Bell Atlantic/Mac/ADSL Crusade Fails 106
Breakdown writes "About a month ago Slashdot reported on Steve Godun attempting to get Bell South to provide ADSL service to any type of Macintosh. At the time Bell Atlantic released a statement saying that by mid-February they hoped to have some sort of Macintosh ADSL solution. The mid-Feb. date has come and gone and Godun has ended his crusade. You can read his 5th and final installment of articles relating to his Mission. "
Sorry, check a little deeper (Score:1)
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth...
OpenTransport is the ONLY way to get DHCP on a Macintosh out-of-the-box. And OpenTransport IS the tool to give you the MAC address (how much more unified and reliable do you need to be?). Command-U to User Mode, select Advanced, and click on the "info" button...so simple even YOU might be able to do it. Next question, please.
That sucks (Score:1)
It's sad to see BA treating their customers like this.
Ummm.. name correction please (Score:1)
The biggest problem we've had is that the Mac doesn't implement CIDR properly (so it chokes if it get's handed an address ending in 255 or 0 via DHCP).
For those who won't read the article (Score:1)
OK, in summary:
You didn't read the article, did you? (Score:1)
Steve Godun is "whining" about that fact that BellAtlantic will "certify" that their ADSL will work for an iMac, but not any non-iMac Mac, and can provide no technical reasons why that should be the case.
Here's a quote from the part 4 of the series:
I asked him: If an iMac owner called BA for an ADSL line, would BA support him?
YES, was the answer.
I then asked: If the installation guy came to the iMac owner's house and found that the little sticker on the side of the iMac (with the MAC address on it) had been removed, would that customer still be supported?
YES, was the answer.
Next: If that's the case and the sticker were removed, then how would BA's installation guy get the hardware address for that iMac?
I was told that he would have to use "some kind of software" to get the hardware address.
Finally: Okay, so if an installation technician comes to an iMac owner's house and has to use a software package to get the hardware address, how is that any different from the same scenario but substituting a regular Mac for the iMac, for which that same software would yield the same result?
The answer: Only the iMac has been tested so that's the only computer BA can support.
And another one:
Side Note: With this in mind I decided to perform an experiment a few hours later, just to see how accurate Kevin's statements were. I called Bell Atlantic in the guise of a neophyte Windows user. I gave a false name and other information, but gave them a phone number which I knew was within their ADSL service area.
When I was asked what kind of computer, I told them "some kind of Windows thing". I was asked who manufactured the computer, and I told them that "a friend of mine put it together from some parts he had left over from when he upgraded".
I was then asked if it was running Windows 98 or Windows 3.1 and I played dumb. "Is there a button in the corner that says START?" I was asked. "Yeah, that's right," I replied. "Okay, that's probably Windows 95." I was then told that installation would be no problem, when would I like to have the guy come in, etc.
So they can apparently "certify" any scratchbuilt PC running Windows9x, but they can't "certify" a non-iMac Power Mac. Maybe Linux users don't find dragging out the ol' dual-boot system to get their ADSL, but you shouldn't have to. That is the point of the whole ordeal Godun had gone through.
Godun even points out that he's received e-mail on this topic from people who are getting ADSL for their non-iMac Macs -- from BellAtlantic, even! -- and suggests that these people, since they're technologically savvy enough to get it done themselves, be used as a quick-and-dirty beta-testing program. BA replied that they'd look into it; maybe that signals some sort of progress...
Jay (=
ADSL From US West (Score:1)
Since that time, I have gotten static IPs, hubs, switched, etc.. nothing has ever been a problem, and they have always been there when I needed technical support. They even modified their DNS (reverse name) servers manually when the automated proceedure couldn't do what I needed.
Congratulations for US Worst.
--Mark
hello apple? (Score:1)
the knock on free s/w is that it isn't supported. apple's a big company, where's their support?
they could do something - are they? if not, why not? any apple people care to respond?
That's your problem... (Score:1)
changes as needed.
Besides, you're paying less than $60US a month
for T1 download speeds... I wouldn't complain.
I told the powers-that-be that IPMasquerade in it's many forms would be all around (hell, I'd do it myself). That's not the problem. The problem is supporting many, many firewalls on mulitple OS's... nope, not really feasible at this time.
I argued for *nix support. I was overruled. Same grounds, which, knowing a few other things, I can see. But, there are also solutions to that as well. Just not a battle I see worth fighting at this time.
ADSL From US West (Score:1)
The tech support people can be helpful. And although Linux is not officially supported, there always seems to be a Linux/Unix guru in the tech support office.
I just finished a 13 hour service outage that neither USWest.net, USWest Line Repair, the ADSL Help Desk, or USWest Hardware Support would admit to being able to fix and that somebody else was working on.
I like the technology, I dislike the company, and I respect the many knowledgable employees that manage to make it work considering the overmarketed mess they've been handed.
Fortunately I live in an area with competing DSL providers and will probably go with COVAD some time in the next few months. http://www.covad.com/
Principle is nice.... (Score:1)
Not what I heard. (Score:1)
Sorry, check a little deeper (Score:1)
Quote--
SYSTEM CONFIGURATION: Personal Computers
To ensure Infospeed DSL can (a) work efficiently on your system and (b) be installed on your computer, we require the following system
specifications to complete your order.
To expedite the process, please complete this document prior to placing your order. You may return the information via email or a fax to your sales
representative or you may provide the information when you call to place your order. If we determine that your system does not meet the required
minimum specifications, we will notify you of which item(s) or threshold(s) was found to be insufficient.
Minimum system requirements include that you have an IBM compatible PC with an Intel Pentium or an AMD K5 or K6, and Microsoft Windows 95,
Windows 98 or NT4.0 (NT service pack 3 or above). Additionally, we require 32MB RAM; 25 MB hard disk space; an original Operating System CD or
OS source files on Hard Disk and operational CD ROM drive to insert your Operating System software.
Bell Atlantic also supports the Apple Macintosh iMAC machine.
If you already have an Ethernet card in your machine, please note that Bell Atlantic only supports 3Com-branded Ethernet cards. Other brands may
be used; however your card may need to be replaced if DSL service problems occur. If you do not currently have an Ethernet card, Bell Atlantic sells
them, starting at $49.95.
IF ANY OF THE INFORMATION PROVIDED HEREIN IS INCORRECT AND RESULTS IN BELL ATLANTIC'S INABILITY TO COMPLETE HOME INSTALLATION,
THE TECHNICIAN WILL ADVISE YOU OF THE REASON FOR THE NON-COMPLETION AND YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR THE TECHNICIAN'S VISIT.
End Quote--
The simple fact is that Joe average cannot sign up for BA's ADSL if they have a Mac and do not know how to configure their boxes and _do_ need support or at least someone to help them out. Judging from your qualifications (gleaned ever so gracefully from your boxen used as rank and identifcation), I can see that ease of use, support, and the consumer mean nothing to you. Please feel free to respond, but try a little thinking before you post next time.
sick and wrong (Score:1)
They need to understand - most Mac/Linux/BeOS/whatever users know full well that they're on their own with these kinds of things. Even 'trained' Mac support staff are often just Windows guys with a little cross training. If we're calling for a hookup, they could at least just give us the standard 'you are officially unsupported - good luck' and turn it on.
But no, as always, we're second class citizens. Yay.
They're getting ready to roll out ADSL here. I hope they're as good to my Mac/LinuxPPC/BeOS partitions as they are to the Windows status quo.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
No Subject Given (Score:1)
Ummm.. name correction please (Score:1)
w98 has exhibited this as well, but not always (haven't figured out why yet). Linux, of course, works fine. Actually, so does NT... their dev team actually read the RFCs.....
Crack team of 14 year olds (Score:1)
When I got the cable service installed (about two weeks earlier), I was told that the house was already set up for cable and I could hook it in immediately. When that didn't work (and got put on hold for an hour), they sent a service person out to check the line (it was disconnected at the pole). That visit was free of charge. The total time from me ordering the service to getting cable TV was about 3 days.
In contrast, when I signed up with Time Warner, I was told the earliest install was 2 weeks from that day (on a saturday when I'd be out of town). After finally scheduling an install for the week, I asked them to call me before the person would show up so I could be hone. I got a call a little later merely asking "how long will it take you to get home?". Thinking they were asking to plan ahead, I told 'em 20 minutes. Turns out they were sending the cable guy there to install. When I *finally* got the install, the guy walked in the door, hooked in the cable box, made me sign all the papers, and left.
If MediaOne announces Linux Support*ٸɢ,á?? (Score:1)
Routes are also a big problem for M1's crack team of 14 yr old network people. 26% of all packets get dropped when pinging most locations on the internet. I don't have to tell you what this does for an ssh session.
I guess if I had phone service from them I'd be on hold less iften
Whiney Mac User (Score:1)
sure, its not even, but its not as bad as you make it out to be...
as far as software support is concerned, they already support the iMac so they have to support all 8.* systems... well, make that a requirement that will cut out all the 68030's like the LC few people would complain. hell you could restrict more than that (pci powermacs would be a good example) and few people would complain. you certainly wouldnt have this PR nightmare on your hands.
As for hardware support... yea, like there arent too many kinds of hardware on the wintel side. humm maby they should say that they will only support brand name machines. that would save them lots of money but not reduce their target market by that much (since most consumers buy brand name)
please, consider these things before you post... there are plenty of companies offering highspeed access to the mac (mediaone for instance) and making the business model work. Bell Atlantic could do the same.
GTE DSL..Ack! (Score:1)
I realize that cachedot is running from there, and they have good bandwidth, but I would never willingly be a GTE Internetworking customer.
---
All access is refused, not just support. (Score:1)
They are refusing more than just support.
They are also refusing to connect the customer at all unless they have the approved configuration. That is very unfair. Not every customer is a technophobe-cant-program-your-VCR moron who needs hand-holding to install this. They are denying access to those who could hook it up themselves. That's dumb. It's like selling a car with the hood nailed shut.
Whiney Mac User (Score:1)
They already support the iMac... other than the ugly case, there isn't any differance setting up an iMac or any other mac... What they do is write down the mac address, set up the machine to use dhcp, and tell there dhcp server to respond to the mac address... no very dificult...
So the cost of support argument makes no sense... if they really don't want to support macs, they could simply install the line, and not offer any support to users of "unsupported" os's... there are many other phone companies that do that...
Here's your damn solution, Bell Atlantic: (Score:1)
Principle is nice.... (continued) (Score:1)
Thank god i work in a small shop (Score:1)
And I thought Sprint was bad... man...
Whiney Mac User (Score:1)
Why would BA want to support Macintoshes? What is the max percentage of home users who use Macintoshes? The cost of supporting them becomes prohibitive at low numbers, and I see the number being somewhere below 10%. If your service can target >90% of the installed base of systems, your market capitalization can still be fairly high. Now, while they are supporting the iMac they may start to support the newer G3 systems, but where do you draw the line, all PowerPC systems? The x100's were pretty bad, and are nubus. Do you support the PCI power Macs? What about all those people that still have 68k beasties? The LC's don't take standard Ethernet cards and others, like the Performas, have special communications ports. Older Macs as a whole are rather difficult to support (support in terms of providing Ethernet cards and installation), because of the different ways in which NICs were crammed in there. Once you don't support the older Macs, what is the percentage of G3's and >x200s compared to all PC's 486 and above? Can we say miniscule?
Now, I'll admit that them flatly not supporting Macs is not fair, and it could easily be non-MS Operating Environments, period. But they are a business. Do the right thing and pursue it. Don't just give up.
Sooner or later (Score:1)
Not to mention the fact that Mac users - as a category - are creative types using their computers to push large media files around. They are going to order a service like ADSL in disproportionate numbers to Windows users because they have greater need. We aren't talking about surfing here; we're talking about FTPing 20 MB graphics files to clients and service bureaus.
The fact of the matter is that Bell Atlantic's policy is bad business and sooner or later they will change it. Probably about the time that all of those large Northeastern publishing firms and newspapers start demanding it.
This is everyone's fight. Alot of us geeks may be able to sidestep the bull, but if Linux, BE etc. are going to succeed and proliferate, it will only be in a tolerant and fair network and software environment.
Been using BA ADSL with MacOS for a month (Score:1)
In the D.C. area, the way BA does the install is to have a tech come over one day and do the wiring (unless you want to do this yourself), and then a software person come over the next day to help you get setup. I invited the first guy in with open arms, and then next day, when the Window support guy came, I just told him I had everything up and running fine (which I did) and didn't need any further assistance. He was totally cool with that and left without coming in.
I've talked to BA tech support a couple of times, and most of the guys there are cool; a couple of them told me they're using the service with Linux at home
In sum, it's not terribly difficult to setup DSL on a Mac or Linux or whatever kind of box that has an ethernet card, nor is it hard to use said box as a gateway for a small LAN. It's just takes some tinkering -- and carefully chosen words with the folks on the phone when you order.
One (probably obvious to most Slashdot readers) word of caution: performance will suffer under MacOS, due to it's rather weak implementation of TCP/IP. My Mac dual boots to Linux and I've found DSL performance under Linux to be much more consistant. The Mac ain't bad, though, and at times holds steady for several hours at around 150k/sec. That makes me happy.
Cheers,
J.C.
Read the prior reports from Godun (Score:1)
alts to bell atlantic phone service? (Score:1)
sig
wrong logo (Score:1)
Not all complaints are FUD. (Score:1)
1 - Crappy memory protection: One app stepping on the memory of another so that when you get a 'bomb', you have no idea which app is *really* the one responsible. The one reported is not necessarily the culplrit, since it can be screwing up merely because another app stepped on *it*.
2 - Crappy Multitasking: Apps that have to be written to be 'polite' and abdicate CPU time to each other to get it to work. This is in programmer-land and not OS-land that this is done.
3 - Vendor lock-in. What Microsoft is to opensource, Apple is to openhardware.
Don't get me wrong, Apple is fine for desktop stuff, but desktop stuff isn't where the really 'hard' problems in OS design live. Server stuff is the hard part. (So, in other words, saying that Apple is a good desktop machine isn't saying much for the OS.)
And I fully agree that what Bell Atlantic is doing is wrong. I side with Mac users on this one. An enemy of my enemy is my friend. (The enemy in this case being idiotic closed vendor lock-in for no real technical reason.) I just take exception to your claim that *all* the bad stuff said about Apple is FUD. Apple does have some real technical problems with its OS.
Waaaah! I can't get parts for my Yugo.... (Score:1)
hello apple? (Score:1)
Waaaah! I can't get parts for my Yugo.... (Score:1)
I hate to say it (Score:1)
Tell them you have an imac. Tape over the mac logo. Tell them you have a pc. Tell them you sleep with Bill Gates' picture under your pillow and burn incense offerings to the gods of intel and go on holy crusades to wipe out users of non-wintel hard/software, if that's what they want to hear. They don't need to know what os you run. Before they come out to set up your machine, they have to install a DSLAM at the central office closest to you, and wire your house/apartment. Let them do that, and then tell the software installer (i work with telcos, and can guarantee that the software installer won't be the same guy that wires your house) that you did it yourself
ADSL From US West (Score:1)
My only complaints about US West are that it took almost 6 weeks to get me hooked up, and they fucked up my billing. I never did understand why they can only hook up new customers two days out of the month. To their credit they were polite and courteous all the times I called to bitch... *ahem*
I hate to say it (Score:1)
I ordered ISDN from US West, they asked what os I ran, I told them Red Hat, told them I would wire my house and install my network card, and have never had a problem with the service. You want DSL in Bell Atlantic's turf, do it yourself!
Ummm.. name correction please (Score:1)
They wont install if:
a) Running Linux OR FreeBSD (and other Unices)
b) Computers are on a 3 box network for file sharing
c) Ask about getting a static (I got accused of setting up a warez/mp3 site and then got hungup on)
There were various other problems I had with the many representatives I talked to... Bottom line, I'm going to wait for cable, as my cable company doesn't seem mind any of these.. My bottom rule about dealing with ADSL people, don't mention anything, just say you want to buy an Internet.
Waaaah! I can't get parts for my Yugo.... (Score:1)
Come on, they're running a business. So what if they're not willing to jump through extra hoops to capture MAYBE 5% of the remaining market (probably less). If they wanted to "support" macintoshes, they'd have to have them in house and pay people to answer questions for them. They're not trying to spoil anyone's fun, they're just providing a service. Will they just let him tell them the MAC address? If so, then just pretend it's a PeeCee and do without the so-called "support" which is usually laughable anyway. The key to succeeding with an alternative OS is being invisible (at first, anyway) -- don't let anyone know what you're trying to do until you've already done it, otherwise they'll discourage or disallow it. And if your Macintosh is really so incompatible (I can't imagine that it is), then it was a poor purchase for networking anyway. It would be like buying a European PAL TV and then complaining that it doesn't receive the NTSC signal here in the States.
Here's your damn solution, Bell Atlantic: (Score:1)
Now, for Mac users: Get this address. Cover the logo on the fromt of your Mac with a piece of masking tape and write "iMac" on it. Then write the MAC address on a piece of masking tape and stick it near the Ethernet port of your computer. Because it's now PAINFULLY obvious how clueless the BA (BS?) people are, they'll likely never know the difference. No matter what they tell you, blindly insist that your computer is an iMac. Eventually they'll give in (especially if they refuse service and you threaten to sue).
Here's your damn solution, Bell Atlantic: (Score:1)
I care... (Score:2)
"About a month ago Slashdot reported on Steve Godun attempting to get Bell South to provide ADSL service to any type of Linux. At the time Bell Atlantic released a statement saying that..."
How does one find their MAC address? (Score:1)
Didn't work very well on an NT machine here. The "Network" item in the Control Panel showed it when I selected "Adapters" (although that may have been from stuff installed along with the Intel driver for the card).
There's a "getmac" command that apparently comes with the Windows NT Resource Kit, which, when run without an argument, listed the MAC address of the card on the machine in question.
You can also run "nbtstat -a " to get, among other things, the MAC address of a single-hosted machine if it supports NetBIOS (if it's multi-hosted, you may only get one of the MAC addresses).
I've had a good experience with them, too... (Score:1)
To USWest's credit, they got my Cisco 675 to my place on time, they turned the service on when they said they would, and they didn't screw up my billing. Good stuff!
--
-Rich (OS/2, Linux, Mac, NT, Solaris, FreeBSD, and OS2200 user in Bloomington MN)
unsupported doesn't mean not possible (Score:1)
Obstacles are common to the Mac user so this decree by Bell-Atlantic shouldn't come as a surprise.
MAC address is insecure (Score:1)
"The MAC address is unique information associated with an Ethernet card that Bell Atlantic.net requires to enable it to provide a secure Internet connection".
Actually, I really have to wonder why they use it. While Ethernet cards have an MAC address burned at the factory which is supposed to be unique, it can be overriden in software.
I don't know if you can do this in Linux, but in OS/2, you can actually specify your own MAC address in the settings for the network card - and not via an obscure config file, but via a GUI, no less. So, if Bell Atlantic relies on the MAC address, you could very easily impersonate another user - just use reverse ARP to find out their MAC address; wait for them to disconnect, and set your own NIC to that MAC address. MAC addresses are not at all secure !
Apple should make some calls. (Score:1)
Perhaps Apple should get in touch with BellAtlantic and ask them why they do not support Macs. They should probably also find out if there is any way that Macintosh could help them support the platform.
Who knows, they could go one step further and get the Mac logo placed in Bell's ads.
Just imagine the commercials. "Here's a Mac getting connected to ADSL... <click>."
There must be a way to escalate this issue.
(I know that there is no real technical issue here... it sounds like red tape and corporate sloth. One of the higher-ups needs a letter from another higher-up to give the command to offer support for the platform. Until then, either the yes-people will not budge on the issue, or it will take years of complaints to move up the chain of management.)
What a load of crap (Score:1)
So, when I found out that Cox would install a cable modem for my going on 3 year old Mac, I was almost shocked. What? You're actually going to do it? Supported and all?
See, the problem isn't that Mac's are harder to support or that they are so different that it costs twice as much, it's that people don't realize how similar they are to PCs when it comes to network standards. Yeah, I've heard the DHCP has it's problems, but it's workable.
The common attitude is that they think Macs use some sort of wierd form of networking that won't work with their system. Wrong. Standard TCP/IP, standard 10BaseT Ethernet, same http, same ftp, same smtp, same pop3.
Someone above said why bother with the other 10% of the market, especially when supporting that 90% is so easy. My opinion is why shut out 10% of the market, especially when learning the little differences is so easy that getting that 10% takes little or no effort.
BTW, what the hell on the PC makes getting the MAC address so easy? It's not on a label on the outside of the machine. Last I checked, it wasn't in the Network Neighborhood properties dialog box (or is it just hidden?). I do know that on the Mac, you can go into the System Profiler and it shows the addresses.
Also, another point that has been said is that this isn't just a Mac user whining. It's a non-Microsoft user that's being denied service. And a lot of Slashdot user's could easily find themselves in that group.
who gives a shit?? (Score:1)
guys who really cares if they wont support macs...its their damn choice and if they dont want to support whiny people with polls up their asses they i really dont blame them...
We need a method for dealing with this... (Score:1)
As long as we don't cross over into violating RICO law or anything nutty like that, we just might have an impact on lame-ass companies trying to push consumers around. If we don't do something, we could all wind up looking at a world that resembles a William Gibson novel.....
Voice over IP (Score:1)
"Small change" for regional calls my @$$!!! I am stuck with US Worst, and their rates to call my parents or mother in law who live within 50 miles of me (in the same area code) are higher than what it costs me to call California with AT&T. Nonlocal intrastate calls are usually the highest domestic rate there is.
GTE DSL (Score:1)
webslacker
ADSL From US West (Score:1)
NM was removed and hasn't been on the list since.
Of course, they still don't seem to able to deploy ISDN in the state's second largest city, so why should they be any more competent when it comes to any other service.
The saddest part of all is that in the areas of the state served by GTE, xDSL is available and has been for some time.
To sum it up, for NM, US Waste blows goats.
MediaOne Cable Internet access (Score:1)
When I was thinking of ordering service I didn't know much about cable modems. The type used by MediaOne is Lan City. I called them and asked about Linux. They told me that's what they had been testing with. I then called the Engineer who would preform the install at my house. He claimed it was fine. I then called the tech support people who also said it was fine, if it had DHCP, cause most tech support calls were about network problems. If was only when I called to place the order that I had a problem. The sales person/order taker claimed that the form they used on the computer did not have a checkbox for Linux, only Windows, NT, and Mac. She was also majorly dumb, so I called again hoping to get a nice person. I did, but she said that they could not install, due to the fact that someone had called from my number asking for service for a Linux box. I told her it was me, and that I was feeling much better now. I lied and told the nice lady I just purchased a G3 1000Mhz Mac with 1TB of RAM and 15TB of disk space, which she quickly typed into the market research database.
When the people came to do the install I told them not to ever touch me PC. They looked at each other, then one said "Linux?" I smile and said "Yup." The other guy said "Damn Straight!" We talked Linux and they installed everything.
God save us from the willfully bumb.