Unionized Apple Store Workers Want You To Start Tipping Them (businessinsider.com) 242
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Insider: Employees at Apple's first unionized store in Towson, Maryland are pushing for a contract that includes the introduction of tipping. The proposed system would allow customers to tip store workers in increments of 3%, 5%, or a customized amount for in-store credit card transactions. It's part of a broader list of economic proposals as the union heads into negotiation with Apple. Bloomberg first reported the details of the proposals Wednesday. The employees at the Towson store organized as the Coalition of Organized Retail Employees in June when they voted to be represented by The International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers.
CORE's Twitter account outlined some of the proposals in a thread on Thursday, where it acknowledged the tipping system might be a "little controversial." "A big ask from our team when preparing for negotiations was to include some sort of profit-sharing or bonus structure," the union said in the thread. "We thought a lot about the easiest way to accomplish this and we thought adopting a model already used by other workers who provide services to their community might be the simplest to implement." The union also noted that "all monies collected through this manner would be dispersed to members of the bargaining unit biweekly based on any hours worked." Other proposals for negotiation with Apple include expanding Apple's list of paid holidays, increasing vacation time for full-time and part-time employees, and offering wellness leave.
They're also asking Apple to double pay for staffers who work over 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week, double overtime weekend pay, increased pay for first-aid certified workers, and offering a maximum of 34 weeks of severance pay after layoffs. "We realize that this is a negotiation, and these are initial proposals," said a union representative. "Our goal is and always has been to bring back an acceptable contract for the membership to ratify."
CORE's Twitter account outlined some of the proposals in a thread on Thursday, where it acknowledged the tipping system might be a "little controversial." "A big ask from our team when preparing for negotiations was to include some sort of profit-sharing or bonus structure," the union said in the thread. "We thought a lot about the easiest way to accomplish this and we thought adopting a model already used by other workers who provide services to their community might be the simplest to implement." The union also noted that "all monies collected through this manner would be dispersed to members of the bargaining unit biweekly based on any hours worked." Other proposals for negotiation with Apple include expanding Apple's list of paid holidays, increasing vacation time for full-time and part-time employees, and offering wellness leave.
They're also asking Apple to double pay for staffers who work over 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week, double overtime weekend pay, increased pay for first-aid certified workers, and offering a maximum of 34 weeks of severance pay after layoffs. "We realize that this is a negotiation, and these are initial proposals," said a union representative. "Our goal is and always has been to bring back an acceptable contract for the membership to ratify."
NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: NO (Score:2)
Re: NO (Score:3)
Re: NO (Score:5, Insightful)
But then again, why should you tip someone in the diner?
Waitstaff are underpaid because there is a cultural expectation in America that they will receive tips.
This is a stupid system. Tipping should go away. Waitstaff should be fairly paid, and the price of restaurant food should be increased to pay for it. But that is unlikely to happen, so, for now, we are stuck with it.
Extending this stupid system to retail is a terrible idea.
I sometimes buy at the Apple Store, because the prices are identical to online, so if I'm at the mall anyway, why not? If tipping is added, I'll go 100% online.
Re: NO (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Absolutely not.
Concur. I mean, what genius thought this up? Oh, wait.
Re: (Score:3)
The workers shouldn't want tips either. Just negotiate a living wage with annual adjustments for inflation and leave tipping in the dumpster of horrible ideas.
No. They they don't know better than tips. (Score:5, Insightful)
"A big ask from our team when preparing for negotiations was to include some sort of profit-sharing or bonus structure," the union said in the thread.
"We thought a lot about the easiest way to accomplish this and we thought adopting a model already used by other workers who provide services to their community might be the simplest to implement."
I.e. Their union representatives are poorly educated and terrible at their job. Or even doing basic research on what their job entails.
Thus the "idea" to come all Oliver Twist-like, begging to "Please, sir, may I have some more please?" - but without the balls to dare to EVEN ASK to inconvenience the management monetarily.
So, uneducated as they are, and tasked to ask for a bigger crumb of the 394.33 billion U.S. dollars pie, they too worked to produce, [statista.com] they fell back on what they know - waitressing.
That's some depressing shit right there.
Re:NO (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously, what the fuuuuck.
Isn't this why you'd unionize, to get the employer to actually pay you?
Re: (Score:2)
I can't even imagine that any employee would even want this, what next, postmen asking for tips? Bus drivers? Cinema staff?
Re: (Score:3)
Tipping requests are already out of hand.
Some counter service fast-food (e.g. 5 guys) has a tipping screen with a 20% default.
Hell no, I will not be guilted into tipping you for providing the 'service' of hitting a few buttons. No and no.
Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Agree that tipping is a terrible idea, as it creates incentive for sales staff to pressure people into buying. Better to just up regular and overtime pay. But honestly? I like that they are thinking outside the box!
And let's be clear - what's happening now, looking at the headlines, is that owner-friendly media are laser-focused on this one thing in an effort to taint the whole effort as ridiculous. :-P
Re: Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:2)
The tipping system is pushed to lure people with a lower sticker value.
Pay your employees what they are worth, don't screw them over.
Re: (Score:2)
Apple retail employees are paid well above the minimum wage, which is the prevailing rate for most retail employees. The floor worker selling stuff starts around $10/hr, while the Genius starting wage is $15/hr. And that's starting, and that was the wage nearly a decade ago.
This isn't some retail employee paid $8/hr, or a restaurant employee paid $5/hr (or less) expected to ma
Re: (Score:3)
Can anyone living anywhere near an apple store survive on $10 or $12 an hour? That might be minimum wage but it doesn't sound like an amount of money that someone can live off of if they're not living in their parents basement.
Re: Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:2)
I don't get it. Apple makes things cheap in bulk in China. They sell them at a massive markup because they are shiny fashion accessories. Apple don't make enough to pay their retail workers?
People don't pay massive apple mark up and expect the retail workers to be short-changed.
Re:Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:5, Insightful)
LMAO ... When will this tipping culture die? People need to get paid a fair wage across the board.
It will die when enough people decline to tip.
This would probably be the single dumbest thing that these employees could possibly ask for in a contract. Nobody is going to go into a store to buy a computer and tip the employees. Even a 5% tip on a $700 phone is more than their hourly wage. Even a 1% tip on a high-end laptop would be an absurd tip. So unless you just made it a flat amount like $1, $5, $10, most people will tap "No tip".
But the problem is that then they'll feel bad about doing so. And then they'll start feeling uncomfortable about shopping at that store, and then they'll start buying everything online, and the store's traffic will dry up, and the store will close.
No, tipping is the wrong model. If anything, they should be pushing for a sales commission, where they get some small fraction of the purchase price as part of their salary on top of their normal pay, and the amount is negotiated ahead of time as part of the contract. But even that model doesn't make sense if you aren't selling things. For the folks doing repairs (and other non-sales jobs), that model doesn't work.
Really, the right answer is to push for higher salaries.
Re: Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:2)
Sales commission or a bonus if the sales exceeds what you have predicted.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:2)
Re: Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:2)
No, tipping is the wrong model. If anything, they should be pushing for a sales commission,
Fuck that, then they just put sales pressure on customers, get snooty if you come in without buying anything, etc, which is equally annoying and likewise makes you prefer to shop online instead.
Re: (Score:2)
It's probably part of a negotiating tactic. I don't think anyone really expects tipping to happen at an Apple Store.
Re: (Score:2)
Sales Commission ... encourages them to get the customer to buy the most expensive version and all the extras ... ...which is why I ask if they are on commission and when they say yes I ignore any advice they give making their entire job pointless
Re: Tipping retail store workers??? (Score:2)
It's going the wrong way. It just keeps getting worse. In some other countries you can go to a shop or restaurant and the sticker price or the price on the menu is exactly what you pay. You know where you stand.
Just charge a price that covers all costs so everyone knows where they stand. It's a lame business that expects staff to work for charity.
Older than that [Re:GenZs Need to Create and W...] (Score:2)
Tipping culture is a direct result of GenZ's concept of "job creation,"
I hate to break this to you, but tipping culture started well before Gen Z was born.
What's with all the recent intergenerational sniping, by the way?
Re: (Score:2)
Case in point, theres an entire scene based around tipping culture at the start of the 1992 film Reservoir Dogs
Re: (Score:2)
I hate to break this to you, but there are people who have at least 30 years on you, easily, and remember when there was no such thing as "tipping culture" decades ago, to where it was considered both mandatory and bad form,
Tipping began in Tudor England [wikipedia.org].
From Wikipedia: "By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the host's servants"
to where people had to sweat bullets calculating how much they should leave, if at all.
That's a "you" thing. There is no need to sweat bullets about tips.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
GenZ is defined as born from the mid-90's to 2010's which puts the majority of them squarely under 30. Most of the largest gig work companies were founded by Millenials who are now in their late 30's are 40's.
GenZ probably works gig jobs that doesn't necessarily mean they created gig work or even support it necessarily but those are jobs that are available.
To blame essentially the new young generation for the poor state of things as we sit today isto me a bit shortsighted. Millenials created the gig econo
Re: GenZs Need to Create and Want to Work Real Job (Score:2)
GenX's parents were complaining about the evils of tipping culture long before genZ existed.
I agree that genZ did create a load more essentially frivolous jobs that depend on tips. If I buy food from a delivery service they bump up the price of the food maybe 10 to 20%, they add a service fee, then they ask for a tip as well. If you add it all up you can end up paying twice as much to order from a restaurant that's no more than a short walk away. And even then they take your food on a tour of town while the
Re:GenZs Need to Create and Want to Work Real Jobs (Score:4, Informative)
You should learn a little yourself before teaching lies.
Wikipedia says tipping for service goes back to the 1500s, and was imported into America from Europe in the 1850s, before slavery was abolished.
Re: (Score:2)
Sure, tipping for exceptional service, or if you were wealthy, to show how wealthy you were.
Tipping all the time is just fronting if you're poor, and/or a bad patch on people being paid less than a living wage.
Re: (Score:3)
Oh hell no! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm all for unions when working conditions are unfair - and also to keep them fair. But unionized workers should hit on their employers, not on the customers.
Just look at what happened in hospitality: tipping is almost compulsory, employees almost can't make a decent living without gratuity, and the employers get away with paying their employees like shit because this arrangement has become the norm now.
Don't go down that road Apple Store workers: Apple will laugh at you all the way to the bank and you'll end up dependent on Apple customer's willingness to part voluntarily with their hard-earned - something they're unlikely to be in the mood for after paying for an Apple product. Demand better wages from Apple: the customer will end up paying as part of the product price, but they won't have a choice.
Re: (Score:2)
No, not whatever it takes. I'm very supportive of labor, but that doesn't mean I support auto workers who want to slow down the rise of EV cars. (Because it takes fewer worker hours to build them) I'd rather see the workers and towns who are on the losing end of the transition get all of the support they need to build up new skills and businesses.
Re: Oh hell no! (Score:2)
Where do you get the impression that is impossible from?
The electrical grid is built for peak load plus some. There are many times of the day where load is very low.
You don't put 100 million cars on the road in a day though. That takes years and the electrical system will also change in those years.
Re: (Score:2)
Price is determined by the market, not by the costs of any particular business. If the Apple Store can't offer a competitive value proposition, people will buy it elsewhere.
Your poor negotiation is not a customer problem (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems someone convinced them that the American service industry has it "figured out" and tipping is "the way".
Wake up kids, the tipping pathway is for suckers! Businesses are not stupid, and you are not getting a leg up on the game with this move.
You will soon find your hourly wage reduced to far less than minimum wage, because workers that earn tips are not subject to the same minimum wage labor regulation that you are currently accustomed. Go ask your friends that earn tips about the ins and outs of this game -- be sure you fully understand that they are intentionally dipping the tax man whenever they rake cash off a table, and that they get "fucked" whenever the tip comes via card payment against the check.
tldr; you're being played.
NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: NO (Score:2)
The union suckers think it's all about them, but it's a load of shit. Unions in America have never amounted to being anything more than a way for the Mafia to extort both the employers and the employees. Even big unions like AFL-CIO that you wouldn't think have mafia ties have more than once been caught making backdoor deals without any involvement of their so called members while taking kickbacks.
Re: (Score:2)
And that's fair. I don't mind paying the price that's on the sticker.
I mind being guilt-tripped into paying more than it says on the sticker. I mind being lied to about how much money they actually want me to pay.
Bad show (Score:2)
Most of their demands are reasonable, but that one makes them look greedy. I wonder what the purpose of this article is.
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder what the purpose of this article is.
Since people are largely averse to viewing pages containing nothing but ads, some companies came up with the idea of putting other content on the page as well. The idea is that, the other content will cause people to click on the page links, and once there, the reader will incidentally view the ads as well.
In exchange for displaying their ads to the reader, the company requests payment from advertisers, and the rates they can receive are often dependent on how mo
Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
How about no? (Score:5, Insightful)
On second thought, how about "fuck off!"
fine with me (Score:2)
I'll expect them to be making me a fancy custom coffee or other drink I desire, and handing it to me as part of their explanation of the latest iPhone.
This is going to be expensive for the store, though. They will have to install a kitchen and bar, and deal with the lawsuits over spilled hot drinks, and clean and replace a lot of counters and shorted-out Macbook pros, when the customers bump into each other or whatever and spill their coffee all over the place. I'll tip $2 for that.
If you think I'm going to
Starbucks (Score:2)
Those Apple workers are going to wind up at Starbucks when Apple pulls out of Maryland.
Re: (Score:2)
Those Apple workers are going to wind up at Starbucks when Apple pulls out of Maryland.
Probably pays better anyway, with the tips.
Re: (Score:3)
If these floor attendants think their time is more valuable than what they're getting paid, they should all walk out. If Maryland doesn't have any place to buy an Apple produce or get support, or if you have to pay a lot more for it, that's what Maryland legislators wanted, I guess.
It's interesting that you mention the value of your time because it's nearly impossible to get in an out of an Apple store while these sales monkeys "show their stuff" you have to wait around already knowing what you want to buy and then they spend a few additional minutes trying to sell you shit, puffing up the Apple brand, giving you a meaningless compliment, and whatever stupid fucking sales tactics. Yo I got here 25 minutes ago knowing what I wanted and no I'm not buying a Time Machine, HomePod, Extend
Are there negotiators incompetent? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Is "trillions" the new "exponentially more?" This is the second time I've seen someone (maybe you?) throw out the t word with apparently no clue how big a number that is.
Re: (Score:2)
It's the market cap. Not the best metric for the OP to use, but don't distract from the actual point.
Apple has an insane amount of money and is paying out $90 billion in share buybacks and dividends: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/0... [cnbc.com]
They can pay the employees.
Re:Are there negotiators incompetent? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah yes, it's not innumeracy, or lying, it's poetic license.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I realize most people don't understand what a market cap is, but equating it with any sort of cash really goes into "aw, that's cute, now go play and let the grownups talk" territory.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The OP claimed "Apple computer is literally sitting on trillions of dollars of cash". That is not correct and neither are you. Literally.
Re: No (Score:3)
/facepalm
They don't have anywhere near a trillion in cash. They have two trillion in market capitalization. That is not cash. That's the fair market value of your shares multiplied by the total number of shares outstanding. Suppose for argument's sake that they actually own half of those shares, which they don't, -- they still can't even actually get that amount worth of cash even if they sold them.
This is exactly why your economic commentary is worth even less than the bandwidth you used to send it across
Re: (Score:2)
You're right. The credible estimate of their actual cash on hand is closer to $51.355 billion [history-computer.com] than $1T. That is still way, way, way too much.
Re: (Score:2)
Same as anywhere else. Whatever the market dictates.
If they can find employees that meet their needs for $25/hour (52K) then that is the beginning wage. If they hire a new employee and they accept $22/hour then that is the new hiring wage. If they don't get enough qualified candidates, then they raise the offered wage.
Why would a company pay more than the going rate in a specific location? The cost of living in Fargo, ND is not the same as NYC. However, if you want service workers to work in San Fransi
Re: Are there negotiators incompetent? (Score:2)
But they often don't move out. They have this idea that if they just hold out a little longer they'll get noticed by the right person and land some dream job, so they basically work while living in their car or sharing a bedroom with four other people. But it never really comes because they think they're worth more than they really are.
People do that here in Los Angeles as well, though typically they fancy themselves a talented actor that just hasn't had their "break" yet. These are typically what the local
Re: (Score:2)
Why would a company pay more than the going rate in a specific location?
That's obvious. They can get prettier workers or ones that have whatever counts for an impressive retail resume.
Screw that (Score:2)
The rest of the tipped wage world is trying to eliminate tipping and they're over there trying to make tipping a thing? What is wrong with these people.
Re: (Score:2)
The rest of the tipped wage world is trying to eliminate tipping and they're over there trying to make tipping a thing? What is wrong with these people.
Too much time spent next to the RDF generators. Since Jobs died they've been having to produce it artificially.
No! (Score:2)
If they want to be tipped, then go work in a restaurant.
When you are paying that much for hardware, then service should be part of the deal. If they donâ(TM)t want to provide service unless tipped, then Iâ(TM)d argue they arenâ(TM)t even doing their paid job in the first place.
FUCK NO (Score:2)
No (Score:2)
no
Six little words (Score:2)
You have GOT to be kidding.
you tip dealers or make an tip bet for them but at (Score:2)
you tip dealers or make an tip bet for them but at least your sitting there with them and fun ones are nice.
Tipping ... (Score:3)
Now that they have won the right to bargain collectively, that's where their wages should come from.
perfect match (Score:2)
profit sharing (Score:4, Insightful)
Pretty soon... (Score:2)
The DMV will ask for a tip before giving us a driver's license. If no tip, no "service".
Re: (Score:2)
some days we don't let the line move at all we call them weekdays
sliding scale (Score:2)
I suppose they think the "tip" should be proportional to the number of smug and snide comments your "expert" makes.
Re: (Score:2)
I've done nothing but complain about Apple stores and how much I hate the experience. I've literally never experienced this.
Are you fscking kidding?! (Score:2)
Wow... my policy is to not tip union workers being paid based on a collective bargaining agreement. It takes a huge exception in performance to warrant even consideration.
I have been in an Apple store exactly one time. (Score:2)
And plan to never return.
How will the union deal with my dastardly refusal to participate in inflating their members' pay?
Oh COOL! (Score:2)
Cool, I remember when Cow Tipping was a thing, this sounds like even more fun !
Looking forward to the upcoming youtube videos.
Re: (Score:2)
Watching the Geniuses rolling around on the floor and making mooing sounds after you run toward them and clothesline them at full speed should be hilarious! Engaged in their phones deeply, they should be less aware than most sleeping cows, and thus ripe for the picking!
Off is the direction in which they can fuck. (Score:2)
Off is the direction in which they can fuck.
For this, no (Score:2)
Ohhhh Helll Nooooo (Score:2)
Enough with the tipping!!!! We were told when everyone is making a living wage of $15, $18.. etc no more tipping. Everything is wayyy too expensive and Walmart is now paying $15.00 an hour starting wage. Apple wants a pretty penny for their stuff and they can pay their workers enough. NOT TIPPING AT THE APPLE STORE, WHEN AN IPHONE is a grand.
100% the wrong direction (Score:2)
I'd like to see wait staff be paid a decent wage so we can do away with this tipping nonsense. And some sales drone thinks I'm paying them a tip for selling an overpriced chunk of metal and plastic?
Why only 3% or 5%? (Score:2)
Just set default options of 15/20/25 like many restaurants. Steve Jobs must be rolling in his grave!
Hell no. (Score:2)
I only tip restaurant workers because they are paid way below the minimum wage. Which should not be a thing. I'll be damned if I will start tipping retail workers. Especially hipster Apple douches.
I thought that was the whole purpose of an iPad (Score:2)
That is to prompt customers to tip employees at the point of sale.
Re: (Score:2)
Not sure if this was supposed to be a joke, but I figure that could be a part of it.
If you're working as an Apple Genius(tm) you're likely the type who orders delivery from an app on your iPhone, always seeing the tip prompt there. Always seeing the tip prompt on the table-tablet when you go out to eat. And if you have work experience outside of being a Genius, it's probably at a restaurant, or another tipped position.
So not only are you inclined to believe tablets are for tipping, but that tipping is the p
Threat of Spittle (Score:2)
Honestly the only reason I tip delivery drivers and restaurant workers is because I'm afraid they'll spit on my food if I don't. Apple store workers don't really have this "incentive."
See the fine print (Score:2)
It's bad-enough they want customers, not a trillion-dollar company, to give them a pay-rise, it also won't be a reward for individual effort. The competent people will leave for better pay (as they should) and the incompetent people won't get a pay-rise because they can 'earn' tips instead.
This also discourages repeat business as customers refusing to tip, will be served last.
No. Apple has the money, obviously (Score:2)
I brought a 2 year old iPad, out of warranty, to the Apple store.
It won't see the charger half the time. Apple guy replicated the fault.
Didn't see any socket problems. He said they'll replace it with a refurb.
For $500.
Tip them. Yeah, ok.
Why not? (Score:2)
The reaction here seems unanimous, it is a big NO! That's mine too.
But I come from a country where tipping is not expected in any job.
Here most reply come from people who live in a country where tipping is everywhere, and sometimes as high as 20%, and yet, are shocked by the idea that Apple Store workers would want tips too. I mean, what's so special about waiters and other tipping professions?
Think different. (Score:2)
What is rather telling is that the sales industry already has a mechanism for pay for performance. Itâ(TM)s called being paid on commission. Although you may have never heard of it, a store called Microcenter gives commission bonuses. The important thing here is that the bonus is paid out of the profits from the wholesale business model. It is obvious that Apple does not want to lose a shred of profit, and so the tipping seems to be a makeshift attempt at profit sharing on the part of the union.
It
No F'ing Way (Score:2)
This bullshit of tipping being pushed in retail is just one of the more blatant methods of the ownership class to extract wealth by shifting more and more of the wages directly upon the consumer while not reducing the cost of whatever product or service commensurately.
Eat the rich after vivisecting them.
Tips? I don't even want to talk to you! (Score:2)
When I go to an Apple store it's always hard to get help and buying items is locked behind getting one of these fucker's attention. I feel for them wanting more money but I don't even like talking to them, they're an obstacle between me and what I want to buy and it's set up like that so they can get an opportunity to try a few sales tactics on me.
Yeah no fucking tip the solution to low retail wages is not tipping I will not even go to the fucking mall if this becomes a thing. I'm already a great tipper w
Tip? (Score:2)
Thy would I tip the guys in the store where I buy some phone shipped from China? And if they give bad service because I didn't tip, why buy in their store instead of buying online?
Hey America (Score:3)
Trying to workout who to tip and how much is one of the most annoying things about visiting the USA. It makes everything needlessly more complicated and taints the experience of spending time in the USA.
Re: hahahhahahahhaha (Score:2)
I don't really understand how apple have made such an inefficient shopping experience. I walk in wanting to buy something and they demand I make an appointment. Wtf? The shops look and feel like Argos but without the efficiency and automation. Truly we live in a magical era.
Re: (Score:2)
It's braindead negotiation. Apple doesn't want to pay, workers want more money, so to meet in the middle I'm supposed to tip someone who makes me wait 20 minutes to get a phone and then as a "courtesy" they want to help set it up. No no beep my fucking card and let me go so you can "service" someone else who wants to get out of here.
Re: (Score:2)
You don't even get the option to simply walk up to a desk and buy it. They need to get done "helping" people with dumb fucking questions "can this phone send messages with pictures? How do I do that?"
Well after all these people are helped they can come over and scan my phone that I knew I wanted when I came in and has been sitting in my hand for the past 20 minutes. It's all about the "experience". They don't want people to leave, they want the store looking full and cool and they want you to have to l