Apple Says iMessage on Android 'Will Hurt Us More Than Help Us' (theverge.com) 231
Apple knows that iMessage's blue bubbles are a big barrier to people switching to Android, which is why the service has never appeared on Google's mobile operating system. From a report: That's according to depositions and emails from Apple employees, including some high-ranking executives, revealed in a court filing from Epic Games as part of its legal dispute with the iPhone manufacturer. Epic argues that Apple consciously tries to lock customers into its ecosystem of devices, and that iMessage is one of the key services helping it to do so. It cites comments made by Apple's senior vice president of Internet Software and Services Eddie Cue, senior vice president of software engineering Craig Federighi, and Apple Fellow Phil Schiller to support its argument.
"The #1 most difficult [reason] to leave the Apple universe app is iMessage ... iMessage amounts to serious lock-in," was how one unnamed former Apple employee put it in an email in 2016, prompting Schiller to respond that, "moving iMessage to Android will hurt us more than help us, this email illustrates why." "iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove [an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones," was Federighi's concern according to the Epic filing. Although workarounds to using iMessage on Android have emerged over the years, none have been particularly convenient or reliable.
"The #1 most difficult [reason] to leave the Apple universe app is iMessage ... iMessage amounts to serious lock-in," was how one unnamed former Apple employee put it in an email in 2016, prompting Schiller to respond that, "moving iMessage to Android will hurt us more than help us, this email illustrates why." "iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove [an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones," was Federighi's concern according to the Epic filing. Although workarounds to using iMessage on Android have emerged over the years, none have been particularly convenient or reliable.
Hard to believe (Score:5, Insightful)
Any takers here in Slashdot? Anyone that keeps his iPhone just because iMessage? I have a hard time believing it. I use iMessage with some contacts, but most are on WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram, which works on Android just the same.
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Re: Hard to believe (Score:2, Insightful)
I also wish there was a way to change the default call type to FaceTime audio if it is a
Re: Hard to believe (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually I just want the fcc to say all bidirectional communication systems with over 1 million users must interoperate and work with other systems of similar design. Based on industry standards so third parties may join in(with various patent and licensing fees where needed) (Or all text message systems work together) all email, all person to person video calling, all video conferencing systems etc. (So face time ,face book messenger and google dou, work together but ms teams, meet etc dont have to connect to facetime, but do have to work together themselves so no facetime to teams but google meet to teams and zoom)
I remember using dial up icq video call in 2000. Better resolution but the same issues of not working with other similar services still don't connect to each other.
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My kids' school require iPads from K-8. If I want to reliably text my kids, I have to have an iMessage capable device. My kids are not going to use WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram because their friends all have iPads and they use iMessage.
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is this apple misinformation you read somewhere?
Re:Hard to believe (Score:4, Informative)
iPhone != iPad.
iPhones can receive SMS, because they have phone numbers and cellular radios. iPads do not, just the same as an Android tablet cannot receive SMS messages without some backend trickery (which is what iMessage does).
So no, it's not "apple misinformation" - it's just that you didn't read what they wrote, or had an incomplete understanding of what is actually happening.
Re:Hard to believe (Score:5, Interesting)
My kids are going to use iMessage because their friends all use iMessage, because the school requires iPads. I could install something else, but they won't use it because all their other communication is in this other app. So I can either spend my time complaining that they never see texts, or I can get an iMessage enabled device.
Note the quote: "My kids are not going to use WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram because their friends all have iPads and they use iMessage." from my original reply.
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Also, to follow up: SMS is insecure, and getting the messages to behave reliably is not all the easy -- some things show up as attachments or weird things that won't open. I have friends with Android devices (and I do as well for testing) and it isn't going to work for dealing with a 10yo.
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If your goal is to send embedded pictures or other media, then texting isn't what you need. It's email. In my humble opinion.
Convincing people they need iMessage was Satan's greatest triumph of the early 2010s.
Re: Hard to believe (Score:2)
I really want this cartoon now. Screw tape Letters: iMessager. Something just seems funny about a bunch of nerdy demons trying to figure out how to screw society. We could easily make it a series with Oracle and other tech giants included in different episodes. Easily a nice miniseries, so who wants to take my money? Yeah yeah, I know Dilbert already spoofed this a bit but we need to go deeper.
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"...and it isn't going to work for dealing with a 10yo"
And now complete FUD. What does a 10yo require that SMS cannot satisfy? Do they handle nuclear codes? SMS "behaves reliably", you're just an a-hole with a narrative.
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Is the "standard built in messaging app" an SMS messaging app or an Internet text messaging app?
iMessage doesn't use the SMS system to send/receive texts between iMessage users but can still accept SMS texts from non-iMessage users. If you want to avoid using SMS and just text via Internet connections then you need both parties to use compatible messaging apps.
Try texting your friends on an iPad or iPhone that doesn't have a SIM card and see if it still works.
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Which is why schools should never lock themselves (and parents) into the Apple ecosystem.
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It is either that or lock themselves (and parents) into a Google, Facebook or Microsoft ecosystem. The problem is that there is no single messaging protocol that works everywhere (including SMS - as some people have pointed out elsewhere in this discussion, a use case is to use an iPad rather than an iPhone). Or if it does, it is just controlled by another company. You have to make some choice (or maybe 2 or 3, but most people don't want to have N different programs that do much the same thing).
Of course, e
Re:Hard to believe (Score:5, Insightful)
XMPP was, for a brief time, the desired universally usable protocol. That's why Google wanted it dead.
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A handful of giant tech companies, lock-in and data mining are the reasons we can't have anything nice anymore.
Re: Hard to believe (Score:2)
I would consider Asus' netbooks an attempt to break the lock-in. However, it failed hard and I am pretty sure the whole line was canned in recent years. Personally, if it would of gotten more support I think we would now have a comparable pad or tablet pc that utilized a Linux distro. But the giants won and a good manufacturer deemed it a dead market.
Re: Hard to believe (Score:2)
Or apple could just support RCS.
Re:Hard to believe (Score:5, Insightful)
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When all your friends have iPhones, groups texts get kind of nasty when you add an android to the mix, and I don't want to be the one who causes the green bubbles).
Either you are living under a rock and don't have many friends, or this is unlikely.
Apple has about 15% market share worldwide. Chances are if you have just 10 friends, not all of them will use Apple. This is still true even if you have friends in a country where Apple has a high market share (say 50%). If you have 20 friends, chances that all of them will be on Apple are close to 0.
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Ah, the dangers of inference from summary statistics.
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People's social circles are based on things like demographics and shared interests, not marketshare. In my social circle, everyone but one person is on Android and he's the one who earns the least. He's also against tracking, so because of that reason he hates Apple but has both a Google and a Facebook account. /shrugs #DefiesLogic
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I only have to blame myself for choosing iMessage which 99% of my contacts use. Right. So clearly, you don't seem to understand that I don't care and on top of that, from my point of view, that particular friend is the problem.
Combine that with the fact that most alternatives are either controlled by Russia, China, Google or Facebook, and could be bought by any of them in the future, and you'll excuse me if I stick with Apple on this one.
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Ah, that makes so much sense now. Let's tie ALL technology choices to sexual orientation! /s
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I despise Apple users so much when I read something like:
I don't want to be the one who causes the green bubbles
You know what is worst than being the one who causes the green bubble? Being one of the sheep who pushes vendor lock-in to your relatives, so that they also feel the shame of "causing the green bubbles".
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Its odd because green is an objectively better color.
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If Google hadn't killed XMPP, people would at least have had the chance to switch to something else. So while you may hate vendor lock-in, you should hate Google more for helping make Apple's lock-in even stronger.
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Re:Hard to believe (Score:5, Interesting)
iMessage is not a reason for me to stay on an iPhone, as evidenced by the OnePlus 7 Pro I carry. I will, however, say that iMessage is a constant pain in my ass whenever my not-so-tech-literate family members try to send me a message and their phones auto-select sending to my AppleID linked email address instead of my phone number, and I end up getting messages as text file email attachments that I can't reply to.
I had to tell all my relatives to delete that email address from my contact card in their phones in order to be able to get messages from them. They created a great messaging system if you stay 100% in their ecosystem, but as soon as you dip a toe outside, it's horribly broken and feels like punishment for having the audacity to buy hardware that doesn't have fuck-ugly notches in the screen.
Re:Hard to believe (Score:4, Interesting)
I bought my iPhone just because of iMessage. The only reason I upgraded from my dumb phone was because texting was so bad, and the people I wanted to text had iPhones and used iMessage, so that's what I went with.
Also, I would lean away from something that allows FB (WhatsApp) or Russia (Telegram) access to any device of mine.
Re: Hard to believe (Score:3)
Have you tried WeChat? It's available on iPhone.
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Re:Hard to believe (Score:5, Insightful)
I would say Facetime, is a bigger barrier for someone who wants to switch from Apple to Android than iMessage. Being that normal SMS texts do the job, and most carriers are finally not charging us an arm and a leg for them.
Facetime is an Apple product that a lot of people use, and if you are on Android, you will have to be "That Guy" who has to try to ask everyone else to use something different.
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I've carried an iPhone for 2 years (thanks, employer ) as well as an Android for at least 10. I've NEVER needed FaceTime or been asked to use it by any of my poor benighted Apple addicted friends or family.
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> who has to try to ask everyone else to use something different.
The echoes must be deafening in that chamber, with Apple having less than 20% market share.
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The only reason Apple is still around is their hardware. It is not really good, but it is shiny and easily turned into a fetish. If they ever lose that, they are history.
As to iMessage: What is that?
My biggest reason for resorting to plaintext SMS (Score:2)
The fact that Apple does not allow you to change the default texing app means that most of my iPhone-using friends/family wont install Signal because it is annoying to have to juggle multiple texting apps and remember who is on which. And the fact that I can't install iMessage (or a compatible app) on Android means that I can't use the encrypted texting service they already have. The combination of these two policies means that nearly all my communication between iPhone and Android users is unencrypted.
It i
Re:Hard to believe (Score:5, Insightful)
Any takers here in Slashdot? Anyone that keeps his iPhone just because iMessage? I have a hard time believing it. I use iMessage with some contacts, but most are on WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram, which works on Android just the same.
I use all of them, but the latter provides access to users on most any mobile platform. I certainly don't keep to iPhone because of iMessage, but because I trust Apple a bit more than Google when it comes to my privacy. Correction, I assume Google is no better than Facebook when it comes to abusing my privacy.
While a walled garden is not cool, it certainly helps provide a sense of comfort and the feeling that there has been some validation on what enters the app store. Given Epic's screw up with their store on Android, I really I am not sure I would trust them either.
Animated sparkles and unicorn stickers locks us in (Score:2)
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You have my pity, not only for using Apple but for using any swipe-direction-based dating solution.
Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
As a longtime Android user, I don't understand what about iMessage is so special that it would lock people in. Isn't it just texting?
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absolutely nothing special about it IMO
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Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
It is just texting. There's nothing special about it. (Well, that's not strictly true, it has a bunch of extra features that are at best worthless and at worst actively annoying. That you can't turn off.) That's not what the lock-in is.
When you associate a phone number with your Apple account (which AFAIK happens by default when you set up an iPhone) then everyone who also uses iMessage will automatically switch to sending messages to your phone number using the iMessage service instead of using SMS.
iMessage users cannot choose if they send via SMS or via iMessage for a given user. If someone is "on iMessage" then every iPhone that attempts to send them a text message will instead send it via iMessage. (There's a whole mess of caveats to that statement. iMessage can be turned off globally, switching an iPhone to only use SMS. I think. I don't know if that tells iPhone users who try to contact you to also use SMS. You can also tell iMessage to send an SMS as a "backup" if it can't contact someone via iMessage. This may be less useful than you think, because I'm unclear what happens if, say, someone still has an iPad that has their Apple account logged in, so they are "receiving" iMessages, but just aren't receiving them on their phone.)
So what happens is that someone who wants to move to Android needs to make sure that they unassociate all their contact information from iMessage, or any iPhone user - any at all, not just those they've already communicated with - will attempt to use iMessage and not SMS. (Well, any iPhone user with iMessage enabled, which is basically every iPhone user.) Meaning that the Android phone simply won't receive messages from iPhone users. (Or at least, may receive them late, if the "SMS backup" option is enabled, and it works.)
That's the lock-in. Not because iMessage is incredibly useful - it solved a problem that only really existed in the US where phone plans used to have extremely limited SMS plans - but because it effectively automatically and silently replaces SMS for iPhone users, and disabling it is something you have to know to do while you still have an Apple device.
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So the function of iMessage is essentially to lock users in to using iMessage. Makes sense! :D
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As reported in TFA and the summary.
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It works over wifi.
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As a longtime Android user, I don't understand what about iMessage is so special that it would lock people in. Isn't it just texting?
Yes, but it doesn't use SMS with other iMessage users. So it gives the impression that texting is better on an iPhone.
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Well, it's an included-by-default messaging platform that incorporates many of the things Google has been trying to roll out for years (unsuccessfully) with RCS, except that it works on any Apple device and not just phones. With group messaging isn't fucking horrific like it is with SMS, and uses end-to-end encryption by default. And has support for sending video files that aren't bitcrushed to unrecognizable noise.
Think of it as Signal already being on your device, and a whole lot of other peoples' devic
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Well, Android is using RCS [wikipedia.org] for a couple of years, and my family and me are using the standard android messages application and it works fine, we can see when message is delivered, read, have reactions, etc. it works on wifi/4G but can fall back to SMS if there is no wifi/data.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
Some of these were solved, later, by WhatsApp (but that involves FB and I don't trust their app anywhere), Telegram (but that involves the Russian government), Signal (but that involves getting other people to install it), or things like Discord or Slack.
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or simply solved by the standard android Messages application that is using RCS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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except E2E :-(
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I wouldn't stay on iPhone because of it. But it is nice:
1. It's rich texting. Typing ellipses, read receipts, reactions, animations, etc. Including easy privacy features such as configuring the rich features on a per-contact basis.
2. The client (Messages) integrates SMS and iMessage really nicely. I have my group chats with friends including Android devices and chats with all-iPhone friends all living in one app. If Androids are in the picture, it seamlessly falls back on SMS/MMS. All-iPhone switches you ri
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Back when I was still on Apple hardware for my desktop/laptop the biggest draw was it's integration with macOS. I hate having conversions over "text" message, but a bunch of people I deal with seem to always want to do that (via both iMessage and SMS). With iMessage I could receive both iMessage and SMS messages on all of my devices (without needing any particular one nearby) and switch between them as I want. Typing replies on my desktop or laptop was much easier then doing it on my phone or iPad.
Having
You don't get the animated confetti on Android (Score:3)
As a longtime Android user, I don't understand what about iMessage is so special that it would lock people in. Isn't it just texting?
Well if everyone in the conversation has an Apple device then text messages are in blue bubbles. Sadly when someone with Android is in the mix then the text message are in green bubbles. I've also heard if you send the message "Happy Birthday" to someone on an Android device the device merely shows them the text and doesn't automatically add confetti animations. Its horrendous.
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Then how about *one* simple feature, Apple? (Score:5, Informative)
Ok, Apple, fine - "tell the user what they want", right? Well, then, tell me the one simple feature that I want, that hasn't been implemented in the last 14 iOS releases:
Allow to assign custom colors to contacts for Messages.
Simple, yet apparently totally elusive to the thousand of Apple "engineers" (flummoxed?). I've lost count of how many times I've mistakenly messaged someone else than the intended recipient, because all the bubbles are all the same damn color! (luckily never anything embarrassing - just annoyances)
On a side note: Tim Cook's hypocrisy is on full display, since he claims Apple is all about inclusivity, yet builds exclusivity (read: non-inclusivity) in its products. [gizmodo.com]
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You mean I can't send a text to an Android phone? (Score:3)
But I've been doing that for years. Maybe there is some hidden attribute to iMessage that I've been missing. Do I have a special iPhone that somehow does something that Apple thinks can't be done. I'm serious confused by this. iMessage is just texting.
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You're confusing functionality with platform , may be? What have you been doing for years ?
Whatsapp, Telegram, Signal, Threema, iMessage are all mobile instant messaging over internet services. iMessage is only available on Apple devices, because they never built any apps for Android. Apparently, this is not because of technical limitation but rather to create a "you can't move to Android if you want to use iMessage" situation and disincentivize potential users who might switch to Android.
Note that none of
Aged poorly (Score:3)
There was a time when iMessage was notably better than SMS messaging and non-SMS messaging applications were not well integrated on iPhones. That hasn't been true for ages now though. Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram.. you can use them all just as easily as iMessage now.
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There was a time when iMessage was notably better than SMS messaging...
And today it is an awful, awful lot better than messaging because SMS messaging is easily hacked while iMessage messaging is quite safe.
What exactly does Epic expect? (Score:2)
Does Epic expect some judge to force Apple to port IMessage to Android? Do they somehow think that such a port would convince Apple to allow Epic to implement their own payment system? What Epic fails to grasp is that people use Apple products because they aren't a totally balkanized sh*tshow like Android and Windows is.
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It probably fits into their larger argument that Apple has intentionally constructed a lock-in monopoly that economically hurts other developers, like EPIC. Apple has likely counter argued that EPIC's claim that Apple has a monopoly is false because Android exists with 80% market share to iOS's 20%. Epic is responding that Apple intentionally locks-in users so that they can't switch to Android even if they wanted to. EPIC doesn't care if Apple's iMessages is ported to Android so long as iOS users have acces
Re:What exactly does Epic expect? (Score:5, Insightful)
No. This is to demonstrate that the IOS and Android platforms are not interchangeable, and that Apple makes it difficult (intentionally) to move between them. That sets the stage for saying that there is not one 'smartphone' market, but two distinct markets, both very large. And Apple has a 100% monopoly on retailing apps in the IOS market, which it enforces with technical and contractural means.
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Bingo, this is the very core of Epic's argument of Apple's monopoly.
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That's pretty clever. Thanks for the succinct analysis.
Canâ(TM)t force Apple (Score:2)
Itâ(TM)s like expecting that Microsoft would release all upcoming Bethesda games on Playstation as well.
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They don't want a variant on Android. This is to demostrate that Apple tries to lock people into its platform, preventing users from switching to Android. Thus, the IOS and Android ecosystems should each be treated as seperate markets instead of one big 'smartphone' market.
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The bad-Unicode garbage in this reply is a clear sign you were using an Apple device.
Lot's of iMessage alternatives (Score:2)
Yes, we know that there are lots of iMessage alternatives, many are objectively better and offer better features. The problem is that your mom isn't on Signal. Your friends at Church aren't on WhatsApp. Etc. SMS/MMS is great for basic text communication but it SUCKS for sending photos and videos. I have had such a hard time begging my friends and family to switch to another OS-agnostic messenger system, but the iPhone users won't. iMessages works for them just fine and they don't understand why I won't just
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I mean, you could drop $100-$200 on an iPhone to accommodate them. Unless, for some reason, you want the latest phone.
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The problem is precisely that there are 10,000 of them.
One Android-using friend asks me to install WhatsApp. The next one asks me to install Telegram. The next suggests we use GroupMe.
At some point... I say "nah, let's just stick with SMS."
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Something they're already using works just fine, all their contacts are using it and you're asking them to switch to something else than iMessage means it would require all of them to ask all of their contacts to switch to that same something else, out of dozens of alternatives.
That's like asking someone to stop using Windows/Linux/Mac and all the software they use, switch to Linux/Mac/Windows and search for replacement for every single app they use, as well as learn all new ways of doing things instead of
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Right. That my friend is called "lock-in".
They are absolutely right (Score:2)
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So your argument is because your child -- who is by definition not an adult -- prefers a product, it is a superior choice?
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RCS messaging has those features but it hasn't quite saturated the SMS/MMS market yet, though it is getting there.
How about a compromise? (Score:2)
For the text bubbles from iMessage on Android, instead of blue or green, make them cyan with square corners and add a sad face emoji at the end of each message!
I'm joking of course, except for the cyan bubbles idea.
How about a monthly/yearly fee? (Score:2)
How much of a profit loss would an Android user using the Android version of iMessage be for Apple? Either charge something for the application or make it free and charge a monthly/yearly fee for the service and make the first month free so they can try it.
Apple tried to be open with FaceTime... (Score:2)
Among other things [reddit.com], Apple ran into software patent issued when they tried it.
Color me surprised (Score:3)
Quick show of hands: who's surprised by this?
Of course Apple is going to use services they developed to make it attractive for their users to keep buying iDevices. Of course they're not going to put any effort into making it easy for people to leave the iEcosystem. Of course they're going to create as much vendor lock-in as they can, all the while touting how open and interoperable they are. What sane company would not? We need a deposition to figure this out?
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Huh. My Android devices have been syncing for a while now, and not much effort.
And while it breaks and has to be figured out occasionally, as in non-zero, my Windows PC happily now can text via my phone, pop notifications, show me email coming into my phone, and more I don't bother to use. Apple does not have a lock on features, but those don't sell any more anyways, they have a strong hold on design and attraction.
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There's the killer feature of iMessage right there. WhatsApp does come close. Their handover from phone to desktop only breaks occasionally, usually when the desktop app needs to be updated, and now that they've got voice in the desktop app it's approaching feature parity. Still only works if your phone is on the same wifi network as your computer though. But Apple has had all those features for years.
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Then you haven't used an Android much. I can sync things between different Android devices just by logging into my Google Play account.
Last time I set up a new device it even asked me what I wanted to sync just in case I didn't want every program and setting exactly the same between the two devices (e.g. I wanted the contacts the same but not all the same apps installed).
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Your brief, uninformative anecdote is statistically useless and, thankfully, easily ignored.
You have my pity for being incapable of getting an Android phone to work to your satisfaction.
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I honestly don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I have started zero conversations in this Slashdot story.
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Android devices sync very effectively through a Google account. But I can see how Apple's implementation of sync causes user lock-in.
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Sadly, it's true.
Getting chat services to work properly between my phone and my laptop in the Android universe - Google's "messages for web" solution is pure shit - having to scan a QR code with my phone in order to be able to see my messages on my laptop is fucking garbage, especially since I'm on Google Fi and Google operates their own god damn auth provider - why can't Google's messaging talk to Google's auth provider on Google's own MVNO for messaging on a Google OS?. And I hope you don't want to use i
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I think Apple vs Android users is kinda of a Community type of thing.
Much like how we have Coca-cola towns and Pepsi towns. Where if you go to one town or the other, you find that most of the small businesses stores and restaurants, and vending machine sell mainly either Coke or Pepsi. Then when you go to the next town the shift may be different. It isn't like either town doesn't offer the other, but there is a strong trend in one direction or an other.
They are communities where they are mostly all App