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Businesses Apple IT

Apple Demands Employees Return to Office At Least Three Days a Week (inc.com) 175

Posted by EditorDavid from the bite-of-the-Apple dept.
"On Monday, Apple told employees at its headquarters in Cupertino, California, that they would have to return to the office at least three days a week by September 5," according to a columnist for Inc. First reported by Bloomberg, Tim Cook told employees in an email that they would be expected to be in the office on Tuesdays and Thursdays, with teams choosing a third day that works best for them...

Apple SVP of software Craig Federighi followed up Cook's email with one of his own, saying that he "can't wait to experience the special energy of having all of us back in the office together again!" That's great, but I imagine a lot of the people who work in the software organization are wondering whether that "special energy" actually makes them more productive, or if it's just a thing managers feel as they watch employees be productive at their desks... [T]hat's not the same thing as actual collaboration.
Here's the article's main point: [M]any companies — especially Apple — had their best two years ever when most of their employees were working from home. If anything, it seems as though the evidence pointing to the idea that it was better for the company.... Apple's market cap in March 2020 was $1.1 trillion. Today, it's just shy of three times that....

[I]t's as if Apple hasn't learned anything.
Apple's memo did say that some employees — "depending on your role" — would have the option of working fully remotely "for up to four weeks a year."
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Apple Demands Employees Return to Office At Least Three Days a Week More

Apple Demands Employees Return to Office At Least Three Days a Week

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  • In related news (Score:5, Funny)

    by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:39PM (#62806443)

    Apple has just launched a hiring spree to fill many open positions.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Ziest ( 143204 )

      Yep, all their best people will jump ship to other companies that will let them work fully remote. Apple, Google, Tesla, and all the other companies that are demanding their people work 100% in the office just don't seem to get that working remote has become another benefit like health insurance and stock options. Just think about the fate of a company that does not offer health benefits to it people. Steve Jobs dies and everyone at Apple forgets how to think. I give it a years before Apple is suffering fro

      • Re:In related news (Score:5, Insightful)

        by shanen ( 462549 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @01:15PM (#62806517) Homepage Journal

        Interesting FP thread, but I think it's an exaggeration to say "all their best people will jump ship". However I do have an old anecdote from my TI days that indicates some of the best people might hate Apple's new policy.

        TI had (in a division that was later sold to HP) a dual promotion ladder, and many of the people high on the technical side were rather reclusive and tended to spend lots of time shut up in their private offices. (I was just a low-level flunky in a cubicle out in the bullpen.) Seemed pretty clear that they wanted to avoid distractions, and for such people working at home would be quite attractive. (Though this reminds me of one guru who was in the bullpen with us even though I'm pert' shure he could have had an office if he wanted one. (Which raises the question of exactly when he jumped to Microsoft? After I left, for sure.))

        But my main point would be that people differ quite a bit, so the demand for this level of uniformity in behavior is likely to be problematic, especially for a company that may actually need to encourage creativity to remain competitive. I'm giving Apple the benefit of the doubt here, because (based on my experiences I believe that) most large companies are lying when they say they want innovation. True innovations tend to rock the boat, and the CxO managers are prone to thinking that their own big boat is leading "the race" and they don't want to rock it.

        However, overlaying this topic is the question of "What makes a company?" How much esprit de corps can you build or sustain via email? And what's it worth?

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by thegarbz ( 1787294 )

          How much esprit de corps can you build or sustain via email?

          Email? What is this 1999? Are you not video conferencing and interacting on virtual whiteboards or have multiple users editing documents concurrently?

          Join us in this century, and the answer is "email" very little, but "email" is not the communication method currently employed for remote work. It's the modern day equivalent of a fax.

        • .

          However, overlaying this topic is the question of "What makes a company?" How much esprit de corps can you build or sustain via email? And what's it worth?

          Agreed here. A side trip that is related. Social media. We get into arguments with others, using statements most of us never use in person. That's because my hypothesis is that when on a computer screen, we tend not to think of the person on the other side as a person.

          They are just a sort of computer game where we fight with the computer.

          As I've noted, In my latest employ I am 50 percent at home, 50 percent on location. The 50 percent on location is critical. Aside from a need for a physical presence

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Dottie Matrix ( 7721008 )

        demanding their people work 100% in the office just don't seem to get that working remote has become another benefit

        Many city budgets are dependent on having workers in the office and spending money at nearby businesses. If employees work from home and spend money in the boonies, cities will have to cut their budget and/or raise taxes to maintain services.

        • Many city budgets are dependent on having workers in the office and spending money at nearby businesses. If employees work from home and spend money in the boonies, cities will have to cut their budget and/or raise taxes to maintain services.

          I actually work in the corporate network group of my local city government. We have just finalized a framework for employees who are able to continue to work from home permanently, though most people will probably come in for a day or two a week. It is already hard to attract good staff (benefits are great but wages trail the private sector). They don't want to lose the people they have. Some councilors are concerned about the effect on local businesses, but that seems to have taken a backseat to remain

          • Re:In related news (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:55PM (#62806663)
            A lot of Silicon Valley commercial developments for the next ten years are planning for people to be in the office. If work from home becomes the norm, office space for 250,000+ employees will stand empty. That will cause the real estate market and the tax base to crash big time.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Opportunist ( 166417 )

          You forgot to mention why I, or my employer, would give a fuck.

      • Yep, all their best people will jump ship to other companies that will let them work fully remote. Apple, Google, Tesla, and all the other companies that are demanding their people work 100% in the office just don't seem to get that working remote has become another benefit like health insurance and stock options.

        Taking something away is perceived more negatively than giving something. The question is how negatively will it be perceived. I suspect taht will be across teh spectrum and some will leave, some grumble but stay, and others like being back.

        Just think about the fate of a company that does not offer health benefits to it people. Steve Jobs dies and everyone at Apple forgets how to think. I give it a years before Apple is suffering from serious brain drain and reverses course.

        I suspect many like the benefits, work environment and colleagues that they stick around. After a while, hybrid will be the new normal. Apple is a good employer, and while some may find 100% remote work elsewhere I suspect as other attractive companies do the same t

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by tsm_sf ( 545316 )
          It doesn't sound like working at Apple is a lot of fun right now.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          A lot of it will depend on their commute. Companies that want people in the office, or who need people in the office, would do well to provide office space that is easier to get to and in affordable, nice places to live.

          Apple's expensive new digs are pretty much the worst case. Expensive area, bad traffic, poor public transport links...

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        Companies offering benefits is a terrible idea, one the world would be much better off without. Health benefits are the worst of that.

        Working conditions are completely different. They are absolutely something that should be negotiable, and employees are wielding unprecedented power right now. You apparently missed that Apple (and the rest of the companies you mentioned) want their employees in the office for less than half the week, not "100% in the office." That was unthinkable three years ago.

        I expect the

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by N1AK ( 864906 )
        It's a pretty major, and ridiculous, assumption that all their best people care so much about being at home 100% of the time that they'll leave even if there was an equally appealing opportunity waiting for them. As to bringing Steve Jobs into it, the article literally uses the fact that Apple's company value has increased massively post-Jobs, and during lockdown, people were claiming Apple's success in the few years after he left was the pipeline he built but he died 11 years ago and profits are currently

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
          It's not about being at home all the time, it's about not having to waste time and money on the daily commute, freeing up the time and money usually spent on commuting for doing other stuff. There are ofc people that hate the office for other reasons then cummuting

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        Yep, all their best people will jump ship to other companies that will let them work fully remote. Apple, Google, Tesla, and all the other companies that are demanding their people work 100% in the office ...

        No, most teams at Google will allow employees to request to be fully remote, with most of the exceptions being obvious, e.g. data center workers, cafeteria staff, facilities, and similar positions whose fundamental nature requires employees to be physically on-site.

        I'm pretty sure that among big tech, Apple and Tesla stand alone in this regard, so the revolving door between Apple and Google... it's probably going to become a one-way trapdoor for a lot of folks after this. Apple will continue to be prestigi

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Yep. The stupid is strong with these "leader".

  • Id like to see the data (Score:5)

    by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:44PM (#62806457)
    In education, there is strong proof that student learning was much worse in a remote setting. At the population level. Pulling students back into the physical classroom is clearly better for learning. It sucks for the few students who thrive remotely, but the numbers show that there just arent many of them. Ive seen data showing this.

    I wish there could be similar studies at companies that we could see. Too bad every company will consider that sort of data to be trade secret.

    Tim Cook is a data guy though. I would hope these decisions are data-driven, but I have my doubts. If he has proof that employee productivity went down due to remote working, he would probably be shouting that from the rooftops.

    • Re:Id like to see the data (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mridoni ( 228377 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:51PM (#62806467)

      Tim Cook is a data guy though. I would hope these decisions are data-driven, but I have my doubts. If he has proof that employee productivity went down due to remote working, he would probably be shouting that from the rooftops.

      The fact that they spent US$ 5 billion on the new doughnut- shaped office campus may also have something to do with it...

    • Having the best two years ever is more likely due to the world changing and the increase in purchases for people working from home. Along with that, there were lockdowns forcing more entertainment at home which would also increase sales. That's not to say there wasn't an increase in productivity. Even an increase in productivity could be affected greatly by the fact that people working at home had nowhere else to go.

    • In education

      Education is not an industry that is done in front of the screen, unlike most other non-service industries. I fully thrived in remote work in engineering, but when I had to give training to new recruits my feedback was "We should never do this remotely again". The wife's a teacher and she absolutely agreed. That said she did embrace some of the work from home activities even now back in the classroom, she still makes explanatory youtube videos for her students which is something that apparently has led to a

    • So well part of the remote issue is that the remote for the Majority of students was bad because most teachers had to figure it out on the fly. But to your point on Students who thrive on remote, The Denver area school district my spouse works at had a remote learning program designed that way from the ground up before the pandemic. That one does work well for students who don't do so well in person. But agree the kids like the social aspect. In fact my spouse teaches middle school so when the 6th grade

    • Now try the same with a classroom where everyone is yakking constantly and running around, coming over to you as you're trying to get your essay written and interrupting your work with meaningless bullshit every other minute and let's see again how much learning is going on.

      Because that's what the open floor office is vs. work from home.

      I'm not a student. My work does not consist of listening to someone. My work consists of having peace and quiet to concentrate.

      • A lot of people are pointing out that workers arent exactly like students. This could be very true. Im strongly in favor of companies experimenting to see what works. Personally, I think that the best approach is to customize WFH policy to the job responsibilities and to the employees individual traits. And the companies that adopt this earlier will have a first-mover advantage.

        • Let's be honest here, WFH can be seen as a benefit program that not only doesn't cost the company anything but actually helps them save money. For office space, for power, for utilities. Resistance is mostly from companies that own the offices they use and now see their real estate value plummet due to a lack of demand, and of course C-Levels who thought they're clever by buying the real estates their companies rent and now see the same development.

  • Apple wants people at work. Of the current employees donâ(TM)t want to, they are free to find other places to work. I did.

    Unless they are indentured servants. Then they can either go to work or return to their country of origin. But that again is their choice

    What is interesting if Apple were a union shop, a productive discussion might have been held to allow Apple to maintain in office staff and retain quality employees. As it is, they might lose a critical mass of good people, people expensive t

    • Agreed that Apple is mostly free to do as they wish, within legal limits of course.

      But most of us are watching like it's the maiden voyage of the world's largest airship filled with hydrogen. Tech disaster porn.

  • Steve Jobs would be proud (Score:5, Interesting)

    by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:51PM (#62806469)

    Regarless of the jerk he was, Steve Jobs had grand visions which he brought to fruition. None of it came easily and he relied heavily on others to the heavy lifting. However, one thing he stressed was the personal connection and serendipitous encounters. He stated as much to his biographer [zdnet.com]:

    "There's a temptation in our networked age to think that ideas can be developed by email and iChat — that's crazy," Jobs is quoted as having said. "Creativity comes from spontaneous meetings, from random discussions. You run into someone, you ask what they're doing, you say 'Wow,' and soon you're cooking up all sorts of ideas."

    Meeting people face to face, even people you don't know, can have unexpected results. It's why, before he died, he was arm's deep in the design of Apple's headquarters. He wanted people to bump into each other, he wanted interaction between different groups outside of the emails or electronic chats. It's why it's designed the way it is. People are funneled to certain areas and have no choice but to interact with others.

    Whine and piss and moan about Apple all you like. You can't beat the results.

    • Re: Steve Jobs would be proud (Score:5, Informative)

      by NagrothAgain ( 4130865 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @01:23PM (#62806533)
      The people who scream for full remote work are often the ones who believe they are a "rock star" that doesn't need a team. And sometimes that's true. But there's usually more long term benefit to having a good team where the senior people can mentor the junior people, and where ideas can happen spontaneously when people interact in a more random, unstructured fashion. Hybrid work gives you that benefit while still giving you time to really "hunker down" and focus.

      • Re: Steve Jobs would be proud (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Registered Coward v2 ( 447531 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @01:46PM (#62806567)

        The people who scream for full remote work are often the ones who believe they are a "rock star" that doesn't need a team. And sometimes that's true.

        I have found the number of people who actually are rock stars, vs those that think they are, differs greatly; and the true rock stars are often the most humble and enjoyable people to work with.

        But there's usually more long term benefit to having a good team where the senior people can mentor the junior people, and where ideas can happen spontaneously when people interact in a more random, unstructured fashion. Hybrid work gives you that benefit while still giving you time to really "hunker down" and focus.

        Good points. I suspect there'll be hand wring as some people who thoought they were special get told "Sorry, we've eliminated your position..." will ask why and be frustrated when the answer is "You just didn't get the job done..." and say "You never told me..." get "I never saw you..."

      • Re: Steve Jobs would be proud (Score:5, Insightful)

        by hjf ( 703092 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:18PM (#62806691) Homepage

        No, the ones who scream for full remote work are the ones like me, completely jaded by the water cooler talk, the way-too-cold AC, the noisy typer next to me in the brighlty lit open-floor plan where everyone shares a long desk (but the manager has a private office), etc.

        The "oh but the creativity suffers" is bullshit pushed by the same people who push for open floor plans to "keep the ideas flowing". Bullshit. Open floorplans are cheaper than cubicles, and that's it. And "creativity" is a feel-good term but most people aren't expected to be creative (and if it's not their role to be creative, their ideas are quickly shot down).

        • (and if it's not their role to be creative, their ideas are quickly shot down).

          At least to their face. If their idea is good, it is placed into the hands of one of the chosen 'creatives' and credit is awarded to that party.

          All while the worker-bee gets nothing, and is often unaware that their good idea was given to someone else to work on and receive rewards for (when not summarily dropped).

          Not all companies behave like this, but plenty do.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

      The CEO's job revolves around directing other people. Of course he wanted to do that in-person. The same cannot be said of engineers.

      He wanted people to bump into each other, he wanted interaction between different groups outside of the emails or electronic chats. It's why it's designed the way it is. People are funneled to certain areas and have no choice but to interact with others.

      Except you can still be anti-social and just not talk to each other, or only talk to people in your group. Not everyone is interested in hearing about a coworker's kid's birthday party for the Nth time.

      It worked better before Steve came along and made it normal to stare at your phone instead of talking to people.

      • It worked better before Steve came along and made it normal to stare at your phone instead of talking to people.

        So far that's the pithiest comment I've read in this thread. So much so that for me it's a summary rendering further discussion moot. I'm outta here - see you in some other thread!

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by hjf ( 703092 )

      Creativity comes from spontaneous meetings, from random discussions. You run into someone, you ask what they're doing, you say 'Wow,' and soon you're cooking up all sorts of ideas.

      Which works well for the creative part of the company. Susan from accounting doesn't need to "come up with ideas". And neither do I, a lowly "developer". I work for Big Corporation and was reminded several times that I get paid to code, and not to propose ideas, especially unsolicited ones.

      Pitching an idea to the CEO during elevat

      • especially in one where higher ups have a separate elevator.

        Exactly. Steve Jobs talked a good game, but I don't see his successor sitting at a table in an open-plan office, "inspiring creativity" with his co-workers and chatting about the Next Big Thing while standing at the urinal.

    • [Jobs] stated as much to his biographer:

      "There's a temptation in our networked age to think that ideas can be developed by email and iChat — that's crazy," Jobs is quoted as having said. "Creativity comes from spontaneous meetings, from random discussions. You run into someone, you ask what they're doing, you say 'Wow,' and soon you're cooking up all sorts of ideas."

      Jobs may have underestimated his own role in innovation and overestimated the role of spontaneous meetings and random discussions. After all, there were about eight years between Jobs' death and the pandemic, during which time all employees were expected to be working in-office. Yet during that time AFAICT Apple moved from 'innovation mode' to 'maintenance and tweak' mode, and I don't remember seeing much evidence of the "all sorts of ideas" that characterized Jobs' time at the helm.

    • However, one thing he stressed was the personal connection and serendipitous encounters.

      Jobs had an infamously short temper, like Balmer except without the chair throwing. I have no doubt the narcissist would have found shouting at his computer screen to be boring.

      But jokes aside you can't take anything jobs says and apply it to what is going on. Jobs died in 2011. He was not working actively as the CEO up to a year prior to that. He barely even experienced the "invention" of Facetime, let alone could comprehend how modern day video conferencing like Teams or Slack work. Bloated pieces of shit

    • I would tend to think that these demands to return to the office are middle managers trying to show that they have a reason to exist, except for Apple's case under Steve Jobs:

      FTA: However, one thing he [S. Jobs] stressed was the personal connection and serendipitous encounters...

      This certainly seems to be the case for Apple, who innovate (and recognize innovations) much better than most everyone else. But what about all of the other companies demanding people return to the office for X days per week? Is the

  • Apple needs something significant to shake up their business. Their big cash cows are drying up slowly, regulators are getting testy, and they haven't actually innovated anything in at least 10 years. Everything has been small, forgettable incremental improvements. They are doing stupid. things with R&D like a car, but are unable to make it materialize in the timeline necessary for it to work commercially. They are stagnant.

    Even the things that were innovative when conceived like the Apple Fitness p

    • Steve Jobs wasn't some magical inventor. He knew how to recognize a good idea when someone else had it, though. Right now, no one at Apple knows how to recognize good ideas.

      • Exactly the issue. They don't have a real leader in Tim Cook; he was a great transitional CEO, but... they need to transition towards something else.

        Just keep Eddie Cue away from the throne.

  • Relevance of C level (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Huitzil ( 7782388 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @01:07PM (#62806491)
    Over the years I have been fortunate to work closely with people at high levels of power and decision making. It has always been clear to me that jobs at a high level in a hierarchy use symbols and traditional social norms to reinforce power and maintain status.

    For the same reason that religious institutions build opulent temples and the hierarchy is adorned with status symbols - the people in corporate power reinforce their status with big corner offices and unquestionable loyalty from us underlings.
    I see some desperation at higher levels of executive ranks because traditional power has shifted away. Lots of leaders have 0 skills without the opulent conference room.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      That seems to nicely sum it up. The C-levels with actual skill have no isse letting their people work however they like. Like the reference to "opulent temples", it is spot on.

    • I see some desperation at higher levels of executive ranks because traditional power has shifted away. Lots of leaders have 0 skills without the opulent conference room.

      Haaa. I hope this is true, it would make my decade.
      One thing is for sure, the intimidating factor that people used to make of height (please never fall for that trick, but a lot of people do) has completely disappeared on Zoom calls.

  • prop up the value of their CEO's commercial real estate investments" - FTFY.

    Are we ever gonna stop letting these people rule over us? Don't you ever get tired of being told what to do? Why do Americans keep voting in politicians who screw them over? Why do we treat politics like reality TV instead of a means to improve our lives?

  • I recently read a posting for a job at apple (Score:3)

    by unami ( 1042872 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:09PM (#62806613)
    It was basically: We own your sad ass 24/7“ e.g. Must be available to work weekends, long hours or varying shifts when necessary to meet deadlines, 24/7“ or: Each shoot is treated as a “zero downtime”, “failure-is-not-an-option” high stakes capture where minutes equal dollars and there’s only one chance to capture amazing content.“ (it was a job as a videographer). Thanks but no thanks. (Also, video usually doesn‘t get better from badly planned jobs where you have to work through nights to meet tight deadlines. Just plan for enough budget, people and time, and educate your management that you can’t magically pull significant changes out of your hat over night - and nobody has to work himself to death.)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      That bad? They will not be getting anybody actually competent with that. The job market for actual IT experts is pretty good, more so if you also understand IT security.

      • If you look at the IBM parking lot at 5:00 it's mostly empty.
        If you look at the Apple parking lot at 7:00, it's still mostly full. Apple manages to find these kinds of people.

        (Note: this data collection is a few years out of date and things might have changed).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      you canâ(TM)t magically pull significant changes out of your hat over night - and nobody has to work himself to death.

      Wrong. Anything can be accomplished with a suitable dose of Pervitin.

  • Somebody is stuck in the past.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:18PM (#62806621)

    There will be a high price to pay for that.

  • Is all the employees have to travel on Tuesdays and Thursdays increasing congestion

    • It could be worse.

      At a company I know very well because I had the displeasure of actually working for them for the worst half year of my life, the first thing they did when the pandemic hit was to reduce the office space to about 60%. As it went back to normal, they decided it would be a good idea to get everyone back to office. Only to notice that there just ain't enough room for everyone anymore.

      Glorious idea: They "generously" told people they only have to come in 3 days a week. Genius move. 60% office s

  • How many of these people who are refusing to go back to the office... ...happen to be the same people who protested for restaurants, barbershop, nail salons, etc. workers to go back to theirs?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by swilver ( 617741 )

      Not me, I don't eat out, I shave myself and definitely don't need my nails done.

      How your question even matters eludes me as well.

  • What I Would Like To See (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aerogems ( 339274 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @07:47PM (#62807237)

    I would love to see a Fortune 100 CEO spend even a single week a year working at a random site with a desk the same as some newly hired entry level person is given. No private executive entrance, no assistant to manage your schedule, no office that probably has more sqft than most employee's entire homes, no C-Suite that keeps you physically separated from the unwashed masses. You get the same dumpy little desk or cubicle as everyone else and people don't come to your office for meetings, you have to go to one of any number of different rooms scattered around the building. You don't have your own private bathroom, you have to use the communal ones like everyone else.

    Let them experience work life like the rest of us and then tell us about how great working in the office is.

    • Something similar has been done. See Undercover Boss reality series. Allegedly it did open some C-suite eyes.

  • I started a new fully remote job in April. I have never felt more included, engaged and delighted by my coworkers than now. I have been in the games industry for 20 years as a programmer and it is such a delight working with these people.

    We work hard on communication. Things that can be emails are emails. Slack handles most of our communication. We have several optional 15 minute meetings to take a break and socialize per week, and one long programmer meeting mid-week where we get some deeper topics discussed.

    I learn more, teach more, interact more. I hated doing that stuff in an office.

    It is possible to engage and be excited to work with your colleagues, even remotely. But communication takes effort. Apple simply doesn't want to put in any effort to change; the status quo feels good to people in their 50s and 60sâ"the executives.

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