Ireland Will Bring the Fight Over Apple Taxes To the EU Court (digitaltrends.com) 71
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Digital Trends: The tax debate between Apple, Ireland, and the European Union may escalate in the next few months. According to recent reports, the Irish Finance Minister, Michael Noonan, will bring the debate to the EU court, a move that could trigger a years-long court battle. The battle stems from a European Commission finding that Ireland had been giving Apple tax breaks, something that has attracted a number of multinational employers to Ireland. The EU, however, has ordered the practices to change. After a three-year probe into Ireland's relationship with Apple, the European Commission ordered Ireland to collect $14.5 billion in back taxes from the company. That is the largest state-aid payback demand in history. The decision has been the subject of criticism, particularly from this side of the Atlantic. The U.S. Treasury Department says the decision is a threat "to undermine foreign investment, the business climate in Europe, and the important spirit of economic partnership between the U.S. and the EU." Apple has also vowed to fight against the EU decision, and those appeals will follow the ones already pending in Luxembourg, where the EU is headquartered. Those pending appeals include cases against Starbucks.
Now, those are some docile politicians! (Score:3, Insightful)
No wonder all the shifty companies want to register in Ireland!
Re: Now, those are some docile politicians! (Score:1)
I think I'm done with apple. Supporting these corrupt companies - the trumps of the world is wrong. Moreso, their products are scams now.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Now, those are some docile politicians! (Score:4, Funny)
These tech companies overwhelmingly supported Hillary, not Trump. She's the darling of Wall Street and Silicon Valley.
Indeed. Here is an exhaustive list of everyone in Silicon Valley who supported Donald Trump:
1. Peter Thiel
Re:Funny (Score:5, Insightful)
The EU is a commonwealth among nations. One deal is that members refrain from competing unfairly against each other. The EU actually enforces these deals. Who would have thought.
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Re: Funny (Score:2, Informative)
You are a tax cheat
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As a business owner I haven't paid myself a salary in years, I put everything back into business.
What do you use to pay for food and shelter then?
Re:Funny (Score:5, Funny)
What do you use to pay for food and shelter then?
You obviously have no background in small business accounting.
He sleeps in his home office (which has a spare bed) and he eats at business meetings with his partner/spouse, and his contractors/children.
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That case generally does not present itself because the person telling you what to pay as salary knows the rules well, applies them with a narrow margin, and is trusted by his superiors. It is rare for these rulings to be overturned - though I assure you it does occasionally happen!
The case with Apple might be different. From what I remember(!) reading last time this was in the news, both the Apple lawyers as well as the Irish tax authority could be expected to know this deal was crossing the line, and proc
Re: Funny (Score:2)
The back taxes are only back till the point where the investigation was lauched plus statute of limitations. If Apple failed to make contingencies in case they lost the case that would be stupid of them. Here in the UK Her Majesties Revenue and Customs can at any point decide to investigate you tax affairs going back 7 years and if you have not been doing it right demand the extra tax plus interest. Why you think Apple should be held to a different standard is beyond me.
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Collecting back taxes from the point where the investigation started sounds fair though, and I was not aware that this was the case.
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The amount of money involved is far beyond anything a tax ruling could cover unless it was approved by the government (which means approved by the cabinet) and even then the Supreme Court could probably overturn it. Apple would likely have more lawyers and accountants then Ireland and just like me they would know this full well. They knew they got an insane and illegal deal and what is really stupid is that if they had done exactly what they did without asking for any ruling they wouldn't be in this situa
Re:Funny (Score:4, Insightful)
Nations also sign treaties. Treaties usually result in laws being passed. Otherwise the other nations who sign the treaty just ignores you and kicks you out of the treaty.
One of the most fundamental concepts in civil law is contracts, and treaties are just contracts between nation states. Break any contract you sign in good faith and tell me how it goes.
Re: Funny (Score:1)
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Funny (Score:-1, Insightful)
Yeah, that is funny...
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...unelected bureaucrats...
I get tired of hearing this one.
Yes, they're unelected but they're appointed by their respective member states. If you have a problem with how your government's representative is acting, or with the laws they're drafting and voting up, then take it up with your own government because it's your own democratically elected government who put them there.
Take it up with your own EU commissioner too, because they're the ones who should be out in public promoting the ideals of the union - such as they are - and g
The US Treasury REALLY meant to say (Score:3, Funny)
'this is a threat to the US collecting taxes on this revenue, it belongs to the US keep you're dirty hands off it!'
Re: The US Treasury REALLY meant to say (Score:2, Informative)
The US gets nothing. That's the whole point of the double Irish tax fraud scheme.
Typical (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically the Irish Elites are the petty bourgeoisie of the globalist over-class. They provide Apple etc, with nigh 0% tax environment, and in return receive near San Francisco level salary levels in the city of Dublin, which by rights should have a wage level closer to Manchester.
This is about money, and the ruling class here will do anything to keep their hands on it. If Apple asked them to dig up Croke Park they'd probably do it.
Irish Brexit? (Score:1)
With news like this, suddenly the Irish will be interested in their own Brexit.
Re:Irish Brexit? (Score:4, Insightful)
With news like this, suddenly the Irish will be interested in their own Brexit.
No.. That would make them even more dirt poor than they already are from not collecting their taxes.
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Ireland gave tax breaks to lure foreign investment in their country while also creating jobs for their citizens. In the US states and municipalities try to attract companies using the same method. It was done openly. This also was not illegal or prohibited by the EU myriad of laws and rules. In this case the EU bureaucrats and paper pushers are trying to re-interpret the existing rules covering this situation and then apply penalties retroactively.
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In this case the EU bureaucrats and paper pushers are trying to re-interpret the existing rules covering this situation
You mean they're actually doing something in favour of the tax payer for once? Something that they should have done years ago.
and then apply penalties retroactively.
All penalties are retroactive. You don't get penalised for something you're yet to do.
Shady (Score:4, Insightful)
screw crApple (Score:4, Insightful)
FTA:
No it's not. Try Brussels in Belgium.
Hope the court nails the sweetheart deal between Apple and the Irish taxman.
It hasn't just cost the Irish but every other consumer in the EU who has bought iCrap. All the profits go back to Ireland where they're essentially not taxed but squirrelled away by Apple. Apple stockholders win but EU citizens get screwed.
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I already answered this about 10,000 times, I don't want any government doing anything, from infrastructure, to health care, to education, to money, to insurance, to police, to fire, anything even including defence (should be done privately with a private company being hired to do so and has to be paid upfront with war bonds if necessary). Nothing should be done by any government whatsoever.
Re:screw crApple (Score:5, Insightful)
roman_mir excretes:
You're highly delusional. On this side of the Atlantic we pay our taxes and we like it.
When we're ill, unemployed, disabled, homeless etc. the government steps in to help us. That's the unwritten contract we have with our European governments.
Compare and contrast with the US where you have a large underclass of people, who if they're not in prison, cannot afford proper healthcare, food or housing. I'll take the European approach, thank you very much.
Apple, by paying less than 1% of their European profits in tax force everybody else to pay more tax. If I set up business in Ireland, do you think I'll pay less than 1% on my corporate profits?
Answer: No, because I couldn't afford the backhanders to get such a deal.
The self-serving retard that is Tim Cook doesn't seem to understand that concept [apple.com].
BTW, Tim Cook is toast. Just a matter of time until the street realises he hasn't produced anything useful during his reign. On the contrary, he's turned some good stuff into garbage eg. Macbook Pro, OSX.
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EU citizens are not screwed.
How could they?
If Ireland is taxing Apple different it has no meaning at all for EU citizens or any other country in the EU.
Note: the tax would go to Irelands state, not to the EU or any other EU country.
Re: screw crApple (Score:3, Insightful)
Because if Ireland was correctly collecting the taxes they would be paying more into the EU coffers and getting less from them.
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Ireland is actually collecting the taxes correctly. Because: it is all going according the law there :D
Regarding your idea of payments, sorry ... the amount of taxes is peanuts in relation to what they pay into the EU or get out of it.
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The law there is however in contravention of the rules they agreed to when joining the EEC/EU. And while the taxes if collected in line with the EU rules would only make a small difference to Irelands net contribution to the EU it would make a difference and it would be in favour of the rest of the EU. I tell you what you can just send me 5 EUR because it's not much so it does not matter.
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I'm not aware of any such EU tax rules.
Otherwise they would go for other countries, too, e.g. Netherlands.
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If Ireland is taxing Apple different it has no meaning at all for EU citizens or any other country in the EU.
Note: the tax would go to Irelands state, not to the EU or any other EU country.
If Ireland was taxing Apple in a comparable fashion there would be no reason for Apple to have it's taxable income registered in Ireland instead of the location it is actually being generated in
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Apple (and others) moved their offices to Ireland precisely for these tax benefits, While you could certainly argue it is fair and legitimate ( I don't believe it is), there is absolutely no doubt that other European countries are being royally fucked by this deal as apple funnels all cash to this sub meaning no local taxes.
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FTA:
No it's not. Try Brussels in Belgium.
Umm... the EU Commission is in Brussels, Belgium, yes. The EU Parliament is in Strasbourg, France. And the EU Court, which this is about, is indeed in Luxembourg City, Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg.
Anyone surprised? (Score:1)
If Ireland can't keep the scam, sorry, "tax model" rolling, the country is the next that's due for a Greek treatment.
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The EU treaty says "don't give favourable deals" and Ireland did just that: How are they going to argue the treaty doesn't apply?
Because it wasn't an Apple-specific "favourable deal". It was a straight interpretation of the Irish tax laws, the Irish rules for company registration ,and the interaction between the tax laws of other EU jurisdictions. It was available to any other company, and indeed many other companies took advantage of it.
There were two specific issues that were troublesome - one was Irish the other was not. Neither involved the corporate tax rate.
The Irish loophole was allowing the Irish registration of non-resident
this will actually be interesting (Score:2)
...as it may set a major precedent regarding the sustainability of the EU.
Because, as we all should know by now, the crucial key to any long standing political enterprise is: who controls the MONEY.
Of course the corollary to money in a geopolitical context is...sovereignty.
Ireland, if it's actually a sovereign state, should be able to set its own tax policies. Now if it is in a voluntary agreement with the EU to deprecate it's otherwise-sovereign power for the good of the EU megastate, that's fine. But if
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You can't allow a precedent to be set where a company gains an unfair competitive advantage due to illegal arrangements with a government even if it is the governments fault for agreeing to it. Otherwise you open the doors wide to corruption where companies get the Government to do these dodgy deals knowing it is the tax payer that will wear the cost not them.
The definiton of a honest cop (Score:5, Insightful)
By that definition, Ireland is being an honest cop for Apple (and various other large corporate tax dodgers).