Linus Torvalds Releases Linux 5.19 - From an Apple Silicon MacBook (phoronix.com) 69
"Linus Torvalds just released Linux 5.19 as stable for the newest version of the Linux kernel..." reports Phoronix.
But they also note that on the Linux kernel mailing list, "Torvalds went on to write about his Arm-based MacBook [running an AArch64 Apple M1 SoC]... now under Linux thanks to the work of the Asahi Linux project."
Torvalds wrote: [T]he most interesting part here is that I did the release (and am writing this) on an arm64 laptop. It's something I've been waiting for for a _loong_ time, and it's finally reality, thanks to the Asahi team. We've had arm64 hardware around running Linux for a long time, but none of it has really been usable as a development platform until now.
It's the third time I'm using Apple hardware for Linux development — I did it many years ago for powerpc development on a ppc970 machine. And then a decade+ ago when the Macbook Air was the only real thin-and-lite around. And now as an arm64 platform.
Not that I've used it for any real work, I literally have only been doing test builds and boots and now the actual release tagging. But I'm trying to make sure that the next time I travel, I can travel with this as a laptop and finally dogfooding the arm64 side too.
But they also note that on the Linux kernel mailing list, "Torvalds went on to write about his Arm-based MacBook [running an AArch64 Apple M1 SoC]... now under Linux thanks to the work of the Asahi Linux project."
Torvalds wrote: [T]he most interesting part here is that I did the release (and am writing this) on an arm64 laptop. It's something I've been waiting for for a _loong_ time, and it's finally reality, thanks to the Asahi team. We've had arm64 hardware around running Linux for a long time, but none of it has really been usable as a development platform until now.
It's the third time I'm using Apple hardware for Linux development — I did it many years ago for powerpc development on a ppc970 machine. And then a decade+ ago when the Macbook Air was the only real thin-and-lite around. And now as an arm64 platform.
Not that I've used it for any real work, I literally have only been doing test builds and boots and now the actual release tagging. But I'm trying to make sure that the next time I travel, I can travel with this as a laptop and finally dogfooding the arm64 side too.
Still seems like some time until enough support (Score:2)
The Asashii linux team has clearly achieved quite a lot of things in supporting functionality. But it is clearly quite a lot of "work in progress" with things like the screen brightness and some power managenentt still being work in progress.
Re:Still seems like some time until enough support (Score:5, Insightful)
They have come a long way, especially because a lot of the Apple SoC stuff isn't documented. It would be nice if Apple provided a UEFI style bootloader so distributions of Linux that used arm64 could use that to boot. The ironic thing is that the Apple Virtualization Framework can easily boot major arm64 Linux distributions, because it emulates UEFI. Parallels and VMWare Fusion use that for the hypervisor heavy lifting on the Apple Silicon platform (arm64).
It will be nice to have a Linux distro available as fallback when the early M1/M2/etc. stuff fall out of support.
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It would be nice if Apple provided a UEFI style bootloader so distributions of Linux that used arm64 could use that to boot.
So loong as we're engaged in wis(t|h)ful, why not go all the way, and just say, it would be great if Apple provided coreboot [wikipedia.org] support. You know, like their Silicon Valley letter A-listed neighbor that makes these underspec'ked notebooks.
Dogfooding (Score:1)
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*whoosh*
Linus Torvalds releases from a MacBook (Score:5, Funny)
Do MacBooks come with built-in Linus Torvalds these days? Not sure if I welcome this development.
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Do MacBooks come with built-in Linus Torvalds these days? Not sure if I welcome this development.
He's used MacBooks for years.
Re: Linus Torvalds releases from a MacBook (Score:3)
I have usually purchased Linus Torvalds as a separate extension. Glad to know that the arrangement has worked well.
Hey! Kids! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hey! Kids! (Score:5, Funny)
Remember, inside every jumbo box of Linus Torvalds there's a free Poettering secret coding ring! Tell your mom to get you some now!
And who would not want a magic ring so they could read their logs?
Re: Linus Torvalds releases from a MacBook (Score:5, Funny)
I have usually purchased Linus Torvalds as a separate extension. Glad to know that the arrangement has worked well.
They you've been cheated. Linus Torvalds is Open Source under the GNU General Public License v3.0.
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If you're paying extra for Linus you're just getting ripped off by some disc manufacturer that is just taking Linus, who is supposed to be free (as in beer and also speech), putting him on a CD, and then selling him to you for profit. If you really need Linus on disc, just pick up a magazine with pictures of Linus on the cover, they'll usually have a pack in CD included with a copy of him.
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No, instead a macbook made him spooge.
What hardware does Linus have ? (Score:5, Funny)
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His build machine was a Threadripper not long ago.
I just flew in on an M1 powered drone. (Score:4, Funny)
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Well done. I literally grimaced from how bad that joke was.
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Fucking NERD!
I love you, dude.
Thinkpad for the win (Score:2)
This Thinkpad is an 8 core/16 thread beast of a Ryzen ultrabook. Runs long and cool too. Recommended.
Fake (Score:2, Insightful)
Just take a look at the Macbook keyboard, no IDE can be used effectively if half the keys from a full size keyboard are missing. How can he use the shortcuts? Does not even have an insert key.
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MacBooks work well with external keyboards, mice, and monitors.
Re:Fake (Score:5, Insightful)
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Same.
I like full sized keyboards, though, especially for: gaming.
But those keys above the arrow: keys never have used intentionally in my life.
Ctrl/cmd-V ... why would I use an insert key? Would perhaps make sense to map it in vim to go to insert mode, but I is good enough.
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Shift+Ins works in many contexts where Ctrl+V won't.
You can't even scroll terminal output without Shift+PgUp so it's hard to imagine doing without at least some of the function keys in a dev/test environment.
Sad thing is, a lot of the smaller keyboard layouts could still have these less-used keys available if they had decent macros, but most have only entirely useless functions connected to the "Fn" key, and no capacity to configure others.
Re:Fake (Score:4, Informative)
It doesn't sound like you've done much command-line work on a Mac.
1. The Mac uses cmd instead of ctrl for most keyboard combinations, so they all just work in terminal apps without needing special alternatives. Cmd-V pastes everywhere, including the terminal.
2. I don't know what Shift+PgUp does in your environment, but the Mac terminal also accepts PgUp (fn-up-arrow on a small keyboard), which can be combined with Cmd and Shift to get various effects [apple.com].
3. The built-in Terminal app can map any keystroke (including function keys) to any sequence of keys. There are also other terminals available if the built-in one is not enough for you.
4. When selecting text and resizing windows, terminal apps on the Mac act like a word processor window rather than a panel of character blocks. This is a huge improvement on the built-in Windows terminal.
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I know reading the articles is passe, but you could at least notice this is a thread about Linux, not darwin or whatever apple is calling their faux open source unix base these days.
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The thread was about how people can't work on a Macbook keyboard because it lacks various keys, with ins given as a main example. Granted, I should have read a little closer to see they were (facetiously?) arguing that this meant Linus couldn't possibly have been "dogfooding" an arm64 Linux release on a Macbook.
Nevertheless, I gave an example of how it is perfectly easy to get work done on a Macbook keyboard. If Linux can't provide keyboard mappings that are as useful as the Apple ones on the same keyboar
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Actually the mouse pad works on Macs just nice, too.
Surprisingly it also works in remote Terminal sessions connected to vi on the other side.
Alas, the haters ...
Where would we be in the world if you could not hate random products or random corporations. We probably would need to invent a new religion.
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There is no context where CTRL/CMD-V does not work.
The only thing you can imagine is a web site were you have for some absurd reason to enter your email address twice, and they block copy/paste. And then: Shift+Ins, would not work either, as it bottom line maps to the same GUI action.
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Which of these shortcuts aren't available on a MacBook?
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/... [geeksforgeeks.org]
Re: Fake (Score:1)
These Mac (l)users! (Score:2)
A bunch of tech n00bs! They're all about computers as an accessory! You can't get any real work done on a Mac!
Submitted using my (Intel) MacBook Pro, since someone will probably think I was being serious
Re: These Coloured Pencil users! (Score:1)
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But are you using a toyOS? Or at least, using the toyOS laptop as a dumb client only, logging to a real box elsewhere?
That's the issue, not the hardware your wetware directly interacts with.
A deserved reward for the incredible hard work (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:A deserved reward for the incredible hard work (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder what is the point in dedicating resources to reverse-engineer support for hardware that is deliberately obfuscated and not documented with specs that can change at will of its master?
This sounds really backward from a Free Software perspective.
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I wonder what is the point in dedicating resources to reverse-engineer support for hardware that is deliberately obfuscated and not documented with specs that can change at will of its master?
I think this is really a difference between the Linux philosophy and the GNU philosophy. GNU takes a very academic philosophy towards the market - it's providing what it considers valuable research, and if users care or find use for it great, if not then no skin off their backs. Linux has - I think - evolved towards a
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They just want to get something done, so Linux inevitably loses out to Microsoft or someone else who, even if the road was unfairly easier for them, can do the thing
To be fair, with Windows NT there was very limited hardware compatibility. Unsure on the server versions, but for NT 4.0 Workstation there was a floppy image that you could boot from and then provide an empty floppy and it would inspect all your hardware for compatibility with NT before you attempted to install. Much like the way I use a Live disc on a thumb drive to test pawn shop machines before buying...
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I wonder what is the point in dedicating resources to reverse-engineer support for hardware that is deliberately obfuscated and not documented with specs that can change at will of its master?
This sounds really backward from a Free Software perspective.
Well if you want an answer just look at iPhone Linux and all the people running it to free themsleves from the shackles of iOS.
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Do you have any evidence that it's "deliberately obfuscated", as opposed to just "not documented"?
As for the specs that change "at the will of its master", welcome to the real world. Buy $randomlaptopmodelxyz today, Linux works fine. Buy the "exact same" $randomlaptopmodelxyz tomorrow and they've changed the WiFi card for some crappy new version that's not yet supported by Linux.
FWIW, The Asahi people say that the Mx hardware so far is very uniform and (for example) tweaking the M1 code to run on M2 devices
Re: A deserved reward for the incredible hard work (Score:1)
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Well, Toshiba laptops were known for their long service too...
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Linus Torvalds is not RMS
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Just because it is not well documented (yet) it does not mean it is obfuscated, and most certainly not deliberated.
Apple haters ... why do you even waste breath on such topics?
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Why do the Apple fanbois (as distinct from "users") get so butthurt about it?
Desire to one day work at the Apple Genius Bar?
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cough.
Come on. What's the point? So that you can use free software on your real world hardware, which is what the point has always been.
BitKeeper comes to mind (Score:2)
Remember the last time when Linux (or Linus) associated itself with a closed project whose owner didn't appreciate reverse-engineering his intellectual property by FOSS hackers? Let's hope this time it will end better.
Re: BitKeeper comes to mind (Score:1)
This says something about the success of Asahi (Score:3)
I have been following Asahi Linux because I also have an M1 mac. I have a separate machine running Linux, so I'm fine with staying with macOS. I remember watching a long question/answer session on YouTube where Linus is at a Debian conference, and he says that he is "not an IT guy". The point he seemed to be making at the time is while he obviously enjoys working on the development of the kernel, he doesn't have time to waste debugging the other small, common issues that arise with most Linux distributions (he was complaining about root access being needed to add a printer on one of his kids' machines, IIRC). Asahi is apparently in good enough shape that he's willing to use it. I know they don't have the GPU figured out yet (they seem to be making progress) but from what Linus has described, his work environment is a bunch of terminals, so he's probably fine with that.
One of the things that concerns me about ARM and Linux is that a lot of the software that exists for Linux and is (usually because it is nonfree) not included in package managers is only available for x86. Wine is also an issue (although I did manage, on a Raspberry Pi 4, to get Box86 + Wine working together well enough to run some simple Windows applications). Even when Asahi gets to the point of fully supporting the M1 hardware, that's going to be an issue for people who are trying to just run Linux and do everything they need to do. I have a license for Microsoft Office 2007 (which is good enough for most Office documents) that works flawlessly in Wine, but it's not going to work well on a Linux machine running ARM (although maybe the M1 would be powerful enough with Box86, who knows).
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One of the things that concerns me about ARM and Linux is that a lot of the software that exists for Linux and is (usually because it is nonfree) not included in package managers is only available for x86.
You're right. But there are solutions for that, with varying levels of quality.
qemu can run foreign binaries, and if you happen to be running in a VM on your Mac, you can use Rosetta2 from within that VM for better translation.
It's only a matter of time before we've got the functionality of Rosetta2 that matters (being able to switch the ordering constraints of the CPU) inside of Linux to greatly improve qemu translation performance.
TL;DR- on Linux, different architectures aren't a show stopped for user
Stand-by for all the doesn't have feature x posts (Score:1)
Linus is obviously in favor... (Score:2)
... of anything that can break us out of the x86 near-monopoly.
If it takes Apple making proprietary-but-better hardware, so be it.
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But yes, in the desktop space specifically, I agree, I think most people are for some of the alternative architectures being scaled up so that they can compete with x86 in that space.
Ok then (Score:2)