Coinbase CEO Says Apple's Crypto Rules Highlight 'Potential Antitrust Issues' 62
Brian Armstrong, the chief executive of Coinbase, believes Apple's App Store rules have hampered the company's product roadmap, accusing the iPhone-maker of banning features from their app and generally not being friendly with the cryptocurrency industry. From a report: "Apple so far has not really played nice with crypto, they've actually banned a bunch of features that we would like to have in the app, but they just won't allow it -- so there's potential antitrust issues there," Armstrong said.
Even a bad apple can have spots without worms. (Score:1)
I'm against this kind of abuse of power but I also don't care for proof of work blockchain currency.
money laundering industry (Score:1)
Pot, meet kettle (Score:2)
What features? (Score:5, Insightful)
Specifics please. I’m guessing these features may be detrimental to user privacy or device security.
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The exact thought I had. Why does he not just say what features are the problem? Bash the big bad company because you can, but what does he not want to tell us?
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A hardware key can be more secure, but I have known enough people who have lost their hardware
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Feature #1: The ability to mine coins in the background, which would obviously chug battery. And they probably want to siphon off a small percentage of that mining effort for themselves. Seems pretty obvious.
Feature #2: The ability to transfer everyone's wallet/coins to their own account when they decide to close up shop and move to a country without an extradition arrangement with the U.S. Your coins are theirs, were always theirs, and will always be theirs.
Re:What features? (Score:5, Informative)
Answer is in the App Store review guidelines. Full text below, but my paraphrase is here:
1. You can't mine on-device
2. ICOs have to come from approved financial institutions that comply with applicable laws
3. Apps can't pay crypto for users to complete tasks (eg getting others to sign up)
That's it. That's all that's prevented
The rationale for each isn't stated, but seems pretty obvious:
1. Don't want to kill the battery
2. Reduce scam risks
3. Pyramid schemes are problematic
As you say, it'd be super-interesting to find out what the specific things are that he wants to do that he can't, because if it's any of these things, it doesn't seem to be in the interests of users *at all*.
3.1.5 Cryptocurrencies:
(i) Wallets: Apps may facilitate virtual currency storage, provided they are offered by developers enrolled as an organization.
(ii) Mining: Apps may not mine for cryptocurrencies unless the processing is performed off device (e.g. cloud-based mining).
(iii) Exchanges: Apps may facilitate transactions or transmissions of cryptocurrency on an approved exchange, provided they are offered by the exchange itself.
(iv) Initial Coin Offerings: Apps facilitating Initial Coin Offerings (“ICOs”), cryptocurrency futures trading, and other crypto-securities or quasi-securities trading must come from established banks, securities firms, futures commission merchants (“FCM”), or other approved financial institutions and must comply with all applicable law.
(v) Cryptocurrency apps may not offer currency for completing tasks, such as downloading other apps, encouraging other users to download, posting to social networks, etc.
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It is incredibly arbitrary to say that a crypto company can not give away crypto for signups, but any random game of the week can give away VBux or whatever other wacky virutal currency they decide to invent, or that defi companies can give away real currency sign up bonuses.
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It is incredibly arbitrary to say that a crypto company can not give away crypto for signups, but any random game of the week can give away VBux or whatever other wacky virutal currency they decide to invent, or that defi companies can give away real currency sign up bonuses.
That is untrue.
Apple doesn't allow random game of the week or defi companies to offer *ANY* form of compensation for mass-tweet campaigns, review bombing, or DDoS attacks.
Random game of the week can offer randappbucks to use within the app, and apps can certainly offer sign up bonuses.
Just like this guys crypto app is allowed to do, such as giving away their own crypto for signing up or use within the app such as buying/selling.
Re: What features? (Score:2)
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It's Apple's App Store. Other app stores and platforms are available for anyone who finds the rules too arbitrary, too onerous, or simply doesn't want to work with Apple.
Speaking personally, I think there's a pretty clear difference between a game (which practically no-one is going to download just to earn the game's virtual currency) and a cryptocurrency app (which is *only* being downloaded to earn and spend the app's currency). And it therefore makes sense to me that the bar is higher for the latter than
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Of course, the bigger question is why not just be a web app? Why go through Apple's app store at all? Surely everything can be done online.
As someone who started with man pages and one book on Perl, I'm baffled by the recent demand for access to platforms. The tools are just lying around and they're amazing now. Make it yourself.
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Thanks for the details.
They should add one requirement:
(vi) Conversion between fiat and crypto must be symmetric, i.e. require approximately equal effort from the user when it comes to KYC, discoverability in the app etc.
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Those are really good highlights. Also I don't know the details of antitrust law, but I'm not sure it's an antitrust issue if they're applying the same rules to everyone including themselves? And it's not like Apple is competing in the space, so you can't argue that they're hindering competitors.
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Not sure he understands "antitrust" (Score:5, Insightful)
"Apple so far has not really played nice with crypto, they've actually banned a bunch of features that we would like to have in the app, but they just won't allow it -- so there's potential antitrust issues there," Armstrong said.
Sure, *if* Apple was competing in cryptocurrency, but they're not. Unless they're allowing the same things in other apps, simply prohibiting "features" you want in your app on their platform has nothing to do with antitrust issues. Can you point to competition from Apple or favoritism by Apple toward other similar apps?
Re:Not sure he understands "antitrust" (Score:5, Funny)
Considering crypto currency is based on willfully not understanding really simple things, I'd be totally unsurprised if they don't actually understand what the antitrust laws are, or don't want to understand.
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Considering crypto currency is based on willfully not understanding really simple things, I'd be totally unsurprised if they don't actually understand what the antitrust laws are, or don't want to understand.
That is one of the best and most concise descriptions of the nature of crypto-"currencies" I have seen so far.
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If you regard the space as value transfers, then Apple Pay and crypto are in the same space.
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If you regard the space as value transfers, then Apple Pay and crypto are in the same space.
I can see that, but, even if so, Apple hasn't banned the app, just disallowed "features" the developer wants -- that are probably also disallowed for all other apps... Hardly an antitrust issue.
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Perhaps the bigger problem with that line of thinking is whether or not Apple Pay has a monopoly. According to wiki, it accounts for 5% of card transactions. If you narrow the definition to "contactless mobile payment using a smartphone" then maybe it starts to look more monopolistic.
Indeed, the argument has to hinge on what those "features" are, and if Apple has a monopoly on contactless mobile payments and *if* they are preventing anybody else from implementing a payment app, then I think $COIN has an a
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No you're wrong. It's "all in tents and porpoises" and if you don't like it, you can stick it down your blow hole.
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That might be an issue if cryptocurrency were regulated as a financial transfer system and exchanges were regulated as banks.
I'm guessing that's not what this guy is going for.
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If you regard the space as value transfers, then Apple Pay and crypto are in the same space.
If you widen the definition to that degree, it wouldn't just include Apple Pay and crypto, it would also include every used car salesman, homebuyer, and retail store in existence, among many, many, many others. It's broad to the point of meaninglessness. I was about to suggest that we could have just as easily said, "if you regard the space as anyone on Earth, they are in the same space", but that would actually narrow the scope, given that astronauts trading their food with each other would "compete" with
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Bernie Madoff was in the "value transfer" space.
How is that antitrust? (Score:2)
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Mostly because if you want to develop an app for iOS, you have to kiss Apple's proverbial backside if you ever expect to run the app outside of the development environment. Sideloading on iOS is a huge hassle [reddit.com].
I find it really difficult to defend a cryptocurrency exchange, but they've got a point. Until the government gets off their ass and regulates this cryptocurrency crap, like it or not, it's legal. The owner of the phone should have final say over whether or not they want to trust Coinbase, not Apple
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Mostly because if you want to develop an app for iOS, you have to kiss Apple's proverbial backside if you ever expect to run the app outside of the development environment. Sideloading on iOS is a huge hassle [reddit.com].
I find it really difficult to defend a cryptocurrency exchange, but they've got a point. Until the government gets off their ass and regulates this cryptocurrency crap, like it or not, it's legal. The owner of the phone should have final say over whether or not they want to trust Coinbase, not Apple.
Their App Store; their Rules.
Don't like it? Sell your iPhone and get an Android phone. Afterall, there are at least a half-dozen OEMs, comprising well-over half the Market.
It really is that simple.
Simple as that.
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Don't like it? Sell your iPhone and get an Android phone. Afterall, there are at least a half-dozen OEMs, comprising well-over half the Market.
It doesn't strike you as a problem that Google controls such a significant marketshare, and Apple's choice not to offer a competitive feature renders Android as the only option?
There's a similar situation with broadband providers in my neighborhood. Technically, we have AT&T and Spectrum. AT&T no longer allows new accounts to sign up, effectively granting Spectrum a de facto monopoly position. It does seem odd to have to a force a company to provide competition in spite of themselves, but anti-co
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Don't like it? Sell your iPhone and get an Android phone. Afterall, there are at least a half-dozen OEMs, comprising well-over half the Market.
It doesn't strike you as a problem that Google controls such a significant marketshare, and Apple's choice not to offer a competitive feature renders Android as the only option?
There's a similar situation with broadband providers in my neighborhood. Technically, we have AT&T and Spectrum. AT&T no longer allows new accounts to sign up, effectively granting Spectrum a de facto monopoly position. It does seem odd to have to a force a company to provide competition in spite of themselves, but anti-competitive behavior takes many forms.
No.
I like my iPhone's Ecosystem JUST the way it is.
And BTW, AT&T and Spectrum own my section of the city, too. But my other choice would be CommieCast (but I'd have to move to another part of town), but they are even worse.
I could put up a Dish; but, no thanks.
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Their App Store; their Rules.
[...]
It really is that simple.
Simple as that.
It really, really isn't. That's literally what antitrust law is about. You literally don't have to have a monopoly over all examples of items in a class to be considered to have a type of monopoly under US antitrust law, or for it to be in the public's interest to regulate you.
People who think laws are simple don't know shit about laws.
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Their App Store; their Rules.
[...]
It really is that simple.
Simple as that.
It really, really isn't. That's literally what antitrust law is about. You literally don't have to have a monopoly over all examples of items in a class to be considered to have a type of monopoly under US antitrust law, or for it to be in the public's interest to regulate you.
People who think laws are simple don't know shit about laws.
So, explain it to us dumb hoomons how Antitrust law applies to Apple's App Store, or especially their policy regarding something as arguably sketchy as Cryptocurrency, as in this latest bullshit allegation. Since the former has already been tested in a U.S. Court (spoiler alert: Apple was found not to have violated Antitrust Law nor engaging Anticompetitive Practices under 9 of 10 allegations).
I can't pay for my groceries with Crypto, either. Do I have a case against Walmart? Of course not.
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Apple was found not to have violated Antitrust Law nor engaging Anticompetitive Practices under 9 of 10 allegations).
Yes, that's the real problem here. Since virtually all congresscreeps are corporate whores, the government isn't going to do anything about antitrust unless the players refuse to play along with their evil schemes, like PRISM (which Apple is a proud member of.) Kind of like how Microsoft didn't get busted for antitrust, and then they made Windows into the worst spyware ever made. As long as you're part of the panopticon you can apparently do whatever you want.
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Apple was found not to have violated Antitrust Law nor engaging Anticompetitive Practices under 9 of 10 allegations).
Yes, that's the real problem here. Since virtually all congresscreeps are corporate whores, the government isn't going to do anything about antitrust unless the players refuse to play along with their evil schemes, like PRISM (which Apple is a proud member of.) Kind of like how Microsoft didn't get busted for antitrust, and then they made Windows into the worst spyware ever made. As long as you're part of the panopticon you can apparently do whatever you want.
When did Apple ever claim to be "A proud member of PRISM"? (And an undated, handwritten "Apple" scribbled on something doesn't count).
It was a COURT, not Congress, that found that Epic's bullshit allegations were just that, so what's your point, Hater?
Intelligent discourse is impossible. You don't talk; you jibber.
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When did Apple ever claim to be "A proud member of PRISM"?
When they decided it was more important to keep making money than to blow the whistle. Just like all the other members. They're all traitors. Literally.
It was a COURT, not Congress, that found that Epic's bullshit allegations were just that, so what's your point
To be fair, it's not just congress, the antitrust chief was nominated by Biden. The usual democrapic congresscreeps publicly supported his nomination though.
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When did Apple ever claim to be "A proud member of PRISM"?
When they decided it was more important to keep making money than to blow the whistle. Just like all the other members. They're all traitors. Literally.
It was a COURT, not Congress, that found that Epic's bullshit allegations were just that, so what's your point
To be fair, it's not just congress, the antitrust chief was nominated by Biden. The usual democrapic congresscreeps publicly supported his nomination though.
Jibber.
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Whatever, noob. Only congress can fix this problem with effective legislation. They have no interest in producing any.
Anti-scam policies (Score:2)
I'm so sorry the anti-scam and consumer protection rules are hampering your digital tulip roadmap and your ability to make money.
Oh, wait - I'm not. There are things I really don't like about the app store, but this complaint makes up for a bit of it. I'm guessing this snake oil peddler would be against e.g gmail's spam filters as well, for the same reason
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As a historical note, I believe claims of "anti-trust", "anti-constitution", "violates free speech", etc. were made once SPAM filters were about to become mainstream.
Criminals and the criminally-minded trying to protect their scam...
TINLC (Score:3)
Remember when spamblocking was the fault of the lumber cartel trying to force people to keep sending paper mail?
Yes, "need to build" and "have to be" (Score:2)
Armstrong ... discussed Apple’s influence and floated the idea that smartphones may soon need to build crypto-specific hardware features. “There’s going to have to be crypto-compatible phones that I think could actually become quite popular in the future,” he said.
(*sigh*) [rolls eyes]
Join the line... (Score:2)
I think the Nigerian Prince Beneficiaries have already filed an antitrust suit against Apple for blocking some of their emails.
p.s. don't forget to spend all of your money on Bitcoin. All of it! Now!
What a big baby (Score:1)
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Antitrust? (Score:2)
What are apply stopping them doing that they do themselves?
The only thing I can think of is NFC features that Apple pay uses that aren't part of the NFC API
Does this guy want to make a cryptocoin physical payment app?
Fraud (Score:2)
TIFTFY (Score:2)
"Apple so far has not really given us everything we want, bruh. They've actually banned a bunch of money laundering & tax evasion features that we would like to have in the app. They just won't allow it, bruh -- so we're gonna pretend there's potential antitrust issues there, bruh." Armstrong said.
There. I fixed that for you.
what about the other laws financial institutions (Score:2)
what about the other laws that financial institutions must comply with that crypto does not??
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Starting with needing a licence to operate. I guess he would not be too keen on that...
Well (Score:2)
ApplePay or else (Score:2)
AAPL have neutralized the whole “digital cash” phenom with its Privacy technology. And Apple’s privacy indeed affords what it claims.
Its digital cash + privacy freedom that crypto cannot match. Stupid humans can’t tell the difference between credit card transaction processing in the background for Apple’s privacy technology. Its that good that AAPL are lessen than a decade to ubiquity worldwide.
Crypto doesn’t have a response that can match or better ApplePay.
So Surprised (Score:1)