'It's Tricky': Apple Misses the Deadline To Pay $13.9 Bn To Ireland in Illegal Tax Benefit (cnbc.com) 174
Apple has not fully paid the 13 billion euros ($13.9 billion) it owes to Ireland in illegal tax benefits even though the deadline has passed, the European Union's competition said on Tuesday. From a report: "Well the recovery is not done yet but we have been working with the Irish authorizes and we can see that they are moving forward to do the recovery of the unpaid taxes," EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager said during a press conference in response to a question by CNBC. "It's a tricky thing to do because it's a large sum so of course you have to figure out how to do that. It's not as an escrow account in some of the other cases where it might be 25 or 30 million euros ... and therefore I do respect that it's a complicated matter and it may take a little more time. Last year, the Commission ruled that Ireland must recover 13 billion euros in "illegal tax benefits" from Apple. It found that the U.S. technology giant paid an effective tax rate of 0.005 percent in Ireland in 2014.
Cant pay (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Cant pay (Score:5, Insightful)
So it's already in Ireland? That should make it easier.
Well, when the country you are supposed to pay it to refuses to accept it, that is a pretty big problem. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-... [bbc.com]
BTW, why is a failure to meet a Jan. 3rd deadline suddenly in the news? Even the EU bureaucracy isn't that slow.
Interesting tidbit: if they dumped the money in front of the Irish treasury as 500 Euro bills, that would be over 29 metric tons of paper, with a volume of about 34 cubic meters. It seems that would be slightly more than fits into a 20' shipping container - but you would need at least two anyway, because of the weight limit on trucks. So yeah, they could do that - if they can find somebody to sign the receipt. (http://www.fondations.net/weight-from-500-euro-note-informative/ [fondations.net])
Re:Cant pay (Score:4, Interesting)
Hard to free up cash when all your money is hidden in holding companies, dodgy schemes and tax havens.
While missing a payment deadline, I once told the electrical people my money was all tied up in fast times and poor decisions.
Despite the chuckle it elicited, their level of compassion could be measured by the $12 late fee on a $144 light bill.
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I wish... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I wish... (Score:5, Insightful)
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The company I work for competes by not being profitable (well only a few percent).
In the US at least, only profits are taxed, and we pay employees with them where I work.
Re:I wish... (Score:4, Interesting)
In the US at least, only profits are taxed.
Same in the EU, and everywhere else that I know of. The 13bn owed here is taxes on profits made by Apple across Europe over a period of a few years. So you can imagine just how much profit they actually made!
Normal corporation tax rate in Ireland is 12.5%, which tells us that Apple made profits in excess of €100bn over those years in Europe.
That *increases* taxes for small businesses (Score:2)
As is the case pretty much everywhere, paychecks are taxed MORE than corporate profits, except in a very specific case.
The employer pays unemployment taxes and 7.65% FICA, the employee pays 7.65% FICA, and the employee pays income taxes. Total tax rate on money paid to employees as compensation is around 41%. Much of that is not subject to deductions and credits.
Corporate tax is 34% of the amount over $335,000, with lower rates for the first $335,000.
One big thing the IRS watches out for is businesses payin
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I hate taxes as much as the next guy and I would like to "avoid" them where I can.
Yeah you hate taxes but you love the civilisation that they buy. If you really hate taxes, you can always move to the Libertain Paradise of the Congo where the government pretty much doesn't have the werewithal to collect taxes to any significant degree. Of course then you have you have to put up with living in a non functional country and so provide everything for yourself.
I like taxes because I like living in civilisation.
Re:I wish... (Score:5, Interesting)
I like taxes because I like living in civilisation. I am happy to contribute my bit.
I will not lie and pretend I like paying taxes. I like getting what they give me, and if I can get that for less money, I will. It's the same principle upon which big business works, and if it's good for them, then it's surely good for me.
Contributing my bit is not really the problem. Being asked to contribute someone else's bit because they are evading taxes, or because they are purchasing legislation which permits them to avoid them instead while I still am expected to pay them, that is the problem.
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Contributing my bit is not really the problem. Being asked to contribute someone else's bit because they are evading taxes, or because they are purchasing legislation which permits them to avoid them instead while I still am expected to pay them, that is the problem.
I 100% agree there.
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You and I may not always agree, but fuck that was well said.
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But if that's true, then companies using legal loopholes that they didn't create are morally equivalent to yourself.
Nope. Corporations don't have morals.
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He is right most people will use every legal means reduce taxes, that they can be bothered with. In fact if you are a corporation you owe a duty to your share holders to do so. The problem is the tax systems are bought for by companies, this should not be allowed. When I need to pay tax the government does not go into negotiations with me as to how much I should pay. They don't change laws to suit my tax needs. Companies should only be allowed to communicate with governments through public forums just like
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What about companies that make money in your country but have no owners there? They benefit from the infrastructure there, schools, health care etc. but do not pay anything towards it.
Also it does not take into account that income is not actually a function of effort or even skill especially for the rich. A person that is simply collecting "rent", is producing nothing if they died tomorrow their assets will still exist.
Requiring tax liabilities to repaid after death would simply mean that poor people could
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"Yeah you hate taxes but you love the civilisation that they buy. If you really hate taxes, you can always move to the Libertain Paradise of the Congo where the government pretty much doesn't have the werewithal to collect taxes to any significant degree."
Nice straw man. Only a small fraction of my total taxes pay for roads, police, and schools, the cornerstones of civilization.
Somehow Ike ran the US spending less than 15% of the GDP on federal government. Remind me again why a more modern US Government req
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The tax rates for the rich back then were a whole lot higher than they are today. Plus GDP increases when doing a lot of construction like highways. It's one reason why the Chinese GDP keeps growing to quickly.
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Pretty much. In the US at least the majority goes to healthcare, with a close second being the military.
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Utter bullshit.
Here in commy United Kindgom, 25% went on "Social Protection" which while it includes free handouts also includes things like childrens homes for orphans etc. so not all of that is free money either. Just shy of 20% when on health care but that's not free handouts of money to people. Then 12.8% went on State Pensions but to get a state pension you have to pay National Insurance so not really free money either. Then came education at 12%, that's not free money, interest on national debt came t
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to be fair, the majority of tax money does not go toward civilization, but towards the military industrial complex.
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Sure, but if you pay more, you are entitled to a refund, which will be sent back to you at tax-return time anyways, so it's a wash. May as well pay only what you owe, and use the money now instead of letting the government hold onto it for up to a year.
Of course, if you are only paying slightly more than you should, getting it back all at once right after you fill out your taxes can seem like a nice mini-windfall that can often be most welcome.
Re:I wish... (Score:5, Insightful)
> As a small business owner paying 25-50% tax, how are you supposed to compete against companies that end up paying 0.005%?
You're not, and that is by design.
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As a small business owner paying 25-50% tax, how are you supposed to compete against companies that end up paying 0.005%?
You are paying tax _on profits_. So the tax rate does not at all affect whether you or Apple are profitable. And as a small business owner, you are free to increase your salary, and then you don't pay any tax at all.
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Corporate income taxes are paid on profits. If they actually paid high salaries and made a lot of investments (i.e. expenses) there wouldn't be much profits.
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If I try to fight this unjust practice against SMEs here in Norway they'll just ignore me.
How is making a company pay the same tax that everyone else has to pay an unfair practice?
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Apple might have better luck after the Populist Revolution sweeps Europe this year.
It won't in Ireland. We have a centrist (or leftwing if you're American) minority government propped up by their biggest opponents, another centrist party. Irish people (notwithstanding recent terrorist history) are generally not fond of any form of extremism.
Some options (Score:5, Funny)
I know that people are working overtime at Apple to come up with this solution but here are some ideas for you:
- Giant novelty check
- Mountain of pennies
- Unsold Apple watches
- Briefcase full of "iBucks"
- "Hey what's that?!" *run away*
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That might cost more than $13B.
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- A giant novelty cheque would be cool. And it's still legal!
- A mountain of pennies (or cents, as we no longer have pennies in Ireland) would not be legal tender.: The following is an extract from the Economic and Monetary Union Act, 1998: “10(1) No person, other than the Central Bank of Ireland and such persons as may be designated by the Minister by order, shall be obliged to accept more than 50 coins denominated in euro or in cent in any single transaction.”. I suppose they _could_ do i
Does Ireland wan't the money? (Score:1)
Re:Does Ireland wan't the money? (Score:5, Insightful)
The very LAST thing Ireland really wants is to enforce this law. For good reason. Right now they get a bit of the cake, but they get a bit of the cake from everyone because every company, from Apple to Amazon to MS to Google, is hiding in their tax shelter.
If they now actually fold (and yes, that would be Ireland folding to EU pressure), what reason is there for them to stay in Ireland? The weather?
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The very LAST thing Ireland really wants is to enforce this law. For good reason. Right now they get a bit of the cake, but they get a bit of the cake from everyone because every company, from Apple to Amazon to MS to Google, is hiding in their tax shelter.
If they now actually fold (and yes, that would be Ireland folding to EU pressure), what reason is there for them to stay in Ireland? The weather?
They still have the lowest corporate tax in the EU at 12.5% the companies would just have to pay that instead of 0.02%.
Re:Does Ireland wan't the money? (Score:5, Interesting)
The very LAST thing Ireland really wants is to enforce this law. For good reason. Right now they get a bit of the cake, but they get a bit of the cake from everyone because every company, from Apple to Amazon to MS to Google, is hiding in their tax shelter.
If they now actually fold (and yes, that would be Ireland folding to EU pressure), what reason is there for them to stay in Ireland? The weather?
They still have the lowest corporate tax in the EU at 12.5% the companies would just have to pay that instead of 0.02%.
Plus Ireland already ARE enforcing the tax again. The scheme was found illegal by Ireland's own supreme court, Ireland just said: We didn't know it was illegal so were are not going to be charging back taxes on the error. Where as EU have found letters between Apple and Ireland discussion wether or not they would accept the legally wrong scheme, and since Ireland did, have said that is illegal state aid, and thus they must collect back taxes and not just new taxes.
The only reason Ireland is not happy to charge the back taxes is either: a) pride or b) corruption.. or maybe c) both.
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Still. Small steps, we're talking about a bureaucratic juggernaut, be glad that glacier it's moving at all.
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They don't pay the whole taxes on the profits they made in the countries where the business was conducted. They basically claim an outrageous amount of money on bogus "IP licensing" expenses to reduce their stated profits, paid to some other corporate shell entity they also own, which they then funnel through a place like Ireland where the "IP license" shell company is supposedly located which might have like a lawyer on retainer and a PO box.
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If they now actually fold (and yes, that would be Ireland folding to EU pressure)
"Fold" is a curious way of putting it. I mean I guess it fits, but it gives a rather odd impression. It's like saying you fold to pressure from the police not to do 90 in a 30 zone.
Or, actually, more like you fold to pressure from your landloard to pay rent.
Not the weather the language (Score:2)
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The fun part is that, come Brexit, English is potentially not going to be an official language of the EU anymore.
That's going to be interesting.
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Of course people will still know English and it will most likely still be used. The point is that it is no longer an official language. That pretty much means that you can neither hand in any documents in English nor will you be offered any in English, at least not officially.
That's not that big a deal for the Germans, Finns or Poles, they'll simply get their documents in German, Finnish or Polish. But how many officials from Ireland really know enough Irish to handle legal documents in that language?
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Even without the tax dodge, Ireland has one of the lowest corporation tax rates in the EU. And they speak English as a first language, which helps.
In fact some UK companies, particularly financial institutions, are looking at moving to Ireland now. It might not be as great as it once was, but it's still the cheapest way to be in the EU.
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They may speak English as their first language, but trust me, you understand the English of any Swede or Finn better than theirs.
Old Joke: The main difference between Swedes and Californians? They look? No, they look the same, but the Swedes speak the better English. Same with a lot of Irish.
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And what good is moving to London if you want to do business in the EU? Why do you think all those banks are fleeing?
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Ireland would like to keep Apple in Ireland even paying little to no tax, because of the amount of tax the support systems pay. If Ireland were forced by the EU to take 13 billion off Apple, then they will have to take it, but who knows what Apple's next move will be? They are moving a lot of operations from Luxemburg to Ireland, but that might all change if they have to start paying regular tax.
Ireland getting the $13 billion is a fiction (Score:2)
If Apple is forced to pay the $13 billion, Ireland is unlikely to see any of it. Firstly, other EU countries would go after Apple for a share and also Apple could declare the tax in the US instead.
https://www.theguardian.com/bu... [theguardian.com]
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I sure wish
Escrow (Score:5, Informative)
They missed a deadline to have the money in an escrow account. With the ongoing legal challenges, the money would stay in the escrow account until such time as it is decided whether they have to pay the taxes, or they can take the money back. This wasn't a deadline to pay the tax itself.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0... [www.rte.ie]
Re:Escrow (Score:5, Insightful)
And still, if this wasn't Apple but Paddy O'Random not paying his tax, he'd find his home raided and emptied out tonight.
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You need more storage room, otherwise the procedure can be extrapolated.
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Yeah, adding a few zeros is probably beyond the capability of Apple computers...
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No. The EU is civilized.
The EU makes your country do it for them.
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The EU is going to raid an Irish citizen's home because they don't like the amount of tax he and the Irish government agreed he should pay?
Actually that would be Irish Tax and Customs that would do the raiding.
The EU collects from states, states collect from individuals and companies.
Margrethe's bar. (Score:1)
She must at least have one king size Tullamore Dew in her bar cabinet by now.
What's "tricky" about it? (Score:1)
It's not like you have to stuff greenbacks into coffers, you ain't bribing politicians to avoid taxes, you're paying taxes. I know you're not used to this, Apple, but trust me, this can be done by a simple wire transfer.
Cough up the dough! Under normal circumstances a horde of officials would now storm your house and steal everything in sight but a bed and maybe a TV. Why not this time? Tax officials are usually not very approachable when it comes to seizures.
European Union's competition (Score:2)
European Union's competition said
Eh? Editors edit much?
fuck Apple (Score:1, Troll)
Can't pay my sales tax on these items (Score:2)
It's not tricky at all (Score:3)
Even Al Capone learned, that either you pay your taxes or you go to jail.
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But later Al Capone came back from the dead and ruled over New California...
Trivial solution (Score:3)
Just treat it like any normal tax agency would treat it with late fees calculated on a prorated monthly basis.
If they were looking at 1B Euro penalties I'm pretty sure they'd have paid on time.
Forcing both sides (Score:2)
Last year, the Commission ruled that Ireland must recover 13 billion euros in "illegal tax benefits" from Apple.
Ireland had to be forced to collect these taxes. They didn't want to do it.
The whole thing is weird.
A la Run DMC (Score:2)
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It's tricky to pay a dime, to pay a dime that's right on time. It's TRICKY!
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"I'm sure Apple is quite pleased that an EU commission can decide laws for Ireland and decide if Irish laws are "legal" or not."
I don't think anyone cares what Apple thinks, after all it was the democratic will of the Irish people that allowed that power to be handed to the EU in the first place, and it's within the grasp of the democratic will of the Irish people to choose to leave too.
But given that Ireland was an irrelevant poverty stricken backwater for pretty much it's entire history up until more mode
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If Ireland wants to exit the EU then sure, have fun being an irrelevant poverty stricken backwater, again.
We don't. We're not Britain. Nor are we stupid. Ireland is what it is _because_ of it's membership in the EU. We all know this.
However, we will fight for our rights of sovereignty, and our rights to set our own laws, as laid down by EU law and all of the various treaties that make up the bloc. While I think that we should take the money and that we did things wrong, I understand why the Government is fighting the EU on this. It's an important fight, even if ultimate we lose it (and are forced to accep
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However, we will fight for our rights of sovereignty, and our rights to set our own laws, as laid down by EU law and all of the various treaties that make up the bloc.
You explicitly penned away the right to do what you're doing here.
I understand why the Government is fighting the EU on this.
Yes, because there's a lot of money involved.
(and are forced to accept the money - heaven's forbid!).
There's a story about a goose and golden eggs you might consider revisiting — it's not a perfect match, but it's close enough to get the point, I hope.
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You explicitly penned away the right to do what you're doing here.
The EU maintains that Ireland gave Apple preferential tax treatment that was not available to others and thus amounts to a subsidy which Apple must now repay. We agreed not to give subsidies under EU treaty.
Ireland maintains that we put in place an attractive tax regime available to all to encourage FDI. This is allowed under EU treaty and law, and in fact is used by all EU nations.
So if the EU are right, we get roughly 13 billion in back taxes from Apple. If the EU are wrong (which I believe they are) then
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I keep hearing variations on that line with regards to Brexit (though the same would apply for any EU country sick of the EU's games, Ireland included), and just don't "get" it...
The US has free trade agreements with plenty of countries, despite not having given those countries the slightest hint of power to dictate what US law can or cannot do domestically. Why would a (former) EU country not have the abili
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Because most of its trading partners are in the EU.
You don't shit in your boss's yard. You might not get your next paycheck.
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What do trade deals have to do with this?
Ireland signed away their rights to make discriminatory tax deals when they joined the EU. That was part of the cost of getting the benefits of joining the EU. Why should they be allowed to ignore those parts of the membership laws that they later decided were inconvenient?
You must keep in mind that in joining the EU member nations agree to surrender some of their sovereignty to a higher authority. It's not quite so extreme as for states within the US, but there a
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Well, the quote to which I responded said "We're leaving the EU, but we still need you to give us free trade".
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That has nothing to do with taxes and nothing to do with
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I accidentally modded down. Posting to erase. Absolutely insane. Whether you agree with a country's tax schemes, a sovereign nation has the right to decide these issues for themselves. More incomprehensible to me is why any sovereign would agree to such external interference in the first place. The benefits of being in a free-trade zone, no matter how lucrative, are not worth handing your balls over to Brussels. Money should not be worth more than dignity.
Re:Yeah, Apple is so happy that Ireland didn't IRE (Score:4, Insightful)
I accidentally modded down. Posting to erase. Absolutely insane. Whether you agree with a country's tax schemes, a sovereign nation has the right to decide these issues for themselves.
This idiotic bullshit "sovereignty" meme needs to die.
Being able to do whatever the fuck you like while everyone deals with you as if you're nice is not the definition of sovereignty.
Ireland agreed to not give state aid as a condition of being in the single market and the EU. They are sovereign because they can give state aid whenever and however they like, but they won't get to keep being in the EU.
You know what? Being sovereign is not being given cool shit while you act like a dick. It means people won't start shooting at you for things like that. Ireland is sovereign because no one will shoot at them if they say "fuck you" to the EU. Florida, Arkansas, Alabama etc are not sovereign: last time they tried to leave, some other people started shooting at them until they stopped. Ireland is free to invoke Article 50 (or just leave the club by fiat) any time they want and not a single shot will be fired.
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Ireland agreed to not give state aid as a condition of being in the single market and the EU. They are sovereign because they can give state aid whenever and however they like, but they won't get to keep being in the EU.
Sounds like a plan with no drawbacks to me. They can come begging when it becomes obvious that they fucked up. But all this hemming and hawing is bullshit. Make a decision and live with it. Drawing it out for years and years only permits bad people to continue to do bad things.
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Ireland has the right to set it's own tax rates. The EU is full of it on this issue.
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Ireland has the right to set it's own tax rates.
Yes it does, and the EU won't stop it. It doesn't have the right to set its tax rates to give state aid to Apple while remaining in the EU. While it stays in the EU, the EU will tell it that it must stick to the rules agreed.
Sovereignty is not getting shot at when you set your own taxes. It's *not* being able to renage on agreements without having the other side stop their obligations.
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The EU isn't a dictatorial authority, this issue will be settled in court.
Um yeah?
But I'm pretty confident Ireland can have one general tax rate for corporations, and different rates for corporations locating savings or intellectual property in Ireland, since those activities don't generate any costs for the Irish government.
I expect so. What they're not allowed to while remaining in the EU do is have one rate for Apple. If they have a preferential rate, it has to be open in principle to anyone.
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Ireland signed restrictions to that right when joining the EU. They have every right to leave the EU and set their taxes any way they want. Then the EU will have the right to impose import tariffs on the companies that get a favourable deal from Ireland.
That's the way the world works.
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I like the analogy regarding unity and sovereignty as state vs federal jurisdictions so I'm stealing this thought process, but I'm going to claim it as original on my part.
Thanks.
Why would Ireland leave in a Fiat? (Score:2)
It's a small country, but it isn't THAT small.
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Uh, that's not true. The confederate states declared their successions starting in the November of Lincoln's election, and formed the Confederacy in February. it wasn't until they attacked Fort Sumter in April that the Union responded.
Uh that's not true either. Mine was a simplification to make a point. You're making out like the union sat around doing nothing until the confederates fired a shot. That's not true either.
Remember when progressives went ape sh*t over the US invading a "sovereign Iraq"?
I rememb
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Uh, that's not true. The confederate states declared their successions starting in the November of Lincoln's election, and formed the Confederacy in February. it wasn't until they attacked Fort Sumter in April that the Union responded.
Uh that's not true either. Mine was a simplification to make a point. You're making out like the union sat around doing nothing until the confederates fired a shot. That's not true either.
Actually, yes, it is true. Until the firing of Fort Sumter, Lincoln's strategy was to pretend the articles of secession did not exist. Until his death, his position was that the seceding states had never left the union as a matter of legal fact.
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No, it really isn't true.
Look here: thre's a whole timeline of events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
You're making out that a bunch of states seceded then nothing happened until they attacked on April 12 1861. That ignores the negotiating and military preparation on both sides.
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I accidentally modded down. Posting to erase. Absolutely insane. Whether you agree with a country's tax schemes, a sovereign nation has the right to decide these issues for themselves. More incomprehensible to me is why any sovereign would agree to such external interference in the first place. The benefits of being in a free-trade zone, no matter how lucrative, are not worth handing your balls over to Brussels. Money should not be worth more than dignity.
Except that being part of a trade agreement includes actually having to follow the rules as outlined as part of the agreement that you agreed to. If you didn't want to give up taxation autonomy then that should have been negotiated as part of the deal or you never should have signed it in the first place. In this case, Ireland gave up those rights to be part of the EU trading block and are trying to do an end-around the parts that they don't like.
For example, there have been many arguments in the NAFTA tr
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Ireland has the right to set it's own tax rates.
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The EU decided to harmonize tax laws across the union to avoid exactly this, member states racing their corporate taxes to the bottom in an attempt to attract international companies.
In other words, you want to sell all over the union to the same conditions, you will produce all over the union to the same conditions.
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No, the EU has NOT harmonized tax codes. The EU declared that they want to harmonize tax codes and setup the usual commission to study doing so. The commission has as much chance of actually doing so as cold fusion has of solving global warming.
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Actually, you want the corporate income tax rate to be zero. It's a tax on investment and job creation. When profits are paid to the owners through dividends or capital gains is when you want to tax. Taxing retained earnings reinvested in the business is like a farmer eating his seed corn.
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The only time a job is created is when people buy more than a manufacturer can produce with his current capacity. Nobody employs anyone he doesn't absolutely have to.
If you want to look at a job creator, look in the mirror when you spend money on consumer goods.
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Not only the nationalists. The EU was a very welcome scapegoat to push unpopular laws into existence. If there wasn't a soccer championship to hide the voting behind, politicians would just use the old "We don't want to pass those laws, but the evil EU makes us!" spiel.
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What a ridiculous comparison. You have no idea about Nazism, do you?
The EU is an organization, like the WTO, NATO, UN. If you qualify, you can join and enjoy its perks. But you also have to abide by the rules. Ireland seems to think it can enjoy all the perks of EU membership and play by its own rules.
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Last year, the Commission ruled that Ireland must recover 13 billion euros in, asshole.
Old joke.