Apple Slams UK Surveillance-bill Proposals, Threatens To Remove FaceTime and iMessage (bbc.com) 61
Apple says it will remove services such as FaceTime and iMessage from the UK rather than weaken security if new proposals are made law and acted upon. From a report: The government is seeking to update the Investigatory Powers Act (IPA) 2016. It wants messaging services to clear security features with the Home Office before releasing them to customers. The act lets the Home Office demand security features are disabled, without telling the public.
Under the update, this would have to be immediate. Currently, there has to be a review, there can also be an independent oversight process and a technology company can appeal before taking any action. Because of the secrecy surrounding these demands, little is known about how many have been issued and whether they have been complied with. But many messaging services currently offer end-to-end encryption - so messages can be unscrambled by only the devices sending and receiving them.
Under the update, this would have to be immediate. Currently, there has to be a review, there can also be an independent oversight process and a technology company can appeal before taking any action. Because of the secrecy surrounding these demands, little is known about how many have been issued and whether they have been complied with. But many messaging services currently offer end-to-end encryption - so messages can be unscrambled by only the devices sending and receiving them.
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Pressure from which government?
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Any (except the US because he's not feeling his profiteering threatened), my above reference shows Turkey .. but China's a good example where he caves and even defends them. It's like they own him. Reference: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/w... [nbcnews.com] I feel like he gave the Chinese methane rocket engine technology too. There's enough circumstantial evidence of it. I believe China, which prior to that had zero methane rocket engine development work, used the technology he provided them with to launch an orbital meth
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Apple caved to requirements significantly more stringent than Turkey quite a long time ago in many nations. PRC comes as a good example.
Whenever market access is actually threatened, companies will cave, because the choice is not between "market access" and "market access", but between "market access" and "no market access".
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Re: Let them shoot their foot off (Score:5, Insightful)
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UK business is barely a dust mote in the eye of Apple, it will slightly impact the Flying saucer coffee fund, no one will notice. .
Re: Let them shoot their foot off (Score:2)
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It is actually zero, as far as iMessage is concerned. Apple make no money from it specifically. As long as the iDevices marketshare does not shrink, no skin off their back.
The UK would be Apples 2nd or 3rd biggest revenue source, depending on if you're counting the EU as a single market or breaking it up into individual countries (I.E. Germany, France, Spain, et al).
Cutting off iMessage and other Apple services will just make more people get off the Apple ecosystem, buying Android phones, Windows based computers, not replacing that tablet they never use with a shiny new one they'll never use. Knock on effects to people buying fewer accessories (those EarPods they keep losi
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OTOH, less Apple in the UK can only be improve things
Because you are for users using less secure devices?
Not just Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not just Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
Roll-your-own end-to-end will happen. How's the government going to track if an app on my phone is calling a registration server in another nation so I can create a peer connection to another phone? Hide that inside an HTTPS session, disguise your apps' traffic to look like something legal or at least not fit the profile of what they're looking for...
All they can really do is A) make it difficult for non-technical people or people without technical friends or resources and B) add another charge for the sheet if they're hauling you into court.
It's essentially unenforceable bullshit that only undermines the privacy of the average citizen. It's not going to help find pedos or whatever the current 'think of the children' rationalisation happens to be.
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Roll-your-own end-to-end will happen.
All that stuff is theoretically possible and someone might implement it for a couple friends, but it's not realistically going to happen so if governments banned e2e encryption in larger apps, it would essentially be successful. We need to stop them now before it gets to that stage
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Roll-your-own end-to-end will happen.
However, such things would likely lack the ubiquity of iMessage or WhatsApp or other apps which can easily be added and setup. Given the current apps are used by a lot of people outside the UK, they have no real incentive to adopt them, since they only lose the ability to connect with folks in the UK. If you develop such an app, you don't have to go after the users you go after the developers, distribution network and servers.
WhatsApp, iMessage et. al. are popular because they are easy to setup and use;
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Not really.
Unless somethingâ(TM)s changed in the last few months; the EU still plans to implement rules that will force Apple to eliminate the App Store, sandboxing, the Secure Enclave, the ApplePay NFC, and all that. Apple, to continue doing business on that side of the ocean, will have to allow just any random program from anywhere to to do anything it likes to the iPhone. The Signal and Telegram apps would presumably load and run just as well as reallysecureVPNski.apk from youcantrustusreally.ru w
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This is, of course, complete nonsense.
The EU is not forcing Apple to eliminate the App Store. Or do any of the other things claimed. The EU is a pretty dreadful organization and it does many very stupid things. But it hasn't done and is not doing this.
What it will be doing is giving users the power to install apps from other places, in addition to from the App Store, should they wish to do that. You don't want to, stick with the App Store. No-one is making you do anything different.
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They will remove services no one outside the US uses. What will we do?
Oh well
Except Signal has also said they'd leave and I would not be surprised if WhatsApp would as well.; leaving the UK isolated from the major apps used for communication.
Re: Oh no (Score:2)
Youâ(TM)d want zoom to exit too to really hit hard. As soon as their business buddies canâ(TM)t hold meetings because of their dumb assery, and their only response is âoewell hold meetings your competitors can listen in toâ theyâ(TM)ll fold.
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That is a separate issue from Apple's empty threats. The UK is being stupid, I am just making fun of Apple's reply.
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That is a separate issue from Apple's empty threats. The UK is being stupid, I am just making fun of Apple's reply.
Fair enough. Apple could still sell phones just without FaceTime or iMessage installed, and not allow folks to d/l non-compliant apps from the App Store. It's a bit different than say, the EU's move to USB-C. Depending on if and how side loading comes to iOS the whole UK issue may be moot as people simply side load forbidden apps.
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Except that the Eurofags are also working to force Apple to allow app stores it doesn't control. So people can just download "non-compliant apps" from other sources, that are only available to iPhones because the govt had to stick its nose in some that was never its business to begin with.
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Except that the Eurofags are also working to force Apple to allow app stores it doesn't control. So people can just download "non-compliant apps" from other sources, that are only available to iPhones because the govt had to stick its nose in some that was never its business to begin with.
And governments will go after stores allowing download of non-compliant apps.
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If they're not hosted in that country, good luck.
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Oh...because...yeah....that will work.
AI (Score:2)
I hear AI can do anything and everything! The UK can ask AI to read them the messages, and voilà! Decoded.
(Before you correct me. I'm joking.)
Wonderful (Score:4, Interesting)
As Britain slides further into a weird world of surveillance, disguised as "Won't someone think of the children?" is it the only appropriate response to make - cut 'em off. No program for you and your citizens.
And how could The so very concerned lawmakers in Great Britain disagree? If all methods of internet use that any children could be harmed with are blocked from use in their surveillance state - not one child will be harmed. A true safe space.
And if their citizens bypass the protections by illegally installing and using these programs - that's a GB problem. Imprison those scofflaws - they are probably pedophiles anyhow.
Great Britain should do a top to bottom review, and any program or app that can in ay conceivable way harm even one child, that software should be made illegal for any of their citizens to ever use. For they at least, have thought of the children.
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I don't think Great Britain is alone in this "surveil everything, collect all data, spy on all citizens" lockstep march towards the precipice. It seems to be happening worldwide now. I mean, there was a time the world governments did this shit somewhat secretively. The "Information Age" has forced it out into the open. You can't actively say, "We're going to spy on all your communications, especially the ones you think are secure," and then pretend that it's for the good of the people, yet they keep trying
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You are right that it is worrying. But your dismissal is wrong.
The UK is in a very different situation, and has a very different recent history, than the US.
It first had the long period of IRA terrorism. People may have forgotten, but this period included the attempted assassination of the entire UK Cabinet including Prime Minister. People in the US get very excited about the January 6 riot. That was nothing compared to what the IRA attempted when they bombed Brighton. But there were also many straight
Re: Wonderful (Score:2)
"So, unfortunately, I think Apple is wrong and the Government probably right. I don't like it one little bit. But that seems to be how it is. You don't defeat murderous terrorism by playing by the rules"
Right, that's why apple must not give in. The government of the UK has committed murder plenty of times, and they want back doors so they can figure out who else they want to murder.
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So, unfortunately, I think Apple is wrong and the Government probably right.
Then Apple removing those applications is helping the Government in Great Britain.
Look at it this way. In order to protect the Children, Great Britian can itself produce applications that have all things Great Britain needs and demands. Applications that are by design completely unencrypted, and every meeting be recorded at Whatever ministry is set up to protect children and eliminate terrorism.
100 percent observed and anyone doing anything illegal can be arrested and imprisoned as is needed.
This i
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Nobody is going to read all that shit man.
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does anyone read history any more?
England started colonizing the world in the 16th century. In that time,
YesI've read a lot of history, and you are right, England has been pretty awful. History does tell us however, that England hasn't cornered the market on asshattery.
Germany, much of Europe, Russia, Africa, Middle east, east Asia, China, Japan, Korea. And of course, the US.
Antartica's citizens appear to not be dicks. Oh, wait - they are penguins. 8^)
History shows us that humans in general are assholes. Solipsistic, with an ingrained need to hate "the other". Then we engage in our core competency of k
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> Great Britain should do a top to bottom review, and any program or app that can in ay conceivable way harm even one child, that software should be made illegal for any of their citizens to ever use.
You mean like the Internet as such, and every conceivable (and inconceivable) web browser?
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> Great Britain should do a top to bottom review, and any program or app that can in ay conceivable way harm even one child, that software should be made illegal for any of their citizens to ever use.
You mean like the Internet as such, and every conceivable (and inconceivable) web browser?
That is kind of how it ends up, isn't it?
The ultimate nanny state.
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1984 was a cautionary tale, not a blueprint.
As Britain slides further into a weird world of surveillance, disguised as "Won't someone think of the children?" is it the only appropriate response to make - cut 'em off. No program for you and your citizens.
And how could The so very concerned lawmakers in Great Britain disagree? If all methods of internet use that any children could be harmed with are blocked from use in their surveillance state - not one child will be harmed. A true safe space.
And if their citizens bypass the protections by illegally installing and using these programs - that's a GB problem. Imprison those scofflaws - they are probably pedophiles anyhow.
Great Britain should do a top to bottom review, and any program or app that can in ay conceivable way harm even one child, that software should be made illegal for any of their citizens to ever use. For they at least, have thought of the children.
Ninteen Eighty-Four was an allegory to Nazi Fascism. Most people quoting the book dont seem to understand the theme behind the imagery, though Nineteen Eighty-Four is the most quoted book by those who've never read it. I'm considerably less concerned about the UK descending into it than the US, which has had people actively starting a fascist insurrection.
This kind of law is being pushed through by a government that knows it's done for and is just trying to pass whatever they can to help their friends o
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As much as I hope the Tories get wiped out at the next election, I have my doubts. You may remember the famous Spitting Image sketch where Major and his cabinet go door to door campaigning. The first guy they meet remarks that his business went bust and his house is being repossessed, but when asked who he was going to vote for he replies "I suppose I'll vote Tory again."
The British electorate has a short memory and many of them will vote for anyone with the right colour badge.
I think the most likely outcom
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I think the most likely outcome is a hung parliament.
A bit of something for the ladies, right? ;^)
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Ninteen Eighty-Four was an allegory to Nazi Fascism. Most people quoting the book dont seem to understand the theme behind the imagery, though Nineteen Eighty-Four is the most quoted book by those who've never read it.
I'm considerably less concerned about the UK descending into it than the US, which has had people actively starting a fascist insurrection.
A couple notes here. 1984 was modeled after the regimes of Josef Stalin and Nazi Germany. It was a cautionary tale about totalitarianism, which knows no specific political. The National socialists were a far right wing regime (despite the word "socialism", and the USSR was left with communist.
People like to reference 1984 and tend to do so in reference to their political views - more accurately claiming the "other side" is trying to implement the regime described in the novel.
I'm doing nothing of the s
Gulag England (Score:3, Informative)
This is only one part of a multi-pronged assault on civil liberties in the UK. Let's look at what has already been done in the UK, and what is being discussed...
* The recent Public Order Act means that people can be arrested and detained when they have not committed an offence, and without any evidence that they have been conspiring to commit an offence. This might sound ridiculous, except that a group of volunteers handing out rape alarms to women had exactly that happen to them.
* The Public Order Act also means that protests which delay traffic, trains or airports are now illegal. So a go-slow protest around the slow lane of the M25 could result in all the participants being jailed.
* The UK is fourth on the global list of surveillance cameras per capita, albeit a long way behind China and America.
* During a recent trial of facial recognition software people who covered their faces were stopped by police and ID checked even though there was no suspicion that an offence had been committed.
* The government is suggesting 'pay per mile' road charging. Who needs ANPR if the police can just look at where you car has been. Speeding tickets all round too I expect.
* The government is now trying to make private communications on the internet illegal too.
I'm sure the government will say that all this surveillance is to prevent offences being committed. But it is also putting all the apparatus in place for a repressive government to redefine a few 'offences' and create a police state.https://apple.slashdot.org/story/23/07/20/137251/apple-slams-uk-surveillance-bill-proposals-threatens-to-remove-facetime-and-imessage#
E2E is only secure... (Score:2)
OK (Score:2)
Apple says it will remove services such as FaceTime and iMessage
OK, so what are those and why should I care?