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This is Apple's Roadmap for Moving the First Macs Away from Intel (arstechnica.com) 383

Posted by msmash from the no-intel-inside dept.
After 15 years, Apple will again transition the Mac to a new architecture. The company announced at its developer conference today that it will introduce Macs featuring Apple-designed, ARM-based processors similar to those already used in the iPhone and iPad. From a report: Tim Cook pegged this switch as one of the four biggest transitions the mac has ever had. Alongside the more to PowerPC, the move to Intel, and the transition to Mac OS X, ARM will be one of the biggest mac changes ever. Apple is promising "a whole new level of performance" with a "Family of Mac SoCs." The transition to ARM from x86 means that some apps will be native and some won't. For mac OS 10.16, Apple says that all of the Apple 10.16 apps are native ARM apps. Xcode developers can "just open their apps and recompile" to get an ARM binary. "Universal 2" is a new type of binary that will run on Intel and ARM macs. Microsoft Office and Adobe's creative suite (Photoshop) were demoed as native ARM apps. Final Cut Pro has an ARM version too, along with a features that run on the "Neural Engine" in the Apple SoC.

Apple says it wants to make sure users can run all their apps on their ARM mac, even if they aren't native. So, just like with the PowerPC-to-Intel transition, Apple is dusting off the Rosetta brand with Rosetta 2, which is now an x86-to-ARM emulator. This move has been predicted for years, as the upsides for Apple are clear. Cupertino has always valued tight integration of hardware, software, and services, but Macs have been outliers among Apple's products in their reliance on an outside party for the CPU. (iPhones and other Apple products do contain display panels, modems, and camera components made by other companies, though.) So far, Apple's chip division has excelled in every market it has entered. In the world of smartphones, the company's SoCs are easily a generation ahead of the best Qualcomm, Samsung, and Mediatek have to offer. Apple's most dominant smartphone showing is probably the iPhone SE, a $400 iPhone that will out-perform $1200 Android phones thanks to the A13 Bionic SoC.
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This is Apple's Roadmap for Moving the First Macs Away from Intel More

This is Apple's Roadmap for Moving the First Macs Away from Intel

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  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday June 22, 2020 @02:51PM (#60213582)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by psergiu ( 67614 )

      Yup, except for applications that do JIT. I guess that Java JRE will never get ported to ARM.

    • Re:Rosetta is not an emulator. (Score:4, Informative)

      by catmistake ( 814204 ) on Monday June 22, 2020 @03:20PM (#60213754) Journal

      Rosetta recompiles code for the target architecture. There is no emulation.

      -jcr

      No, it does not recompile anything, and yes it is an emulator. Rosetta does not access source code, it translates binaries. The code translation is considered emulation.

      • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday June 22, 2020 @03:37PM (#60213852)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          This not what a compiler is, it never was what a compiler is, and no matter how many times you ignorantly pronounce it, it will never be what a compiler is.

          There is not such thing as "compiling" an executable binary to another executable binary. There is another term for that which you would know if you weren't some douche pretending to be an expert on /,

      • Translation from one code into another is what a compiler does. One of them being a human-optimized one and one being a computer-optimized one is a rather new narrowing of the definition, that is not used by e.g. the dragon books, and that we should not support, as it limits our thinking and possibilities.

        E.g. you compjle macro assembly to assembly and assembly to CISC machine language and the CPU compiles it to a RISC machine language. WebAssembly gets compiled too. And SVG can be compiled to PDF, despite

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Rosetta recompiles code for the target architecture. There is no emulation.

        -jcr

        No, it does not recompile anything, and yes it is an emulator. Rosetta does not access source code, it translates binaries.

        No, the Intel binary is the source code in this case. Just as assembly language generated from C code is also source code. Its just fed into a different tool, an assembler, rather than a C/C++ compiler.

        JIT -- Just in time compilation works on a binary and it is compilation not emulation. What Rosetta is doing is a smarter version of JIT.

        The code translation is considered emulation.

        No. Emulation is more of a "simulation" of an OS API, hardware like ports, a CPU instruction set, etc. To emulate Windows on an Intel Mac you only need to emulate the fir

        • On top of that, Apple introduced the ability to upload LLVM IR to the AppStore and allow final machine translation at down load. Those Apps will be native from day one.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      It does not "recompile" as it does not have access to source code.

      Also, it does runtime translation when required, as an emulator does.

      If you're going to whine about the definition of a word, at least has some of the facts on your side.

      • Oh kid. In our times, *everything* was source code. Machine language was originally designed to be entered by humans with paper media or even switches too. (And watch the blinkenlights.)

        I recommend Computerphile on YouTube. They've got really great information on those times, from the first computers and personally meeting von Neumann, to today.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • It does not "recompile" as it does not have access to source code.

        Source code need not be the human readable code we know and love. It need not be the original author's work. Assembly language generated by a C/C++ compiler is also source code. So is binary. It all depends on the tool it is being fed into, C/C++/Swift compiler, assembler, JIT compiler, etc.

        Also, it does runtime translation when required, as an emulator does. If you're going to whine about the definition of a word, at least has some of the facts on your side.

        And you know what the "runtime translation" is called? Just In Time Compilation.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It doesn't recompile the app. It doesn't have the source code, it can't.

      It translates the x86 instructions into ARM instructions. There will be some optimization for common sequences that popular compilers generate, but overall it won't be nearly as efficient as starting from the source code. No where near native performance.

  • Yay for Cheap Used Intel Macs !
    The soon-to be useless and cheap Intel MacPros can run Linux juuust perfectly :)

    • Yay for Cheap Used Intel Macs !
      The soon-to be useless and cheap Intel MacPros can run Linux juuust perfectly :)

      So can the new ones. They showed it doing just that, as part of their Virtualization demo.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      One hopes that Apple keeps the *nix subsystem for macs. For most stuff, it is the *nix tools that makes the mac the perfect hybrid computer. Emacs, LaTex, the python and other code. The other concern is how fast the new computers are. Xcode is a bear, and barely runs on the 8 core fast Intel chips. I am not worried about the transition. Apple is an expert at it. And one of big issues last time, the ports, is of no concern now. Apple is using pretty standard ports like USB C. Of course, I am no longer

  • AMD is quickly chipping away at the high end chip market. AMD also has the console market locked up. Now Apple is working on the laptop and, eventually, desktop market with ARM. Not important in and of itself, but if they can squeeze comparable performance out of the ARM architecture, it will be enticing for Microsoft to push ARM based Windows further than it already is.

    If Intel's bottom line starts taking a hit, expect them to be flexing their huge patent portfolio sooner rather than later.

    • ...it will be enticing for Microsoft to push ARM based Windows further than it already is.

      By "enticing", do you mean steal that many more CPU cycles to drive that many more channels of Telemetry?

      Sorry, but in the era of fast-enough i7s, cheap RAM and SSDs, I'm struggling to understand why Microsoft needs to make Windows faster, since abusive user data mining is exactly what made it slower.

      If Intel's bottom line starts taking a hit, expect them to be flexing their huge patent portfolio sooner rather than later.

      Everyone's bottom line is taking a hit right now, but if companies think they're going to flex their legal anything anytime soon, think again. Take a number and get in the back of the COVID-19 line. Our lega

      • I'm struggling to understand why Microsoft needs to make Windows faster,

        Seriously? You don't think improving efficiency, saving power and reducing waste is worth it?

        Today, data centers use about 2% [energy.gov] of the total energy consumption in the United States. Given those kind of loads, and the fact that cloud use is only going up, I'd think reducing power consumption by even a few percent is absolutely worth it.

    • AMD still needs to learn to support their customers and developers If they figure that out they will be unstoppable.

    • It's bad news for everyone except Apple.
      Up next is an Apple CPU with HW encrypted executables that you can't disable, encoding only available from Cupertino.
      Want to make an Apple app? Pay the fee.

      • SEP (Score:2)

        by JBMcB ( 73720 )

        They could have done that already with the SEP built into Macs since 2017. Why haven't they?

      • Want to make an Apple app? Pay the fee.

        Isn't this already the case?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by fyngyrz ( 762201 )

        It's bad news for everyone except Apple.

        There will be some bad news for them as well; some people won't stay with Apple. I know I certainly won't.

  • and how slow will windows VM's be? and app store lock in???

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by JDeane ( 1402533 )

      In comparison to X86-64 desktop chips, ARM emulation is going to be a bit slower, Windows will probably run fine and basic apps, but games? I don't think it will be a good experience.

      Native apps for ARM should be nice though, Apple is doing it's Apple thing.

      I feel like the transition is going to be rough for Apple people, but in a few years when everything is ported and running natively they probably will enjoy fast, quiet and efficient PC's.

      Should make syncing to an iPhone easy? (I only own one Apple produ

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by teg ( 97890 )

        In comparison to X86-64 desktop chips, ARM emulation is going to be a bit slower, Windows will probably run fine and basic apps, but games? I don't think it will be a good experience.

        Native apps for ARM should be nice though, Apple is doing it's Apple thing.

        I feel like the transition is going to be rough for Apple people, but in a few years when everything is ported and running natively they probably will enjoy fast, quiet and efficient PC's.

        Should make syncing to an iPhone easy? (I only own one Apple product an Apple TV 4K box thing)

        They did actually demo "Shadow of the Tomb raider" running under Rosetta2 - it looked surprisingly good and smooth. I've never played that game, so I don't know how it compares to running on e.g. a current iMac.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by JDeane ( 1402533 )

          Hmmm maybe if they got some GPU action in there somehow.... That's pretty amazing to be honest.

          I am trying to wrap my brain around that, but I just can't imagine how... I have some theories but they are uneducated guesses at best lol

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Guspaz ( 556486 )

            It was the Mac version, leveraging Metal, Apple's low-level graphics API (which is used on both iOS and macOS). The way that these OS-level emulation things usually work is that only the application code is emulated, and any system call ends up in native code.

          • Jut stuff a shitload of cores, GHz, pipelones, caches, bus bandwidths and buffers in there.

            The efficiency of ARM will be gone (or maybe it never was there), but at least the architecture has less legacy cruft... I guess.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          They selected that game because it's mostly bound by the GPU. Having a slower CPU won't kill the frame rate.

        • > They did actually demo "Shadow of the Tomb raider" running under Rosetta2 - it looked surprisingly good and smooth. I've never played that game, so I don't know how it compares to running on e.g. a current iMac.

          Smooth is 120+ FPS.
          30 FPS is not.

          It _might_ have been 60 FPS but it hard to tell without further analysis.

          Its too bad Apple decided to omit the average framerate and frame time on a current gen Mac and how it performed on Apple Silicon.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by rho ( 6063 )

            If they knew it was running at a crazy framerate, they would mention it. That they didn't tells you what you need to know: it's running around 30fps, which is good enough for a video demonstration. Still, that's not too shabby.

            I'm actually pretty excited about this move. It would be nice if this translated into cheaper products, or at least products at the same price with better default specs for RAM and disk, but I'm not a fool. Apple will most likely pocket the difference.

    • From what I saw, Windows will be plenty snappy, as if anyone cares.

      And there will be no App Store lock-in. Or else they wouldnâ(TM)t need a new version (Universal 2) if their dual-platform Packaging format, nor their absolutely kickass Rosetta 2 translator. The App Storeâ(TM)s âoeBitcodeâ Distribution system would just handle all that at Download time.

      You Haters just need to all STFU on thus one. Apple is about to put every other platform in the dust.

      Seriously.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Guspaz ( 556486 )

      They showed Linux running in VMs. It was probably an ARM version, but there's an ARM version of Windows 10 too. They also demonstrated Maya and the latest Tomb Raider game running under x86 emulation, and performance seemed good.

  • will pro workstions not have pci-e based Apple GPUs?? and no pci-e slots?

  • and Imac pro / mac pro level systems?

    • Tim Cook claimed they will also be offering, and even designing nee, Intel-based systems for a long time to come.

      • I wouldn’t invest in a new Intel Mac unless/until we hear something more concrete regarding just how long OS support will be guaranteed.

        Tim Cook gave an estimated transition window of two years. As I recall, Steve Jobs made similar vague assurances about future PowerPC support “for years to come” when he announced the transition to Intel. In practice they dropped PPC support as quickly as they could get away with without technically lying. Two years still qualifies as “years to come

  • I want to learn more about the new virt tech (Score:4, Interesting)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Monday June 22, 2020 @03:01PM (#60213646)

    Apple announced new virtualization technology that'll be part of "Big Sur". They specifically talked (briefly) about having a Linux VM; but I'll be curious to see what other OSes are supported. Will you be able to run an older version of macOS, for instance?

    I can't imagine Parallels or VMware is happy about this announcement, although a lot will depend on how well Apple's system works, and how adaptable it is. Google Maps didn't go away just because Apple started offering its own Maps. Heck, for all we know right now, this might just be a rebranded and somewhat tweaked version of VirtualBox.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kenh ( 9056 )
      I would like to run VMS on my MacBook, will that be a supported option from Apple? What about Plan 9? Perhaps the PICK operating system will finaly get the attention it so richly deserved.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by teg ( 97890 )

      Apple announced new virtualization technology that'll be part of "Big Sur". They specifically talked (briefly) about having a Linux VM; but I'll be curious to see what other OSes are supported. Will you be able to run an older version of macOS, for instance?

      I can't imagine Parallels or VMware is happy about this announcement, although a lot will depend on how well Apple's system works, and how adaptable it is. Google Maps didn't go away just because Apple started offering its own Maps. Heck, for all we know right now, this might just be a rebranded and somewhat tweaked version of VirtualBox.

      They did actually demo a Linux VM running in Parallels. Not sure if that was running on emulation or native.

    • Apple already has a hypervisor [apple.com] built into macOS. I imagine that it's an extension of this.

  • Oh, My! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NoMoreACs ( 6161580 ) on Monday June 22, 2020 @03:04PM (#60213658)

    When you watch the WWDC Keynote, keep in mind that they are running their demos on their Development Platform, consisting of a Mac mini with a motherboard with an A12Z SoC.

    Thatâ(TM)s the same SoC used in the new $300 iPad.

    Apple is going to walk away from everyone else, performance-wise on Macs, just like they already have with phones and tablets.

    And yes, they have both x86 (and x64?) and Virtualization covered quite well, thank you!

    AAPL stock price is up another almost $8.00 on this news, BTW.

    Suck it, Haters!!!

    • I've got one of those new $300 ipads. It uses an A10 Fusion, which is two generations behind. And yes, I knew this when I bought it.

      The ipad mini and ipad air use A12 chips. The Pro uses an A12Z. But the Pro is an $800 tablet.

      • The ipad mini and ipad air use A12 chips. The Pro uses an A12Z. But the Pro is an $800 tablet.

        I stand corrected, sorry.

        But it is still running in an iPad, with all the power and thermal constraints that implies.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          But the Mac mini in the development system doesn't have "all the power and thermal constraints" implied by the iPad Pro.

          You're trying to suggest that a $300 iPad is as powerful as modern Intel desktops and there's multiple reasons why that is not the case, from getting the iPad wrong to failing to consider thermal differences. Not to mention, of course, that there was no performance evidence presented at all.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Unlikely. The reason x86 is so fast it's that the complex instructions lend themselves to on the fly optimization in CPUs with lots of resources.

      ARM is more suited to efficiency, with simpler instructions that require less decoding and less hardware to execute.

      Beware benchmarks showing competitive performance, they are designed to mislead.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      "And yes, they have both x86 (and x64?) and Virtualization covered quite well, thank you!"

      They demo'ed it and announced their intentions. "Quite well" will need to be seen, you sound like SuperKendall here. Very bad look.

      The most interesting thing is that they've chosen to promote the transition based solely on performance. Also, "ARM" did not appear anywhere.

      Finally, they announced iPhone and iPad apps will run natively and have App Store access, but it is not clear through what mechanism. It appeared

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Njovich ( 553857 )

      Apple is going to walk away from everyone else, performance-wise on Macs, just like they already have with phones and tablets.

      Where do you get your benchmarks, Apple marketing material? Qualcomms Snapdragon 865 outperforms a13 on most benchmarks. They come close enough, but on Macs they have to compete with the likes of Ryzen + Vega. Apple is of course a hugely capable company, but we'll see if they can deliver on that.

  • They'll likely continue to make a lot of money, more money than even whole groups of PC companies, selling their ARM-based machines. And for many many users they won't notice any difference in the jump. However I suspect that corporate users will likely move away from Macs, after embracing them for the last decade or so. I know a lot of people that bought Mac laptops because they were tired of dealing directly with Windows problems, but they still wanted and needed to run certain Windows-only software pac

    • I know a lot of people that bought Mac laptops because they were tired of dealing directly with Windows problems, but they still wanted and needed to run certain Windows-only software packages. The Intel macs were a boon for these people. With that advantage going away, I think a lot of them will just go back to Windows, which although still a horrible experience, is much better than it used to be.

      They showed Linux running under Parallels. Why do you think that Windows won't run?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by caseih ( 160668 )

        Are you implying that x86 Windows running in Parallels via Rosetta 2 is going to be a full-performance, robust solution? I'm very skeptical. Even the best dynamic translators incur a performance penalty. It used to be 1/3 the speed of native, but the technology has improved greatly in the last 20 years. I still expect a 50% slowdown. You have knowledge that performance is greater than 75% of native?

  • When Apple saw it could charge more for an iPhone than a base model MacBook, this transition was inevitable. Besides, it will simplify the code base, as Apple looks to fold the iOS and OS X platforms. The real question is what will be the technical win to distract from many will see as paying $2 Grand for a flip iPhone with a 14" retina display and full-size keyboard? Battery life? Performance?

    • You mean small keyboard.

      They are far from full-sized (like a desktop keyboard). In every of the three dimensions.

      Besides: Where are the split keyboards, Apple? Our hands do not grow out of our bellies, you know?

  • I hear it is one louder. https://www.macrumors.com/2020... [macrumors.com]

  • Seriously, I haven't seen OS this buggy since maybe Windows 98. Every time the entire OS crashes unexpectedly (which is a lot) I'm wondering if it's actually going to boot again. Every update seems to make it run slower and introduce new, even more creative bugs (for example I have to now unplug all external monitors or the boot process will get stuck on some invisible alert window). It also looks like use cases common on all the other OSes since at least 20 years are still a big mystery to Apple. When on m

  • Makes me sad (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bogie ( 31020 ) on Monday June 22, 2020 @03:17PM (#60213736) Journal

    Been a Mac user for a very long time now. Dont relish the thought of seeing the OS turning into a Freemium superhighway where you get nothing but crappy apps with ads from devs hoping youâ(TM)ll move on to their Pro version for $9 a month. X86 was the only thing keeping some of that garbage out of there which is an odd thing to say. Plus does completely unrestricted homebrew really have a future? Maybe Iâ(TM)m just being a big baby who doesnâ(TM)t like change. I guess weâ(TM)ll see.

  • So Macs will finally stop being PCs... (Score:3)

    by BAReFO0t ( 6240524 ) on Monday June 22, 2020 @03:31PM (#60213812)

    Personal Computers.

    And join the assortment of jewelry with accidentially included electronics. ;)

  • I'm sure there are enough differences that you wouldn't be able to do so, but it would be awesome if we could use a Raspberry Pi as a Hackintosh.

  • Intel has a choice: Innovate, or litigate? Which is easier, and which would you do?

    Though they probably know Apple has a lawyer army.

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