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DRM Movies Apple

'It's Always DRM's Fault' (publicknowledge.org) 172

A social media post from Anders G da Silva, who accused Apple of deleting movies he had purchased from iTunes, went viral earlier this month. There is more to that story, of course. In a statement to CNET, Apple explained that da Silva had purchased movies while living in Australia, with his iTunes region set to "Australia." Then he moved to Canada, and found that the movies were no longer available for download -- due, no doubt, to licensing restrictions, including restrictions on Apple itself. While his local copies of the movies were not deleted, they were deleted from his cloud library. Apple said the company had shared a workaround with da Silva to make it easier for him to download his movies again. Public Knowledge posted a story Tuesday to weigh in on the subject, especially since today is International Day Against DRM. From the post: To that rare breed of person who carefully reads terms of service and keeps multiple, meticulous backups of important files, da Silva should have expected that his ability to access movies he thought he'd purchased might be cut off because he'd moved from one Commonwealth country to another. Just keep playing your original file! But DRM makes this an unreasonable demand. First, files with DRM are subject to break at any time. DRM systems are frequently updated, and often rely on phoning home to some server to verify that they can still be played. Some technological or business change may have turned the most carefully backed-up and preserved digital file into just a blob of unreadable encrypted bits.

Second, even if they are still playable, files with DRM are not very portable, and they might not fit in with modern workflows. To stay with the Apple and iTunes example, the old-fashioned way to watch a movie purchased from the iTunes Store would be to download it in the iTunes desktop app, and then watch it there, sync it to a portable device, or keep iTunes running as a "server" in your home where it can be streamed to devices such as the Apple TV. But this is just not how things are done anymore. To watch an iTunes movie on an Apple TV, you stream or download it from Apple's servers. To watch an iTunes movie on an iPhone, same thing. (And because this is the closed-off ecosystem of DRM'd iTunes movies, if you want to watch your movie on a Roku or an Android phone, you're just out of luck.)

[...] My takeaway is that, if a seller of DRM'd digital media uses words like "purchase" and "buy," they have at a minimum an obligation to continue to provide additional downloads of that media, in perpetuity. Fine print aside, without that, people simply aren't getting what they think they're getting for their money, and words like "rent" and "borrow" are more appropriate. Of course, there is good reason to think that even then people are not likely to fully understand that "buying" something in the digital world is not the same as buying something in the physical world, and more ambitious measures may be required to ensure that people can still own personal property in the digital marketplace. See the excellent work of Aaron Perzanowski and Jason Schultz on this point. But the bare minimum of "owning" a movie would seem to be the continued ability to actually watch it.

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'It's Always DRM's Fault'

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  • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:39PM (#57335864)

    We all love to be outraged when some company or government does something that would piss us off.
    However normally if you dig into the details it isn't someone just trying to mess with you but a complex set of requirements and actions that have happened to cause it.
    You can disagree with it, but save your outrage until you get the full picture.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:47PM (#57335936)

      There is always more to the story, but there is also the simple fact that DRM will eventually bite you in the ass if you purchase DRM media. The easiest answer is don’t buy DRM media unless you understand that it’s a lot more like renting than buying.

      • by Krishnoid ( 984597 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:55PM (#57336456) Journal

        Did you think "Digital Restrictions Management" [defectivebydesign.org] would make accessing content *less* restrictive? It's kind of right in the name.

        • by pots ( 5047349 )
          You understand that's not actually what it stands for, right? That's just an insulting thing that people call it. The 'R' stands for Rights - Digital Rights Management. So no, it's not right in the name.
          • by caseih ( 160668 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:50PM (#57338882)

            Sure. But "Digital Rights Management" is just a euphemism as far as the end user is concerned. It is indeed about managing rights, but not the rights of the consumer. It's marketing doublespeak. No, this is entirely about the rights of the person "selling" (renting) the content, and a mechanism for doing an end-run around copyright terms and limitations. Thus the term is really dishonest, and deliberately misleading to end users. No, Digital Restrictions Management is actually far more accurate of a description of what DRM is and does. It's not an ignorant thing people say like those who use "M$." Rather it's an accurate depiction of what DRM is intended by vendors to do. I say "vendors," rather than content creators, because these days content creators get abused as much as consumers do.

            • It's marketing bullshit, but it is accurate. It asseses if you have the right to access the file. If you can't prove you have the right it won't open the file. It's Managing your Rights to access a Digital file.
          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward

            The 'R' stands for Rights - Digital Rights Management.

            DRM manages "rights" in the same way that prison manages "freedom". We don't call prisons "freedom management centers" so why should we be bound to use the corporate newspeak when referring to DRM? The phrase Digital Restrictions Management is a more accurate description of what's actually happening. I use that phrase whenever I have the opportunity to do so, especially in conversations with non-technical people who want to know why their music or movies that they supposedly "bought" don't work anymore. Try

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Only ever buy DRM infected media if you are 100% you can rip it to a free format.

        I usually get the download from the Pirate Bay or wherever first, and then buy the physical media. Aside from not wasting energy re-encoding stuff, the pirate version will have been checked, tagged, artwork included and all files named correctly.

    • It's a shame that someone got so butthurt over your display of common sense that they had to downmod your post.

      Here is a meta +1 Insightful. :)

    • by jdavidb ( 449077 )
      There's nothing here that justifies DRM or copyright. They aren't justifiable.
      • You are not okay with some amount of copyright? Certainly not the 'copyright in perpetuity' that effectively exists in the U.S. for Mickey Mouse, etc. But some amount?
        • by jdavidb ( 449077 )
          Right. I'm not okay with copyright. Obviously limited copyright is better than perpetual copyright.
        • by jedidiah ( 1196 )

          > You are not okay with some amount of copyright?

          Except this isn't copyright. This is someone fucking with you after you've paid them.

          Copyright makes it illegal for you to give other people copies and gives artists the standing to sue you and the government the standing to jail you.

          Being fucked with after you've paid is not necessary.

          Being fucked with if you haven't given anyone else a copy, is not necessary.

          • He just was unable to get a new copy from Apple, for the reason that Apple did not have the legal right to make that copy per its contractual requirements around region-based licensing, i.e., Apple did not have the 'copyright'.

            In other words, 'copyright' doesn't mean what you think it means.
          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            Fair copyright would be:

            - 10 years, an additional 5 if the holder is still alive

            - Personal copies/backups allowed

            - Mandatory licencing scheme for remix/sampling

            - Mandatory licencing for re-use, e.g. in YouTube videos

            - Harsh penalties for false copyright claims where due care and attention was not used

            - Anything that limits these rights must be clearly marked on the product, similar to health warnings on cigarette packets etc.

        • by Falos ( 2905315 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:55PM (#57337838)

          I am okay with incentivizing creation.
          Heck, let's pour on more than we do now! Prolekistan is about to lose their only export and we're woefully underprepared. One of the few reliable human domains is Come Up With New Shit.

          I am not okay with imaginary property.
          Are extraterrestrials aware that some monkeys with briefcases in a glass cube called dibs on that shoelace knot? Everywhere in the universe, simultaneously, forever. Even after Joe Brown has ceased brainwave activity he has rights on brainwaves. I couldn't discuss the morals if i wanted to; before that, we have a very weird expectation of sheer technical logistics, preempting anything else.

          Assuming I did recognize the ownership as viable, I then have a problem assigning product value on a non-product. We have never seen a free market, but insisting that "GGADAGC starting at 82.0Hz" requires an exchange of goods, intrinsically, is the accepting of a construct in a manner only matched by Christianity. Gander than the diamond cartel, who at least dealt in scarce-ifying a quantified tangible.

          All that said, I have no idea how we could accomplish a cash system for creation. It's hard to do without coming up with random ass rules, easily exploited bullshit, ass-eating contrived logic, unsupported conclusion leaps, etc.

          i.e. what we have right now

      • There's nothing here that justifies DRM or copyright. They aren't justifiable.

        If we didn't have copyright there would be nothing to enforce the freedom of free software. Device vendors could take free code, augment it, bundle it up in devices and never distribute the code or allow it to be changed.

        • How is that different from what happens now? Just how many private developers have sued over free software being redistributed without the code. Try suing a company like google and see where it gets you? If you don't go bankrupt from legal costs what are the chances you haven't violated one of their numerous copyrights and patents.

          It is a license nightmare why should you have to release all your code because you include 1 library or worse still a library that includes a library that includes a library tha

          • So do away with restrictive, copyleft licenses all together? I'd certainly agree with that, but if you take a look at any of the BSD vs GPL kind of shitfights you'll find a lot of people disagree.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      The word "buy" has had a well known, universally understood, meaning for aeons. When I buy something, the onus to deliver is on the seller. The "complex set of requirements and actions" are not my problem, they are the seller's. He committed to sell, now he must deliver.
      If he does not like that, he should not use the word "buy" combined with a million word EULA of legalese in a an attempt to redefine the meaning of the word.
      Legally he may be right, but that just makes him an asshole. In every meaningful mea

      • Note that the EULA most often shows up only AFTER you have paid for a product. At which point getting a refund is incredibly difficult, and will typically be disallowed.

        Licensing is more complicated these days, and the sorts of things included in todays licenses are nothing whatsoever like licenses in the past so the customer can make few assumptions about what may be in the license. You really do not know what you're getting until after you buy it.

    • by bferrell ( 253291 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @03:25PM (#57336722) Homepage Journal

      while the requirements MAY be complex (they often aren't) misrepresentation IS the core issue.

      If the "complex requirements" result in a product that is not salable without misrepresentation or terms that require extensive legal review... Perhaps the problem lies there, not with the consumers outrage.

    • Wait, isn't the fact that it matters what region his itunes was set to a big problem? Being available for "purchase" but only usable in certain markets or under certain conditions is the essence of an attack on what ownership itself means, which was the whole point of the first discussion. Technically if you buy a DVD in region 1, in order to watch it in region 2 you basically have to commit a felony. How is that ownership? This is only getting worse.
    • by sjames ( 1099 )

      That may shift who should get the blame, but it hardly excuses the problem.

    • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:24PM (#57337612) Journal
      When it comes to intellectual "property", the full picture is likely to only enrage me further. The upshot is usually that companies have turned their temporary monopolies (what copyright is, or used to be) into actual property, and at the same time turned what by rights should be our property into a temporary license that can be revoked on a whim.

      I am old fashioned and I like building a library of music and movies, even if it's a digital one. Streaming's no good precisely because of this issue: Netflix doesn't renew their license or I move to a different country or whatever, and stuff randomly disappears. Like the removal guys stealing a couple of my books when I move house. Here's a deal for the movie companies: sell me a license that entitles me to a copy of your movie. You don't need to actually provide the file or a disc, I can get the file myself, not to worry. Save us both a little money and hassle. As long as that license continues to grant me the right to have that movie in whatever format on any device, in perpetuity. I'll pay, gladly.
      • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        As long as that license continues to grant me the right to have that movie in whatever format on any device, in perpetuity. I'll pay, gladly.

        The problem is even Hollywood might not actually have the right to give you that kind of license. Unless you want to pay for license upgrades - i.e., you buy "HD now" and then "4K upgrades" and "8K license upgrade".

        The reason is simple - a lot of contracts may not have allowed for some provisions. Early movies did not have a "home video" provision - because the idea of

    • The "more to the story" here is that sellers of content will say you can "buy" when in reality you can only rent the content. False advertising. If you buy anything with DRM, know that you will lose access to it someday if you don't take proactive measure to make fair use copies of it (even if technically illegal in some countries).

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Problem solved.

  • Piracy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by darkain ( 749283 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:41PM (#57335888) Homepage

    DRM is still the absolute #1 reason why piracy is better than paying outright for a "product" (service?)

    • by msauve ( 701917 )
      "DRM is still the absolute #1 reason why piracy is better than paying outright for a "product" (service?)"

      You're early. Talk Like a Pirate Day is tomorrow.
  • Save the Angst (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DatbeDank ( 4580343 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:43PM (#57335896)

    He already bought it, go to your favorite torrent site and re-download the video.

    I see no moral quandry to doing this.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I DO see a moral problem with giving money to abusers. By paying people who use this terrible DRM at all, one strengthens its position in the market. This allows the abusers to thrive, and keep on abusing.

      Don't be an enabler. Just don't pay.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • So sick of the Cloud marketing jargon nonsense... do we have to use it on a tech website, too?

  • I just love how this digital holiday comes the day before a true Pirates day!

    I've never heard of Day against DRM - so maybe they did this on purpose. But this story is the reason I dislike DRM and purchasing from iTunes. Apple Tv is just so darn convient - I can't possibly download all of those movies. Nor do I know that they'd be playable "next year" on a new device.

    Hence my rather large BluRay collection. All I need is for the industry to keep making bluray players.

    darn.

  • I know the topic is TV shows and movies, but keep in mind that Apple has not sold any DRM-infected music for nine years [macworld.com].

  • The more more stories of normal consumers (not tech nerds) getting things taken away on account of DRM the better. The pressure is rising, and hopefully customers will begin to think twice about paying for the long term rentals our tech companies are masquerading as purchases.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    I absolutely own the CD/DVD/Bluray discs in my cupboard.
    I can copy and play them any time, any where on my devices.
    I can play them when the network goes down (and/or power goes out)--not dependent on streaming.

  • Download vs online (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Midnight Thunder ( 17205 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:15PM (#57336152) Homepage Journal

    The main thing is if the seller has provided you the ability to download and keep a perpetual copy, then they have definition provided you a copy. At that point any online redownload following a local deletion should be seen as a bonus.

    If on the other hand your purchase is not downloadable, then you should be challenging the notion of buying.

    • by puto ( 533470 )
      I was just coming to post this. If you buy your content from Apple, Google, Disney, they make it available for download. You then download and keep a copy archived for your personal use. All digital providers have to follow copyright law from country to country. The providers allow you to stream and download as a courtesy. Content owners also can choose to pull content from Apple/Google at any time they want. You purchasing and downloading the content once, they have met their obligation with you. Th
  • by Anonymous Coward

    ... and not just to a particular provider - in general against anyone who releases content with DRM.

    The basis? The US constitution guarantees that copyrights are of limited duration. Even though congress continually extends that period, it must be finite. Since congress, in its DCMA wisdom, makes breaking DRM illegal, content consumers must be indemnified somehow.

    At a minimum, providers of DRM content should escrow either the unprotected content or some monetary compensation in anticipation of the eventu

  • Oregon Trail (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Colin Castro ( 2881349 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:25PM (#57336246)

    I purchased Oregon Trail from iTunes and GameLoft took it out of the store. I'm super pissed because it should still work on my older iPad, but I'll never get to play it again. The icon is still on my iPhone as proof I bought it at one point.

    • Can you not go to the Purchased section in the App Store on your iPad and redownload it? I can still see (nearly?) all of the apps I ever purchased in there, even ones the developers took down years ago.

      • It's no longer there. It was a year or so ago last time I checked. So currently the only copy is on my phone.

        • Weird.

          It should be possible to restore from a phone backup to your iPad, so that would be one way of transferring it over, though you'd then need to set your iPad back up as you like. Alternatively, it used to be the case that you could backup apps to iTunes on a PC/Mac and then sync them between devices that way, but I think they may have removed that functionality at some point in the last year or two.

          Anyway, sorry to hear that's the case.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:32PM (#57336302)

    The one thing I learned about stuff like eBooks and other DRM-encumbered media is to buy it from the vendor that is the easiest to decrypt. I don't use iBooks, because there are no decryption methods, and one is locked to an Apple platform. Kindle and Kobo, I can use a tool to decrypt my eBooks, throw the decrypted copies into Calibre, and continue on with life. I have purchased tens of thousands of eBooks, and because I did my homework, I can read them anywhere, or even print them out and have a usable hardcopy. Had I bought the books from the Apple Store, I would be limited on the devices I could use... i.e. only current iWhatzits.

    • Tens of thousands? Wow, I'm struggling at around 1500 ebooks and already onto my third Kindle. Totally agree with stripping DRM and using Calibre to manage your library. I've done similar with audio and moving from a few hundred gigs of MP3s to rapidly approaching a few terabytes of FLAC. Will likely never complete the move from DVD to 4K video content though as they take so long to rip it's easier to stick with my original media for now.

  • by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:37PM (#57336340)

    You're deploying your content to a turing complete device. DRM won't work. It will either be ineffective or so bad it will regularly screw over your most loyal customers. All others will get the rips because it's waaaay less hassle without DRM.

    It's a crying shame if you are in the business and haven't gotten that into you thick stupid skull by now.

    Forget DRM and offer a good purchasing experience and people will flock to you in droves. Best current example: gog.com.

  • by OneHundredAndTen ( 1523865 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:41PM (#57336370)

    Content owners just don't get it, either because they are too set in their ways, or else because they are too stupid. Piracy's motivation is not, for the most part, a desire to get people to save a few dollars. Its motivation is to empower people to access the material promptly, conveniently, at all times, everywhere. I am willing to venture that most people do not resort to the Pirate Bay and others because it is free. They do so because it is convenient. Official offerings seem to be keen on making it as difficult and inconvenient as possible to access the material, with constraints on where, when, and in what devices you are allowed to play the material. The Pirate Bay and others make it easy and convenient, while at the same time removing those artificial constraints. Also, nobody will sneakily remove any material that you have obtained from such sites.

    Content owners can of course do whatever they want with the material that they own. But things won't change much in piracy front for as long as they remain stubbornly anchored in their obsolete business model. Unless, of course, they want to bring about police state-like controls, that is. The realistic choices for them are either to make less money out of their content than before, or to make no money at all.

    • > I am willing to venture that most people do not resort to the Pirate Bay and others because it is free.

      That definitely would be an interesting stat to have! Though I'm not sure how one could accurately measure this?

      Also, I imagine the reasons _why_ one would visit sites like TPB *overlap:*

      I.e.
      [x] I *already* bought a copy but I'm traveling without physical access,
      [x] "Cuz it's free, man!"
      [x] It's convenient.
      [x] "Stick it to the man(agenent)!"
      [x] "Sharing is caring."
      [x] I just collect everything.
      [ ] Oth

    • Most people who I know that visit the Pirate Bay et al web sites do it ... because it's free. I know a few people who purchased old-school Apple iPod (the big ones) and fill it with all the free music they can find. Then buy a hacked Roku box to get the free shows.

      Admittedly, neither one has the money to buy shit. But they download far more than a few favorites.

      Another guy I knew was into Tennis and would visit several offsite streaming services. He liked to watch the big matches and they weren't avai

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Why did someone feel that there was more to the story? He bought movies, Apple removed them, DRM made it possible for Apple to steal them from him. End of story. That Apple had their asses covered with legal documents that made this legal for them was never in question.

  • by Sandman1971 ( 516283 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @03:01PM (#57336522) Homepage Journal

    And people wonder why (and sometimes snicker at the fact that) I still buy physical blurays and music CDs. I rip them (still legal here), put them on my NAS and store them away. I never have to worry about DRM crap.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    My US iTunes account has never region jumped. I have that account and one here in Japan for Japanese purchases. The US iTunes is linked to my US credit card and mailing address, so I can continue to buy shows and movies as they come out. This is especially important with movies that usually come out in the US on DVD before they even hit the theater in Japan. I've got a 12TB RAID that downloads them as I purchase them. Need to upgrade to something bigger soon...

  • Funny thing . . . (Score:5, Insightful)

    by smooth wombat ( 796938 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @03:23PM (#57336712) Journal

    I don't have this problem playing my CDs. I put them in my player, any player, and they play.

    No matter where I go, they work.

    Must be this new fangled technology we hear is supposed to make our lives easier that is causing the issue.

    • I don't have this problem playing my CDs. I put them in my player, any player, and they play.

      No matter where I go, they work.

      Must be this new fangled technology we hear is supposed to make our lives easier that is causing the issue.

      Play your Region 1 DVD movie disc in a player in say, Japan. What’t you say it doesn’t play?

  • The complexity collapse is advancing nicely I see. Now add something on top of DRM. Let's hit the accelerator.
  • by thisisauniqueid ( 825395 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @10:00PM (#57339210)
    Who buys movies these days? Just stream them. Do you really watch the same movie enough times that it makes sense to own it? I can count on one or two hands the movies I have seen more than once.
  • See Microsoft “Plays for Sure, “Zune” and most recently “Groove Music”.
  • drm means you dont buy stuff, you buy the right to use stuff. you dont own products anymore. if you dont like it, remove politicians who are constantly bribed to allow such nonsense.
  • If I have to get it with DRM, I don't get it.

    We had it made with vinyl and tape. I used to have the dolby-enhanced cassettes for the car, made tapes with exactly what I wanted to hear, and played them, no corporate interference involved. For home, I had a big reel-to-reel, with the 10 1/2" reels, with hours of music that a played through my 100 W / channel Sansui electronics that I bought while in the Air Force at Ramey AFB, Puerto Rico in the early 70's. There was, BTW, no tape hiss with that. Every

  • To stay with the Apple and iTunes example, the old-fashioned way to watch a movie purchased from the iTunes Store would be
    (1) to download it in the iTunes desktop app,
    (2) and then watch it there,
    (3) sync it to a portable device,
    (4) or keep iTunes running as a "server" in your home where
    (5) it can be streamed to devices such as the Apple TV. But this is just not how things are done anymore.

    Whereas my system involves (1) insert disc in player
    (2) press desired buttons on front of player.

    Sounds like th

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