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Apple Deprecates Their JVM 451

Posted by CmdrTaco
from the zomg-i'm-posting-a-java-story dept.
Mortimer.CA writes "In some recent release notes Apple has deprecated their JVM: 'As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated.' In the past Sun (now Oracle) has always let Apple do this: 'Apple Computer supplies their own version of Java. Use the Software Update feature (available on the Apple menu) to check that you have the most up-to-date version of Java for your Mac.' I wonder how much heads-up Oracle was given for this change, and if the Java team has any code ready to go, or whether they'll have to ramp up porting for Mac OS 10.7 (aka 'Lion')."
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Apple Deprecates Their JVM

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  • I wonder how much heads-up Oracle was given for this change

    Even if they if only just found out now, Lion is around 8 months away. How much time do they need to create an installer?

    • by jonabbey (2498) * <jonabbey@ganymeta.org> on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:12AM (#33972468) Homepage

      They don't need to create an Installer, they need to create an entire port to a new operating system. The low-level threading and memory management, the GUI.. who wants their Java apps to be running under X11 on Mac?

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by krazytekn0 (1069802)
        Really? I mean doesn't that seem a little extreme, shouldn't it still work pretty close to the previous versions of OS X? Seriously just asking,
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by JonySuede (1908576)

          thing is apple did the first port, not SUN. I don't think that apple will graciously give there JRE code-base to oracle.

        • by kthreadd (1558445) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:27AM (#33972632)
          Java on the Mac have always been maintained by Apple, they licensed it about fifteen years ago from Sun. There has never been a Sun Java for Macs. I don't know how much code is going back to Sun/Oracle but in worst case that may be nothing at all. The main problem is that Java by itself has no support for things like the Mac Aqua UI, that's all additions made by Apple. In the late 90's when the Mac wasn't going well Apple decided to license Java and fix those things since Sun wasn't likely to put much time and effort on it. It's actually really good and well done.
          • by King_TJ (85913)

            Unlike the Windows versions of Java, you aren't regularly harassed to install "Yahoo Toolbar", or "Google Chrome" or some other piece of software along with every single update they try to push out to you!

    • by recoiledsnake (879048) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:25AM (#33972604)

      From the Mac App Store guidelines:

      2.24

              Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected

  • by ciaran_o_riordan (662132) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @08:50AM (#33972270) Homepage

    Oracle's patent moves probably didn't help, but Apple's normally not a company to be afraid of software patents - they have a big enough portfolio of their own.

    http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Java_and_patents [swpat.org]

    (Phone patents are another beast - they're held by companies that Apple often doesn't have as long a history of dealing with and they don't yet have patent non-aggression pacts)

    • by rwa2 (4391) * on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:06AM (#33972422) Homepage Journal

      Meh, I could see them possibly doing this to strengthen Oracle's suit against Google's Dalvik VM in Android.

      Or possibly Apple wants to introduce the straightjacket-in-a-walled-garden appstore approach to their desktop in addition to iOS, so they're starting to make moves to discourage the distribution of portable Java apps the same way they inhibit Flash on iOS.

      Other than that, seems like a bunch of maneuverings between companies and technologies I don't really care all that much about. But at least hopefully it'll keep the fanbois who like chatting about soap opera politics preoccupied for a bit.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by tlhIngan (30335)

      Oracle's patent moves probably didn't help, but Apple's normally not a company to be afraid of software patents - they have a big enough portfolio of their own.

      http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Java_and_patents [swpat.org]

      (Phone patents are another beast - they're held by companies that Apple often doesn't have as long a history of dealing with and they don't yet have patent non-aggression pacts)

      MacOS X will probably be using J2SE, which the Sun/Oracle Java patent licenses will allow. Since Apple ported the Sun JVM, it would be

  • So they have dropped default support for flash, then java, now they just launched their app store.

    This is really starting to look more and more like the iphone. I just hope they don't start dropping multitasking and third party software sources.
    As long as users are able to install non-appstore apps, install flash and install java, I'm fine with it.

    • by Superken7 (893292)

      with drop default support I meant "not installed by default", could also mean stopped supporting, I'm not sure

      • by DJRumpy (1345787) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:09AM (#33972440)

        No, they simply depreciated the 'Apple' version of Java, meaning it will probably be discontinued in Lion. I suspect that due to the changes in ownership over Java that they will now handle things like everyone else and get their java from Oracle. They aren't 'dropping' Java or anything of the sort. You'll simply go to Oracle to install it rather than getting it out of the box.

        I would imagine Oracle asked for this, or Apple simply decided it wasn't worth the hassle of maintaining their own java machine.

        • by DrgnDancer (137700) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:28AM (#33972648) Homepage

          Or they looked at the Android lawsuit and said "Hmm, I don't *think* we're breaking any laws, but why take chances?" Oracle is playing a different game with Java than Sun did and personally I'd want to stay out of it as much as possible. There's lots of reasons they may have done this and with ~8 months notice Oracle has plenty of time to build their own JVM.

        • by jtdennis (77869)

          this is good for the end user IMO. I remember sometime over the last year Apple was bit with a security hole by including an older version of Flash in an update. Their Java version also usually lags behind the current releases. By not including both the end user will be able to update them more frequently or not have them installed at all if they don't use it. I can see people that don't have a need for Java at all.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by M. Baranczak (726671)

          The problem is, there is no other implementation of Java for Mac OS. If they were turning the maintenance over to Oracle, they would have said so.

    • by zlogic (892404) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:17AM (#33972530)

      And after removing Flash and Java and publishing the "We want the web to be open" public letter Apple still requires Quicktime to watch videos on their own website. Hypocrites.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:27AM (#33972626)

        Other media players will probably support HTTP Live Streaming in a couple months. It's not like it's a proprietary format or anything- it's just a continuously updating MPEG-2 file sitting on a server. Quicktime continuously checks that file for updates and downloads just the new parts when they get uploaded. I'd rather they use that than Adobe's proprietary streaming format or Real's proprietary streaming format.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Funny story: in order to watch Apple's live stream of the "Back to the Mac" event yesterday, I had use my 1st gen iPod touch. This despite the fact that i have a macbook sitting on the same network. Why? because it required Snow Leopard to stream. Their 2 year old general purpose operating system can't "handle" the stream but their 4 year old mp3 player can? Yeah Apple cares so much about its "real" OS

    • You are right.... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by recoiledsnake (879048) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:26AM (#33972616)

      From the Mac App Store guidelines:

      2.24
              Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected

      Looks like you're right.

    • by WankersRevenge (452399) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:48AM (#33972794)

      This is not a sign of lockdown ... java support on Macs having been drying up since Apple deprecated the Java-Cocoa bridge years ago. Nevermind it took them two years to release Java 6 which required users to have 64bit intel boxes. So, if you were doing any sort of Java desktop work (yes, this does exist), you were stuck on Java 5. If you were doing any server side work, you'd need to install SoyLatte to use the updated class libraries, nevermind dealing with performance issues from moving from JVM to JVM.

      This is a GOOD THING as now Mac's will have a better supported and up-to-date JVM and updates should come quick and fast compared to Apple's sluggish almost apathetic attitude towards releases.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by jonabbey (2498) *

        This is a GOOD THING as now Mac's will have a better supported and up-to-date JVM and updates should come quick and fast compared to Apple's sluggish almost apathetic attitude towards releases.

        Really? Where are these magical JVMs going to come from?

  • It's kind of funny to read the definition of deprecate:
    In manner that deprecates; insulting; belittling - to express disapproval of; to recommend against use of; to pray against!

    And then read how they are enabling 'Sudden Termination' and 'Garbage Collection' - take THAT JAVA!
  • by samkass (174571) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @08:55AM (#33972314) Homepage Journal

    In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware. But Java is still one of the top languages on the planet, so if Apple really stops keeping it up to date that could put a nail in that coffin. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Apple Store has a big pile of Java back there...

    • by ceejayoz (567949) <cj@ceejayoz.com> on Thursday October 21, 2010 @08:58AM (#33972336) Homepage Journal

      This dev is more concerned about Minecraft not working...

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by EricTheRed (5613)

      I still fall back to my various Linux boxen a lot but for the actual IDE, I find OSX does fulfill the so called 'ultimate developer's machine' - I actually know a former MS-SQL developer collegue who has converted because it does work.

      Let's hope either OpenJDK or IcedTea can fill in the gaps...

      The danger is that they are going to force people down the Lion/AppStore route on the desktop - and the size of the desktop user-base will probably surprise them and bite them where it hurts most, their wallet - not e

      • I personally didn't find Xcode that impressive (If that's the IDE you are referring to). The one thing I really miss from when I used my MBP is TextMate, it's simply a brilliant piece of software. I wouldn't quite call it an IDE but calling it an editor doesn't seem to do it justice so I won't attempt to classify it.
    • by FictionPimp (712802) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:01AM (#33972360) Homepage

      Honestly, with the talk of app stores, the ridiculous talk of macbook air's being the 'future of computing', and other things from yesterdays announcements, I will be keeping my eye closely on linux for the time being. I'm not sure I'm going to stay with Apple for my next computer. They seem to be going in a direction I'm not comfortable with.

      • Re:App Store (Score:3, Insightful)

        by TaoPhoenix (980487)

        However, if they pull through an App Store for the Mac, which doesn't even have the "it's on a Phone" excuse, they will have effectively succeeded in solving the 20+ year old problem of how to actually sell "shareware" aka "Free/Premium".

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware.

      MacOS is actually based on the mach kernel, and not UNIX. /pedantic

      The issue here is that java is full of security holes, and is being actively exploited in the wild. If you have a normal computer (ie a non-mac), then you can download & install the latest java version from sun/oracle.

      But if you have a mac, you can't. B

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        UNIX is a specification, not an implementation. Mac OS X 10.5 onwards on Intel are UNIX 03 certified /pedantic

      • by beelsebob (529313) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:23AM (#33972582)

        MacOS is actually based on the mach kernel, and not UNIX. /pedantic

        Mac OS X is actually based on the mach kernel, which, along with OS X's userland is a certified implementation of UNIX. /pedantic

      • MacOS is actually based on the mach kernel, and not UNIX. /pedantic

        That's not pedantic, that's confused. Linux might be (pedantically) a specific kernel, but UNIX isn't. Unix is a set of higher level standards, and OSX conforms, and is officially registered as a version of UNIX.

        http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm [opengroup.org]

        Unlike Linux, there is no way that OSX is not UNIX, including by what kernel it uses.

        Big brother Apple has decreed that mac users aren't smart enough to make their own decisions on

    • by BasilBrush (643681) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:10AM (#33972454)

      Anyone who wants Java can install it. Oracle don't release a Mac version right now because previously Apple have done that work for them. But that'll no doubt change if Oracle are still wanting to promote Java. And even if not, GPL says someone else will.

      • by Bill_the_Engineer (772575) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:58AM (#33972896)

        I think a lot of Apple devs have been asking for this anyway. I usually stick with the "tried and true" but my colleagues were very vocal about Apple being slow to bring the new features for Java into their JDK.

        Now that these people finally got part of what they wanted, let's see if Oracle or more likely OpenJDK steps in and gives them the rest. I personally look forward to helping bring Cocoa to OpenJDK and hope I'm not alone.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by sveinungkv (793083)

          I personally look forward to helping bring Cocoa to OpenJDK and hope I'm not alone.

          The BSD-port [java.net] of OpenJDK already run on OS X. I don't know if they support using Cocoa yet but their mailing list would probably be a nice place to start looking for others that are interested in working on Cocoa support in OpenJDK.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware. But Java is still one of the top languages on the planet, so if Apple really stops keeping it up to date that could put a nail in that coffin. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Apple Store has a big pile of Java back there...

      The Linux foundation doesn't develop a Linux JVM.
      Microsoft's JVM was awful and incompatible.

      Both those platforms are still widely used for Java development and deployment, in spite of depending on a third-party JVM.

    • by BarryJacobsen (526926) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:15AM (#33972506) Homepage

      In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware. But Java is still one of the top languages on the planet, so if Apple really stops keeping it up to date that could put a nail in that coffin. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Apple Store has a big pile of Java back there...

      Apple doesn't maintain a distribution of python, but you're still able to run Python on OS X. The only thing that's really going to change is that it won't be Apple doing the work, it will be Oracle.

  • As I use my Mac as my primary java development environment (ok still on 10.5.x but about to finally go to snow leopard), this does say, wtf is going to happen after this latest update?

    I.e. is Snoracle going to support macs directly or are we going to wait for OpenJDK etc?

  • Way to go, Apple. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by psergiu (67614)

    With this, Mac OS X users get all their OS updates automatically from one place. Too bad Microsoft & the various BSD & Linux vendors are not able to do this too.

    PS: HP does this too for the HP-UX Java releases (except for the automatic updates): http://www.hp.com/go/java [hp.com]

    PPS: Java IS part of the OS because without Java you cannot run Minecraft. :-)

    • by IBBoard (1128019)

      Huhwhatnow? Am I just reading that wrong? Apple's custom rebuild of Java was available from the update centre, the same as most other Apple bits. Windows users have to have yet another background updater running. Linux users get Java from their repos (the same as any sane person) and get updates automatically, the same as Apple used to.

      I'm still confused by the message. Is Apple ditching Java altogether, or just is custom rebuild?

    • They are just moving it to the App store, relax everyone.

    • With this, Mac OS X users get all their OS updates automatically from one place. Too bad Microsoft & the various BSD & Linux vendors are not able to do this too.

      Did you ever actually use linux? Any linux distribution from this decade has a centralized installation/upgrade mechanism such as apt-get, etc. This is one huge usability advantage over windows, that makes linux in my opinion much more usable than windows at the moment. Plus, it is an open mechanism, because if you want a software that is not provided by your distribution you can add a new repository source and it will get auto-updated just like all the rest.

  • Who knows whether this is the result of some move on Oracle's part, rather than something Apple have suddenly decided to do?

    • by mysidia (191772) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:06AM (#33972420)

      This means that the Apple-produced runtime will not be maintained at the same level, and may be removed from future versions of Mac OS X.

      Obvious reason: people aren't using the Apple-produced runtime in Mac Applications?

      Applications developed in Objective-C / Cocoa are more specific to the OS X platform, providing Apple a competitive advantage when developers build their apps using Cocoa, instead of something portable like Java.

      Not in Apple's best interest for Mac apps to be developed using Java.

      Not only can they be run on other platforms, but Java-based apps may not conform to Apple UI design guidelines

    • by Kjella (173770)

      I suspect a bit of both. Apple is pushing java out of the mobile space with iOS, and probably wants to set themselves up as controlling the Cocoa toolkit that runs on everything from iPhones via iPads to OS X to OS X Server. As long as you stay in the Apple sphere, of course.

      However, I don't think the timing with Oracle is coincidental either, with the Android lawsuit and so on I think the see the opportunity to "sink" java as a development platform. Microsoft pushes .NET, Apple pushes Cocoa, Google pushes

  • Similar to Flash (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BasilBrush (643681) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:00AM (#33972346)

    This seems like a similar move to the obsoleting of Flash. Cross platform app development was useful when Apple was struggling to compete. Now Apple doesn't see any particular need for cross platform apps, because the breadth of app types is already covered by native Cocoa apps. They won't exclude Java in the way that they excluded Flash on the iPhone. But there's no need for them to spend development time on bundling it with the OS.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jonabbey (2498) *

      There are a lot of custom, in-house apps developed with Java specifically to handle cross-platform issues.

      We couldn't have done a lot of our apps if we had to write separate versions for Windows, Linux, and Mac.

  • Unless Oracle steps up and makes Mac OS X a primary platform for JDK releases, this might be rather annoying. Ultimately, I might be forced to do development on Linux or Windows. That would blow.

    But maybe this decision encourages some group to package a kick ass JDK, and have more timely updates and developer snapshots... one can dream.

    WIth the App store and Flash removal, I'm not keeping my hopes up though.

  • Java maintained by Apple has always been WAY behind what everybody else is using. I'm glad Apple is going to ditch it and leave it up to others.

      Flash and Java will probably end up in the new Mac App store which will mean automatic updates but via the vendor that supplies them.

    My reaction to this is one of mild joy and "whatever".

    • Java maintained by Apple has always been WAY behind what everybody else is using. I'm glad Apple is going to ditch it and leave it up to others.

      The odd thing is, with the release in question (Update 3), Apple's JVM is 1.6.0_22, exactly the same as the latest release for Linux/Solaris/Winows. This is the first time I can remember that that was the case.

  • tell apple they dont get java if they dont use a standard installer.
  • Why was Apple allowed to provide their own JVM software and Microsoft was sued for making their own JVM?

    • Re:I'm curious... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Thomasje (709120) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:21AM (#33972564)
      Sun did not sue Microsoft for making their own JVM; they sued Microsoft for making an incompatible JVM, while using the Java trademark -- in direct and deliberate violation of the Java licensing terms.

      In short, Microsoft feared and sought to impede the development of network effects that cross-platform technology like Netscape Navigator and Java might enjoy and use to challenge Microsoft's monopoly. Another internal Microsoft document indicates that the plan was not simply to blunt Java/browser cross-platform momentum, but to destroy the cross-platform threat entirely, with the "Strategic Objective" described as to "Kill cross-platform Java by grow[ing] the polluted Java market."

      More... [wikipedia.org]

    • by Graymalkin (13732)

      Microsoft's J++ was not fully compatible with the Java spec at the time and introduced it's own class libraries in the standard Java namespaces IIRC. They claimed their JVM was compatible with Sun's Java even though it really wasn't. If you targeted J++ your app wouldn't run in any other Java environments. Apple's Java implementation is a full implementation of the J2SE spec and all the Cocoa bridging stuff was properly labeled as extenstions. If you write a J2SE app on Apple's JVM it will run on any other

    • Both Apple and Microsoft were commercial Java licensees. Apple's JVMs included all of the standard classes, plus some additional hooks to Mac-specific functionality that were clearly packaged as extensions (com.apple.*, quicktime.*, etc.). Microsoft's VM deliberately left out core functionality -- JNI for native calls and RMI for remote procedure calls -- and disguised Windows-specific calls as if they were typical Java calls, which could result in Java code that would only run on Windows.

      I don't think it

    • by itsdapead (734413)

      It isn't Apple's "own" JVM software - it is still the Sun/Oracle JVM. Apple maintains the OS X port/distribution of Java.

    • by LWATCDR (28044)

      Easy.
      Apple followed the rules. The did extend Java but did it in way that didn't break portability.
      Microsoft made an incompatible Java in violation of the agreement with Sun. They added all sorts of "windows only" features.

  • What about servers? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by andymadigan (792996) <amadigan.gmail@com> on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:16AM (#33972520)
    I don't see much use of Java on the desktop these days (aside from a few specific applications), but I certainly see it used a lot in server environments. I suppose Apple will also apply this to OS X server? So if you want an Apple server you can't run the applications you've been running up to this point? They're going to shrink their already small server share.

    Also, Slashdot, I set this account to use the "classic" interface, why are you making me click buttons to see comments now?! I just want to see the page, not have to keep clicking "show more". This comment entry box is terrible too, the "Reply" button is too close to the box itself.
    • by EricTheRed (5613)

      Rarely on the desktop myself... & for me that amounts to Netbeans. The rest is server-side, which fortunately reads as Linux. However for development it's a problem.

    • by Fnkmaster (89084) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @11:48AM (#33974382)

      Slashdot briefly seemed to have forced everybody to the "Dynamic Discussion" mode this morning. I went to my account settings, turned it off, and it still showed up as on. Then a half hour later, I went back to Slashdot and everything seems to be working with the classic interface again.

      Anyway, it seems to have been a glitch in the matrix and all is back to normal now. An interface that only shows score-5 comments and makes you click 100 times to see more comments is just horrible. I hope that's not what "dynamic discussion" mode is. Ugh.

  • by dkf (304284) <donal.k.fellows@manchester.ac.uk> on Thursday October 21, 2010 @09:23AM (#33972584) Homepage

    We have rather a lot of internally-developed applications in Java, and some of them are substantial. Since there's not a hope in hell of us porting millions of lines of Java code to Objective-C, no matter how much Apple spins things, should we be considering saying in future that Apple hardware is no longer a supported platform and that all users will have to migrate to Linux or Windows on their desktops and laptops instead? (While it is possible to use Apple hardware to run non-OSX, there's no real point in buying it specially for the purpose of running non-OSX when other hardware with a lower price premium will do a perfectly adequate job of it.)

    Mind you, adequate availability of a JVM for the platform from another vendor (e.g., Oracle) could well be an acceptable solution. It's just a shame that the announcement is not clearer in this respect. But then it's not exactly like Apple are very good at providing proper support for developers who aren't targeting Jobs's latest platform du jour.

    • by itsdapead (734413) on Thursday October 21, 2010 @10:09AM (#33973022)

      The $64,000 question is whether Oracle will now start offering a Java download for OS X - if so, then the Mac will have the same status as other platforms, where you get your Java VM from Oracle. Since Apple's Java releases have tended to lag quite a way behind Sun in the past that might not be a bad thing (although the downside is that the horrible Java auto-updater might make an appearance).

      OTOH, if Jobs is really determined to turn the Mac into an oversized iPad that can only run native software then, yes, there will have to be a bit of an exodous. However - there's no reason to decide right now (its not like Java is going to vanish from Mac tomorrow - and you weren't expecting the next version of Java to appear on Mac anytime soon, anyway).

  • Maybe Ellison wants the official JVM to be the only such one.

  • This comes the same day that users report the new MacBook Air doesn't have Flash preinstalled; and while you can install it yourself, Safari doesn't prompt you to do so (just displays a generic "missing plugin" over Flash content and ads).

    Call it a smart business move, a deluded fantasy, or anything in between, but Apple seems to have decided to play hardball with middleware developers. Clearly they think they support all the standards and APIs anyone could ever need, and with the opening of the Mac App Sto

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