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Apple Has a Putin Problem (fastcompany.com) 162

harrymcc writes: New legislation in Russia -- known as the 'law against Apple' -- mandates that smartphone makers must preinstall government apps that will give authorities access to an array of information about the phone's user. Apple, not surprisingly, is trying to wriggle its way out of complying. But whatever happens, it's another case of an authoritarian government pushing around a U.S. tech company for very un-democratic reasons. Over at Fast Company, Josh Nadeau reports on the issue and why the stakes are so high.
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Apple Has a Putin Problem

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  • "Government apps" (Score:5, Interesting)

    by guacamole ( 24270 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @03:56PM (#59668864)

    There was no such thing mentioned in the law as "government apps". The law was passed explicitly to promote Russian app developers and the IT sector. They're probably talking about things like yandex or rambler mail, maps, and social networks like vk or odnoklasniki.

  • Sad (Score:5, Interesting)

    by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:00PM (#59668882)
    This story is not about Apple particularly insofar as I can see. But between China and Russia, that's an awful lot of people backsliding into totalitarianism. I get that China already was, but all their newfound technology, wealth, and urbanization is opening so many new doors to carry out this ideology. Pretty much exactly according to dystopian sci-fi.

    And globalization seems to be kicking into reverse gear, with distrust (see also: Huawei), tariffs, and incompatible government demands from all quarters, and national firewalls for the Internet. NATO eroding, Brexit happening.

    It's weird, in the late 90's everything seemed headed in the opposite direction. Bringing democracy to China through capitalism does not seem to have worked like we hoped.

    • Capitalism is not a democratic thing. The end result is a civilisation of poor and disaffected bring ruled by a filthy rich few.

      Which describes China perfectly.

      • Re: Sad (Score:5, Insightful)

        by alvinrod ( 889928 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @05:14PM (#59669154)

        The end result is a civilisation of poor and disaffected bring ruled by a filthy rich few.

        History would disagree with you. The capitalist Western democracies have been among the most prosperous nations whereas the communist nations of the same era have either collapsed or transitioned to mixed economies. China is precisely most prosperous in the areas which allow the greatest degree of economic freedom.

        Which describes China perfectly.

        Whereas under Mao, China was a society of peers that were all immensely wealthy?

        I never can understand people who remark the corporations have too much power concentrated into them, who in turn wish to replace this with a system of government which represents an even greater concentration of power. Do you think that the same avaricious types you lament for lining the board room or filling the C-level positions at corporations aren't exactly the same type that would attempt to seize the reins of an even more powerful government? There's a reason that communist countries devolve into totalitarian hellholes. Venezuela is a recent example where something like a tenth of the population has fled the country in recent years to avoid starvation. Odd that the daughter of their former president is immensely wealthy [msn.com] in a country so impoverished.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by MrNaz ( 730548 )

          "History would disagree with you."
          If by "history" you mean "the first two centuries after the founding of the USA". But there's more to "history" than 1776 - 1976 in North America. And things in the USA today are VERY different from just a decade or two ago.

          a) Singapore is a capitalist economy. It is not democratic.
          b) Russia reorganized its economy around generally capitalist principles, but simply transferred the mechanism of dominance from political structures to rule by overwhelmingly powerful economic e

        • Re: Sad (Score:4, Informative)

          by MrNaz ( 730548 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @06:02PM (#59669348) Homepage

          "I never can understand people who remark the corporations have too much power concentrated into them, who in turn wish to replace this with a system of government which represents an even greater concentration of power."

          Ok let me explain it to you. A formal government is given power willingly by the people. In exchange (in theory), that government will be made up of representative, each of which is elected by their region. In addition, the executive head is voted in, again by the people.

          The concentration of power is managed by the three arms:
          1. Legislature (directly elected, and so represent "the people") who make the rules.
          2. The executive who are tasked by the people with applying them as they are (but are not allowed to change them).
          3. Judiciary, who ensure that the legislature always makes rules that are aligned with the constitution and also that the executive only ever applies the rules as they are without overreach.

          These three arms act as interlocking checks, to ensure that the specific rule that are made align with the fundamental principles that we all agree on (the constitution), that the executive behaves itself, and that there is always a recourse to an independent body if people in positions of power misbehave.

          However, this system of checks and balances is undermined when people with sufficient power from outside the government can bribe or blackmail the actual people in these positions into making decisions that are actually not in line with their role. This is what we are seeing today. Special interest groups influence congress into voting for laws that do not suit the people that they represent. They can also influence the executive into, let's call it, "selective enforcement". ANd with their power, they can hire expensive lawyers who can construct legal arguments to twist the law, and so the court, into doing whatever they say.

          At the moment at least, this malfunctioning government at least happens in the open. We have C-Span and a (supposedly) free press to inform us just how badly things are going.

          Now imagine all these shenanigans were to happen inside private board rooms, where board members are not elected but are appointed by the elite, where there is no C-Span, and where the media is shut out by heavily armed private security contractors.

          Just because the government system is malfunctioning, doesn't mean the concept of government is wrong. It just means the current implementation is broken and needs fixing. Replacing congress with boardrooms will make things far, far worse. Given how things are going, we're going to find that out the hard way.

      • Capitalism is not a democratic thing. The end result is a civilisation of poor and disaffected bring ruled by a filthy rich few.

        Which describes China perfectly.

        Are you seriously saying that capitalism is incompatible with democracy? Or did I read this wrong?

        Capitalism has it's issues, to be sure, but any other possible system has issues which are worse. Socialism depends on the government to distribute wealth and resources, which destroys the motive to produce wealth and ends up with everybody being poor (except for the select few "leaders" who can claim all the resources they wish). Such societies, like North Korea and Venezuela, are rife with poverty and star

        • by MrNaz ( 730548 )

          "Are you seriously saying that capitalism is incompatible with democracy? Or did I read this wrong?"

          Yes, you read that wrong. I said "capitalism is not a democratic thing". Perhaps that's ambiguous, but I was saying that just because a country has capitalism, that does not guarantee democracy. Take Singapore as an example. They have an economy very strongly aligned with capitalist principles, but it is most definitely not a democracy in anything but name. Capitalism is a great tool for the efficient structu

    • Re:Sad (Score:5, Interesting)

      by DesScorp ( 410532 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:31PM (#59668986) Journal

      It's weird, in the late 90's everything seemed headed in the opposite direction. Bringing democracy to China through capitalism does not seem to have worked like we hoped.

      It was always a fool's bet to believe that China would liberalize because of consumerism. Freedom makes fertile ground for Capitalism, but Capitalism alone makes no ground for freedom. Or anything else for that matter, save making money.

      The thinking in the West was "If we just give them access to iPhones, Lady GaGa, and Hollywood, then they'll be just like us!". Which completely ignores that different peoples have different cultures with different values. Just because we're willing to sell our souls for the latest gadget here doesn't mean the Chinese are the same way. They have an ancient culture that heavily values centers of authority. You're not going to wipe that away with the latest Xbox.

      • by GoTeam ( 5042081 )
        Correct, you won't wipe it away with the latest Xbox. You'll wipe it all away with the next Xbox!
      • You're not going to wipe that away with the latest Xbox

        Depends how many you drop and from how high up.

      • by Kjella ( 173770 )

        It was always a fool's bet to believe that China would liberalize because of consumerism. Freedom makes fertile ground for Capitalism, but Capitalism alone makes no ground for freedom. Or anything else for that matter, save making money.

        That's a rather simplistic view, trade relations has been a cornerstone of alliance building since forever. Mutual interests have often been the catalyst to work out our differences and create stronger bonds. Finding common ground even though it may be "trivial" like learning we like the same food, music etc. is often the foot in the door for diverse people to find together. Of course thousands of years of relative isolation isn't undone in a few decades with the Internet, but I think culture itself is unde

      • Capitalism alone makes no ground for freedom. Or anything else for that matter, save making money.

        It makes a lot of ground for reducing poverty.

        https://reason.com/2019/01/31/... [reason.com]

        Why has Hickel engaged in such statistical subterfuges and Edenic anthropological handwaving? Because he despises "free market capitalism" and wants to issue "a ringing indictment of our global economic system, which is failing the vast majority of humanity." Except, as we've seen, it is not. During the past two centuries, that system has lifted billions out of humanity's natural state of abject poverty, ignorance, and violence, and that process of economic uplift has dramatically accelerated in the past four decades.

      • The thought was that media promoting freedom as a value would promote freedom. But ha ha, they just demanded edited versions that don't promote freedom, and we gave them to them because greed. So the thought may well have been valid, but it was irrelevant.

    • Re:Sad (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:32PM (#59668988)

      Bringing democracy to China through capitalism does not seem to have worked like we hoped.

      We tried bringing democracy to China by freely trading with it, hoping the exposure to the fruits of our democratic and capitalistic system would stoke the fires of democracy within it. It hasn't worked.

      We tried bringing democracy to Cuba by cutting off trade and isolating it, hoping that being cut off from the fruits of our democratic and capitalistic system would cause it to give up its non-democratic system. It didn't work.

      I think it's about time we accepted that the only ways to spread democracy are

      • if the people themselves rise up and shed their blood in a revolution (e.g.France, the U.S.)
      • the country is conquered in a war, and the victors force democracy upon them (Germany, Japan)
      • the ruling power simply chooses to cede control (Great Britain and India; the Soviet bloc countries though not all of them became democratic)

      The first has some uncomfortable implications when it comes to foreign aid, refugee assistance, and a lax immigration policy - these things may actually be counter-productive to the goal of spreading democracy. They may do more harm than good by leeching off the very people most likely to rise in a revolution, thus allowing the regime they're fleeing to stay in power longer.

      • by GoTeam ( 5042081 )
        Very well put. You can't tell the citizens of another country to revolt and implement democracy. Even if democracy temporarily exists, it won't last. It would be disingenuous for me to say the citizens have to achieve their independence on their own. The United States would have a bit of a rougher road to independence without the help of France.

        As a foreign country, trying to decide when it is acceptable to step in and assist in a revolt is extremely difficult as shown by the second half of the 20th centu
      • by U0K ( 6195040 )
        Erm. Germany had democracy before 1945.
        It's just that Hitler's rise to power wiped away all that progress the Weimar Republic made within a couple of years.
        The Weimar Republic was a result of the loss in WW1 where they tried to reorganize the country from a constitutional monarchy into a republic, but not forced upon Germany by any external power.
        • by XXongo ( 3986865 )

          Erm. Germany had democracy before 1945.

          Germany's Weimar Republic democracy lasted until July 1933, when Hitler outlawed all parties except the Nazi party.

          • by U0K ( 6195040 )
            Well, yes. After all I wrote this sentence

            It's just that Hitler's rise to power wiped away all that progress the Weimar Republic made within a couple of years.

            After 1945 democracy was then forced and reinforced by some external powers - the Allies. By the Soviets, not so much.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      I agree. I remember the debate in the 80s about doing business with China, and the thinking went "where capitalism goes, democracy will follow." Well, we saw how that's turned out in both China and Russia. Xi and Putin are bent on becoming "leaders for life" and are putting the screws to their people more and more.

      If the post-Cold War years have taught me anything, it's that culture will always trump ideology. Ideology can change quickly in whatever direction the political winds blow, but culture is much mo

    • Re:Sad (Score:4, Interesting)

      by DNS-and-BIND ( 461968 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @06:11PM (#59669386) Homepage

      After June 4, 1989 it was blatantly obvious what China was.

      But a lot of wealthy people stood to make a ton of money if we started trading with them. So we did, and they got even richer. It ruined our working class by putting them in competition with slave labor, but who cares about those deplorables?

      And neither China nor Russia are totalitarian. They don't give a shit what you do in your spare time. They don't even care if you talk shit about the government. They only care if you start organizing people to start opposition.

      And let's not romanticize what we did to Russia in the 90s. Here's TIME magazine in 1996 bragging about how we interfered in the Russian election. [i.redd.it] Neoliberal shock therapy was horrible for Russia. The number of people living in poverty in the former Soviet Republics rose from 14 million in 1989 to 147 million in 1998. In the period from 1992 to 1998 Russia's GDP fell by half-something that did not happen even under during the German invasion in the Second World War. Under Yeltsin's tenure, the death rate in Russia reached wartime levels. David Satter, a senior fellow at the anti-communist, Washington DC-based Hudson Institute, writing in the conservative Wall Street Journal, described the consequences of this victory of Democracy: "Western and Russian demographers now agree that between 1992 and 2000, the number of 'surplus deaths' in Russia-deaths that cannot be explained on the basis of previous trends-was between five and six million persons."

    • But between China and Russia, that's an awful lot of people backsliding into totalitarianism.

      Backsliding? They've been there for years.

      Decades even.

    • Yup. It was worth a shot... trying to help guide the largest civilization in human history to develop into a western democracy. But it didn't work, and it's time to own up to that. China is now going to follow the path the USSR took - it'll coast up to a peak and then decline. For all of China's stated resolve to NOT follow the USSR, they're taking every opportunity to follow mostly the same path, with a few variations.

      As for the rest of the stuff you mention. Yeah, humanity is undergoing some sort of
  • Given Apple's resistence to government access to privacy... this is going to be one tough thing for them to fight. Given that this is not US, it's not Apple's place to "appeal" but rather just play or leave. Russia is an extremely rich market. If Apple has to bow out, they'll loose so good amount of marketshare.
    • ...or put the government mandated apps into a VM in the phone (optionally doing the same for all apps). That way, they all get to see each other, but don't get to see the crown jewels.

      Apple's policy of "no competing apps" would present more issues - if there's a russian mail app that needs to go on, then it competes with apple's mail client. They could possibly just play along and add a "connect to $russian mail provider" option in their own mail client though.

      As others have noted - Russia is just China's w

  • Just like most things surrounding technology, the lure of information is just too great. This has caused and will continue to cause further deterioration of any notion of individual privacy. Russia, perhaps not such a big deal but let's not forget we are a global economy with many cultural challenges that this is a huge part of. If Russia can and does do it, it is only a matter of time the justification comes in countries that, on the surface, seem to value privacy rights. I call this the lowest common
  • "Pre-installed approved apps". OK, but -who- is pre-installing them? The assumption is Apple right?
    If Apple starts selling iPhones with its own Apps removed and Russian apps installed when do they get updates?
    When iOS is updated, like the Apple Apps get them, or just as regular Apps?
    Does the law prevent Apple's iOS popping up warnings, like I started getting about Facebook with iOS13, reporting things like "this creepy app is tracking you all the time? Wanna switch off it's access to your location?"
    Apple ca

  • The ONLY reason they are complaining, is because it's work for them.
    They couldn't give less of a shit about the livestock, err, users.
    In fact, if it would make them money, they'd go around swinging "best Korea" flags.

    And because they know they can make their TrumPet throw a tantrum for them.

    Nevermind the TrumPet government mandating quite the same, except more covertly, because they still got a delusion to uphold, so the militant blackeyers keep defending them.

    Oh how Russia and China wish they had a populat

  • by holophrastic ( 221104 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @05:27PM (#59669210)

    We're finally back to understanding the reason that countries exist in the first place -- the reason that borders exist: I hate your laws, I'm drawing this line in this sand, and writing my own laws on this side of the line.

    Global corporations can't exist forever as they do now. You can't ever expect a global population to have the same laws, the same climates, the same cultures, the same taxes, the same anythings.

    That's what we're seeing here. We're seeing the impossibility of being the same company with the same products across different nationalities.

    • Agreed, same as we all countries don't have to be a democracy. You don't like it, stay on your side of the border, if people in the country don't like it they should leave (if they can of course) trying to force our own ideals and morals onto other countries and peoples is what starts wars.
    • We're finally back to understanding the reason that countries exist in the first place -- the reason that borders exist: I hate your laws, I'm drawing this line in this sand, and writing my own laws on this side of the line.

      Global corporations can't exist forever as they do now. You can't ever expect a global population to have the same laws, the same climates, the same cultures, the same taxes, the same anythings.

      That's what we're seeing here. We're seeing the impossibility of being the same company with the same products across different nationalities.

      And this is the fundamental dilemma for the CEO and Board of Directors of any Publicly-Held Corporation that does business internationally: Which "duty" do they violate? The one to the Shareholders; who in the most capitalistic, financially-hard-hearted sense, could care less about anything other than gross profits; or the one to their Mission Statement, which in the case of Apple includes a pledge to protect their Customers' privacy, a policy about which they seem quite serious?

      • That's easy. "public" company means mission statement be damned. "private" company is the mission statement only.

        But my point is this: one slave cannot serve two masters,
        or as my grandfather would say, you can't dance at two weddings with one ass.
        Now, to be fair, he's never clarified if "ass" is rear-end or donkey, but I think the point is the same either way.

        One corporation can't be governed by two regulators. Pick a country. If you want to work in two countries, you get to have two corporations.

  • What a cut-and-dried opportunity for virtue signalling. There are almost zero downsides to simply calling Putin's bluff. If Putin boots them out of Russia, Apple loses a few percent of their market share but they gain a massive reputational boost. They can absorb the loss, but increased sales from the positive press might even nullify the lost sales from Russia. It's not like some competitor will suddenly overtake Apple because they got a better slice of that sweet, sweet Russian smartphone market (/sarcasm
    • I find it astonishing that some people use the phrase "virtue signalling" to describe anybody trying to do something good for other people with no benefit to themselves. I've come to realize that these people simply have no concept of doing anything for anybody else, hence, they assume that everybody else is the same as them, and anybody doing anything for anybody else, really isn't being altruistic, but are scheming to get something more for themselves. That's pretty fucked up.

      It's kind of like when
  • Ten pallets of unmarked hundred dollar bills would conclusively solve this problem.

    https://www.groovewallet.com/w... [groovewallet.com]

  • Notice they don't need this law for any OEM besides Apple.

    Wonder why?

  • Russians are used to operating nalevo, to cheating their way around government restrictions. Ban secure iPhones, and people will go to the same lengths to get their hands on them as they did for Levis in Soviet times.

  • What about makers of Android-based phones? Are they also "trying to wriggle out of complying"? Or do they sheepishly do whatever Moscow orders?

  • It seems that corporations are able to interfere with governments at an ever increasing scale. It's a bit odd that governments are too scared to start fining them and seizing their assets.

    • by Shaitan ( 22585 )

      You pick an example of a corporation defending the people against government oppression to bitch about corporate interference in government? I'm guessing NOBODY is letting you pick the cases they appeal to the supreme for their flagship causes.

      In the US corporations have been standing up to governments for as long as there have been corporations. By and large this has been to the good, such as in this case. The bad times are when corporations comply with governments or worse operate under their direction.

      Th

  • by Shaitan ( 22585 ) on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:47PM (#59670036)

    This is bad, caving to Putin is obviously worse than the US but our own government is pushing Apple for much the same thing, demanding a backdoor.

  • So for me, this is a win-win situation.

  • "But whatever happens, its another case of an authoritarian government pushing around a U.S. tech company for very un-democratic reasons."

    This has nothing to do with Apple being a US company. If Nokia was still king Putin would have done the same with them.

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