Apple Fans Are Starting To Return Their Vision Pros (theverge.com) 178
An anonymous reader shares a report: For some Apple Vision Pro buyers, the honeymoon is already over. It's no coincidence that there's been an uptick on social media of Vision Pro owners saying they're returning their $3,500 headsets in the past few days. Apple allows you to return any product within 14 days of purchase -- and for the first wave of Vision Pro buyers, we're right about at that point.
Comfort is among the most cited reasons for returns. People have said the headset gives them headaches and triggers motion sickness. The weight of the device, and the fact that most of it is front-loaded, has been another complaint. Parker Ortolani, The Verge's product manager, told me that he thought using the device led to a burst blood vessel in his eye. At least one other person noted they had a similar experience with redness. (To be fair, VR headset users have anecdotally reported dry eyes and redness for years.)
Comfort is among the most cited reasons for returns. People have said the headset gives them headaches and triggers motion sickness. The weight of the device, and the fact that most of it is front-loaded, has been another complaint. Parker Ortolani, The Verge's product manager, told me that he thought using the device led to a burst blood vessel in his eye. At least one other person noted they had a similar experience with redness. (To be fair, VR headset users have anecdotally reported dry eyes and redness for years.)
Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:5, Insightful)
I sense this is like Google Glass from a couple of years ago. A solution in search of problem with technology that's not quite there yet.
Re:Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:5, Interesting)
That we dont see advertising everywhere?
That they cant direct market to us while we drive for a store right there?
That they want to advertise to us about crap in the store we just entered?
Seems a boring dystopia.
Re:Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:5, Insightful)
What is the problem they are trying to address?
The problem of they need a new stream of revenue.
Re:Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:5, Interesting)
Historically Apple has earned that revenue by offering something that nobody else was offering.
In the Apple 2 era that was affordable machines that didn't suck.
In the 68k era that was a machine with a GUI that didn't suck.
The PPC era wasn't good for them.
The iPhone offered what others were beginning to offer, but it didn't suck. Same for the iPod; although iTunes did suck, it didn't suck bad enough to prevent people from using the device most of the time.
ARM-based Macs offer better battery life with good performance even in a less bulky machine, for average workloads.
What meaningful feature does the Apple Vision Pro offer that other VR headsets don't? Great eye tracking, that's it. That's certainly not nothing, but it's not enough to justify inferior ergonomics and a bigger price tag. Just like compared to other handhelds, the Newton offered better handwriting recognition, but it cost spectacularly more. That didn't matter so much because it wasn't hard to learn Graffiti, and now it doesn't matter at all because a swiping keyboard is a much faster way to enter text anyway and we all have capacitive displays now.
Apple seems to think that just slapping their logo on a product is enough to make people think it's great. No, it's only enough to make people want it before they try it. Once they have it in hand, it has to justify itself. It was true of Newton, and it's also true of Vision Pro.
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What meaningful feature does the Apple Vision Pro offer that other VR headsets don't? Great eye tracking, that's it.
There is absolutely more being offered, and quite readily covered in reviews. That said, the price point completely outweighs the benefits. I acknowledge that they're not overpriced in terms of overall cost to develop and produce, but they're definitely overpriced for their market.
Cost is worth it for some (Score:2)
That said, the price point completely outweighs the benefits.
That is not true, because there is literally nothing that can do some things the Vision Pro does.
If you want to seriously work all day in a headset, with real work - there is no other headset that is practical to use in this way.
I know because I've tried using lots of other headsets. No other headset can I can actually work in, until now the resolution and control has been too poor.
People spend all kinds of money on high end monitors and very exp
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I'm speaking about the majority of people
The majority of people are not a concern for most new products. All that is required is for this initial batch / version of the headset to sell out. You state that it is too expensive for the market but the market is not yet defined so it is too early to make such a statement. Selling out demonstrates that such a market does exist. This is all that is required to warrant future R&D investments into improving the product. And considering the reported small production run and number of people with m
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The majority of people are not a concern for most new products.
I mentioned early adopters are different. I even said I would have considered it, if I had more disposable income.
You state that it is too expensive for the market but the market is not yet defined
VR headsets have been around for years. The market has been defined. This is an expensive alternative to even the higher priced professional AR/VR headsets.
Selling out demonstrates that such a market does exist.
Except, this story is about how people are returning the headsets. Clearly, those people don't think it's worth the money. I'm sure a portion are just lookie-loos, fulling planning to return it either way. However, they're likely not the only
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I don't find multiple large screens all around me to be an "alternative" to anything I could put together unless I wanted to buy and rig up nine monitors... but then how could I travel with them all?
The Vision pro doesn't replace multi-monitor setups like that.You get one monitor, and apps that are supported by it. It might be capable of supporting more in time, but as it stands, it's not a replacement. Sure, it's more portable when traveling. But, realistically, it doesn't do too much more than a different VR headset already could, in that regard. It just does it with a better display and more polish at 5x the price.
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If people just got it as a toy - then I'd agree, that's an expensive toy and it may not be worthwhile.
Time will tell, but I suspect most of the early adopters were the Apple fanbois who always have to have the latest iToy. The folks who upgrade their iPhones every year and list a dozen different Apple devices in their MacRumors forum sig.
The people you describe - the ones who "understand what the device is really for, what it's good at... and find that useful" - are likely a pretty small group. I'm betting that's not who Apple is making this for, though - they want the iToy buyers. Assuming this product rea
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I love VR. I think it's an amazing, cool gimmick, and I have some kind of blind faith that eventually some great use case will come up. Video phones were a useless sci fi idea for a long time, and now everybody facetimes or zooms.
But...using VR on planes? As a screen replacement? I honestly don't see the advantage over a laptop screen, plus there's the discomfort inherent to strapping it on your head and having screens two inches from your eyes.
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But...using VR on planes? As a screen replacement?
I've been searching for a reason why somebody would want one. I've seen one person playing a game on one and they just looked ridiculous flailing around at what everyone else perceived as nothing. I understood what she was doing and I think everyone else did as well, but she still looked ridiculous. Playing her game also required a lot of room to move around. As far as a plane goes, I could see that use case justified at a much smaller price point. If you're flying coach, anything bigger than a 13" laptop i
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Eh...I guess I've gotten good at just paying attention to the screen and blocking out the world around me. The question of it looking like a 100 foot tall screen that's 200 feet away or a 13 " monitor that's two feet away is a non-issue, it takes the same FOV to your eyes. But sure, maybe at a much cheaper price point having the world outside the screen blocked is cool.
It's not VR, but I remember Sony used to sell movie glasses that projected a largescreen TV in front of your eyes. It wasn't VR - the mon
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If the Apple Vision could do multiple screens like you can have multiple monitors on your
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I'd be interested in this info too!!
Maybe possible... (Score:2)
I tend to just have a lot of web windows and terminals open on my desktop. I rarely even open a native application for work aside from a terminal program. Would this be possible?
To me this would come down to the quality of terminal apps for the iPad, and maybe some being converted to native VisionOS support with a little more support for varying sizes. I've not tried that out, may take a look around... you could just use them on the mirrored Mac screen which would work really well.
For browsers yes, that wo
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That is not true, because there is literally nothing that can do some things the Vision Pro does.
If you want to seriously work all day in a headset, with real work - there is no other headset that is practical to use in this way.
You could have left out the word "other" and it would still be true. After all, people are returning it because the weight is too uncomfortable, and the battery life is only a couple of hours. So I'd argue that it is pretty impractical to use one all day.
But especially now that we are getting on from launch, more and more people understand what the device is really for, what it's good at - and so the people who find that useful will be able to fairly judge if the price works for them.
I see it as a hugely overpriced monitor. Everything I'd want to do with a computer is impossible without supporting Mac apps, and the battery life means you're going to be tethered for long-term use anyway, so as much as I'd like to want this thing, I'm
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... on *your* head.
Mea culpa.
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The iPhone offered what others were beginning to offer, but it didn't suck.
ARM-based Macs offer better battery life with good performance even in a less bulky machine, for average workloads.
But it DID suck and still didn't matter. It couldn't even send MMS - a basic function of every other phone for years at the point. But people thought it was some status symbol even though it never has been and never will be.
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Whoops, could have sworn I deleted that second line in the quote.
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I've used MMS since fairly early days, from when I got my first Motorola Triplets phone (a V300) - my prior phone was a tiny but reliable Siemens with a very low-res mono display, and before that I had Sprint's first PCS phones. And using it has often been very painful, and didn't work all that well due to carrier incompetence. Only recently have I found it to mostly work, once I disabled RCS that is. Google keeps finding ways to screw things up, too.
iPhone also was supposed to originally only do webapps, w
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The iPhone offered what others were beginning to offer, but it didn't suck.
But it DID suck and still didn't matter. It couldn't even send MMS - a basic function of every other phone for years at the point. But people thought it was some status symbol even though it never has been and never will be.
Yup. The first-generation iPhone was a disaster. Its browser barely worked. No copy and paste. It couldn't even record video without jailbreaking it. So although some aspects of the UI were more user-friendly, it was still not something that I'd use as much more than a phone. By the time they got to the iPhone 5, Apple finally had a good product, but it took five years to reach the point where they didn't have serious problems with either the software or the hardware or both.
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the first thing Jony Ive did was destroy the UI, something Apple has never recovered from.
"Never recovered..."
https://www.statista.com/stati... [statista.com]
https://explodingtopics.com/bl... [explodingtopics.com]
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I owned a Newton and loved it as a toy, but could never really figure out what to practically use it for. Looking back, the real problem was the lack of third party apps. Even the ones you could get ate up too much of the limited me
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The Apple II predated the Commodore 64 by nearly 5 years.
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There's a lot of good, cutting edge tech here. And Apple is doing things in their typical Apple fashion, playing up this as the dawn of a new era of computing. Whether or not they're correct is something only time will tell us, but I DO think that this is a great way to get people to try it and see what it's good for and get that feedback back to Apple. As a video game dev, something I've seen repeatedly is that when you work on something long enough, you stop seeing the flaws. You may make something that's
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Historically Apple has earned that revenue by offering something that nobody else was offering.
[Followed by a bunch of examples of offering something that others were offering, with "that didn't suck" tacked on the end.]
It sounds like, historically, Apple has made money by selling more-polished, better versions of what other companies were already selling. Which the Vision Pro could be another example of, assuming it doesn't suck.
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It sounds like, historically, Apple has made money by selling more-polished, better versions of what other companies were already selling.
Yep. Ironically, sometimes it was cheaper. But most times, it was more expensive, but slightly better in some specific way.
Which the Vision Pro could be another example of, assuming it doesn't suck.
The problem is, it clearly does suck. If in no other way, it sucks ergonomically. It is far from alone in that regard, but there are examples which are superior. This is a weird direction for Apple to go because most of their hardware is thinner, lighter, and smoother than the competition's.
When I think of Apple hardware, my positive thoughts are of it being nice to touch and hold, feel
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The problem is simple.
You have some money. As long as you have that money, they don't have that money. They want that money. They need it to win the high-score contest on the local arcade's pinball machine, I mean, be the most profitable company of all the companies.
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If you buy one, you failed.
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The killer feature is, of course, AR's latent ability to see people naked. This is very obvious, but, since it's so repressed, gets even more repressed.
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I sense this is like Google Glass from a couple of years ago. A solution in search of problem with technology that's not quite there yet.
The solution is not there yet. Part of the problem is that there are no apps to solve specific problems yet. However, that issue is largely gated by a workable platform, and this is where the shortcomings of the Quest and Vision Pro are blocking the development of new apps. I don't personally think that using headsets as private dumb screens is all that useful.
However, a working platform that supports AR opens up many possibilities that are Jarvis-like. Things like always on Google Lens merged with Goog
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I sense this is like Google Glass from a couple of years ago. A solution in search of problem with technology that's not quite there yet.
The solution is not there yet.
There is no "there".
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So it's Oakland?
Re:Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:5, Insightful)
How about a classroom where the same lecture and slides are annotated differently based on the needs of the individual student?
You expect a professor to re-create the same slide show tens of times for each student? And then how do you expect to handle questions when nobody is on the same page because they've all got slightly different slides?
Re: Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:2)
The lecture and notes will be written by Ai. The student will use Ai to write all papers.
Re:Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:5, Insightful)
You expect a professor to re-create the same slide show tens of times for each student?
I work with faculty. Many of them won't even bother to update the existing set of slides they use each year for a given course. The idea they'd do custom updates for a student is DOA.
Re:Product in search of a problem to solve (Score:4, Insightful)
How about a classroom where the same lecture and slides are annotated differently based on the needs of the individual student?
You expect a professor to re-create the same slide show tens of times for each student? And then how do you expect to handle questions when nobody is on the same page because they've all got slightly different slides?
No, I expect the professor to give the same lecture and use the same slides for the entire class. However, the AR glasses will annotate tailored for each student based on the needs of that student. For example, the glasses (and an AI system) can figure out what the student got wrong on previous tests and point out things that are helpful for that specific student.
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However, a working platform that supports AR opens up many possibilities that are Jarvis-like. Things like always on Google Lens
You can't reasonably sell always-on functionality on a device that you can't reasonably always have on. Even if there weren't tons of other reasons why it's not feasible to wear this device all the time, the ergonomics preclude it.
This is Apple moving at the wrong time. This is not the first time, and thanks to their massive pile of money, they will be around long enough for it to not be the last.
Until someone solves the bulk problem and the depth problem and the timely eye and head tracking problem all in
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However, a working platform that supports AR opens up many possibilities that are Jarvis-like. Things like always on Google Lens
You can't reasonably sell always-on functionality on a device that you can't reasonably always have on. Even if there weren't tons of other reasons why it's not feasible to wear this device all the time, the ergonomics preclude it.
I agree that the ergonomics presently preclude these uses. But that's a platform deficiency. I'm dreaming about what could be useful if the platform ever becomes practical, fully realizing that that time may never come.
Someone made a comment that there are no potential uses for such a device, and I dreamed about those uses if the platform were available in the future.
Isn't that true of a laptop also? (Score:2)
A solution in search of problem with technology that's not quite there yet.
A laptop is technically "A solution in search of a problem".
Turns out the "problem" it solves is being able to work more efficiently.
I find that I can work more efficiently working with a Vision Pro and a laptop, than I can with just a laptop and one or two external monitors.
It really is that simple, and it's why in the end the Vision Pro will do really well... because like the best of successful technologies it amplifies our ability
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Suddenly, working within the Vision Pro, all of those people can melt away from your existence.
I think I saw you on the bus!
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All I wanted was a simple tactical HUD [brianvellmure.com]. Was that too much to ask?
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I sense this is like Google Glass from a couple of years ago. A solution in search of problem with technology that's not quite there yet.
Google Glass caused a different set of symptoms in its users: facial trauma, broken bones, glass fragments embedded in the eyes - all from the fists of other people they met while out in public.
blink (Score:5, Informative)
> VR headset users have anecdotally reported dry eyes and redness for years
Yeah, you need to blink regularly. Same as staring at any screen.
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Life Pro-Tip: You should stand further back than 1 inch when watching your TV or computer monitor.
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During those decades you were watching CRTs that actually are slightly radioactive by design and operation (electron cannon shooting at phosphor elements induce X-rays emissions).
Document yourself instead of spewing shit next time?
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You're not supposed to sit too close in front of an X-ray source. The leaded glass on a CRT can't stop 100% of it.
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Time to start selling cool red contact lenses. Needs to be marketed as cool, sold in fancy packaging, and way over-priced. Let people know you have an expensive headset even when you are not wearing it.
Buyer's remorse? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Who was actually hyping this?
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Who was actually hyping this?
Probably a lot of the people now returning them.
Front-loaded (Score:5, Interesting)
This has been a pretty consistent theme in comments on the Quest headsets, too. I've got a Quest 2 and the extended battery. Even though the extended battery adds considerably to the overall weight, it's still a distinct improvement because the weight is much better distributed between front and back.
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It's definitely a design failure. I had to velcro some soft exercise weights to the back of my Quest 2 headset to remove most of the downward pressure on my sinuses. Before that the sinus headaches it induced were brutal.
Multiple problems but no solutions (Score:2)
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It's definitely a design failure. I had to velcro some soft exercise weights to the back of my Quest 2 headset to remove most of the downward pressure on my sinuses. Before that the sinus headaches it induced were brutal.
This can be solved with a ceiling hook and a length of twine.
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> This can be solved with a ceiling hook and a length of twine.
I'd recommend something with more girth if you intend to make a noose. I'm assuming that's what you meant by "solve the problem".
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Perhaps we're not ready yet. Just grit your teeth and bear the discomfort. And evolution will give us back our occipital buns [wikipedia.org].
14 days playing with a new expensive toy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:14 days playing with a new expensive toy (Score:5, Funny)
I suspect a large portion of the buyers were wanna-be social media influencers who ended up returning the device after their Vision Pro youtube video made $7.68 and they needed money for groceries.
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I wish they'd get these things on B&H, where I usually buy my high end stuff....can get it tax free with their internal "PayBoo" card (stupid name, but nice to get free shipping AND no sales tax).
Which one do you think they skipped? (Score:2, Insightful)
2. does anyone even want this and does it fundamentally, realistically function as a product?
3. Design it
4. WIdespread production
Which one do you think they skipped?
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I want fire that can be fitted nasally. The entire process you mentioned can be shipped out on the B-ark.
Only decadent, wealthy (and perhaps decaying) societies need step two, because otherwise the product will reveal itself if you look hard enough, the need or benefit is evident, and the funds used to pay for it are therefore non-discretionary or a good value. IOW, the business puts in actual work researching pain points [wordstream.com] that match their business model (the only valid step 1) and the rest takes care of its
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1. come up with product ideas
2. does anyone even want this and does it fundamentally, realistically function as a product?
3. Design it
4. WIdespread production Which one do you think they skipped?
To be fair, it's often not possible to answer the question in #2 without first doing #3, and you can really only estimate the answer without doing #4.
Regarding Weight Distribution... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Regarding Weight Distribution... (Score:4, Insightful)
If the more utilitarian band ruins women's hair then it's not a reasonable fix for an image-conscious public whose buying decisions are swayed by the fashionability of corporate logos.
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I think this neatly summarizes the problem with the whole device... What people want ("to look cool") and what the reality is (it's a computer on your face) are in direct contradiction. Like it or not, Apple dropped "computer" from their name and became a lifestyle brand
Meat problems (Score:2)
At that price, Apple should have an optometrist personally adjust each device to the user.
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They don't need optometrists for that. You submit your prescription details when ordering and they provide optical inserts to match.
Not surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
14 day return policy? Well there you have it. Most people are just trying it out, doing a few social media posts for the attention, then getting their money back.
Heck if I knew that policy, I would have done it myself.
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You still can. And it sounds like there should be a few open-box specials.
Or maybe The Real World is just a Better Product (Score:3)
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Lately?
No....no it isn't lately.
You'll have to do better than that.
It's a veblen good (Score:3)
Also it doesn't do porn and let's not get ourselves that's the killer app for VR. Other than that all you have are silly video games that tend to give you motion sickness and Mark zuckerberg's dreams of forcing us all into a virtual office while dragging us into real offices to keep the property values of his real estate investments going
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In Snow Crash the tech was developed well beyond this point, so that you could feasibly be "goggled in" all the time. People who did so were still considered to be weirdos and creeps because they were logging everything all the time — Stephenson successfully predicted the glasshole effect. Gargoyles weren't rejected because they looked stupid, they were shunned because other people didn't want the world to see them looking stupid.
Let me guess (Score:2)
Just trying it out (Score:2)
Or people take advantage of the 14 day return policy just to try out something new that they never intended to keep.
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Right - they probably pre-wrote this article on February 2nd on that assumption and just inserted quotes just before publication. Apple is also OK with this because the pre-order numbers matter more to them than actual sales. And also drive more non-returned sales.
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Just like Apple TV. Seems like they're overlooking this flaw.
Same With Meta Quest (Score:2)
We saw countless posts about people returning their Meta Quest headsets too. This is nothing new. Most people are keeping them but a vocal minority is amplified online and it makes it appear as if a huge number of people are sending them back. Remember that more than 250k of these were sold. The couple hundred posts online represent only a very small fraction of owners.
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It's an old sales thing: for each person who complains about something there are ten who don't complain but tell all their friends you suck.
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That theory could be true, but it's just as much a theory. The question is really just "does it have a higher return rate than similar products like the Quest?" The answer is probably yes, if for no other reason than because it costs more, so people will be more sensitive to any issues.
Also worth pointing out, that "keeping it" doesn't mean "using it". I would expe
I know the Answer (Score:4, Funny)
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For the younger ones, this is the reference:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TE... [cnn.com]
Wow, that was fast (Score:2)
I'm not the only one who called it, not even close, but I figured it would last a little bit longer. The 2 week return period was the motivator I suppose.
Damn... Not quite there yet? (Score:2)
Just when I thought I FINALLY could buy a device that would let me explore Facebook's Metaverse!
Cuz ya know, I don't want to miss out on the future.
Get back to me when there's AR/VR Contacts (Score:2)
Big bulky headsets are not my idea of a fun time computing. I've already used VR headsets (and returned them... thanks return policies!) My outcomes with VR have been headaches, vertigo and other not fun side effects. I have glasses... but who doesn't?
Until we have something that can literally exist in a set of prescription lenses - completely unreasonable for today - it's just not worth it.
$3500-$5000++ desktop workstations using a gimmicky bulky headset is just not ready for the mainstream. You can certai
Can it compensate one's vision impairment? (Score:3)
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Why not just say you don't ever want to buy one. You can't compensate for myopia or hyperopia on a screen. You can't fix optical issues on a screen. It's the whole reason corrective lenses for VR are on offer.
And yes I have corrective lenses in my VR headset not just because of myopia, but also to correct for my astigmatism. It's been something that's been on the market for a decade now. They were literally available for the Quest CV1 back in the day.
I think reports are overblown (Score:2)
Sounds like a lot of people on the hate apple bandwagon.
I bough mine the day it came out, and had to get it refitted as different light seals put pressure on different parts of the face. The one I had was putting pressure on my cheek bones, now it is much better. When I first tried it, I was blown away, but wasn't sure how much work I could do in it, and it can be awkward at first. But, the more I use it the more I like the device and I could see this being the future of computing, especially as the devi
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I could see this being the future of computing, especially as the device sic get smaller
Only if the device gets smaller. FTFY.
A lot of people are complaining about VR in general because it just isn't there yet. Nobody wants to strap a lunchbox to their face. Not for any significant period of time, at least. It's still gee whiz territory.
Apple didn't revolutionize it. They didn't listen to the general complaints about VR and thought their logo and social cachet would make them money on what they tend to like to sell: Sexy and trendy and "it just works."
If it isn't actually the future of compu
Apple's experiment will fail only if (Score:2)
If youâ(TM)re complaining about the weight yo (Score:2)
Sincerely,
Steve Jobs
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That was when the product launched.
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What you missed is that this product wasn't available for sale in December.
Pretty hard to buy something for the big holiday rush, when it's not available for sale until a month after the holiday came and went.
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So you've never heard of eye strain or dry-eye?
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They're being people wrong.