Developer Successfully Virtualizes Windows for Arm on M1 Mac (macrumors.com) 114
Developer Alexander Graf has successfully virtualized the Arm version of Windows on an M1 Mac, proving that the M1 chip is capable of running Microsoft's operating system. From a report: Currently, Macs with the M1 chip do not support Windows and there is no Boot Camp feature as there is on Intel Macs, but support for Windows is a feature that many users would like to see. Using the open-source QEMU virtualizer, Graf was able to virtualize the Arm version of Windows on Apple's M1 chip, with no emulation. Since the M1 chip is a custom Arm SoC, it is no longer possible to install the x86 version of Windows or x86 Windows apps using Boot Camp, as was the case with previous Intel-based Macs. However, he said in a Tweet that when virtualized on an M1 Mac, "Windows ARM64 can run x86 applications really well. It's not as fast as Rosetta 2, but close."
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
The news is: Developer ported qemu to macOS on ARM.
That was not a trivial task. If you want to know the details, here are his patches [kernel.org].
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You're too positive with that AC. I hate these spoiled-rotten kids who strut in here, chest puffed out acting like their dick is hanging out of the bottom of their boxer shorts, and say stuff like "this isn't news, that was easy".
They're about as admirable as my fat sweaty neighbour screaming at his TV during a football match saying shit like "that was an easy play I could have made it" when in reality he breaks into a sweat and asthmatic choking just by getting his fat ass up off the sofa to fetch another
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[...] and say stuff like "this isn't news, that was easy".
I'm afraid you've gotten it backwards. spth did not say that it was "easy." They said that it "not a trivial task" — quite the opposite of easy.
Re: And? (Score:1)
I was agreeing with him about the previous comment.
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I'm afraid you've gotten it backwards. spth did not say that it was "easy." They said that it "not a trivial task" - quite the opposite of easy.
I'm afraid you've gotten it backwards... MrNaz was commenting on the chickenshit AC that spth was disagreeing with.
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Re: And? (Score:1)
Re: And? (Score:1)
Why? (Score:1)
support for Windows is a feature that many users would like to see
If you need support for WIndows, why do you buy a Mac?
Genuine question: I grok that people prefer MacOS over Windows (hell, I'd prefer a dead badger over Windows). But if the Mac's choice of available applications is lackluster enough to be a problem for you, maybe you'd be better off with a cheap generic Intel Windows box. You know, just from a practicality standpoint.
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1. A single app that is Windows-only
2. Windows browser/client testing
I don’t think many people are using Parallels/VMware to run games or looking for more software, usually it’s because they are forced.
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Re: Why? (Score:2)
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How practical is it to carry two laptops, one for the few Windows-exclusive applications you use, the other for the few macOS-exclusive applications you use (such as Xcode and the iPhone simulator)?
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Seriously. Good grief - even if their job requires it, most people aren't even willing to carry two separate cellphones with them.
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*YOUR* response is way out of left field. Who doesn't know you can get an Intel box to run Windows?
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Re: Why? (Score:2)
Not all Mac hardware is nice... I have a Mac Mini that I need to use in order to debug Web apps on iPhone, and it's a pig of a computer, as is Safari for web development.
At least Microsoft produce their Web browser for Linux now, so I'm not forced to use a totally crappy computer and OS in order to do the simplest of debugging.
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At least Microsoft produce their Web browser for Linux now, so I'm not forced to use a totally crappy computer and OS in order to do the simplest of debugging.
That’s kinda bizarre; what are you testing in Chromium-flavored-Edge on Linux that couldn’t be tested on any other Chromium-based browser?
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Clearly, you're not a developer. You're not even vaguely familiar with web development.
You need to test in all browsers. You cannot assume that because it works on your version of Firefox on your dev PC, that it'll work on any other PC running any other browser. You must test using a range of browsers and configurations to be sure your web app will work for all (or most) users. And even then, there are likely to be crazy edge cases such as specific version / OS / hardware combinations that will cause someth
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If you need "to test in all browsers", why must these browsers all run on a laptop that you can take with you to the coffee shop? Why do "web developers" think that this is what software development is?
As a professional programmer for decades there was a never a moment in my career when developing in this manner was possible for me nor was doing so ever interesting. The last thing I'd want is to be tethered to a 13" display. I had better than that in the 80's.
"Crazy edge cases" are things to look for in
Re: Why? (Score:1)
Well maybe your experience from 30 years ago is a little out of date.
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Yes,
if you use shitty tools, you need to do that. And that as not the argument. The argument was that he is obviously incapable to use Safari on a Mac to debug.
And I'm a developer, just not much into web. That is to boring.
And even then, there are likely to be crazy edge cases such as specific version / OS / hardware combinations that will cause something to bug out.
Nope. That is so exaggerated that it is basically wrong, hint: hardware, hint: OS. The browser does not know anything about the hardware. To ge
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No. This whole thread started with someone saying "I have a Mac Mini that I need to use in order to debug Web apps".
By your own admission, you're not a WEB developer, so a good start to your contribution would have been to recognize that it's not your area of expertise, and STFU'd. If web is too boring for you and you're "not much into" it, then what the fuck are you doing firing your mouth off as though you know shit about being a web developer? Sounds more like you're pontificating about why everyone shou
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The point is: he said he had to use it, and the OS is shitty and the Brwoser not good enough for debugging.
All that is bollocks.
and testing in multiple browsers as they go along is essential to keep that issue under control. And for that you use automated tools.
Sorry, parent was just an idiot who has no clue about programming. And I don not need to be a "Web developer" to fix a bug in a JavaScript part of an Application. Bug are usually obvious.
This is why most web developers will use one browser mainly, bu
Re: Why? (Score:1)
"Bug are usually obvious."
Given this comment, I conclude that you're lying about being a developer. End of conversation.
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Giving your stupid answer, obviously you are not a developer :P Or a super bad one. ROFL.
Differences. (Score:2)
What exactly is the difference in debugging a Web App with Safari?
Even if both are forks of each other and of the venerable KHTML, Safari's Webkit is much older and lags behind Google's Blink which tend to have the latest HTML5/Javascript bells and whistles.
even the keyboard shortcuts are mostly the same.
So much the same that Mac OS has its very own personal interpretation of what the "home" and "end" keys are supposed to do (when they are not in an active war against the navigation and function keys). Compose key is a concept entirely missing in Mac OS, but handy if happen to speak other language beside English (and t
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Compose key is a concept entirely missing in Mac OS, but handy if happen to speak other language beside English (and type elsewhere than on /.), etc.
HOME and END are hardly relevant for debuging the web part of an application. But I agree that they are retardedly used.
The Mac does not need a compose key, as character are composed either automatically or you long press a char and a pop up to pick pops up.
If you meed light weight containers, you should run Docker, like everyone else :P
Help apreciated. (Score:2)
If you meed light weight containers, you should run Docker, like everyone else :P
Correct-me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand Docker on Mac OS runs Linux containers by running a Linux kernel in a VM.
That's great for testing Linux environment, but I already have multiple Linux machines for that.
What would be interesting for my actual developper day to day activity (not Web. bioinformatics HPC. Runs mostly on Linux clusters, but there are user who want to test it on their mac laptops) would be to try running mac OS containers-like (e.g.: chroots or whatever) on Darwin kernel.
For te
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For most of your examples you do not need long press.
You press  and then e to get the composite or ^ and o or ~ and n etc.
I actually was of the assumption that Docker on Mac runs on native Mac Os and not on a "linux derivate" but I might be wrong there.
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Not all Mac hardware is nice... I have a Mac Mini that I need to use in order to debug Web apps on iPhone, and it's a pig of a computer.
Mac mini is very similar to the other Mac, in fact might be even more likely to have upgradable RAM, swappable HDD/SSD. It is mostly specific by being designed without its own screen, otherwise - as decent, as other Mac flavors, and not "pig of computer" because of the form factor at all. Very nice and compact machine to start with, if one prefers to not shell out couple hundreds more on a built-in display and portability.
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If you need support for WIndows, why do you buy a Mac?
For software developers it is very useful to have a mac that also runs windows. You can test your software for both operating systems using one machine.
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For software developers it is very useful to have a mac that also runs windows. You can test your software for both operating systems using one machine.
Even if that is true, you should stick to an Intel Mac.
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Intel laptops are getting very long in the tooth. Arm is killing it the low-power/small laptop market and AMD is dominating the high-power/power-user laptop market. I wouldn’t want to buy an Intel laptop today unless I was getting a nice discount.
A return of desktops? (Score:2)
Laptops, tablets and mobile phones have kinda lost their value to me overnight
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
>A weirdly larger percentage of developers use Macs than probably should.
I don't think it's so weird. Las I heard it was pretty universally accepted that 'nix is the best development platform, and MacOS delivers 'nix with a highly polished desktop interface.
Not to mention the same hardware (pre-ARM) would also run native Windows and Linux, which is convenient for cross-platform testing among the three most popular OSes. Good luck getting a non-bodged version of MacOS running on any other platform. Not to mention MacOS is pretty much *the* development platform for iOS apps - which are far and away the most profitable app platform.
Plus, Macs just have really nice hardware (usually). Maybe it's nothing special under the hood - but the fit and finish outclasses pretty much anything available on the Windows side. The display especially is incredibly important to developers, and Mac laptops have historically severely outclassed the Windows options in the same price range. Both in resolution, and image quality. High resolution means smoother and/or smaller fonts, which makes a developer's life more pleasant. There's also font rendering - MacOS is second to none in their font rendering quality. While Linux.... less said the better.
Re: Why? (Score:2)
For reference, Linux virtualisation support shipped in macOS with ARM macs, so with windows, your trifecta there is once again supported.
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Linux virtualization support has very little to do with Linux support.
And as I've mentioned elsewhere, Arm Windows support is basically pointless. If your required program doesn't have a Mac version, it almost certainly doesn't have an Arm Windows version.
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That's right... I had forgotten about that. They did finally make it less worthless.
Here's hoping for decent 64-bit support soon, it's getting to be challenging to find 32-bit Windows programs anymore - though I'll admit I have many old ones that you'll have to pry from my cold dead fingers.
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ARM windows, just like macOS on Apple ARM, can emulate x86 windows Programs.
And actually I had assumed that most modern Windows program are fat binaries for ARM and Intel, are they not?
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Well, I don't do so much Windows programming anymore, so I might have missed something important, but this is the first I've heard of such fat binaries even being possible.
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I actually only assumed they are. But perhaps they are not.
Re: Why? (Score:2)
Do they have fat (multi-arch) binaries on Windows? Iâ(TM)ve never see an option to build such things, although itâ(TM)s been 10 years since I was exclusively developing on Windows.
To date, Windows ARM could only run 32-bit Intel binaries. This is changing (or might already have happened.) macOS only runs 64-bit binaries these days, whether ARM or Intel. Our optimised Intel code runs almost as fast via Rosetta 2 on Apple Silicon as our unoptimised plain C code compiled for armv8-a, so it's usabl
Yes, MacOS is a good *nix, but... (Score:2)
... if you want to do anything in the way of unix C/C++ development thats not standard Posix then (apart from some low level system stuff) you're going to have to learn Objective-C because all the GUI, video and audio APIs are written in that dog of a language.
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going to have to learn Objective-C because all the GUI, video and audio APIs are^H^H^H were written in that dog of a language.
Fixed that for you.
However you learn Objective-C in a day, if you know either C or C++, and probably in a week if you know Java or C#.
That is most likely not a waste of time anyway.
Re: Yes, MacOS is a good *nix, but... (Score:2)
Sure,you can write in Swift, an even more useless language. Great if you're a C++ dev.
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Switching from C++ to Swift should be easy.
And as Swift is ported to most platforms we only lack a portable GUI atm.
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Plus, Macs just have really nice hardware (usually). Maybe it's nothing special under the hood - but the fit and finish outclasses pretty much anything available on the Windows side.
Basically can't find a good laptop case anywhere else.
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Until this last year there were hardly any high-end, battery-efficient AMD Ryzen laptops available at all. System76 is still working on their Ryzen laptop. Dell has only a few models available. The high-end Dell business laptops with all the bells and whistles (and thin!) are still Intel. So no, AMD is not dominating the high-power/power-user laptop market. Far from it. They are doing well, but not dominating.
I'm not sure what this "low-power/small laptop" market is that you speak of. Chromebooks? Tho
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macOS and Apple hardware is slowly losing its luster for unix developers.
Perhaps you should once go to a developer conference.
Sit in the front row, and when the talk gets boring, turn around and look what laptops people have in front of them.
More than 50% will be Macs. There is no premature death of Apple laptops in sight soon.
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A weirdly larger percentage of developers use Macs than probably should.
When Apple switched to x86 processors you could get one machine that ran all 3 major operating systems, doesn't seem weird to me.
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A weirdly larger percentage of developers use Macs than probably should.
When Apple switched to x86 processors you could get one machine that ran all 3 major operating systems, doesn't seem weird to me.
And with the new machines you can get one machine that can run all 3 major operating systems, on "both" architectures!
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You can run x86 Windows 10 on them?
Isn't this what Alexander Graf has achieved? Of course this is not official, but we can still hope.
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But SuperKendall told us that the M1 Mac would be superior in every way to an Intel Mac for software development, and he's a professional IOS developer so he knows.
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But SuperKendall told us that the M1 Mac would be superior in every way to an Intel Mac for software development, and he's a professional IOS developer so he knows.
At least he knows the difference between an emulator and a translator.
One machine for all Mac/Win x86-64/ARM binaries (Score:2)
For software developers it is very useful to have a mac that also runs windows. You can test your software for both operating systems using one machine.
Even if that is true, you should stick to an Intel Mac.
Not necessarily. If the same toolchain can produce x86 and ARM binaries (Xcode or Visual Studio) then for development purposes either Intel or M1 would likely be fine. One machine that produce Intel and ARM binaries for macOS and Intel and ARM binaries for Windows. One dev and one machine can still produce all the necessary binaries from either Intel or M1. Assuming of course an ARM version of Windows running on the M1.
Re: One machine for all Mac/Win x86-64/ARM binarie (Score:2)
We create our Windows ARM binaries on Linux using clang-cl. Therefore no impediment to doing the same on macOS. Clang-cl even generates faster code for ARM than Visual Studio does. The only piece missing from the puzzle for me is an ARM build of Windows on MSDN.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you need support for WIndows, why do you buy a Mac?
People want particular Windows apps, not Windows. And if so, yes, an M1 Mac would be a bad choice. They could an Intel Mac, or Intel Linux laptop with QEMU instead.
But look buddy, you have it wrong. This article is not intended as purchasing advice - it is just a cool hack. Maybe you have come to Slashdot by mistake?
Re: Why? (Score:2)
it is just a cool hack.
Nah.
-jcr
How insightful, yes of course the WINE Emulator and it's Windows emulation on linux is way cooler than X86 Windows on ARM Windows on QEMU on an ARM Mac.
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There are plenty of Applications that only run on windows.
If you need one of them, you either have to have two computers and remote desktop into the windows box, or have a VM with windows. And a VM with windows was pretty difficult on ARM based Macs. Hence this nice article.
You know, just from a practicality standpoint. It is absolutely not practical to have your emails and chat on one computer and your daily work on another one, well as said above it can be mitigated a bit with remote desktops.
Re: Why? (Score:2)
We develop cross platform SDKs, including macOS, Windows, Linux, mobile devices, etc. Macs have been a great platform for this, besides Mac being the only official hardware you can use to develop for macOS and iOS. If Microsoft would just put an ARM build of Windows on MSDN, this could continue.
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If you need support for WIndows, why do you buy a Mac?
You wouldn't, but Microsoft makes ARM devices and the M1 chip could be interesting for that line of business.
I'm betting Apple won't sell it to them though.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
>If you need support for WIndows, why do you buy a Mac?
Same reason my Linux computers generally either dual-boot Windows, or run it in a virtual machine - there's a few programs I occasionally need to use that only run on Windows (Most also run on Wine, but not all. I'm looking at you Fusion360). I don't need them all the time, but when I do... I do. Doesn't mean I want to run Windows all the time, any more than I'd want to drive a beater pickup all the time.
That said - I fail to see the benefit here. People run Windows as a secondary OS almost exclusively for software compatibility - and last I heard Windows for Arm isn't compatible with x86 Windows programs. So what's the point?
I mean, awesome that they got Qemu running properly on Arm MacOS, I'm sure that'll be useful for many things...just not really for this.
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Windows 10 for 64-bit ARM can run 32-bit x86 apps in emulation. Emulation of 64-bit apps is not yet ready. It should have become available for beta-testers in the Windows Insider Program, but that has been pushed back for all I've heard.
The old Windows RT on 32-bit ARM is a dead horse though. I feel so sorry for consumers that had been lured into buying that.
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and last I heard Windows for Arm isn't compatible with x86 Windows programs.
It is, it uses similar approaches to emulate x86 as Apple does (since ever actually).
Re: Why? (Score:2)
Because the CPU in this thing is crazy good, so itâ(TM)s faster than a laptop i9, and cool enough to run fabless.
Re: Why? (Score:2)
If you need support for WIndows, why do you buy a M1 Mac?
Windows on ARM is needed as much as Linux on a toaster.
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Because they are Mac users that need to run some Windows applications? Do you really fail to understand this?
Back before it was known that the M1 wouldn't run Windows, the fanboys not only insisted that it would but that running Windows apps is what made the Mac the ultimate development machine. Then Apple had their pep rally and the fanboys suddenly changed their tune. Now it's "why would anyone want to do that?"
Meanwhile, it is possible to prefer OS X while simultaneously requiring applications that on
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This is actually a good thing. It means that people that buy these new macs will have access to some productivity software. Even if they have to emulate Windows on Mac to do that. I don't really see this being a problem thought. Every Mac owner that I know that buys a mac likes to show it off in Mac mode. But to do real work they boot it in to a Windows mode or a VM.
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Microsoft licensing (Score:4, Informative)
Great effort... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Well, if you can do Windows this way, you can do Linux this way.
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Not so long ago this would be praised as a cool hack. They did it because they could, so appreciate the level of skill you ignorant fuck.
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Congratulations! (Score:1)
You've raised uselessness to a new epic level.
The limitation has never been a technical one (Score:2)
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Unlike for iX-86/AMD-64 Windows, Microsoft DOES NOT SELL ARM-V8 Windows to end users, only to system integrators.
Therefore, if apple would pour engineering resources to run an OS people can not legally run, tey could be acused of willfull accesory to piracy.
The limitation to have Windows for ARM running on M1 silicion, either via Bootcamp or via Virtualization has never been a tecnical one. Is a legal one.
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I doubt it's a legal one either, given the disregard bordering on animosity Apple has always shown Linux - and Linux just wants system documentation so they can do the work themselves.
As far as Apple is concerned, the world begins and ends with Apple. Windows is maybe out there as a distant shore that sometimes calls for some slight concessions for compatability, but that's it. And Windows Arm is worthless for that - if your Windows program doesn't have a Mac version, it almost certainly doesn't have a Wi
Re: The limitation has never been a technical one (Score:3)
You realise that Linux virtualisation support shipped built in to macOS, and they even demoted it in the event video, right?
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Shush. You're going to spoil his narrative. Just smile and watch the storyteller entertain the children.
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Windows on ARM is mainly a Qualcomm thing, from the Lumia era - maturity of Snapdragon's UEFI support and Windows drivers for Adreno. Legwork from Apple and Microsoft required to bring that to M1.
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Locally owned system integrator practical? (Score:2)
Microsoft DOES NOT SELL ARM-V8 Windows to end users, only to system integrators.
What is the minimum volume that Microsoft requires of such a system integrator? I ask in order to assess whether it would be practical for each local Apple Authorized Reseller to apply to become a system integrator.
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Yeah, seems more like a good stress-test for a Qemu port than something actually useful in its own right. In which case they kinda buried the lead.
QEMU is handy for many things (Score:3)
So this is good news for nerds.
Those who buy Apple as Facebook machines are not the target audience. (At one time they were not the target Slashdot audience.)
The more OS any machine can run acceptably the better for those who can put it to use.
Wow Bringing Coals to Newcastle (Score:1)
Wow, bringing coals to newcastle, or sand the Middle East. Impressive in one sense, but an oxymoron in another. I just ponder running Windows and running it on a Mac hardware...putting a Yugo engine into a Ferrari. And get needed patches, update, security holes by running Windows.
Geekbench (Score:1)
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wake me up when you have it running .... (Score:2)
LoB