Apple's ARM Switch Will Be the End of Boot Camp (imore.com) 216
Apple has confirmed that switching to its own, ARM-based Apple silicon will signal the end of Boot Camp support. From a report: Apple will start switching its Macs to its own ARM-based processors later this year, but you won't be able to run Windows in Boot Camp mode on them. Microsoft only licenses Windows 10 on ARM to PC makers to preinstall on new hardware, and the company hasn't made copies of the operating system available for anyone to license or freely install. On John Gruber's WWDC Talk Show, Craig Federighi confirmed that Apple would not support Boot Camp on ARM Macs: "We're not direct booting an alternate operating system. Purely virtualization is the route. These hypervisors can be very efficient, so the need to direct boot shouldn't really be the concern."
But what about my games? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bootcamp has been one of the very few reasons that I've stuck to OSX instead of transitioning to a linux machine; the ability to dual-boot into a moderately-powered windows gaming machine was lovely; but now? Abandoning my Steam library is probably not worth the MacBook premium.
Re:But what about my games? (Score:5, Insightful)
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They demonstrated Shadow of the Tombraider running under x86 emulation on an A12Z chip, and it ran just fine. I'm sure there will be a large degree of overhead, but it's not like gaming under emulation will be impossible.
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Shadow of the Tomb Raider is one of those games that are well-known to often be limited by the power of the GPU, not by the CPU.
So this is just as expected.
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Right, but it's a modern AAA game that was running at what appeared to be a reasonably high framerate on what is effectively a 2018 tablet processor. Other games may have higher CPU requirements, but the ARM CPUs that Apple will put in their actual shipping laptops and desktops will be substantially faster, and their emulator may be more optimized by then as well. Furthermore, we can assume that any new game after that point will be ARM native, so if there is any CPU performance deficit in existing games, t
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Heavily depends on the hand. Tomb Raider is GPU bound so a weak CPU doesn't hurt it much.
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So why not just buy a MS Surface (Score:2)
If you want a locked down, walled garden, incapable of upgrading device?
The surface devices should also be much less expensive....
7 year old ARM Macs will be SOL - Landfill (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple tends to provide OS upgrades and security patches for machines for about 7 years since introduction. In an intel mac, after that period was over, you could bootcamp into windows, or install linux, and give a new lease of life to that machine by installing an OS which would continue to get security patches. Then you could keep using the machine, or hand it down to less demanding users in your circle, or donate it.
But with no bare metal booting of other OSs, it means that once the hardware stop receiving MacOS patches from apple (tipically, after seven years), you are SOL, because, even if you decided to do your activities in an emulated guest OS, the Host OS (that is to say, MacOS with no more security patches) becomes insecure by definition.
I hope that in the next seven years, apple reconsiders, and let people boot other OSs from bare metal, bt I am not holding my breath.
I went with apple in early 2009, and been very happy, but as of late, the direction they were taking with hardware (soldering RAM and/or SSDs to the mobo, using inordinate amounts of glue for batteries, etc) meant that I was seriously considering ditching them. This is just another reason to do so.
I'll keep using my current two macs as Macs for as long as I can, but next machine I buy, I may go Windows or Linux.
JM2C YMMV
Still usable beyond 7 years. (Score:2)
Apple tends to provide OS upgrades and security patches for machines for about 7 years since introduction.
After which, they still work... I have older Macs I still use even without updates.
after that period was over, you could bootcamp into windows, or install linux
Yes and...
But with no bare metal booting of other OSs
Whoa there. Apple is just saying they will not SUPPORT bare metal booting of an alternate OS. That does not mean it is not possible. No reason you couldn't run Linux if you didn't want to k
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Apple didn't support either Linux or Windows on the Intel machines when they first came out either. Then they released Bootcamp.
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"Whoa there. Apple is just saying they will not SUPPORT bare metal booting of an alternate OS. That does not mean it is not possible. No reason you couldn't run Linux if you didn't want to keep using it as is."
If they wanted to they could prevent you from booting an alternate OS. All they'd need to do is require any OS to be cryptographicly signed by Apple's private key. They do that and anyone wanting to boot Linux is SOL (unless they can crack Apple's key).
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Apart from your battery, anyhow. macOS 11 does not support your notebook, though.
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I run the latest version of Windows 10 on my 2012 laptop. The hardware requirements for Windows have not changed at all since Windows 7 was released in 2009, and those requirements aren't that different than Vista from 2006.
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2012 MacBook Pro? That's at least an i5, friend. You're an amateur.
Still using a 2010 Mac mini here. I'm pushing that old Core 2 Duo to its limi{#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER
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the Host OS (that is to say, MacOS with no more security patches) becomes insecure by definition.
It does not become insecure by definition. The fact that it needed updates in the first place indicated that it was insecure from the start.
The updates hopefully reduced the number of vulnerabilities. But since Apple seems incapable of making updates that only fix things, the new features usually introduce as many new vulnerabilities as the updates fix.
Just like Windows.
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As an owner of a 7-year old Mac Mini that I installed Linux on... I will say that the landfill might be the best place for it. The performance was comparable to a Raspberry Pi 4, so everything I was using it for was moved over to the Pi.
And, personally if I had a need to run a Linux machine in a coffee shop but needed to look like a proper hipster with a Mac, I would just go the VNC route with the Pi in my ironic bag powered by a battery bank. If I needed a more powerful machine... I would again be using V
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Well, Gee, I guess we'll... (Score:2)
...just have to run Windows for ARM on our Macs.
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Microsoft only licenses Windows 10 on ARM to PC makers to preinstall on new hardware, and the company hasn't made copies of the operating system available for anyone to license or freely install.
I know, reading TFS is so difficult.
Parallels gonna be ready? (Score:2)
Will VMWare's Parallels be ready in time for the ARM launch?
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Well no, since VMWare has no product called Parallels. You're thinking of a different company. And yes Parallels will be ready.
VMWare... well if the past is any indication, they'll be late to the party but they'll get there eventually.
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Will VMWare's Parallels be ready in time for the ARM launch?
VMWare's product is Fusion.
Parallels is a different beast.
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Microsoft not releasing standalone copies of Windows on ARM hasn't stopped people from putting it on things like the Raspberry Pi. I'm sure people will also put it in ARM virtual machines, even if Microsoft doesn't release standalone downloads of it.
Better walls in the garden (Score:2)
Where's the Apple goon squad? (Score:2)
A whole lot of Apple goons just got proven wrong. SuperKendall, where are you?
Hmmm, Apple withdrawing boot support for alternative OSes, who could have predicted?
End of Hackintosh's too (Score:2)
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You found some suckers on eBay who can't use Google hey?
https://archive.org/details/Sn... [archive.org]
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Not a hobby for me. I use a hack as my daily driver, with more power than Apple offers in a desktop, plus it's fully upgradeable and repairable. A fully POSIX-compliant OS with a professional UI and broad app support.
It might be wishful thinking, but I didn't hear them say definitively that they would stop making ANY x86 Macs, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Mac Pro line will stay Intel, and the future won't look as grim. Otherwise, man, 2020 has just been one kick in the ass after another.
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I didn't hear them say definitively that they would stop making ANY x86 Macs
So, potentially, that would mean Apple maintainining OS parity on two platforms, the professional one of which it already considers to be a fringe market.
From Apple's previous behaviour towards professional users, that seems unlikely.
There are reports of people stockpiling Intel Macs (Score:3)
Intel owes it's success to the IBM PC and The Altair 8800 before that, with their reverse engineered architecture. I hope Intel makes Apple a deal somehow to sell at least one model of intel mac in future
Typing this on a brand new Intel Macbook Air from Bootcamp.
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stockpiling Intel Macs
Apple. The new toilet roll.
Windows on ARM (Score:3)
I'm surprised they didn't go into some pact with Microsoft to support Bootcamp for Windows 10 on ARM.
Microsoft Needs the ARM Exposure, and since they'll be ton's of ARM Mac's soon...
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Of course not, for 100 reasons, why.... (Score:3)
... is this even at story. How could an ARM ISA dual boot into a native x86 OS? Amazing that Apple didn't just laugh at this question.
Why didn't that somebody ask serious questions like
"Will AppleARM native apps be available at ALL from any other distribution channel than an Apple Store?"
Re:Of course not, for 100 reasons, why.... (Score:4)
I think no one expected running Windows x86 or x86_64.
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True this. Allowing alternate ARM-based OSes to dual-boot would be no different from the current Boot Camp system, and there are ARM builds for Windows and Linux, as well as other more exotic OSes (FreeBSD et al).
Me, I'm mainly worried about x86 VM performance on an ARM Macbook - I do a lot of feature testing on my Macbook with virtualized network appliances and simulated network labs, all of which are x86_64 based. If that performance goes through the floor, I'm going to have no choice but to switch to a L
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It could boot Windows 10 for ARM or it could boot into a light weight hypervisor with x86 translation. Both already exist.
Is there a mass reading comprehension problem here (Score:3)
From the summary of the article:
Microsoft only licenses Windows 10 on ARM to PC makers to preinstall on new hardware, and the company hasn't made copies of the operating system available for anyone to license or freely install.
It looks like one of the main reasons Apple won't support Windows 10 on ARM is .. they can't. At least, not without Microsoft making it available at the OEM level.
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For Windows, yes. Not a barrier for ARM-based Linux installs, however.
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It's more that people will think it's actually Windows.
It won't be. Windows 10 on ARM won't run Windows executables at anywhere near normal operation - it'll emulate a 32-bit foreign instruction set and environment. That means performance is dead in the water.
Same problem as everyone has had since the days of WinCE, Windows for DEC Alpha, Windows for Itanium, Windows RT, etc.
It's getting *less* relevant but if you have Chrome or whatever, and aren't interested in x86 applications, do you really care what
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Windows 10 on ARM won't run Windows executables
I'd be willing to bet that if Microsoft thought that this market segment was of any value to it, native ARM versions of Windows apps would appear promptly.
Re:No native Linux either. (Score:5, Informative)
Unless you count the ARM based Linux they were running in the demo.
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Because anyone who wants Linux will be satisfied running it in a VM inside a proprietary OS. Also, how grateful should we be that Apple demonstrates this Linux "support" in a presentation on Rosetta 2!
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If you want Linux then buy hardware it runs on.
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Is this like Playstation actively preventing Linux, or just no official Apple support? I mean it's Linux for crying out loud, just port the damn thing! Someone will have this done in short order I think.
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Nope. That was running in a VM. No native booting of ARM linux is possible. So no buying used Macs and repurposing them with Linux. Or just buying the Mac laptops for the sake of running linux. Which is a shame because they'll be the best ARM laptops on the market. And could be great Linux machines. But like how MS wants you to use Linux, Apple also wants you to stick with Linux in a VM.
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We don't need no Apple support, we don't need no thought control.
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This is possibly the biggest drawback to the new style bootloaders that forbid any running of unapproved OS. While UEFI PCs often have ways around this, and there are signed shims for Linux, I would suspect Apple to be of the mindset that only Apple signed images get booted.
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It's a good thing you don't need "no Apple support" because you're not going to get it anyway.
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I'm not so sure Linux support is dead, back before apple switched to Intel, when they were still running PPC, I used to run various Linux Distros on my Power Mac G5. I think as long as the ability to boot from something external remain on the ARM Macs, someone will likely make a compatible Linux Distro to boot on them.
On a separate note, the limited experiences I have had visualizing x86 on ARM have not been pleasant or efficient.
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I'm not so sure Linux support is dead, back before apple switched to Intel, when they were still running PPC, I used to run various Linux Distros on my Power Mac G5. I think as long as the ability to boot from something external remain on the ARM Macs, someone will likely make a compatible Linux Distro to boot on them.
On a separate note, the limited experiences I have had visualizing x86 on ARM have not been pleasant or efficient.
Depends entirely upon how open the bootloader is...and let's be honest, do we really expect Apple to be open with that?
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That was before the era of trusted computing. Ahh the old Forth-based boot system, Open Firmware. Those were the days! Nothing like that now.
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They're not suggesting you emulate x86 on ARM, they're suggesting that if you want to run another OS on your mac, you virtualize ARM Linux or ARM Windows on your ARM Mac.
I'm not sure why people want native Linux so badly on a mac. You're running a *NIX operating system to begin with, and if there are things that you can't do directly on the stock OS, you can run some things in a virtual machine with relatively little overhead.
People that want to use Linux for philosophical reasons rather than practical reas
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Native performance and drivers. GPU passthrough on virtual machines tends to suck.
Will be interesting to see if they ditch Thunderbolt for ARM machines so you can't connect external GPUs any more.
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Back when they switched to Intel, there was a race to see who could hack another x86 OS onto it first. Once someone came up with the recipe of injecting EFI compatibility mode booting into the Mac EFI system partition and then using an EFI version of Windows Boot Manager to demonstrate it working, that's when Boot Camp came out officially supporting it. Apple basically did the same thing except putting a nice installer around it, and one big ass omnibus installer for the windows drivers for the hardware (
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Re:No native Linux either. (Score:5, Funny)
You get no street cred showing up at the hipster coffeeshop with a Thinkpad. They see that PC logo and know you're corporate stooge, they don't give a shit that you don't run systemd and you have the coolest anime desktop theme ever.
You show up with a Mac, though, and suddenly you've got the air of an artist about you. It doesn't matter that you're actually just grinding on PHP or Javascript or your humble homelab k8s cluster, you fit in, harmony with the vibe.
Re: No native Linux either. (Score:2)
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Well, all the software you purchase will run on exactly nothing besides Apple hardware, so how are you NOT locked in?
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Well in that case I'd show up with one of those old PPC Thinkpads that can run AIX, or Tadpole Alphabook with OpenVMS.
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While you'd get lots of respect from me, that crowd has their beards too short and with way too much saturation to know what they're looking at.
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Well in that case I'd show up with one of those old PPC Thinkpads that can run AIX, or Tadpole Alphabook with OpenVMS.
Your average hipster will just think it looks old and clunky.
Me? I'll bring my Toshiba Toughbook. Take no prisoners.
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In a coffee shop, beside the smell of hipsters, you also have to suffer overpriced coffee, noisy people, and risk having sun operate on you during walking to the shop. And, posting bug reports with 64 cores gives better cred than that Mac logo, while costing less.
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Dude, you can't just say "the coolest anime desktop theme ever" and not give us a link to it!
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You're drinking your coffee wrong.
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bought one for a child for school. he does homework on it, codes on it and runs bootcamp for steam games. guess its the end of that.
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No one, when it supports the narrative of Apple fanboys...and everyone, when it supports the narrative of Apple fanboys. Did you just start reading today? Just a few days ago, support for Linux and Windows was a given, as increased lockdown could not possibly be in Apple's plans.
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At the time the best I was getting from a different vendor that was small and light and sincere had 1080p screen.
It was perhaps a narrow window of time, but when carrying 2 laptops everywhere and using them as an off site work computer for months at a time, it was by far the best fit, and trade specific software required Windows.
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With all the horror stories I've seen of apple repairs it surprises me, but I do in fact know people who like the hardware.
Personally the only concept I like from what I've seen on apple laptops are those magnetic AC adapter plugs.
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Personally the only concept I like from what I've seen on apple laptops are those magnetic AC adapter plugs.
I also like the MagSafe connectors, but ever since Apple adopted USB-C they're history. On the other hand I'm pretty satisfied with the MacBook Pro 16 I got last October. I works well and the keyboards are back to normal.
And for all of you bitching about the price...yeah, they are expensive. Have your employer pay for them. If you are self-employed and you still can't afford them you're not making enough.
Re: No native Linux either. (Score:2, Informative)
"but ever since Apple adopted USB-C"
USB-C sucks ass for charging, and I can tell you from personal experience. Mag-safe or an old fashioned barrel charger is far more reliable, as there is much less to wear out and the contacts are much bigger. USB-C also has the added danger of easily developing a resistance point which leads to overheating and fire. I cringe when I think about the high wattage being sent through those tiny contacts.
I've had to deal with many USB/USB-C ports getting finiky or stop
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And for all of you bitching about the price...yeah, they are expensive. Have your employer pay for them. If you are self-employed and you still can't afford them you're not making enough.
Unless you have a need for OS X... why?
If you're in the Apple ecosystem and want to stay there, great, but if you're going to run Linux, BSD, (or, hey, Windows), or whatever else, buying Apple hardware is a giant waste of money.
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but if you're going to run Linux, BSD, (or, hey, Windows), or whatever else, buying Apple hardware is a giant waste of money.
Buy what is appropriate to your needs, right? My employers need me to have a system that can support a multitude of platforms and has native tools that support various flavors of Linux and BSD development, and remote support of all manner of systems including WIndows servers. My MacBook Pro works well for this. If you want to save a few bucks and spend the time to throw something together that does the same that go right ahead. I won't judge you.
And yes, the ecosystem. I do use Apple AirPlay to pipe musi
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Hundreds of people.
Meanwhile, the silent millions just get on doing work...
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Because it's a nice laptop? Sure, it's more expensive than the laptops that are nearly as nice. But often you already have the Mac, and it's less expensive than buying a second laptop.
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So? (Score:3)
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Some of us paid the "Apple tax" in order to have options, as well as pretty good hardware. We aren't abandoning macOS, but we may have Windows and Linux shit we need to do too.
Anyone who buys a Macbook specifically to run Linux is a tool, and doing it wrong. The amount of shit you have to do just to get the wireless and audio working on any Macbook from 2016 on is ridiculous.
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My dad had one of those Power Mac 7300 "PC Compatible" versions that essentially had an Intel PC-on-a-stick inside of it. That was some crazy hardware hackery, but it worked pretty damn good.
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trying to convince me that Skylake has sooooo many QA issues, apple just couldn't handle it, yet strangely not a peep from HP, Dell, Lenovo, or any of the other shippers of a quarter of a billion Skylake devices
Unlike Dell, they're holding those Skylakes wrong.
"A bad dancer blames her skirt."
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ARM will be a fun tech nerd playground, what are you on about? the other OS, even windows, will or have ARM flavors, just a new exciting era.
In the meantime, for the next five years just think of all the great used x86 mac gear to be had.
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Definitely. ARM has been making enough inroads in consumer stuff that Microsoft actually make an ARM version of Windows. Now Apple's going to let us use the ARM macOS they've been maintaining in their basement for the last ten years.
If Microsoft releases an actually purchasable version of ARM Windows for third party machines, maybe Intel and AMD will be threatened enough to regard it as actual competition.
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Don't have the points to undo the unjust modding, so all I can do is agree.
For a company which owns so much of the profit in consumer computer sales (volume without profit is a losing battle) their extreme closed garden and vertical integration makes them a more dangerous monopoly than Microsoft ever were.
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