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Portables (Apple) Apple

'The MacBook Pro's One-Year-Old Signature Feature Touch Bar Has No Future, But Users Are Required To Pay a Premium For It' (chuqui.com) 284

Chuq Von Rospach, a former Apple employee and commentator, has criticized the MacBook-maker to force consumers to pay extra for the Touch Bar -- a signature feature of the last year's MacBook Pro lineup -- in order to have the highest-end MacBook Pro currently available. He writes: The current [MacBook Pro] line forces users to pay for the Touch Bar on the higher end devices whether they want it or not, and that's a cost users shouldn't need to pay for a niche technology without a future. So Apple needs to either roll the Touch Bar out to the entire line and convince us we want it, or roll it back and offer more laptop options without it. [...] So what's the future of the Touch Bar? I don't know. I'm not sure Apple does, either. I was fascinated that when Apple released the iMacs earlier this year not one word was mentioned about the Touch Bar or Touch ID and support for them via an updated keyboard or trackpad was nowhere to be found. I'm taking that as an indication that after the lackluster response to this with the laptop releases, they've gone back to the drawing board a bit before rolling it out further.
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'The MacBook Pro's One-Year-Old Signature Feature Touch Bar Has No Future, But Users Are Required To Pay a Premium For It'

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  • by Ty ( 15982 ) on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:51PM (#55097575)
    It's not just the touch bar, they FUBAR'd the entire keyboard. I'm nearly a year into using a MBP 2016 model daily and still make repeated typos due to low keyboard stroke depth. It's like typing on a piece of flat plastic.
    • by Misagon ( 1135 ) on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:14PM (#55097779)

      The MBP 2016 keyboard with "butterfly" scissor switches also have wider keys with smaller gaps between them - and smaller gaps also make many typists press two keys at once more often by mistake.

      Key spacing, key gaps, curvature, travel to actuation -- all those measurements that classic keyboards have, they were not grabbed out of thin air. They were developed after many studies of actual typists back in the typewriter era.

      • by bsolar ( 1176767 )

        I find the keyboard itself very nice and have no issues typing: my issues (keys repeating and being unresponsive) were confirmed by Apple service to be hardware problems and the top case got replaced twice free of charge under warranty.

        The keyboard is nice imho, but so far the hardware has simply been unreliable.

        • my issues (keys repeating and being unresponsive) were confirmed by Apple service to be hardware problems and the top case got replaced twice free of charge under warranty.

          Hmm. I find that if I hit keys off-center they can get stuck down, causing repeats. I also have some non-responsive keys (the arrow keys are the worst). The latter I'm sure are problems with my unit, and repairable. The former seems like a design problem. Do you think it's not?

        • by dgatwood ( 11270 )

          I find the keyboard itself very nice and have no issues typing: my issues (keys repeating and being unresponsive) were confirmed by Apple service to be hardware problems and the top case got replaced twice free of charge under warranty.

          My standard rule of hardware: If it fails once, it's a manufacturing defect. If it fails twice, it's a design flaw. From your anecdote, I can only conclude, then, that their new keyboard is a design flaw.

      • by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:09PM (#55098147)
        The typos for me come from the fact that the keys are flat and not cupped. Cupped keys give you instant feedback when your hands are drifting from typing position.
    • by bsolar ( 1176767 )

      This. I got the top case replaced twice in less than a year due to the keyboard having issues: repeated keys the first time and unresponsive keys the second...

      The guys at the service center claimed it's a relatively common issue with the new 2016 keyboard.

      If you have these issues ask for a repair: they will replace the whole top case which includes keyboard, touchpad and battery. In my case in the second repair they installed the 2017 version, which hopefully has some fixes to the keyboard's reliability.

    • It's not just the touch bar, they FUBAR'd the entire keyboard. I'm nearly a year into using a MBP 2016 model daily and still make repeated typos due to low keyboard stroke depth. It's like typing on a piece of flat plastic.

      +1

      I got a 2016 MBP a few months ago, and I find I largely hate it. I like the four USB-C ports, a lot, especially being able to plug power into any of them, as well as being able to use my laptop power adapter to recharge my phone (Pixel XL).

      The touch bar... meh. It doesn't really cause me problems, but I definitely don't love it. I might actually like it if they allowed me to configure which (touch bar-unaware) apps should use the touch keys as function keys. For most apps I prefer they have their defa

  • by blahbooboo ( 839709 ) on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:55PM (#55097617)

    I have one and I just dont get it. First of all as a touch-typer I never look at the keyboard. Therefore, it's completely awkward to have to look down at the keyboard from the screen to see some shortcuts buttons that randomly appear. Also, the buttons that appear arent useful at all so far. Fact is I only got the model because I wanted the Touch ID button (which also not very functional compared to the iPhone).

    This was a big goof up by apple.

    • by Strider- ( 39683 )

      I could see it being marginally useful if they implemented the force based touch that they have on iPhones, and little nubs or something so that you could feel the divisions between the "Buttons" or a little nub or something just right on the center.. not sure which... basically make it so that for most things, it doesn't respond to just dragging a finger over it vs a reasonable press. Of course, that wouldn't make the whole slider thing work...

      Of course, the current implementation of the touch bar is one o

    • Also, the buttons that appear arent useful at all so far.

      You mean like how you could just press volume up and down keys before, but now you need to look down, press the volume button to expose the slider, then slide your finger, then hide the slider? Now that's some value added!

  • by 110010001000 ( 697113 ) on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:58PM (#55097647) Homepage Journal
    I know why he is a former employee: he lacked Courage.
  • Click-Bait (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    This post is 100% Click-Bait. No where in the article did the author say anything remotely like the headline for this post. So why is it in quotes? Author was actually pretty neutral overall. Said he wants to give the touchbar more time to develop and would either make it ubiquitous among all macs or optional on high end.

  • Something that Chuck acknowledges but is glossed over in the summary is that the Touch Bar is only in the MacBook Pro for now. If it gets added to the MacBook line, as he suggests, the Pro users aren't paying extra but all MacBook users might be. Also there is the underlying assumption that the Touch Bar never changes. Could it become a force touch sensitive in the next iteration? Could Apple use the same tech and make the entire Track Pad double as a screen?
    • Could Apple use the same tech and make the entire Track Pad double as a screen?

      You mean capacitive touch screen technology? How cutting edge! I don't have a pocket sized device that can do that, nor have I had one for the past decade, so that would be totes amaze!

      Wait...

      • Could Apple use the same tech and make the entire Track Pad double as a screen?

        You mean capacitive touch screen technology? How cutting edge! I don't have a pocket sized device that can do that, nor have I had one for the past decade, so that would be totes amaze! Wait...

        Yeah because PC's with touch pads that double as programmable MFD's are a dime a dozen out there.

        • Hmm... literally every tablet computer and PDA since the 90's, every touch-capable smartphone, most Chromebooks, and many current model Windows laptops seem to fit that bill, actually. If you really want to limit it to PCs (and assuming you don't consider a Chromebook to be a PC), well, I've got 5 of them in my office right now. Again, a touch screen is nothing more than a touch pad overlaid onto a display; in other words, a touch pad that doubles as a programmable MDF.

          Yes, they're a dime a dozen, you can
        • They will be a dime a dozen when someone figures out they can stream advertising to the things.

    • In the long run this will be cheaper than mechanical keys. You still want mechanical keys for typing but you don't type on that top row. So even if all it did was permenantly show the F-keys it will not be costing extra. and if it works out it could have a lot of other uses such as more expressive touch modalities without the nuiscances of a full touch screen. cheaper too.

      • Cheaper maybe but I'm not a fan of touch keyboards. They are not as responsive as I would like. Also they don't provide feedback. But that's just me.
  • Oh wait, you can't. Not without looking down to check if virtual ESC button is there and where it is. And not without looking down to see if it actually "pressed" or not.

    Touch bar has got to go. And give the ESC key back or lose developers, who will quit you just on the principle of not supporting this design-dumb idea.

    Suggestion: Put a touch bar (perhaps vertical) to the right of the touch pad. If you need gimmicky stuff like audio volume slider etc.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      What the fuck kind of shitty IDE are you dweebs using that relies so heavily on function keys and esc? Xcode doesn't, IntelliJ doesn't, Android Studio doesn't. Don't tell me you're still writing code in some piece of shit text editor Richard Stallman hacked together in the 80s? I'm glad Apple doesn't hold everyone back just for a couple useless baby boomers.

      • Please don't tell me you're using some piece of shit millennial editor built on top of a web browser that dims the lights opening up grocery_list.txt.
  • I expected more, but in principe it's not bad.

    When you start debugging in Xcode, the TouchBar changes and you get buttons for step in/over/out, plus continue running. However since I consider myself in the high-risk RSI category, I use an external keyboard (Kinesis Freestyle 2) and I know the shortcut keys by heart now, but that took a loooong time since I'm not in the debugger every day.

    TouchID: In and of itself, it's not bad either. However when you use a password manager, it goes from bad to great becaus

  • Is Apple putting a gun to these people's heads?

    • No, they're putting a false choice down: You can get an upper-end MacBook with a touch bar or you can get a MacBook without a touch bar.

      Imagine if every pick-up truck with more hauling capacity than a low-end SUV had double rear wheels, even though only super-high-capacity trucks can carry a load exceeding a four-wheel vehicle's rear two wheels. Then, they tell you you can get the truck with six wheels, or you can get a four-wheel truck.

      The key to that analogy is that mid-tier trucks can't carry enou

  • I don't use a Mac because I am part of the Sheeple or bought into Apple's marketing. I use a Mac because I am (despite strong efforts from Apple to make it otherwise) more productive using it compared to the alternatives. I have a very nice employer-provided Windows laptop that I have to use as well and it reminds me daily how much easier it is to do my job on a Mac.

    I need to upgrade my Late 2011 MacBook Pro. I can still do what I need to do on it, but technology has marched on and the faster processors,

    • When this happened to me, I went with a Dell Precision running Ubuntu. It's got different irritations than my 2012 MBP, but overall I'm pretty happy. About 2x the hardware for the same price plus all the ports was what sold me on it. And Apple dropping magsafe was the icing on the shit cake. I loved my MPBs for a decade or so, but they're ridiculously expensive and crippled now, with most of the things I valued gone.

      My current laptop doesn't replace an old MBP, but it handily trumps the new MBPs. S

    • This is Apple? I thought Touch Bar was an attempt by an overly-enthusiastic Gentleman's Club to attract new patronage.

    • I spend more time interacting with applications running on an computer than the operating system.

      I don't even write code for Windows, but it doesn't get in the way of development.

  • There's no less than two companies (and maybe more, I just haven't been looking that hard) that make better MacBook Pros than Apple, with the single feature they can't do better is that you can't (legally) run macOS on them.

    https://www.razerzone.com/gami... [razerzone.com]
    http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop... [dell.com]

    Both have better displays, better GPUs, better RAM capacity, better CPU options, and are maybe slightly heavier, but not when you figure on all the dongles you'll have to pack around with you on the Mac to plug in shit you

  • Meh, considering how much I paid for a fully loaded MBP the touchbar cost is insignificant. It's not that bad, though since I am not usually looking at it I am ignoring most of what's on it. That, and it takes a bit longer to modify brightness and sound than I'd like.
    I would like to see Apple provide more tools for using it to input things like Unicode symbols used in Perl 6! While we are dreaming I'd like to exchange my screen for a multitouch capable one that opens flat to the table and use with a pen. Oh

  • the touchbar uses an extra monitor driven by the graphics card to provide the seamless extensibility that it does — so i dont think you could easily add something like that to any old USB keyboard — because you would also need the support of a graphics card to do so.

    it is only possible on the macbooks because the graphics card is already rolled in to the same package as where the touchbar is.

    2cents from toronto island
    john p

  • BAR test and other banned places make it so that you need an system with the same base power but without this.

  • This is why people make hackintoshs apple does not offer choice that people need.

    The Imac pro seems like it is going to fail. As the start price price is to high and due to apples push for thin and looks. Most people will be forced to pay apple pricing for RAM / Storage / CPU upgrades. As few will want to void the warranty and deal with unglueing reunglueing the screen Just to upgrade the ram.

    Apple may change $600-$1200+ to go from 32 GIG to 64 GIG. right now an 4 stick 64 GB DDR4 ECC kit is about $800-$10

  • Like many people, I'm in the habit of resting my hands on the keyboard. On a Macbook with a touch bar, I'm constantly performing random actions (often starting Siri) by mistake. No doubt with time I could learn not to do this, but I'm not willing to pay extra and have to relearn using the keyboard, for no significant advantage.

  • The touch bar is clearly a gimmick, but please name a single OEM who doesn't charge for every feature they build into their computers, even the ones that aren't wanted?

    It's unfair to single Apple out for doing the same thing as literally every manufacturer in the history of manufacturing.

  • I've always enjoyed my Macbook Pros. There are people who feel like it's some fashion/gimicky thing, but it has an underlying Unix/Linux flavor with an appealing GUI. You get the best of both worlds. That being said, I was excited to see my new work laptop had the TouchBar, but after about 5 minutes I put it back to the default Mac keys, and haven't looked back. I love the idea of keys that can change with context, but the reality is I never use it for that.
  • You all sounds just as whiny as the people complaining the new models only have USB-C ports...

    The TouchBar is not amazingly useful yet, but over time we'll see a lot of value as apps integrate it. For me the one thing I think the TouchBar really needs is haptic feedback. Well one more thing - we need to have a TouchBar on external keyboards too, the lack of that is what is really lowering adoption even for a lot of laptop owners.... including it would also mean iMac users could join in the TouchBar fun.

    • You all sounds just as whiny as the people complaining the new models only have USB-C ports...

      It wasn't the inclusion USB-C ports. It was the low number of USB-C ports, as well as the lack of well-established and not yet out-of-date ports.

      If Apple had put just left the HDMI port and one regular USB port, alongside the 4 USB-C ports, I would've upgraded to the new model and tried to fight my way through the inferior layout of the new keyboard. Instead, I passed up the port-short new rigs and just had my ne

  • Apple don't need to do anything. Sorry Chuq, but Apple doesn't need to even listen to you.
    They don't even need to acknowledge your existence. You haven't worked for Apple in over 10 years.
    When you did it was as tech support and internal email systems.
    Now you're an expert on product development and marketing?

  • by jemmyw ( 624065 )
    I have one of these laptops and I'm quite frustrated with it. The touch bar is the least of the issues - although I appreciate Touch ID for my password manager, the rest of the bar is meh. It's everything else that's wrong. The keyboard is pretty bad. I started off really liking it for the extra clickyness, but it just isn't stable, sometimes keys fail to register in certain places, which changes as the laptop warms and cools. Yesterday the 'k' key just stopped working, which you'd think would be a hardware
  • None of the new stuff and forced hardware changes with USB3, no lame touchbar, etc. I am bummed that Apple no longer offers to customize and order 2015 model online like its MF839LL (http://apple.com/us-hed/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MF839LL/A&step=config). The defaults are crap like the small SSD, RAM, etc. sizes. :(

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