Censorship, Surveillance and Profits: A Hard Bargain for Apple in China (nytimes.com) 79
Apple has compromised on data security to placate Chinese authorities, the New York Times reported Monday, citing internal company documents and interviews with current and former Apple employees and security experts. An excerpt from the story: At the data center in Guiyang, which Apple hoped would be completed by next month, and another in the Inner Mongolia region, Apple has largely ceded control to the Chinese government. Chinese state employees physically manage the computers. Apple abandoned the encryption technology it used elsewhere after China would not allow it. And the digital keys that unlock information on those computers are stored in the data centers they're meant to secure.
[...] In China, Apple has ceded legal ownership of its customers' data to Guizhou-Cloud Big Data, or GCBD, a company owned by the government of Guizhou Province, whose capital is Guiyang. Apple recently required its Chinese customers to accept new iCloud terms and conditions that list GCBD as the service provider and Apple as "an additional party." Apple told customers the change was to "improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations."
The terms and conditions included a new provision that does not appear in other countries: "Apple and GCBD will have access to all data that you store on this service" and can share that data "between each other under applicable law." Under the new setup, Chinese authorities ask GCBD -- not Apple -- for Apple customers' data, Apple said. Apple believes that gives it a legal shield from American law, according to a person who helped create the arrangement. GCBD declined to answer questions about its Apple partnership. Matthew Green, who teaches cryptography at Johns Hopkins, commented on Times' story: "Apple asked a lot of people to back them against the FBI in 2015. They used every tool in the legal arsenal to prevent the US from gaining access to their phones. Do they think anyone is going to give them the benefit of the doubt now?"
[...] In China, Apple has ceded legal ownership of its customers' data to Guizhou-Cloud Big Data, or GCBD, a company owned by the government of Guizhou Province, whose capital is Guiyang. Apple recently required its Chinese customers to accept new iCloud terms and conditions that list GCBD as the service provider and Apple as "an additional party." Apple told customers the change was to "improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations."
The terms and conditions included a new provision that does not appear in other countries: "Apple and GCBD will have access to all data that you store on this service" and can share that data "between each other under applicable law." Under the new setup, Chinese authorities ask GCBD -- not Apple -- for Apple customers' data, Apple said. Apple believes that gives it a legal shield from American law, according to a person who helped create the arrangement. GCBD declined to answer questions about its Apple partnership. Matthew Green, who teaches cryptography at Johns Hopkins, commented on Times' story: "Apple asked a lot of people to back them against the FBI in 2015. They used every tool in the legal arsenal to prevent the US from gaining access to their phones. Do they think anyone is going to give them the benefit of the doubt now?"
What else did you expect? (Score:5, Insightful)
And do you expect the Chinese to not keep up the pressure on Apple to expand the scope of their spying?
If you want chips made here, it'd be a shame...
Re:What else did you expect? (Score:4, Insightful)
Makes Apple a national security risk for government contracts. Guess we'll have to bar them as well as Huawei.
How can you guarantee internal isolation? That the rot won't or hasn't spread?
Re: What else did you expect? (Score:1)
Oh, you mean the *US* government. I thought you were talking about the Chinese government for a moment.
Re: What else did you expect? (Score:1)
Congratulations Comrade ! Your post has earned you five social credit points and fifty cents has been deposited into your bank account.
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The problem is it puts Apple (and other companies who manufacture anything at all) in China in a pinch.
Like look at what happened with ARM, if you partner with a Chinese company, they will turn around and steal the company, patents, software and all from underneath you. This has happened with most partnerships in China. If you don't partner, you don't do business in China period. It's a lose-lose situation unless you opt not to do any business in China at all.
And before I villainize mainland China here, oth
Re:What else did you expect? (Score:5, Insightful)
We expect them to take a leaf from Google's book and simply not operate in China. Google could make a lot of money in China, but they decided that they would not because of the censorship and monitoring requrements.
They've Got No Hand (Score:5, Insightful)
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You're not a fan of the iPhone 12 "Forced Labour Edition"?
I wonder if the Uighur Muslims have iPhones?
Re:They've Got No Hand (Score:4, Insightful)
Where would Apple be today if you guys held anybody else including Apple accountable over it?
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Where would Apple be today if you guys held anybody else including Apple accountable over it?
Speak for yourself. I have never in my life given Apple money. I've never owned so much as an Apple ][. Never owned any kind of Mac, never owned an iPod, never owned an iPhone, never owned an iPad. I have done everything possible to express my dislike of their business practices.
It made fuck all difference, didn't it. Accountability!
Foxconn makes parts for Android phones, too.... (Score:3)
I have done everything possible to express my dislike of their business practices.
You bought a bunch of stuff from other companies without even looking up their business practices.
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You bought a bunch of stuff from other companies without even looking up their business practices.
The only "bunch" of stuff I've bought from any company is from LEGO, and their business practices win awards. They're legendary. My car came from Canada, my tablet came from South Korea, not China. I don't own a smartphone. I am familiar in general and in detail with the business practices of the great majority of the companies whose products I buy.
Got any other unwarranted assumptions?
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Your entire life has 'Made in China' stamped on it: TV, phone, computer, home appliances, car, clothes, shoes.
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Your entire life has 'Made in China' stamped on it: TV, phone, computer, home appliances, car, clothes, shoes.
You didn't read. I have no cellular phone. My TV came from Vietnam. My computer parts came from, variously, the US, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia, and Vietnam. My home appliances came from the US and South Korea. My hand tools came from Mexico. My clothes mostly came from Malaysia and Indonesia. So did yours.
Your complaint is hopelessly outdated. Global supply chains have changed drastically over the last 30 years. Chinese labor is far too expensive to manufacture clothes and shoes anymore, and South Kor
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Speak for yourself. I have never in my life given Apple money. I've never owned so much as an Apple ][. Never owned any kind of Mac, never owned an iPod, never owned an iPhone, never owned an iPad. I have done everything possible to express my dislike of their business practices.
It made fuck all difference, didn't it. Accountability!
Maybe you haven't given money to Apple directly through the purchase of their products and services, but how about indirectly?
Have you ever purchased anything from IBM, Nokia, or another company that licenses patents from Apple [cultofmac.com]? Have you purchased anything from a company that licenses one of the many cellular standards-essential patents [fool.com] that Apple acquired after buying Intel's smartphone modem business?
If so, you have given/are giving money to Apple.
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Manufacturing in India isn't so great either, there is plenty of exploitation going on there.
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Modi has been headed in that direction for a long time too. His handling of COVID doesn't inspire confidence either.
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Where would Apple be today without China's cheap/slave labor?
When you're a trillion-dollar company, the question becomes irrelevant.
They will do whatever they want, wherever they want. At damn near any premium cost. And can afford to do so for the next quarter century at a loss.
China, or a lack of, isn't exactly a threat to their continued existence.
Re: They've Got No Hand (Score:2)
Then, why are they complying?
Re: They've Got No Hand (Score:2)
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Then, why are they complying?
Simple. They want to be a multi trillion dollar company.
Greed has lifted humanity up to amazing heights, but will ultimately remain the disease that creates our downfall.
Apple can certainly afford to make many choices. They went for the profitable one. Go figure.
Problem? (Score:2)
Apple did everything they legally could in the San Bernardino case to preserve privacy and they are still doing that. Who expected the situation to be the same in China?
Re: Problem? (Score:4, Informative)
Honest question:
For people living in a dictatorship, and scared of being called out/imprisoned- how would you know if they were NOT happy? Assuming that is true for China, If people were happy, they'd appear happy. If people were scared, they might also appear happy.
Everybody has a price- (Score:3)
Even Apple.
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Even Apple.
Uh, especially Apple.
Only a fool believes Apple gives any shits about consumer protections if it starts affecting their bottom line.
Pot calls kettle black (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple sold its soul to keep the Chinese market. All the data in China now belongs to the Chinese government and Apple has ceded complete control.
It just shows that money rules Apple.
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It just shows that money rules Apple.
Or perhaps it shows what we should expect.
Apple is one of the most popular and publically traded companies in the world. Who exactly do you think Apple is answering to when not turning their back on one of the largest markets on the planet?
As a shareholder, would you accept a 30% drop in stock price had they chosen to tell China to piss off over their anti-privacy stance?
The Board certainly wouldn't.
Partners with the CCP (Score:4, Insightful)
Being partners with the Communist Party is like being partners with Tony Soprano.
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So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
The outrage here cracks me up. Here are the choices when you want to sell a product in a country.
First, you follow all applicable laws when you sell that product. This lets you sell the product in their country, the people of the country get to use your product with whatever limitations that entails to privacy or any other dimension. You get the profits from selling that product.
Second, you don't sell the product. You don't get the profits.
Some of you nitwits seem to think there is a third option, something like "Be really tough and tell China you won't take it, no you just won't take it anymore!". That's option two, you don't sell in China.
If you're worried about the Chinese people then Apple not selling their products doesn't help the Chinese people. I fucking loathe Apple and wish they would go bankrupt and that their headquarters would be razed and the land it stood on salted, but in this case they aren't doing anything wrong.
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The outrage here is like this. When you get a clearance, they're really more interested in if you feel like you have to hide some part of your life. That's a security risk, because you're vulnerable to blackmail. If you don't care about your BDSM fetish, and don't care that everyone knows it, you won't be getting blackmailed for your BDSM fetish, so it's fine.
Now, if you're ashamed of it, then you're a security risk. Apple has showed a willingness to hide what they're doing in serving a foreign power, China
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If you're worried about the Chinese people then Apple not selling their products doesn't help the Chinese people
How does selling Apple products in a country help its people??? It is a fucking iPhone. And yeah, Apple is using SLAVE LABOR to build their products. They ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Another fake "Progressive". Slashdot makes me sick. RigthSaidFred99: you aren't a progressive. You are a CORPORATIST. So fucking stop pretending.
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I never said Apple selling its products helps its people. I said not selling it doesn't help them. They are two different things.
And fuck no, I'm not progressive. I'm a gun toting right wing democrat, or a liberal Republican, somewhere in that arena.
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Manufacturing products in China actively harms the slaves there.
That's why you stop. To stop positively harming them.
Using slave labor is not being neutral to the slaves.
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Using slave labor is not being neutral to the slaves.
What exactly is your moral and ethical dilemma here? What's your end goal with this?
Participating in slave labor, is bad. Standing idly by in neutral while not participating and doing nothing about the problem, meets what long-term goal exactly?
You act as if Apple pulling out of China, would end slave labor. There's another half dozen companies likely waiting in line to take their place. If you want to end the practice of slave labor, the fucking END IT. Don't pretend that ignoring or not participating
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How does selling Apple products in a country help its people???
Apple isn't perfect, but they do more to protect privacy in China than Xiaomi, Huawei, etc.
I use an Android burner phone when I am in China, but if I lived there permanently, I would definitely use an iPhone.
And yeah, Apple is using SLAVE LABOR to build their products.
Apple products are not built with slave labor.
Re: So what? (Score:1)
> Apple is using SLAVE LABOR to build their products
Bollocks.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Interesting)
You live in a tiny, simple little world. There are all kinds of sub-options, and they are meaningfully different in their effects.
You can follow their rules and sell in their country, and go above and beyond what they require. Make sure to keep the authorities Super Happy :-). Talk all the time about how great the government is. Which is probably not what Apple is doing, but we can't be sure.
You can follow their rules and sell in their country, but make sure it has a cost for them, like for example by talking really loudly about what's going on, so that they lose prestige and their citizens maybe start wondering. You can push back with whatever political means are available to you. Which, by the way, is what Apple often does in the US. It has an effect even in China; it's just harder and a bit riskier. Apple may even be trying to exact a behind the scenes political cost... or may not. It matters.
You can follow their rules and sell in their country, but drag your feet, do the absolute minimum, constantly come out with new features that aren't forbidden yet but make trouble for what the government really wants to do, etc. Apple also sometimes does this in the US, and may do it in China too for all we know. Again, this can matter.
You can quietly stop selling in their country and not say why.
You can not sell in their country, and make a huge amount of noise about the reasons why. And that in itself may help their people, at least more than if you stop selling there and say nothing.
You can not sell in their country, but do absolutely nothing to discourage your product being smuggled in. By others, of course. All very aboveboard. Not suggesting you actually help. But it's not your problem if people resell your product, you know.
By the way, I've been around long enough to have heard a lot of rationalizing corporate chatter about why it was good to open up trade with China, back when it was really restricted. Back when "they" really needed "us" more than "we" needed "them". I heard people literally say the words "We've got them mainlining capitalism". There was this idea that the Magic of the Free Market would liberalize the Chinese government and that some kind of pixie dust would extend that liberalization beyond trade and economics. So hey, there was no need to demand concrete, non-economic liberalization in return; that would just insult their feels.
Well, it didn't work. What it did do was to give massive economic power (and therefore massive miltary power) to a repressive dictatorship, and put a lot of people, companies, and governments into a place where it would be really hard to stop dealing with China. So if you have to live in your little two-choice world, maybe the right choice is in fact sometimes to tell them to fuck off?
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See, now this is a good post. Why you posting anon?
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If you're worried about the Chinese people then Apple not selling their products doesn't help the Chinese people.
I think we've sort of proved that selling their products isn't helping the Chinese people either. Not sure how you missed that.
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Here's what you said: "First, you follow all applicable laws when you sell that product."
Your implicit assumption is that if an American corporation decides not to sell its merchandise in China, it won't face legal penalties for failing to abide by America's corporate laws concerning its responsibility to maximize shareholder profits.
Wake the fuck up, dumbass.
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Have you a citation for a law that says a company has to maximize profits?
As far as I know, they have to maximize the companies value, which can include not maximizing profits but instead maximizing PR. Apple would have a good argument that by loudly refusing to sell in China under those rules is better for the company long term, things like showing they're dedicated to all their customers privacy.
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would of apple helped the Nazis with the jews? (Score:2)
would of apple helped the Nazis with the jews?
Right now they will not help the FBI but if China wanted an phone unlocked???
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Well, IBM certainly did, so it's hardly out of the question.
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Most international businesses did, with good results. I don't believe there was one western company that was prosecuted for working with Germany and America was quite willing to stay out of the war as it was better for business. Remember, it was Germany that declared war on America, not America declaring war on Germany (or Italy, who declared war before Germany did).
Poor Apple (Score:2)
So broke they have to deal with the nasty gov'ts worldwide to have two pennies to scrape together.
Have pity on them. /s in case it wasn't screamingly obvious.
Corporations don't give a fuck about people (Score:1)
Incompatible (Score:1)
Maybe their market isn't worth the cost of entry. (Score:3)
Ethics transcend borders. If something is unethical in the US, it's unethical in China. If Chinese law demands you do something unethical, either abandon any pretense of an ethos or abandon the Chinese market. You can't have it both ways.
Apple claims to have values. Apple claims to be ethical. If they want those claims to be true, they must stop this.
APPLE: Where they do not speak English (Score:2)