Insightful)
This means that the Apple-produced runtime will not be maintained at the same level, and may be removed from future versions of Mac OS X.
Obvious reason: people aren't using the Apple-produced runtime in Mac Applications?
Applications developed in Objective-C / Cocoa are more specific to the OS X platform, providing Apple a competitive advantage when developers build their apps using Cocoa, instead of something portable like Java.
Not in Apple's best interest for Mac apps to be developed using Java.
Not only can they be run on other platforms, but Java-based apps may not conform to Apple UI design guidelines
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:4, Insightful)
No, they simply depreciated the 'Apple' version of Java, meaning it will probably be discontinued in Lion. I suspect that due to the changes in ownership over Java that they will now handle things like everyone else and get their java from Oracle. They aren't 'dropping' Java or anything of the sort. You'll simply go to Oracle to install it rather than getting it out of the box.
I would imagine Oracle asked for this, or Apple simply decided it wasn't worth the hassle of maintaining their own java machine.
Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyone who wants Java can install it. Oracle don't release a Mac version right now because previously Apple have done that work for them. But that'll no doubt change if Oracle are still wanting to promote Java. And even if not, GPL says someone else will.
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't need to create an Installer, they need to create an entire port to a new operating system. The low-level threading and memory management, the GUI.. who wants their Java apps to be running under X11 on Mac?
Re:Similar to Flash (Score:3, Insightful)
There are a lot of custom, in-house apps developed with Java specifically to handle cross-platform issues.
We couldn't have done a lot of our apps if we had to write separate versions for Windows, Linux, and Mac.
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (Score:5, Insightful)
In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware. But Java is still one of the top languages on the planet, so if Apple really stops keeping it up to date that could put a nail in that coffin. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Apple Store has a big pile of Java back there...
Apple doesn't maintain a distribution of python, but you're still able to run Python on OS X. The only thing that's really going to change is that it won't be Apple doing the work, it will be Oracle.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:5, Insightful)
And after removing Flash and Java and publishing the "We want the web to be open" public letter Apple still requires Quicktime to watch videos on their own website. Hypocrites.
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:3, Insightful)
thing is apple did the first port, not SUN. I don't think that apple will graciously give there JRE code-base to oracle.
So, is this a reason to drop Apple hardware? (Score:3, Insightful)
We have rather a lot of internally-developed applications in Java, and some of them are substantial. Since there's not a hope in hell of us porting millions of lines of Java code to Objective-C, no matter how much Apple spins things, should we be considering saying in future that Apple hardware is no longer a supported platform and that all users will have to migrate to Linux or Windows on their desktops and laptops instead? (While it is possible to use Apple hardware to run non-OSX, there's no real point in buying it specially for the purpose of running non-OSX when other hardware with a lower price premium will do a perfectly adequate job of it.)
Mind you, adequate availability of a JVM for the platform from another vendor (e.g., Oracle) could well be an acceptable solution. It's just a shame that the announcement is not clearer in this respect. But then it's not exactly like Apple are very good at providing proper support for developers who aren't targeting Jobs's latest platform du jour.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:5, Insightful)
By which you mean the JVM? It has nothing to do with "internet standards" ffs.
You do know that 'Java' is to 'JavaScript' as 'car' is to 'carpet'. Beyond a few shared letters for early buzzword compliance, and things like the Rhino interpreter, there is no real relationship between the two.
All those sexy HTML5/JavaScript apps have to be written in programming languages and hosted on servers. And plenty of people are building on top of the JVM. Large chunks of both Twitter and Foursquare are written in Scala, a JVM language. Why? Oh, something about how it is good for long-running processes due to something ridiculous like a million engineer-hours going into JVM development.
If we should get rid of technology simply because it is old, let's get rid of C. No, wait, let's not. Because it is a useful and practical technology, and we should base our technical decisions on technical merit not on buzzword compliance and what appeals to Web 2.0 shiny-seekers.
people... relax. (Score:1, Insightful)
Java is not going away for SERVER SIDE development. What will replace it? .NET? (joke)
Apple isn't going to 'stop supporting Java'.
Re:watch oracle do nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
Watch Apple not care.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:5, Insightful)
Or they looked at the Android lawsuit and said "Hmm, I don't *think* we're breaking any laws, but why take chances?" Oracle is playing a different game with Java than Sun did and personally I'd want to stay out of it as much as possible. There's lots of reasons they may have done this and with ~8 months notice Oracle has plenty of time to build their own JVM.
Re:Patents (usually) wouldn't worry Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
And all along I thought it was because it just wasn't ready for production use.
The BSDs are still working on getting ZFS good enough to use. Everyone I knew that tried it on OS X said it was shit.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:3, Insightful)
You might want to go read up on Grand Central Dispatch.
Re:people... relax. (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple isn't going to 'stop supporting Java'.
Actually, if the JVM goes back to being a 3rd party system on OS X, which it seems like it will, this is exactly what they've done.
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think they will because I believe that Apple would rather developers use Objective-C over Java for OSX development for the very same reasons they would rather developers use Objective-C over Flash for iOS development.
Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think a lot of Apple devs have been asking for this anyway. I usually stick with the "tried and true" but my colleagues were very vocal about Apple being slow to bring the new features for Java into their JDK.
Now that these people finally got part of what they wanted, let's see if Oracle or more likely OpenJDK steps in and gives them the rest. I personally look forward to helping bring Cocoa to OpenJDK and hope I'm not alone.
Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with Unix defined as a marketing buzzword is that it leaves out a lot of important details that actual Unix users care about.
It allows for a degree of "inconsistency and chaos" that Mac Zealots would eviscerate Linux for.
Re:App Store (Score:3, Insightful)
However, if they pull through an App Store for the Mac, which doesn't even have the "it's on a Phone" excuse, they will have effectively succeeded in solving the 20+ year old problem of how to actually sell "shareware" aka "Free/Premium".
Wait for the other shoe to drop... (Score:4, Insightful)
The $64,000 question is whether Oracle will now start offering a Java download for OS X - if so, then the Mac will have the same status as other platforms, where you get your Java VM from Oracle. Since Apple's Java releases have tended to lag quite a way behind Sun in the past that might not be a bad thing (although the downside is that the horrible Java auto-updater might make an appearance).
OTOH, if Jobs is really determined to turn the Mac into an oversized iPad that can only run native software then, yes, there will have to be a bit of an exodous. However - there's no reason to decide right now (its not like Java is going to vanish from Mac tomorrow - and you weren't expecting the next version of Java to appear on Mac anytime soon, anyway).
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:4, Insightful)
this insightfull?
So now Oracle will develop the JVM for Apple.
It is plausible enough that oracle won't, or will take so much time / bungle some stuff so bad that java on mac essentially becomes a no-no long enough to drive everyone to objective-C. Given the fact that java these days is mostly about server-side stuff and (the language anyway) android, i dont see any reason why oracle would hurry with an OS X JVM (they mostly care about their own server stack anyway, and OS X isnt anywhere near significant in server-world)
FYI Google doesn't care for Java, so stop sucking Google's dick.
Google runs TONS of their shit on java, heaps of their server-side apps are completely running in java. If any mega-corp cares about java (aside from oracle themselves), it would be google
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:2, Insightful)
I was going to write a detailed post on exactly what is wrong with that letter, but gave up after a paragraph. It's too simple to devote that many words to explaining: It's just a lie, pure and simple. Apple don't really want the web to be open, or anything else for that matter - they are one of the most closed, proprietary companies in the technology sector. Even more than Microsoft, and on a level of control-seeking usually found only in mobile telephony. They just lied in order to justify their purely commercial desire to kill off flash support - and they have plenty of reasons, not least of which is that the sales of 99c and $1.49 casual games (eg, angry birds) in the app store would be severely impacted by the availability of a catalog of tens of thousands of already-released flash games.
Re:watch oracle do nothing (Score:1, Insightful)
Watch Apple not care.
People who use Macs, and need to log into Juniper's SSL VPN solution will care, as the software needs a JVM to work. So does the web interface of a lot Brocade and EMC stuff.
While Java desktop apps may not be popular, there's a lot of stuff out there that does need it.
Front-ends sharing a back-end (Score:3, Insightful)
cross-platform Java development and Mac development were different enough that if you were using Java it was because you wanted it to run on other platforms and therefore didn't care if it looked like a good Mac app.
You, like numerous other Slashdot users, appear to have forgotten the model-view-controller [wikipedia.org] or multi-tier [wikipedia.org] paradigm. An application is split between a front-end, which interacts with the user, and a back-end, which interacts with the data. Ideally, an application would have a separate front-end per platform and a common back-end. I have applied this philosophy in one of my video game projects: the physics of the game world are the same in the PC version and the Game Boy Advance version because they build from the same source tree, but the front-end is very different. But in order for this to work, all platforms have to share a common language in which the back-end can be written.
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:3, Insightful)
Something tells me your missing the point.
No other company did the work to take the browser from KHTML to webkit, which is now used in almost every phone OS, including Android & RIM.
Apple gets shit all the time for being closed. They're not always. Examples: http://www.apple.com/opensource/ [apple.com]
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is, there is no other implementation of Java for Mac OS. If they were turning the maintenance over to Oracle, they would have said so.
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure they would, but is it very likely that people are going to start doing OSX only development? Apple doesn't really have that much marketshare, and as this very incident once again shows, it's dangerous to trust them.
If Mac loses Java, then Mac loses Java programs, not gain native ones. And frankly, Mac can ill afford to lose software.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:1, Insightful)
Apple licensed the JVM from Sun/Oracle. They don't have to worry about Patents. Google has to worry because they did not license it for Android.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a GOOD THING as now Mac's will have a better supported and up-to-date JVM and updates should come quick and fast compared to Apple's sluggish almost apathetic attitude towards releases.
Really? Where are these magical JVMs going to come from?
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:3, Insightful)
...and Steve is probably itching to reinvent UIs again and tell us we don't need overlapping windows and a menu bar after all (both integral to desktop OSs up to now).
This alone should be a big blinking clue that the path you're wandering down isn't making that much sense.
Making OSX work like iOS right now is a good deal more work than just mucking around with UI calls. You have to disable running of interpreted languages, completely sandbox each app, disable making files 'executable', and a whole slew of other things that the OS in its current design philosophy is taking for granted. It's stupid and it makes no sense to do that when iOS is already there.
The best clue you're ever going to get that they're headed that way is if they release a 'netbook' or an iMac running iOS. Until that happens, it's just earn-an-insightful-mod fiction.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:1, Insightful)
They weren't taking any chances. Google isn't in trouble for using Java, they're in trouble for using Java without licensing the JVM. Apple had a license.
I know this is hard for many Slashdotters to understand, but companies like Oracle are not irrational actors suing people at random for evil shits and giggles -- they have a reason and a strategy, and it is not hard to predict whether they will or won't be interested in suing someone.
Re:So they are dropping another tech (Score:3, Insightful)
Snow Leopard is $29. Really, there is no excuse to still be on 10.5. The whole point of making Snow Leopard cheap was so that everyone would be on the same release.
If you have an Intel Mac you should be on 10.6. Period.
You can give me 29$, since you feel so strongly about it.
Re:Plenty of heads up. (Score:3, Insightful)
Qt is in most every way better than Java for client-side graphical application development. However, Qt is not completely free, requires that your app be compiled for each platform it is distributed for, and does not provide access to Java libraries. The last reason there is why we use it at my work.