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Desktops (Apple) Apple

Apple Defends Mac Mini Power Button Relocation (9to5mac.com) 171

Posted by msmash from the holding-it-wrong dept.
Apple executives have defended the relocation of the power button to the bottom of its new M4 Mac mini, citing the computer's significantly reduced size as the driving factor behind the design change.

In a Bilibili video interview, Apple's Greg Joswiak and John Ternus explained that the Mac mini's form factor, now half the size of its predecessor, necessitated finding a new position for the power button. The executives said that the bottom placement allows for convenient access despite initial user criticism.

Apple Defends Mac Mini Power Button Relocation More | Reply

Apple Defends Mac Mini Power Button Relocation

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  • form over function (Score:5, Informative)

    by stealth_finger ( 1809752 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @09:49AM (#64942449)
    Who cares about usability when the main objective is to be pretty? This isn't a computer for using, it's a thing for owning.

    • Re: form over function (Score:5, Funny)

      by Tomahawk ( 1343 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:06AM (#64942505) Homepage

      I read this as "petty" and it still made sense.

    • laptops don't even have a power button. Macs want to be shut off by software command to preserve state. The power button is just a last resort. It most likely is not actually even a power button but an affirmative shutdown signal. I think poking your finger under a lip or lifting the brick to find it are hardly impediments if you really really need to use it a lot

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        Desktops don't have a power button either. That button just sends a signal to software too, and has for decades. There might be a rocker switch on the back of the power supply itself that actually cuts power, but have you ever used it?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by cusco ( 717999 )

          Hell yeah, when testing new software/hardware in a lab setting it's not uncommon to get a locked situation when you can do absolutely nothing. The choices are to click off the power supply switch or unplug it, the power supply switch is generally easier.

    • You're just holding it wrong! Seriously, turn the Mac Mini upside down, and now the power button is on top! An additional advantage is that it hides the Apple logo.

  • They keep "defedning" these decisions, loudly (Score:3)

    by Valgrus Thunderaxe ( 8769977 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @09:54AM (#64942471)
    Why other companies manage just fine without these same types of inane design decisions.
    • To be fair, this is how you can find something new and useful. It is just that not every attempt is successful. And, this is a great learning experience, you do something stupid and there will be some financial feedback.
      • No, if you do something this stupid there are three possible reasons:

        1) You are that stupid
        2) This saves you some money.
        3) Prioritizing looks, don't give a f*ck about functionality.

        Apple isn't dumb so its not #1, so its either 2 or 3 possibly both.

    • Other companies don't think different.

    • Those other companies will soon start copying Apple's genius design features. Pretty soon everybody's power buttons will be on the bottom.

  • Who turns off their computer in the first place? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by sirket ( 60694 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @09:57AM (#64942477)

    I haven't shut down any computer in my house in years and I don't know anyone else who does. I reboot for patches or I let it go to sleep- but that's it. Are people really turning their computer on and off all the time?

    • A few times a year I need to long-press the power-button 'cos everything locked up. It's rare, but it's not zero.

    • I definitely turn my computer off when I am not using it.

      It's not like the old days where it would take well over a minute to fully boot a computer. It takes seconds. Why wouldn't I just turn it off rather than have a power draw on something that I am not using?

      • It's not like the old days where it would take well over a minute to fully boot a computer. It takes seconds. Why wouldn't I just turn it off rather than have a power draw on something that I am not using?

        I don't want to spend those "extra seconds" for it to fully boot up....

        I actually don't ever give it much a thought....I mean, compared to my AC drag on my power bill....anything else I leave on is so minuscule I'd not notice it on the bill one way or another.

        • I don't want to spend those "extra seconds" for it to fully boot up....

          What do you do with all the time you save? I mean other than post nonsense on Slashdot? No I'm not being funny this is a legit question. If you have a potato then sure maybe sleeping the computer instead of powering it down for a boot can make some sense. If you're still running Windows XP it makes sense, but if you think you are doing anything meaningful or productive in the few seconds difference between a boot and a wake from sleep then maybe you should use those seconds to look up the definition of "del

      • Off and hybrid sleep are comparable in power draw. You can save a watt or two by unplugging it because that soft power all macs and PCs have isn't free and your PSUs probably aren't as efficient at standby current than you'd be led to believe.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        That's unlikely. Unless you're actually unplugging it, flipping a switch on a power bar, or possibly a switch on your power supply, the computer isn't off. What you're actually doing is putting it into a standby state.

        In the ATX standard the power button is a software switch, which is why you can configure it in most operating systems. In order to register the "power on" press something has to be already running. So when you think you're turning it off it's in much the same state as if you put it in hiberna

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        It's not like the old days where it would take well over a minute to fully boot a computer. It takes seconds. Why wouldn't I just turn it off rather than have a power draw on something that I am not using?

        Because it usually takes me another 5 minutes to re-open all my applications and browser tabs and other things after I turn on the PC again.

        Thus, my best option is to use Sleep or Hibernate mode. Or because I have a dozen SSH sessions open, just leave the PC on so I don't have to log in to every one of the

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sirket ( 60694 )

        Because the M4 Mini draws less than 1W during sleep and because most of us use our computers all the time. You almost certainly have countless devices in your house that draw a lot more power even when "off".

    • I shut down my computers every day. I do CAD / Design / Video Editing / CFD / FEM, and a bit of gaming. A freshly rebooted computer is a good practice for all of those applications.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sirket ( 60694 )

        You do not have to power your computer off and back on just to reboot it. I reboot mine for a variety of reasons, but I never bother to power it off.

    • I haven't shut down any computer in my house in years and I don't know anyone else who does. I reboot for patches or I let it go to sleep- but that's it. Are people really turning their computer on and off all the time?

      Career (30+ years) IT guy here. I don't turn off computers in my house (currently have 2) unless I'm going out of town as I don't need to access them remotely. One of them is a Windoze box and it will install critical patches at night and reboot, but generally speaking if I'm in town, my computers are up. People act like the power costs for leaving them running all the time are astronomical, but they really aren't. Only in the summer do I ever pay $100 or more for electricity in a month.

    • Me (Score:2)

      by kackle ( 910159 )
      In case it's an honest question, my work and home machines are hibernated each day, requiring the power button the next day. I manually do infrequent back-ups (the important changes are pushed to the cloud). My OS is no longer officially supported so updates are not an issue. (And, no, I do not fear the hacker boogeyman.)

    • > Are people really turning their computer on and off all the time?

      No, but have you tried turning it off and on again without a power button?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sirket ( 60694 )

        Uhhh, yes- I select "Reboot", "Restart", or type shutdown -r now depending on the hardware and OS I am using. What hardware are you using that requires frequent physical power-cycling?

        And it's not like there is no power button- you can still physically power cycle it if you need to for some reason- the button just isn't front and center because it doesn't need to be.

    • Yes. If I'm not using it tomorrow it gets shut down.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sirket ( 60694 )

        Why though? The M4 Mini uses less than 1W of power when asleep. You're not saving any significant amount of power, and you lose the option to do things like wake it remotely if you need access.

    • Are people really turning their computer on and off all the time?

      Yes. And why not. The days of Windows taking a minute to boot up are long gone. These days a modern PC will perform a complete boot in almost the same time as it takes to wake from sleep, and the main misguided concern that it will wear out HDDs as they spin up and down is gone too. There's frankly no reason not to shut down a PC unless you haven't finished some current work (my work PC is sleeping right now, but it's an exception rather than the rule).

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sirket ( 60694 )

        The M4 Mini draws less than 1W of power when sleeping. If you shut it down at night- at most you'd save 240 watt-hours of power in a month- that's less than 10 cents of power where I live. Not to mention the system can install updates and it's easier to access remotely if it's just sleeping.

        So I'd argue the exact opposite, there is no reason to shutdown a system that uses that little power. You almost certainly have devices in your house that use more power when they claim to be "off".

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Saffaya ( 702234 )

      Congratulations on living in a thunderstorm-free zone.
      Or you just don't care buying again all your home computers.
      I wish I could say the same.

  • Are people using the power button? When the machine is asleep it takes milliwatts.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by flink ( 18449 )

      Yeah, I mean I still think it is dumb, but all my machines are on all the time anyway, they just hibernate when idle. I turn them on by slapping a key on they keyboard, and put them to sleep with a menu item or by just walking away and leaving them idle. I only use the power button when there's been a power outage or I had to unplug something for some reason. Even then, several of my machines are configured to boot if the power is interrupted and restored via the BIOS, so the power button is basically ve

  • Easiest response ever (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CEC-P ( 10248912 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:13AM (#64942519)
    Then make it bigger. I bet it'd cool better with more size for better airflow and a bigger heatsink. There is actually no reason not to do that other than moronic image and prestige at the cost of everything else. Never really understood small computers and I've built over 1000 custom ones where I used to work.

    • Who needs a giant full tower case anymore? Certainly not your average user. If you did buy one then it's going to be mostly empty space inside. My next desktop is going to be a mini tower.

      • I was going to go smaller on my latest PC but then I thought about how heavy GPUs are now and I went horizontal instead. I could have got a smaller case but all the ones I could find that didn't suck cost a lot more.

        When I can do SFF without paying a substantial premium, I will do so.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cusco ( 717999 )

      I spent over a decade and a half in physical security, and some time before that supporting a restaurant POS system, it was not infrequent for those systems to be strapped under a desk or counter or mounted on the wall of a network room. Small form factors make this easy to do on systems which spend 99% of their time barely above idling so heating is not an issue.

    • I read your title and thought, "Yeah, that's the ticket! Make the power button bigger!" Make it cover the entire bottom surface of the device. Then you can just push down on the whole top of the computer to turn it on and off.

  • Every time I read a story about Apple's user interface hardware, I feel like Hank Hill confronted with one of Bobby's flights of fancy. Except Bobby was only ever trying to be a theater kid, not... replace the escape and function keys with a touchscreen.

    Just... be normal, please.

  • Apple's Defense (Score:5, Funny)

    by jpatters ( 883 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:25AM (#64942537)

    Apple: "Well, it had to go somewhere"

    • Did it though? Couldn't it just have been a capacitive touch integrated into the case? I think we all know that it could. Apple chose not to be brave. They also could have put it on the power brick, thus making the power cord even more proprietary and could have extracted more money *cough* *cough*, sorry provided more user delight. It seems on the face of it as a half solution designed to save money above all else.

      • I think you're on to something! Make it a capacitive touch sensor that covers the *entire* surface of the computer. That way, you can touch it *anywhere* to turn it on and off!

  • They could of had the entire base be a button, and you just press down on the aluminum to power it on or off

  • I turn *all* my gear off at night with just one button. Subscribe to my newsletter and you can too!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      I can't remember when I first realized that most countries don't have power switches on their wall sockets. In the UK it's very unusual to find one that doesn't have its own power switch.

      Other things about our electrical systems suck, but that's one thing we got right.

  • The 2024 version of... (Score:5, Funny)

    by roc97007 ( 608802 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:48AM (#64942593) Journal

    "You're holding it wrong".

  • Rationalizing failure with PR wank. Not buying.
    While it truly sucks for Mac Minis held with a bracket, but OTOH, how often do you ever touch a Mac Mini?
    In other news, I currently need a reasonably fast, reasonably priced arm64 server... but I don't think Apple qualifies.
  • But that new size sure does look nice.
  • Another opportunity for people who seem to have very little to do be feign rage at something entirely inconsequential. The bloody thing is 5 inches square - just lift it up a fraction.

  • Always on--always using power (Score:3)

    by BrendaEM ( 871664 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @11:27AM (#64942705) Homepage
    It shows Apple's commitment to waste natural resources.

  • Mac Mini Takes 4W at Idle--Each (Score:3)

    by BrendaEM ( 871664 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @11:41AM (#64942759) Homepage
    If they sold a million of them, then they would consume 4 Mega Watts, doing nothing. It would take oil and one of these to power them: https://www.uspeglobal.com/lis... [uspeglobal.com]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      They don't sit at idle. They go through various levels of sleep, and when they get to the bottom one they use the same amount of power as they do when you turn them "off" using the "power" button, which is the same as any other computer you've likely used in the last 30 years.

      The "off" power draw isn't nothing, it's about a quarter of a watt for a Mac mini. A desktop PC with an Energy Star certified ATX power supply is usually going to be a few watts, as is your TV, and most other devices that have a power

    • That's not nothing though. Where I live, the electricity costs of something powered 24/7 amount to around $1 per watt per year. And my electric costs are extremely low, the average in some states is double or more.

  • Apple is just throwing a bone to the 3rd party ecosystem.

    Now there's an opportunity to:

    1. 3d print a button extension
    2. Sell a dock that moves the on/off button somewhere visible (using an extension)
    3. Offer a service to disassemble your mac mini and rehome the innards into a different case form factor, that puts the on/off button somewhere visible (using an extension)
    4. Sell furniture or a plinth with a cutout for the button for easy access, or a button located on the desk that presses the button for y

  • Customers: Apple, customers won't like a power button on the bottom of their Mac Mini.

    Apple Execs: Apple customers will like what I tell them to like!

  • Simple solution (Score:3)

    by maiden_taiwan ( 516943 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:20PM (#64943055)

    Run the Mac upside down.

  • ... but this is really dumb place for the power button. There are plenty of other places it could have gone.

  • Just flip it... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WCLPeter ( 202497 ) on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:27PM (#64943089) Homepage

    Saw a review on YouTube, looks like a decent machine for modest tasks, where they'd addressed the "controversy". Guy just flipped it upside down, the black "top" looks pretty good and it had the added benefit of moving the headphone jack to the left hand side of the unit where he'd typically kept his headphones, keeping the two front USB-C ports clear.

    It's not like there's a spinning disk or optical media in there and USB-C / Thunderbolt are unidirectional, just turn it upside down if you turn your computer on and off so much. I'm far more upset at the ridiculous pricing for the 32GB ram upgrade or the absolutely insane amounts they charge for internal SSD storage, there is absolutely no possible way for an $800/CDN base machine to suddenly cost $2,424/CDN - three times the price! - because I decided to drop in 32GB of RAM and a 2TB SSD!

    • Guy just flipped it upside down, the black "top" looks pretty good

      What do we call this? "Think un-different"?

  • stealth_finger:

    Who cares about usability when the main objective is to be pretty? This isn't a computer for using, it's a thing for owning.

    Really?
    Is that the best you have?
    And this fool got voted up to 5?

    It's a 5" x 5" x 2" hunk of hollow aluminium with innards that pack an almighty punch in terms of compute power with a crazy low power consumption.

    Are you stupid?
    Did your parents drop you on your head?

    This is MAGA levels of idiocy and delusion, but then again, slashdot has always attracted the crazies.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cusco ( 717999 )

      And Apple fanbois.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Saffaya ( 702234 )

      You must be young and new to the world of computing for not recognizing a satire of Apple behavior, and for bringing politics in this otherwise technical discussion, while simultaneously insulting the parent poster and the forum itself.

      Get off my lawn, as they say.

  • Watched an unboxing video just to see where the button is. This is not significantly different than positioning it in a rear corner. The button is not uniformly flat to the desktop. There's a recessed pedestal. You still have to lift it slightly, but the thing weighs 670 grams. Compared to the historical minis it's a featherweight.

    Getting bent out of shape over this is just plain stupid. It's nitpicking for its own sake. Nobody actually owning one of these will be bothered by it. Hell, my beefy mid tower PC

  • Just got the mac mini m4 . It's plugged into a UPS and yeah, the power button is on the button and I don't even care.
    It's not like I intend to use it very much and even if I did power down every night it still wouldn't be an issue.

    I just don't get how people get hung up over trivial things.
    Someone mentioned apple removing the headphone jack and honestly, I don't even miss it.

    If you are the type of person that gets put off over these types of things then don't buy the product.

  • The first Mac users are now in their 80s. They'll never think to look there. There will be phone calls.

  • Profit margins are the holy grail of Steve Jobs Apple and Tim Cook continues that outlook. So putting the power button on the metal case probably would of increased costs about a dollar reducing profit margin so screw the customer. Then when users said it was stupid Apple immediately told is official fanboy Youtubers to say "who ever turns a Mac off". Servers you never turn off desktop computer turn it off and go out and spend some time in the real world.

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