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Patents Apple Technology

The Touch Bar Could Replace the Keyboard on Future Macbooks (cnet.com) 211

Posted by msmash from the shape-of-things-to-come dept.
Apple's new patent applications hint at more touch-sensitive surfaces and virtual keyboards. From a report: In the wake of user complaints and multiple lawsuits concerning problems with the "butterfly switch" keyboard Apple has used in its laptops since 2016, the company may be developing new user interfaces that depend less on moving mechanical parts. The company has filed three new keyboard-related patents, Mashable reported on Monday. One of the patent applications describes a laptop with a digital panel where a keyboard traditionally sits. This could be interpreted as a plan to replace the conventional keyboard with technology similar to the Touch Bar -- the row of virtual, customizable buttons that Apple debuted on the Macbook Pro in 2016. The patent also includes information about sensors and haptics embedded beneath the envisioned digital panel, which would allow it to detect and respond to user inputs such as keystrokes, taps and clicks.
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The Touch Bar Could Replace the Keyboard on Future Macbooks More

The Touch Bar Could Replace the Keyboard on Future Macbooks

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  • Macbook Wheel anybody? (Score:5, Funny)

    by rlitman ( 911048 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:30PM (#57081054)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    • How do you top this? To which mystical lands can your courage possibly take you now? Only one thing left to take away. Ladies and gentlemen, we give you: The New Macbook With No Screen.

    • They've also got the title wrong, it should be:

      Will the Touch Bar Replace the Keyboard on Future Macbooks?

      to trigger Betteridges Law.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Rhipf ( 525263 )

      Everything is just a few hundred clicks away.

  • The Onion couldn't do better... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by samwichse ( 1056268 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:31PM (#57081060)

    As usual, life imitates art.

    https://www.theonion.com/apple... [theonion.com]

    This is a stupid idea and Apple should feel bad.

    • This is a stupid idea and Apple should feel bad.

      Companies file patents for silly stuff all the time. That doesn't mean they are going to do anything with it.

      Apple already has a good solution to their keyboard problem: Go back to the 2015 keyboard.

      They just need to give up a millimeter of thinness.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        How it works. Keyboard to create content vs touch pad to consume content. It depends whether it is a content creation computer in the hands of a content creator or a content consumption device in the hands of an empty headed content consumer. So the difference between interacting with the device many times a second and interacting with the device a few times per hour. Different devices for different users and Apple is a content consumption company and not really a content creation company. It used to be, bu

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        The 2015 keyboard was crap too, just less crap than the current one.

        Flat keys are really bad for typing, no matter how much travel they have. The reason proper keys are concave is so that your fingers can feel when they are off centre and you subconsciously correct any errors as you type.

        Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards are short throw and thin but retain that curvature. Many other manufacturers copied Apple with the flat, useless caps that look nice but fail badly for usability.

        It doesn't surprise me that Apple i

  • So basically, a clamshell iPill ... I mean iPad ... with two fragile/glass screens. I guess typing on it would be OK with some sort of clear overlay with squishy keys, but I still prefer a real keyboard.
    • Too bad Apple doesn't really have any proprietary video game franchises. Because this sounds like a Nintendo DS to me. Maybe they could take the 3D screen idea while they're at it.

      • In all their avoiding having touch screens on the Macbook line, they managed to come up with something worse.

      • Because this sounds like a Nintendo DS to me.

        At least a Nintendo DS has a Control Pad, four face buttons, two shoulder buttons, and two system buttons. It's why a lot of game genres work better on a DS or 3DS than on the flat sheet of glass that is the input device of an iPhone or Android phone.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Dracos ( 107777 )

      Apple will be lavished with praise for inventing a Nintendo 3DS with no physical buttons.

  • Outstanding (Score:5, Insightful)

    by llamalad ( 12917 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:34PM (#57081084)

    I was hoping that someone would take my least favorite aspects of the newer macbook pros (a picture of an escape key (vi much?) and pictures of other buttons that take zero force to activate, littering my typing with garbage when a finger strays past the top row) and extend that frustration to every key on the keyboard.

    Hey, Apple- while you're at it, why don't you give me a nice papercut and pour lemon juice in it?

    • Re:Outstanding (Score:4, Insightful)

      by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:35PM (#57081088)
      Apple laptops aren't designed for work anymore -- they're made for hipsters to look cool.

      • my employer gives a choice between Dell Windows or Macbook pro laptop... hey at least it's BSD. So the thing does very well plugged into a couple of monitors, keyboard and mouse. But take it outside the building? nah, that keyboard and giant touchpad sucks. It's tolerable to take to meetings...

        • Old joke:

          Employer: You have the choice. A, a MacBook Pro, or B...
          Employee: B.

          • Windows is still the worst OS I've ever worked with, and I've worked with over a dozen

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by tsa ( 15680 )

              I agree. It makes me cringe every day I have to work with it. It has design faults and inconsistencies that were in Win3.1 and still haven't been fixed.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by bazorg ( 911295 )

                It has design faults and inconsistencies that were in Win3.1 and still haven't been fixed.

                That's a very strange kind of inconsistency.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Cederic ( 9623 )

              You never used a VIC-20 then, or a Spectrum, or an Atari ST.

              Great computers for their time. Glad I'm not constrained to their OS now.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by 605dave ( 722736 )

            Funny thing is in reality employees prefer Macs

            https://www.macrumors.com/2018... [macrumors.com]

            Sorry to ruin your joke.

        • Re: Outstanding (Score:4, Informative)

          by that this is not und ( 1026860 ) * on Monday August 06, 2018 @06:03PM (#57081304)

          You put BSD on the Dell? Because that's not BSD on the Mac. It's a stale FreeBSD userland on top of the kernel from crochety old NeXT Step.

          • OS X is still mostly BSD from command line and POSIX/BSD point of view.

            kernel is mix of mach and some BSD

            • OS X is still mostly BSD from command line and POSIX/BSD point of view.

              You know Apple "deprecated" cron, right? That kind of idiocy is a strike at the heart of "being *nix" as far as I'm concerned. The less *nixy it is, the more work it is to use it for me, because I have to support both types of OS — I have considerably better things to do than figure out what Apple's screwing up, or planning to screw up, in the latest OS.

              Back OT, the awful chiclet keyboards on the macbooks weaned me off ever buying

              • cron still works though

                on the other hand, some scripts that worked for years in GNU/Linux are fucked up by systemd and needed a lot of work. The Debian SJW systemd-tards shit on GNU/Linux and the other major distros picked it up

              • Idunn:develop angelos$ cron
                cron: can't open or create /var/run/cron.pid: Permission denied

                Seems to work as intended

      • Apple laptops aren't designed for work anymore

        *Laptop*, where mobility and compactness may be more important. When at your desk at the office or home, where people may do more typing, plug in the external keyboard, mouse and display. Working from the laptop's display and keyboard at the office is a joke, its only for those idiotic open floor plan offices that provide nothing more than crappy tables and chairs. Any employer with half a brain will provide external displays, keyboard and mice, as will any half serious home worker.

        • Maybe you want to get work done while traveling and don't want to lug external crap around. Or maybe you want to sit comfortably on the couch and get work done. Or maybe it's not work at all, but you find a desktop easier to surf the web on, instead of hunting-and-pecking on a shitty touch-screen.
          • There is no need to lug around an external. One for the office and possibly a second for home. Most users probably do a relatively small amount of *work* related typing when traveling and on the couch.

            Also note I was responding to a claim that *current* Apple laptops are not designed for work. These current keyboards are sufficient for travel and couch. I am *not* defending the notion of a touch screen keyboard, I agree that this would be a bad idea. However I disagree regarding the current keyboards. Wh

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by JD-1027 ( 726234 )
              Current MacBook Pro keyboards are ok for "on the go" EXCEPT the lack of physical escape key. That absolutely destroys my very quick keyboard based gui navigation in any application. Hopefully the new ones are a bit more quiet as well.

      • Chicken-poking typists UNITE!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by xeoron ( 639412 )
      Apple did buy up Fingerworks, which made some really cool touch based programmable keyboards. They merely killed the product line and used the patents for swipes and other gestures for the touchpads/iphone/ipad. Maybe they should bring back the Fingerworks boards, but for laptops.

    • No lemon juice, it'll liquid damage the laptop.

      It'll be glued together with "no serviceable parts" inside, but it will still let in liquid.

    • Don't worry, they are working on a new iLightning connector, too - that will replace all connectors on that Macbook, and require a dongle that will only change the iLightning to regular Lightning. Then you can use the already-existing dongles to change to what you really want to do. You like dongles, don't you?

    • Do it worry. With the advent if autocorrect out does nits matter of you misstype dir the lack of tactile feedback anymore. I an using a touch keyboard and I an fine.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      a picture of an escape key (vi much?

      Actually, I wonder why GVim for macOS doesn't have support for the Touch Bar. Seems like at the very least, you could turn the entire bar into the Escape Bar.

      Why make it an itty-bitty key when you have the ability to get out of whatever mode you're in by tapping with either hand.

  • This will never fly, it's probably pre-emptive in case someone else thinks its a good idea or for their war chest.

    Just like the touch bar itself, no one else gives it positive feedback either ...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

      This will never fly.

      It will, most like through a window.

    • Just like the touch bar itself, no one else gives it positive feedback either ...

      Hey, who started with giving no feedback! Or any for that matter, hell, those damn things giving you no feedback when typing IS one of the key complaints.

  • Alternative solution (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lbates_35476 ( 901961 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:42PM (#57081142)
    Quit trying to make the damn laptop so thin and put a good keyboard in it. IMHO Apple's obsession with thin is form over function.
    • Buy the rights to the model M keyboard and build a tactical laptop that you could murder a man with. Several men. And the vintage black would look cool, too.

      • I still maintain the older model Ms can stop 9mm bullets.

      • but with Apple's you can do the anime or movie katana meme where you run by the opponent moving the thin thing so fast the eye can't see it, then the opponent takes a step before either torso slides off waist or head or face falls off.

    • Quit trying to make the damn laptop so thin and put a good keyboard in it. IMHO Apple's obsession with thin is form over function.

      The real alternative is to get an external keyboard (and mouse and display) for office and/or home. You only need to use the built-in keyboard when away from home or office.

      And yes, that includes the modern Model-M keyboards from Unicomp.

      • Why bother with a laptop then ... might as well just have desktops and a damned tablet aka torture device for anyone used to typing on a real kb.
        • Why bulk up a laptop with a real keyboard when the laptop's primary features are mobility and compactness. That for any extended duration typing a person is more likely to be at the office or at home. The tradeoff that has a more broad appeal seems to be compactness when mobile and the flexibility of external for home or office when the extended typing is more likely.

          Its kind of hard to think of not using an external display at the office or home when in "work" mode, so an external keyboard and mouse see

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Cederic ( 9623 )

            Why bulk up a laptop with a real keyboard when the laptop's primary features are mobility and compactness.

            I added the hardware keyboard to my Surface Pro because it adds no more thickness than a decent case would, provides the same protection and includes some rather excellent utility.

            for any extended duration typing a person is more likely to be at the office or at home

            In the office I'm likely to be in the canteen drinking coffee. If I want to do work I'll work from home, so at work I'm talking to people.

            At home I'm going to be sat on the recliner, feet up. Or maybe sat in the garden, cat lying beside me. Sometimes I'll be working from home while sat at the local pond, bait in the water, telecon

  • After all, with the kind of keyboards described here, Apple's laptop computer sales would likely tank. They may want to be just a cell phone company.

  • I use a keyboard [massdrop.com] that uses hall effect (magnetic) sensors instead of physical contacts. Theoretically it is nearly waterproof and won't wear out, with an exception for the bamboo version.

    Hall effect, capacitive sensing, or opto-mechanical are all viable options for keyboards that are more robust than traditional rubber dome keyboards. If there were only a company that prided itself on innovation. It could perhaps make a thinner and lighter version of these designs.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

      Except almost no one wants super thin keyboards, except as a trade-off. The actuating mechanism is irrelevant, it is all about the course and tactile feedback. Very thin keyboards don't have enough course and are uncomfortable.

      About longevity, even well designed rubber dome keyboards can last for more than a decade and be water resistant. Fancy switches can make things even better but they are not really a necessity for the average user.

    • It's possible to make rubber dome keyboard water resistant. It just costs more to manufacture

      • They rubber domes do wear out though. And the feel is usually not great, but laptops are certainly a place where compromises are often made.

  • How about FIXING THE KEYBOARDS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mykepredko ( 40154 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:44PM (#57081164) Homepage

    When it comes right down to it, all smart devices need a text entry mechanism. I hate using the touchscreen on my iPhone for basically anything other than a text and the examples here seem to be pushing users in that direction.

    Apple Engineers: Rather than trying to come up with new ways for users to enter text into Macbooks, why don't you accept the input method that has been around for more than a century and come up with a keyboard that fixes the problems that were introduced in 2016? If you don't feel like they can be fixed than either go back to the old mechanicals or come up with new ones.

    When you have a problem with your hardware, the optimal solution is not to change everybody in the world's approach to interfacing with devices, you should fix the problem.

    • The latest revision of the MacBook Pro actually fixes the keyboard problems with better dust barriers.

      That's why the notion that the touch bar will expand to be the whole keyboard is absurd.

      What they really need to do is offer force feedback on the touch bar for presses.

    • >"Apple Engineers: Rather than trying to come up with new ways for users to enter text into Macbooks, why don't you accept the input method that has been around for more than a century and come up with a keyboard that fixes the problems that were introduced in 2016? If you don't feel like they can be fixed than either go back to the old mechanicals or come up with new ones."

      Or perhaps contact Lenovo and license their designs. They seem to make perfectly good laptop keyboards that last forever, feel good

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by joh ( 27088 )

        >"Apple Engineers: Rather than trying to come up with new ways for users to enter text into Macbooks, why don't you accept the input method that has been around for more than a century and come up with a keyboard that fixes the problems that were introduced in 2016? If you don't feel like they can be fixed than either go back to the old mechanicals or come up with new ones."

        Or perhaps contact Lenovo and license their designs. They seem to make perfectly good laptop keyboards that last forever, feel good, and are quite functional, all while being thin and nice looking too.

        Except that Lenovo makes their $700 Yoga keyboards crappy (they feel like stabbing a bowl of dough) so you relent and buy a $1800 Thinkpad instead while the keyboard as a spare costs $50. Also the Macbook Pro keyboard is a quarter as thick.

        • >"Except that Lenovo makes their $700 Yoga keyboards crappy (they feel like stabbing a bowl of dough)"

          Good point- I was talking about the Thinkpad, not Yoga and not Ideapad. I should have been more specific.

          >"so you relent and buy a $1800 Thinkpad instead."

          Or you buy a $600 Thinkpad, which does have the same keyboard as the other Thinkpads (you aren't forced to buy a super-high end with Lenovo to get the good keyboard). Although it is not backlit.

          >"Also the Macbook Pro keyboard is a quarter as th

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      People will have to go back to hunt-and-peck typing while staring at the keyboard. After all, the layout can change at any time and there is no tactility to help you find keys.


  • <rant>
    Unless it is massively improved, as a mac user, I have zero interest in such 'innovation'.
    These guys need to get a reality check. They're becoming the Microsoft of the early 2000's, where each new release felt like a downgrade with a barely 'better' UI.
    Fix the broken pieces, before adding new ones @apple
    </rant>

  • Are these "inventors" really that dull... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mspring ( 126862 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:51PM (#57081212)
    ...to never have noticed themselves the positive value of tactile feedback??? Seriously!

    • >"...to never have noticed themselves the positive value of tactile feedback??? Seriously!"

      It isn't just tactical or hepatic, either. I would imagine trying to "type" on a flat surface will create all kinds of new repetitive stress injuries; on top of being unfriendly, slow, and uncomfortable.

    • Re:Are these "inventors" really that dull... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ortholattice ( 175065 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @08:51PM (#57082184)
      I actually learned "touch typing" when I was young, meaning I can type while looking at the book or whatever I'm referencing, and not looking at either the screen or the keyboard. Is this even a thing anymore? It definitely requires tactile feedback, along with bumps on F and J to align my fingers to their home position. All I know is that I can type far faster than about anyone else I know. Except on a touchscreen, where my speed slows down to a snail's pace, which is why I have avoided buying a tablet.

  • and apple will be kicked out of bar test + maybe others as well.

  • Called it (Score:3)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:57PM (#57081258)

    About a month ago, I speculated [slashdot.org] (only half jokingly) that Apple was knowingly and intentionally putting really crappy keyboards into their "Pro" laptops so that they could subsequently move to completely fake keyboards without the users noticing any further degradation in keyboard experience (because basically, at that point, Apple users would already be used to basically drumming their fingers on a piece of metal).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by joh ( 27088 )

      About a month ago, I speculated [slashdot.org] (only half jokingly) that Apple was knowingly and intentionally putting really crappy keyboards into their "Pro" laptops so that they could subsequently move to completely fake keyboards without the users noticing any further degradation in keyboard experience (because basically, at that point, Apple users would already be used to basically drumming their fingers on a piece of metal).

      They came with flat chiclet keyboards starting with the late 2008 MacBook exactly for this reason. And it worked, since all keyboards look this way now. The thing is not that Apple has plans, the thing is that Apple's plans WORK.

  • You would think Apple would at least be able to build a decent keyboard. At least it looks pretty and makes you think you're look cool when you show it off to people.

  • Apple is still selling computers which are based on eight years old technology being outmatched by current Goldmont Atoms but still selling at insane prices.

    Who ever thinks there is something coming up soon is a religious zealot.

    I am not making fun of apple. They are another greed company. I make fun of their customers.

  • RIP macbook (Score:3)

    by mr.dreadful ( 758768 ) on Monday August 06, 2018 @06:21PM (#57081420)
    RIP is a bit much, but honestly, as a developer and long time Apple user (25+), I can't remember the last time I got excited about a new macbook. In fact, I've spent the past several years wondering where to go next.... (ubuntu + dell XPS is leading the pack these days).

  • A patent is not a product plan, it's speculation on valuable future technology. Patents cannot be interpreted as a plan to do anything.

  • Oh JOY! (Score:2)

    by Chas ( 5144 )

    Another shitty virtual keyboard with only the absolute MINIMUM of haptic feedback!

    Sorry I ever complained about chicklet keys! I TAKE IT ALL BACK!

  • Do people within Apple just continue to agree with stuff because someone higher up suggested it? No critical thoughts?

    They had 'laser' based keyboards nearly a decade ago, keyboard directly on your desk surface. Not only would tapping the table endlessly hurt the finger tips, the lack of tactile feedback is awful. Also, how do you "hold down" a key or repeatedly press it?

    Between this and the touch bar itself, the headphone jack (sorry, no, I'm not a luddite, I'm just someone doesn't need or want to charge

  • Don't buy it if you don't like it.

  • Just for being precise, the butterfly mechanism isn't the "switch". It's just a clever mechanism to keep the keycap level when you press it. The actual switch sits under this mechanism and other than with basically all other laptop keyboards this isn't a rubber-dome switch, but a mechanical stainless steel micro-switch. That's the reason this keyboard is so loud. Apple did it this way because with a traditional rubber-dome switch and a scissors-mechanism you just can't arrive at the short travel and thinne

  • To do something so stupid. Most people like mechanical keyboards more than any other input device. You cannot beat the tactile response of a mechanical keyboard but hey, more power to them.

  • A laptop with a mechanical keyboard. Don't care if the laptop is 2" tick. :)

  • Type the wrong word and further letters just cant be accessed until the word is removed.
    Only approved words can be entered.

  • I'm surprised nobody mentioned Touchstream yet.

    They developed this keyboard:
    https://www.engadget.com/2010/... [engadget.com]

    Maybe 8 or 10 years ago?

    If you don't see it at first glance: It doesn't have keys. The whole thing is a big multi-touch surface, long before multi-touch appeared on smartphones. So you can type and the next second use it as a touchpad. It was pretty nifty.

    FingerWorks, the company that made it, was acquired by Apple. Then the iPhone appeared, with multi-touch. Ever since, I've been waiting for an all-

  • Apple says... (Score:3)

    by ayesnymous ( 3665205 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @03:19AM (#57083430)
    "What's a computer?"

  • The Lenovo Book already does this - Its basically 2 touchscreens one in the position of the keyboard [lenovo.com], and you have a non tactile touchscreen to type on (and in my opinion it sucks).

    • Yeah it seems like an interesting idea, but the reviews for such devices have been poor from a usability standpoint. I wonder if a phone in that format would be useful, but it might be too fragile.

  • i lol'ed (Score:2)

    by sad_ ( 7868 )

    i really lol'ed when i read this, until i realised that probably others will copy Apple and as a result we will end up with a lot of laptops that have this kind of keyboard. just, you know, to be cool like Apple is.

    just like with the phone nodge, Apple their silliness is affecting us all!

  • What are they patenting, this? https://www.extremetech.com/co... [extremetech.com]

    Clearly not. So what the hell are they going to get a patent for?

  • Two thoughts on this before everyone overreacts (Sorry about those of you who already did overreact):

    1. The touch screen style keys could bulge up slightly and depress slightly when pressed. This would give us the tactile feedback we're used to having with mechanical keyboards with the advantages of non-mechanical devices that would last longer, possibly indefinitely (compared to your short human lifespan). Sound can be played through the speakers to give you the auditory feedback you so love (or don't in w

  • Someone's been watching too much Star Trek [criticalcommons.org].

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