Apple Forced To Add iPhone and MacBook Repairability Scores To Comply With French Law (theverge.com) 88
Apple has added iPhone and MacBook repairability scores to its online store in France to comply with a new French law that came into effect this year. From a report: MacGeneration reports that the rating takes into account features like how easily a device can be disassembled and the availability of repair manuals and spare parts. Links to each product's final score, with details for how they were calculated, are available on this support page. The ratings for Apple's products vary between products and generations. Its iPhone 12 lineup all have scores of six out of 10 for example, while the previous year's iPhone 11s are rated lower at between 4.5 and 4.6. The improvement, according to the detailed scoring assessment, is due to the newer iPhones being easier to dismantle than the previous year's models, and spare parts being cheaper compared to the cost of the phone itself. There's less of a spread between the company's different MacBook models, whose scores range from 5.6 to 7.
False ratings (Score:3, Informative)
The real rating is 0.
Re: False ratings (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: False ratings (Score:2)
Think? Are you sure?
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Ya, pretty sure.
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Re: False ratings (Score:3)
And don't even try to change parts anyway since Apple even have serial number match of the components in the phone.
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Just randomly clicking into half a dozen products, I see them having a pretty consistent "overall score" of between 6 and 7, out of 10.
That doesn't SEEM to be that bad of a score? (and I must admit it surprises me a bit)
Though I see quite a few 10's that are offsetting some 1's and 3's. They're getting high scores for things like availability of (free) technical support. This clearly isn't exclusively about "repairability",
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Have a look at one of the ratings: https://support.apple.com/cont... [apple.com]
That's the iPhone 12. You can see that it scores only 5.0 out of 20 for accessibility and needed tools to get into the damn thing.
What seems to have saved them from a dismally low score is the availability of software updates and the ability to reset the phone to factory state before selling/donating it. They get 20/20 for that... Which seems a bit high, given that the software updates do tend to make the phone extremely slow over time, but
They definitely paid someone off to get that ratin (Score:1)
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You wouldn't buy a video game that got 50% ratings in reviews
Oh that's just nonsense.
why would you buy a phone that did?
For the same reason people buy a video game that did.
Because they're a fan of the series.
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Actually I would.
Because it makes clear it i snot "mainstream", just like with a cinema movie.
If it gets a really high rating you can bet it is utter shit.
Re: They definitely paid someone off to get that r (Score:2)
No, that's what you get for a hardened glass pane.
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Nuclear submarines are highly repairable. Maybe a 10. They are designed to run self sufficient for months at a time. Ok, some repairs do require a dry dock, so we'll give it a 9.
Zero may be closer to paper plates, sporks, and super-gluing your finger to your eyelid.
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Super gluing your finger to your eyelid sounds kind of like buying an Apple Iphone.
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Nuclear submarines are highly repairable. Maybe a 10. They are designed to run self sufficient for months at a time. Ok, some repairs do require a dry dock, so we'll give it a 9.
Generally only if you go bump in the night.
Zero may be closer to paper plates, sporks, and super-gluing your finger to your eyelid.
Add in Gorilla Gluing your hair...
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1-2 would be a Lenovo tablet. All recent ones have an iFixit of "cannot be repaired".
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Seriously what's a 1-2, a nuclear submarine?
That is easier to repair, trust me...
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Seriously what's a 1-2, a nuclear submarine?
The American Political Industrial Complex.
* mic drop *
Building your devices with GLUE (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Building your devices with GLUE (Score:5, Insightful)
There's glue and then there's sealant. You need a good sealant.
With good design, there's no reason new sealant can't be applied to retain the rating after a repair.
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Agreed. Years and years ago I bought a Sony Waterproof Walkman. I needed it repairs after a nasty drop. They resealed it and tested it by dropping it in water and making sure no air bubbles surfaced. It worked perfect, even in a steam room and sauna, for years after that.
This was the 1990's. They're saying waterproof technology hasn't improved since then?
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Portable and mobile technology technology is hard. Much more difficult than Apples designers are capable of. They tried a replaceable battery compartment on the Newton. Ask anybody who collects and maintains Newton PDAs. The battery compartment is invariably broken. Apple really hasn't tried that since.
Look at the design of replaceable battery compartments on Samsung or Motorola phones from the period when they were doing more of those designs: it's tight mechanical design. The lazy thing to do is just gl
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Can confirm. I have designed devices that greatly exceed IP68. 5+ years underwater, no issues and no glue.
A rubber o-ring was all that was needed.
Re: Building your devices with GLUE (Score:3)
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IP68 appears to be one of the new terms to brandish around, like SCSI, RISC, Altivec, etc. Apple thrives by fostering a culture of semi tech-literate consumerism around their product lines.
To real nerds it's sort of gross and repellant.
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Water and dust resistance are useful to everyone. They are features you use literally all the time. Without them, water and dust gradually destroy your device. Even with them that's true, but it takes a lot longer. The same tech that protects your phone from immersion protects it from getting sauteed in sweat while it's your pocket while you're working.
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You don't have much a a choice if you're going for that IP68 rating - Those things have to be sealed up tight. And if you do try to repair it, that waterproof rating is toast.
IP68 is only 1.5m of water for 3 minutes. I've replaced multiple batteries on waterproof watches (claiming things like 5m, 10m), and they didn't appear to suffer for things like swimming.
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You may have missed the invention of gaskets.
No, you don't need to glue everything together to get an IP rating. Diving equipment is repairable, and these things are actually waterproof under high pressure, not merely water resistant as in "warranty doesn't cover water damage", like most phones are.
Interestingly, one of the very few remaining phones with user removable battery, the Galaxy XCover Pro has an IP68 rating.
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What do you think glue IS, if not a "strong adhesive"?
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Glue is a part of adhesive tape. The tape isn't the problem. The glue is.
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I still had to heat it up and lever the battery out, with much faffing and cursing while trying to avoid desoldering the other components. It would have been the same with glue and no tape.
The supposed "pull the tab" thing works maybe 20% of the time.
And all this is completely undocumented by the vendors.
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I repair gasket sealed scale indicators and other instruments all the time. It's how I make my living. Adhesive sealants are the cheap lazy way out. If you're making cheap consumer grade junk it's probably all you can do.
Apple just makes cheap consumer junk. And they have the gall to overcharge for it. And they've cultivated a stable of customers who bend over and take it, somehow.
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Of course it will. We've literally never been able to build consumer electronics without it, even back in the 70s.
But your ignorance is showing. Glue is not an issue for these devices, and they specifically use one that can be thermally weakened. You want to get angry about something why not focus on the non-standard screws that (unlike glue) solve precisely no engineering problem not already covered by a standard screw.
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Bollocks. I've seen plenty of electronic devices where no glue was used. Sometimes the product would have benefited from some, like a dab of hot glue to immobilize a large capacitor.
Both stupid fasteners and unnecessary use of glue are irritating. Most often the glue is used in order to avoid using some fasteners, so the product can be microscopically smaller, and/or cheaper to assemble. But products should be designed to be repairable, for the good of all the humans and the biosphere upon which we depend.
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Both stupid fasteners and unnecessary use of glue are irritating.
I absolutely agree. Unnecessary use of glue is irritating. Fortunately the only Apple product I've actually seen "unnecessary" glue is in the earpods. Everywhere else a thermally releasing glue was chosen for it's technical ability to mount directly to glass or frame so thing that threading a screw is nigh impossible.
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What's a "non-standard screw"?
Because a lot of standard screws just aren't mass manufacturing handy. Phillips screws were invented because they were faster to screw in than flatheads. Then you add in hexhead, torx, square (Robertson), which improve greatly on Phillips because well, Phillips really sucks by comparison.
If your job is t
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Indeed. You're completely correct.
Unfortunately the Pentalobe screw was invented to solve the exclusive problem of Apple wanting to create a screw that had no screwdriver on the market, and then attempted to legally prevent the sale of the screwdriver.
It's also a screw used just by Apple, hence "non-standard".
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If your job is to screw in screws all day, the productivity increase from using a better head is enformous. Show a carpenter a Robertson screw and they're amazed - the screw sticks to the driver without magnets (magnetic heads attract steel dust like nobody's business) and can be driven in at any angle.
Yes, but the pentalobe screw is NOT better in such terms than a Torx.
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I'm old enough to remember when smartphones had removable back covers that just snapped into place, making it trivial to replace the battery. Somehow they were not any thicker or less durable because of that, but Apple decided to use glue anyway. In fact they were doing it long before their devices were stupidly thin, from at least the original iPod.
Remember screws? Before the iPod portable devices like the Walkman and Nomad used to have those. In fact most modern phones still do, just internally rather tha
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I still have one and sorry but you have rose coloured glasses on. They were by necessity less durable than commonly used magnesium alloy, they were thicker on account of the added latches, and I'm not sure why you think this is relevant to the glue issue because even those devices had core components glued in.
Remember screws? Before the iPod portable devices like the Walkman and Nomad used to have those.
I do remember screws. I also remember walkmans or as I like to call them "15 iPod nanos stacked next to each other except without the storage capacity". An no modern phones with the dimensions of a fla
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That should be universally condemned. But it won't be. This practice will be defended, right here ---
Yeah so...
I am guilty of this. I built a device where the two case halves were glued together. The (non rechargeable) battery was trivially replaceable and it was essentially disposable (expected use was a few months, it wasn't a consumer device, and wasn't the sort of thing or expensive enough people would want to take a risk on reconditioned units). There wasn't really anything inside to repair anyway, it
Building your devices with GLUE (Score:2)
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Why do you hate wood furniture and cabinetry?
Does this exist in the US? (Score:3)
I don't think we need to go as far as passing a law to make it happen, but is there a site that does this already?
With RAM soldered into the board, if your RAM dies, you need a new main board, making it very complicated to repair. RAM on my old thinkpad is a 10 minute repair. Easy. I would like to see the scale of difficulty of repairs. What's a 0? What is a 10? I can't imagine trying to repair an iPhone without cracking the screen. I tried to replace the battery on an Pixel 1 phone and ended up with a crack. Plus, you need a heat gun to even get started. That's not easy.
But it's a balancing act. For the manufacturer touting sleek and sophisticated *and* waterproof, you gotta have a phone case that's sealed up tight, which will complicate repair. I'm no Apple apologist, but I can see their angle on it.
I'll stay old school for as long as I can.
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I'm guessing a 0 might be something where the electronics are 3d-printed right into the product body [slashdot.org]?
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Fine and dandy if they are willing to accept the well deserved crappy repairability rating. But if any of their products are above a 3, then they had to have cheated.
Re:Does this exist in the US? (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think we need to go as far as passing a law to make it happen, but is there a site that does this already?
Yes.
His name, is Louis Rossman. And he does have a few things to say about the iPhone 12:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
I hope he has not died from laughter by now regarding this rating that probably should be no higher than a 1, given serialized parts and software fuckery on behalf of the manufacturer. Not to mention trying to get your hands on modern repair schematics, diagnostic tools, or genuine parts.
Hey, at least you can change the screen protector and case you installed without bricking it. For now.
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I can hear him now. "That's Rossmann."
Sorry about that Louis. Thanks for the entertainment.
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I don't think we need to go as far as passing a law to make it happen, but is there a site that does this already?
With RAM soldered into the board, if your RAM dies, you need a new main board, making it very complicated to repair. RAM on my old thinkpad is a 10 minute repair. Easy. I would like to see the scale of difficulty of repairs. What's a 0? What is a 10? I can't imagine trying to repair an iPhone without cracking the screen. I tried to replace the battery on an Pixel 1 phone and ended up with a crack. Plus, you need a heat gun to even get started. That's not easy.
But it's a balancing act. For the manufacturer touting sleek and sophisticated *and* waterproof, you gotta have a phone case that's sealed up tight, which will complicate repair. I'm no Apple apologist, but I can see their angle on it.
I'll stay old school for as long as I can.
That is nothing unique to iPhones. They tend to score relatively highly on the iFixit repairability list and there are plenty of Android devices that score way worse on iFixit when it comes to repairability:
https://www.ifixit.com/smartph... [ifixit.com]
It's the Macbooks that get a consistently poor rating from iFixit:
https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-... [ifixit.com]
Which is true. For example, one used to be able to at least upgrade the parts of MacBooks that really mattered, i.e. SSD and RAM but that's not possible anymore.
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That is nothing unique to iPhones. They tend to score relatively highly on the iFixit repairability list and there are plenty of Android devices that score way worse on iFixit when it comes to repairability...
Doesn't make that pile of shit sitting on the bench, any better or worse. It's still a pile of shit, no matter what animal made it. (And boy you weren't kidding with the repair ratings. Samsung is rather horrible.)
We should demand better. Or at least have options. Not everyone buys a divers watch. Not everyone, requires extreme waterproofing. Would be nice to have Apple options with a removable battery, waterproofing be damned.
We carry our lives around in these damn things, so I've never not wrapped a s
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That is nothing unique to iPhones. They tend to score relatively highly on the iFixit repairability list and there are plenty of Android devices that score way worse on iFixit when it comes to repairability...
Doesn't make that pile of shit sitting on the bench, any better or worse. It's still a pile of shit, no matter what animal made it. (And boy you weren't kidding with the repair ratings. Samsung is rather horrible.)
We should demand better. Or at least have options. Not everyone buys a divers watch. Not everyone, requires extreme waterproofing. Would be nice to have Apple options with a removable battery, waterproofing be damned.
We carry our lives around in these damn things, so I've never not wrapped a smartphone in an Otterbox Defender case. Bulky, but it serves a purpose. Multiple phones going back I don't know how many years, and not even a scratched screen. Same for tablets I've owned. I've purposely dropped and even thrown them on demonstration, to convince others (who are usually standing in front of me trying to work a $1000 phone with a horribly cracked screen). Knock on wood, they continue to deliver.
I don't see why RAM and SSDs must be permanently soldered onto the mainboard nor do I see why I have to rip out the mainboard entirely and detach the monitor to replace a worn out old USB socket.
You probably would see it clearer if you were the millionaire working for the company doing this, being paid massive bonuses for factory RAM and SSD upgrades. As usual, Greed is in charge.
I can see how the inability to upgrade might bother people who like to penny pinch by buying the minimum levels of RAM and SSD and then learn from painful experience that maxing out right off the bat is no more expensive than upgrading later.
Uh, when it comes to Apple, this has little to do with "penny pinching". It's more along the lines of being financially raped. I swapped out my HDD for an SSD and doubled the RAM on an older Mac Mini (when we still could do those things). That upgrade was a fraction of what Apple would have charged. Their $699 "starter" Mac Mini becomes a $3000 investment after "maxing out" upgrades. No more expensive than upgrading later? Yeah, with another computer, and maybe a tablet or two to go with it. Give me a break. Even if you can afford the upgrades, that's not the point. Apple didn't become a trillion dollar company by not finding 1,000 ways to fleece the iSheep.
I see you forgot to take your meds this morning ...
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I see you forgot to take your meds this morning ...
I see you're a Fanboi. Enjoy your fleecing. Defend it even. My vitamins don't have shit on that iDrug.
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I see you forgot to take your meds this morning ...
I see you're a Fanboi. Enjoy your fleecing. Defend it even. My vitamins don't have shit on that iDrug.
That entire post just goes to my point. What is it you are on? ... Lithium?
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I see you forgot to take your meds this morning ...
I see you're a Fanboi. Enjoy your fleecing. Defend it even. My vitamins don't have shit on that iDrug.
That entire post just goes to my point. What is it you are on? ... Lithium?
You rather enjoy contradicting yourself, by complaining about soldered in components and then admonishing those who don't "max out" their hardware direct from the manufacturer. And you're the one question my sobriety here? Take another iHit and relax. Your wallet is plenty fat to afford to buy "more than one USB connector" iAdapter. Obviously.
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I see you forgot to take your meds this morning ...
I see you're a Fanboi. Enjoy your fleecing. Defend it even. My vitamins don't have shit on that iDrug.
That entire post just goes to my point. What is it you are on? ... Lithium?
You rather enjoy contradicting yourself, by complaining about soldered in components and then admonishing those who don't "max out" their hardware direct from the manufacturer. And you're the one question my sobriety here? Take another iHit and relax. Your wallet is plenty fat to afford to buy "more than one USB connector" iAdapter. Obviously.
Are you self medicating with mushrooms?
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The repairability index is explained here.
https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/i... [ecologie.gouv.fr]
The key criteria are
The calculation of the repairability index of each product model is based on five criteria.
- Documentation: score determined by the producer's commitment to make technical documents available free of charge, in number of years, to repairers and consumers.
- Disassembly and access, tools, fasteners: score determined by the ease of disassembly of the product, the type of tools required and the characteristics of the
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Speaking as someone who has repaired one, if the iPod Touch, with its soldered-in battery, gets a score that's non-negative, the whole thing is a scam. It is quite possibly the single most un-repairable product I've ever encountered, because the most common part that fails is almost impossible to replace.
If I ruled the world, Apple would be fined a million dollars for every day that the iPod Touch remains on the market with a soldered-in battery. I would never have bought mine if I had known what a disast
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Independent repairability scores? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ifixit gives my MacBook Pro a repairability score of 1. I know this because the touch bar started flickering, and investigation showed this is a common problem that costs $800-1000 to repair. The touch bar module and cable are about $30. The rest is labor. Apple's standard repair is to replace the whole upper case assembly, including keyboard, battery, and touch bar -- at a similar price.
Yeah, 1 sounds about right. I'm guessing Apple gives this a 5, for halfway between not at all and easy.
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On a related note, US military procurement specs often have requirements that certain classes of repair can be completed within a certain amount of time using readily-available tools (specialty tools are tethered to the device) and minimal training. These specs are verified during acceptance testing.
The French scores should be tied to complete DIY repair guides, including part costs and labor estimates. Repair prices should be capped to the given estimates. This has worked well for the automotive industr
Re:Independent repairability scores? (Score:5, Informative)
So if Apple says a component can be replaced for $X parts and Y hours, then they should be legally required to charge $X+Y*(minimum wage) or less for the repair.
I don't think too many trained/skilled electronics repair technicians, are working*(minimum wage), so that calculation might have to have just a wee bit more leeway, but I certainly agree with your overall point. Perhaps France will help bring repair documentation to the rest of the world. By legal force.
This has worked well for the automotive industry...
Perhaps not so much. A fender bender, can easily cost thousands these days on most cars given all the safety/proximity sensors (and purposely designing all kinds of lighting in bumpers instead of mounting it higher). I've heard horror stories about Tesla repairs.
Re:Independent repairability scores? (Score:4, Interesting)
I've heard horror stories about Tesla repairs.
I don't know what you mean? Tesla keeps bragging about how much cheaper these cars are to maintain than any internal combustion vehicle. I'm sure that the fact that my first year out of warranty involved a $2000 windshield, $1450 parking brake calliper, and $3000 sway bar link must be way below the maintenance costs on most other vehicles. Right? Right? Tesla wouldn't lie would they????
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I've heard horror stories about Tesla repairs.
I don't know what you mean? Tesla keeps bragging about how much cheaper these cars are to maintain than any internal combustion vehicle. I'm sure that the fact that my first year out of warranty involved a $2000 windshield, $1450 parking brake calliper, and $3000 sway bar link must be way below the maintenance costs on most other vehicles. Right? Right? Tesla wouldn't lie would they????
Ha! Now that is how you swing the almighty Bat of Sarcasm.
I don't think all of my DIY maintenance combined on my last three ICE vehicles, adds up to that. I feel your pain, but I don't want to. A $2000 windshield? Damn. A random rock kicked up, is hardly even your fault, and damn near expected after years of driving any car.
Insurance companies are going to have to start selling Tesla riders to prepare for that hurricane repair bill.
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So if Apple says a component can be replaced for $X parts and Y hours, then they should be legally required to charge $X+Y*(minimum wage) or less for the repair.
I don't think too many trained/skilled electronics repair technicians, are working*(minimum wage), so that calculation might have to have just a wee bit more leeway, but I certainly agree with your overall point. Perhaps France will help bring repair documentation to the rest of the world. By legal force.
Repair documentation and repairability and parts costs are two sepersaet things. Apple could easily release a repair document for iPhones:
1. Screen blank or cracked: Replace entire screen assembly
2. Case cracked. Replace case.
3. Software problem: Wipe phone aand reisntall OS. Hope customer made backup.
4. Elecrical connection /charging issue: Replace entire motherboard.
5. All other issues: Replace entire phone.
Parts costs: 500 - 1000+ (Eurps/Dollars or Pounds); depending on what was replaced.
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Problems with a MacBook Pro, eh? I'll go ahead and offer my data.
First problem was battery swelling, but Apple fixed it under warranty. The first time. More swollen now than then and expecting it to die from it, negating my earlier happiness. I couldn't even get a replacement price for the battery. Not sure what to make of that reticence. Meanwhile, the speaker had gone bad, but the speaker jack never worked properly with any of my external speakers. Only one channel at a time. (So far I'm unwilling to just
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Fairly high quality Bluetooth speakers are something you can pick up at thrift stores for a few dollars. Because consumers in general and the people who price things at thrift stores are fucking clueless, a lot of the $3-6 speakers at thrifts just need to be fully charged and they are good.
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Interesting lead and I may pursue it. There's also a used computer store I sometime visit...
I actually did a fair amount of research about Bluetooth speakers some years back, but decided against. I think the main barrier was the hassle of re-pairing since I have several devices that might use it. Just seemed much easier to plug in one of the external speakers I already have, but maybe times have changed enough?
(But why didn't Slashdot let me know about your reply? I only noticed it because of the moderation
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Ifixit gives my MacBook Pro a repairability score of 1
To be fair, iFixit is also iDontLikeApple...
Forget glue, where's the custom screwdriver? (Score:3)
Until Apple sells a pentalobe screwdriver on their website their products automatically qualify for a repairability score of zero. There's no technical or engineering benefit to the pentalobe shape and by attempting to control the supply of the screwdriver they should automatically get a fail mark in that regard (at least they failed controlling the market though).
The same goes for any device or component not available if Apple choses to arbitrarily ban non-certified components. I.e. If you want to block after market fingerprint scanner modules due to "security" issues, fine. If you don't provide such a fingerprint module for sale to your customers, fuck you, ZERO.
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Apple has designed in 'special difficult to obtain' tools in their case designs going all the way back to the first Macintosh. Blow Job actually boasted about the 'hacker proof' design of the Mac enclosure on stage at press events. It's deeply engrained in the Apple culture. They would NEVER make the mistake of an open design again like the Apple 2.
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Apple has designed in 'special difficult to obtain' tools in their case designs going all the way back to the first Macintosh. Blow Job actually boasted about the 'hacker proof' design of the Mac enclosure on stage at press events. It's deeply engrained in the Apple culture. They would NEVER make the mistake of an open design again like the Apple 2.
Yea. The ]['s documentation even included schematics; and you could actually call Apple and get soemone who was an actual engineer. I would not be surprised if i spoke with Woz on occasion back in the early days of the ][. Jobs, for all his brillance, was interested in design and saw, IMHO, hackers as butchers who would ruin his beautiful designs. Not that he was wrong about the direction he took Apple; just his worldview differed from Woz's.
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If you mean a desktop Mac with "Mac" then you are grossly wrong.
Considering that most were super simple to open and had expansion slots.
No idea about modern iMacs, though.
What's the score ... (Score:2)
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Apple assigns themselves the ratings?? (Score:2)
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