France Will Tax Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon In New Year (qz.com) 138
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Quartz: France won't wait on the rest of the European Union to start taxing big tech. French finance minister Bruno Le Maire says the country will move ahead with a new tax on Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon starting Jan. 1, 2019. The tax is expected to raise $570 million in 2019. France and Germany had originally pushed for an EU-wide 3% tax on big tech firms' online revenues, in part to prevent companies like Apple from sheltering their profits in countries with the lowest tax rates. The deal, which required the support of all 28 EU states, appeared to crumble earlier this month, with opposition from countries including Ireland, home to the European headquarters of Google and Apple.
France and Germany attempted to salvage the deal by scaling it back to a 3% tax on ad sales from tech giants. That would effectively limit the tax to Google and Facebook, excluding companies like Airbnb and Spotify that might have been harder hit under the initial proposal. In the meantime, France is moving ahead with its own tax on Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon, which are collectively known in the region as GAFA. "The tax will be introduced whatever happens on 1 January and it will be for the whole of 2019 for an amount that we estimate at [$570 million]," Le Maire said at a press conference in Paris, the Guardian reported today (Dec. 17).
France and Germany attempted to salvage the deal by scaling it back to a 3% tax on ad sales from tech giants. That would effectively limit the tax to Google and Facebook, excluding companies like Airbnb and Spotify that might have been harder hit under the initial proposal. In the meantime, France is moving ahead with its own tax on Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon, which are collectively known in the region as GAFA. "The tax will be introduced whatever happens on 1 January and it will be for the whole of 2019 for an amount that we estimate at [$570 million]," Le Maire said at a press conference in Paris, the Guardian reported today (Dec. 17).
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They they are slightly worse off than the US for national debt... of course in france they are trying to raise revenues, in the US we are lowering revenues and giving money back to millionaires...
So while they might be poor, they are doing something about it (boot straps!) where the US is hoping we are to big to fail ('Merica!)
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They all pay tax? If they don't, it is the tax system problem. Tax on revenue, not profit. Sales tax, too regressive, they say. Tax are not theft, the politicians are. They take money from you, distribute them to buy vote for the next election. You need more money? I will tax the rich and give it to you. So noble, like robin hood, which is a thief. Look at the USA, gas tax, road tax, license, vehicle registration ... all form of money due to support the US infrastructure, road are crumbling, bridge
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Re:france is broke (Score:5, Insightful)
They are not taxing the US at all. These corporation make money in France and pay very little tax there. It's not fair, and this new tax is a good starting point. These corporations will be free to avoid France if they don't like the tax.
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They are not taxing the US at all. These corporation make money in France and pay very little tax there. It's not fair, and this new tax is a good starting point. These corporations will be free to avoid France if they don't like the tax.
They are big enough that they just might do that at some point. Be careful what you wish for ...
Re: france is broke (Score:1)
They arent going to leave. Even paying higher taxes they will still make money.
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They are not taxing the US at all. These corporation make money in France and pay very little tax there.
Well, what one would say is... while Google earns money from French companies buying ads to display on their Google Search website: the amount the French authorities want to tax is an amount disproportionate to the amount of money Google makes in France. It looks like France wants to lay a tax on what amounts to 15% of their profit for the entire Europe, Middle-East, and Africa region.
These
Re:france is broke (Score:5, Informative)
not only their web site is accessed from France, but they sell advertisements to corporations and individuals based in France
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the amount the French authorities want to tax is an amount disproportionate to the amount of money Google makes in France
I disagree, given the so low tax rate to begin with.
Re: france is broke (Score:1)
I am not sure about google or Facebook, but I know France has a hefty VAT tax so makes a good chunk of change off every Apple product sold.
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Not sure if France has a better taxation system, but in Canada, corporations such as Netflix and Google are well known to avoid the VAT (GST/PST) because of loopholes. What they do is that they create a corporation called Netflix Canada, which is based in Canada and receive subsidies for TV/film production.
But the main service (the video streaming monthly subscription) is sold by Netflix USA/Luxembourgh/Whatever which claims has no physical presence in Canada and therefore doesn't have to charge/collect GST
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> they are doing something about it
Yes, they're working 35 hour weeks with 8 weeks of vacation; they're taxing the US instead of working.
They should be more like the Greatest President the World has EVER seen and watch more TV, spend more time on Twitter while on the shitter & the golf course and Make France Great Again.
And Americans won't be paying this tax, it'll be paid by a company making money from French citizens
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Vacation is around 30 days, give or take, that are 6 weeks.
As we have school holidays of about 12 weeks per year, actually more, those 6 weeks are badly needed.
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I'm proud of the work I do and what I create, and I'm proud of the US work ethic.
The people that built Google and made it great, so great that people in France who work 35 hours per week can't compete with it, deserve to reap the benefits.
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I'm proud of my work too, but I'm not going to kill myself, ruin my health, and ignore my family just to make a CEO up top a few million extra while they throw me a few thousand for my trouble. Ever seen Con Air -- love this scene with Steve Buscemi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Progressive lies.
Gets called out and told the truth.
Progress repeats SAME lie pretending he didn't get called out.
Gets called out second time for lying.
Progressive then gets upset and calls other people names for being called a liar twice for same lie and can't refute it.
And progressives are not sociopaths? You are a moron.
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Yes. The people that elected the state that caused the problem is going fix it by reelecting them again and again. That's the ticket.
There...
Re:france is broke (Score:5, Informative)
France seem to be literally broke, first carbon tax, that didn't work because people started yellow vest moment, well lets tax google and wholesale has money. Some serious desperation, Macrone and his grandma are marching to the guillotine
Google and the rest of these digital giants pay a 9.5 percent effective tax in the EU compared to 23.2 percent for traditional businesses. They can squeal all they want but a hike of 3% is not going to make me cry any rivers over Google's pain. I pay way more than a measly 9.5% of my income into the state's coffers. Counting indirect taxes, tolls and fees the state takes around half of my income in one form or another.
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Only 23% in Europe? My company in the netherlands has to pay around 40% in taxes on profit, only foreign companies that wish to setup a company in the netherlands get to pay less taxes.
I think the 23% is an average after all loop holes and tax avoidance schemes have been taken into account. Another thing to consider is that the large majority of companies are smaller companies who do not have the resources to avoid taxes like Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple and the likes can so they pull this average up. The big players pay way less taxes than small to medium businesses because they, unlike the little guys, can afford to hire entire financial services companies who dedicate themselves 24/7 t
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The big players pay way less taxes than small to medium businesses because they, unlike the little guys, can afford to hire entire financial services companies who dedicate themselves 24/7 to help the likes of Google to dodge taxes.
Bingo.... this is the problem (1) Legislators always want to carve out special exceptions and credits in the tax laws to benefit themselves, special interests that helped them, write in credits for activities they would like to encourage and penalties for activities they wou
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A tax on a corporation is a tax on its customers, not on its owners. The costs are always passed along. Not that I cry any tears for marketeers buying ads, either.
Fortunately for us in the US, bills of attainder are unconstitutional. You can't just tax someone you don't like, or because they have money. That was one of the specific things that led to the Revolutionary War (though the event that kicked it off was attempted confiscation of "assault weapons", as we'd call them today).
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A tax on a corporation is a tax on its customers, not on its owners. The costs are always passed along. Not that I cry any tears for marketeers buying ads, either.
Fortunately for us in the US, bills of attainder are unconstitutional. You can't just tax someone you don't like, or because they have money. That was one of the specific things that led to the Revolutionary War (though the event that kicked it off was attempted confiscation of "assault weapons", as we'd call them today).
They are not going after Google because Google is an American company that they don’t like. They are going after these corporations because they use public services but contribute next to nothing in return and what little they do pay in taxes they pay iin tax shelters and not the county where the profit is made. Critics of corporate taxation in the US have the exact same complaints of these same corporations over the same shenanigans.
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They're going after them because they have money, and France needs money. Don't confuse the reason with the sales pitch. Meh, I guess if you look at this as a tariff on digital goods, it's a fairly normal thing for a government to do.
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Google's customers are the ad buyers, and costs are passed along to them. When costs rise, they buy fewer ads, and the business doesn't do as well, so the taxes are also paid by the owners. As an owner of Google stock, France is taxing me.
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The costs are always passed along.
I'll cry for the Advertisers a bit later tonight once I'm done with my Dr Evil laugh.
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Rather convenient propaganda for wealthy people to say "oh don't tax us, you are only hurting the poor!" when there's an entire industry supporting corporations and their owners evading taxes.
It's simple. Tax the owners, not the corporation. There, done.
If the owners want to in any way get money from what they own, then they have to get a dividend or sell stock or something.
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The situation is a bit more complicated in France. Macron wanted to reform his country and the EU and bring capitalism back on track to reduce the national debt. He's more of a globalist as far as the EU goes and more of a protectionist as far as everything else goes.
He loosened the labour rights. He's for corporate tax cuts as well as in
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Macron and his grandma are marching to the guillotine
Quite the opposite: taxing the GAFA is something that the yellow vest movement has been asking for.
Re: And they will respond ... (Score:1, Funny)
Straight out of the Wealth Redistribution Handbook. Doomed to cause âoeunexpectedâ negative consequences for consumers.
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Bullshit.
You do business in a country, you pay tax in that country. Period.
Companies have been allowed to play shell games with where they claim the revenue is earned so they can pay as little tax as possible. But you can guarantee Google is making money off people in countries they aren't paying tax in.
The real wealth redistribution handbook is the bullshit playbook which makes sure the rich get richer, and the rest of us get poorer. It's time to stop fo
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Re:And they will respond ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that is what they may want. Europe in general has been lagging behind the United States in terms of online services. Most of EU biggest tech companies are Industrial Technology (Siemens, Phillips, etc...) The Consumer Technology companies have a hard time competing against the Facebook, Amazon and Google. Primarily because they are so big, they can offer so many services so cheap that new competition will need boat loads of money to even be a threat. So making these products more expensive, it will open the door slightly enough to get their foot in.
We are in a time of a renewed sense of nationalism (Which I don't think is a good thing). But not just the United States, but every freakin country in the world seems to doubling down, protecting what they have, and preventing the "other" from coming in either physically, or with taxes and extra rules.
I expect this comes from the last Recession, because of the countries interconnection in trade that means stupid stuff done in America or China which you as a citizen has no control over, will affect your lively hood, and your countries economy. Now this works both ways, when the other countries does something good, you will also get its benefit as well. But the world is kinda feeling the pain from the last recession, and trying to lock out those "others" out.
Tariffs (Score:3, Insightful)
So making these products more expensive, it will open the door slightly enough to get their foot in.
So Trump proposes tariffs to do the same thing and it is the most irresponsible idiotic thing any leader has ever proposed.
A socialist does it because his groups of friends has so destroyed the French economy they are desperate to get more money, and NOW its a smart idea?
That what you can love about progressives. They don't care if the idea is good or not, it only matters who proposes it.
Re: Tariffs (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, that is Republicans. Remember they were big big big on Free Trade and negotiated NAFTA but now suddenly they are toeing the Trump line even as it fails.
Actually, it is the Establishment, both Dem and GOP. It's only the outsiders like Trump and Bernie that are against globalism. Globalism at any cost is the core of the Establishment, because for the very richest, the richest 100 families, the only way for them to get richer is to have larger markets to dominate. Dozens of country-sized independent markets limit how rich you can get: you need to unite the world economy into 1 market to be the beneficiary of the race to the bottom.
Mainstream Democrats and Republicans agree on everything important: make globalism happen, so the very richest people in the world can get richer still.
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A socialist does it because his groups of friends has so destroyed the French economy ... always was.
About what century are you talking? The french economy is actually very strong
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I never stated in my post that I supported that plan. Actually I tried (and seemed to failed, or you just didn't want to comprehend) the fact that Frances actions are the Same driving force as Trumps actions. By placing a barrier to free trade in hoping that your group can somehow get ahead.
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If the taxing authorities go after the big tech companies hard enough, they will ultimately just abandon the markets trying to profit from their success. Think how great it'll be in France were Amazon/Google/Apple to abandon them--they would have to rely in China for tech and ultimately end up like N. Korea and Cuba with 20 year old technology and a thriving market for second- and third-hand smart phones.
When the taxes to do business in a market climb to a certain point, it's no longer profitable or worth
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What's wrong with 20-year old technology and second-hand smartphones? I'm of the opinion that 24/7/365 connectivity is actually harmful and doesn't add much to society. In fact, a cell phone is a tracking device. The problem with North Korea and Cuba isn't lack of cell phones; it's lack of other aspects of freedom.
The idea of a free low-tech society is fine with me. The corporations like Google? Screw 'em and good riddance if they leave -- their entire business model is to track, invade privacy, mine d
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I'm still waiting for this fairy tale to manifest.
Seriously, prices have very little to do with production costs. The costs are the bare minimum for the price, because selling under would mean that you incur a loss with every item sold, but that's it. The price of a product is where the seller expects the highest profit. You think those iPhones cost almost the 1200 bucks to make that they're asking? Please.
So unless those 3% tax put the production cost over the selling price, don't expect the price to chang
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Commodities are most of the market. They aren't priced like iPhones or Rolexes.
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No, but their calculation still follows the rule that the price is set at the point of the most profit, not "cost + a little bit".
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Fortunately selling user data in that manner is illegal in the EU. Good thinking!
They can rise prices, not sure how that works on their free services but okay. Anyway, if they jack up prices it just helps other services compete with them, so it's a win for us.
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Jean Valjean (Score:1)
That's what you do when you're poor with finances and desperate: Steal from those who are better at managing their resources, and then pretend to be righteous about it.
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Re: Jean Valjean (Score:2)
Well, the EU created the âoeSingle Marketâ without harmonising tax rules across the EU. So this is not only allowed, itâ(TM)s precisely what they wanted. Well, what they wanted before they anticipated the rise of the rise of the tech behemoths.
This is France trying to make and end run around EU rules. Theoretically, if Apple and Google were to take it up with the relevant EU authorities, they could win this one.
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That's what you do when you're poor with finances and desperate: Steal from those who are better at managing their resources, and then pretend to be righteous about it.
That's an extremely shortsighted view of the world. Firstly, almost every person would accept the need for some kinds of public goods. We probably shouldn't privatise the military. Nor things like safety regulation and the court system. And if we need some things as public goods, then we need to raise taxes to pay for them. How we do this in an equitable way is most certainly open for debate. Which brings us to the second point: Whether you believe in some kind of natural justice or divine order of things,
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The other problem with revenue tax is that a struggling business can be destroyed by it.
Perhaps not a problem for the scale they're talking about, but where I work we are -1 to +2 percent profitable every year.
A small revenue tax would put us under.
Note: we are a small business with a physical presence, so we're not really dodging.
Note 2: on the good year the profit tax is rough even and can make us cash flow negative.
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As a small business, our ownership leans progressive.
Private healthcare benefits large business hugely as they can create huge groups and get big discounts.
We want equal footing when competiting, that means no subsidies and universal healthcare (or at the very least all healthcare purchased through the marketplace and no discounts for big companies).
The price difference we pay for healtchcare vs a large company would go a long way towards good times for us.
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Yes, destroy us by leveling the playing field, exactly.
Taxes are almost irrelevant (since we pretty much break even, the owners basically have jobs because of the companies existence, nobody is making money not working), and terrible regulations like having healthcare? we did that anyway.
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It's almost like I was comparing a revenue tax vs a profit tax.
Our current state and locality does not have one, and no progressives are trying to make it happen.
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those who are better at managing their resources* are the ones that own the government. Why would steal from themselves?
* Is that what you call people who practice predatory lending and usury these days? Who's 'stealing' from whom?
GAFA (Score:2)
In my native language, GAFA” translates as THE BLUNDER”.
good intention but doing the wrong thing (Score:1)
good intention but doing the wrong thing
This will slow innovation (which I assume Google will use its wealth to create something sequential to human), and prolong human suffering. If we decide socialism is the right system, we need capitalism to be destroyed. You can't fight a system to reinforce itself, unless you push it to critical mass, and let it self destruct. When marginal profit is zero, capitalism collapse. We are not there yet, but we are ever closer. The dirty cheap silverware that I use for
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Doofus and dingus (Score:1, Insightful)
You fools! This won't be used to reduce the borrowing even a little bit. It will just be spent and the same amount of borrowing will occur!
Quit blaming companies when the problem is your voracious spending and voting habits!
Actually logical. Equal playing field rules (Score:5, Insightful)
Longterm, make EU close the loopholes that only profits big companies.
Any company that don't pay tax will of course be more successful than a company that has to pay tax.
Just like the USA (Score:3)
Facts & figures ... go ! (Score:1)
https://www.bfmtv.com/economie/combien-d-impots-paient-aujourd-hui-les-gafa-google-amazon-facebook-apple-uber-netflix-twitter-au-fisc-francais-1586463.html
G**gle declared for France earning of 325M€ and payed 14M€ tax that is 4.3% ratio over declared earnings.
But the total market of online advertisement in France is 2G€ and G**gle is credited of 90% marketshare there. So real earnings should be around 1.8G€ only for France.
See the article for the complete figures ... all the big ones hav
GAFA ... (Score:2)
So far I saw the term GAFA only on /.
I doubt it is a common term in any part of Europe.
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So far I saw the term GAFA only on /.
I doubt it is a common term in any part of Europe.
GAFA very common here in France, see it in mainstream press and on tech TV
Europe/invasion (Score:2)
As we never got to do it at the EU level (Score:3)
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Just like the DSA, Divided States of America!
Tu me fais rire aux éclats, Monsieur le Pr (Score:2)
How can the French Tax Office gauge and check all those companies' profits?
No way! Unless the big companies will friendly declare all their revenues.
Ah ah ah ah!
They will end up with a totally gratuitous lump sum, aka tarif forfaitaire.
You make me laugh out loud, Mr. President!
Re:Tu me fais rire aux éclats, Monsieur le Pr (Score:2)
Please, Mr. Slash Dot, notice the fine UTF-8 related bug I am showing up here!
Belgium will tax France (Score:2)
For every french fry sold at McDonald's.
Why the French like US tech (Score:1)
French bureaucrats create new taxes on tech.
Invest in the USA and enjoy new tech.
Invest in the France and help create a new tax.
Targeted taxes? (Score:2)
I wonder if my town can level a tax on just the grocery store and hardware store? Or can they tax the auto parts store on the East side of Main Street, but not the one on the west side? The sandwich shop, not the burger place? Can you create a tax on select individuals? Mark, but not Bill?
I suspect the answer is yes in all cases, but that you just don't write it that explicitly in the legislation.
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What's success? Europeans on average have longer life expectancy, better services, more vacation, and generally happier lives. Per-capita GDP isn't the only appropriate measurement of a country's success.
The yellow vests? At least the French have TIME to protest and their police and military aren't vile enough to pull Kent State II (as would happen if there were mass protests in the USA).