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China Businesses Intel Security United States Apple IT Technology

It's Official: NSA Spying Is Hurting the US Tech Economy 270

Posted by samzenpus from the who's-to-blame dept.
An anonymous reader writes China is backing away from U.S. tech brands for state purchases after NSA revelations, according to Reuters. This confirms what many U.S. technology companies have been saying for the past year: the activities by the NSA are harming their businesses in crucial growth markets, including China. From the article: "A new report confirmed key brands, including Cisco, Apple, Intel, and McAfee -- among others -- have been dropped from the Chinese government's list of authorized brands, a Reuters report said Wednesday. The number of approved foreign technology brands fell by a third, based on an analysis of the procurement list. Less than half of those companies with security products remain on the list."
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It's Official: NSA Spying Is Hurting the US Tech Economy More

It's Official: NSA Spying Is Hurting the US Tech Economy

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  • McAfee? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:19PM (#49130725)

    What the hell does McAfee do to earn money, why the hell it is still alive, and what makes it a key company? Seriously, what.

    • Re:McAfee? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lunix Nutcase ( 1092239 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:21PM (#49130749)

      They sell malware for computer OEMs to preinstall. Also for some reason the US government loves the product.

    • McAfee makes new computers run like shit. Intel and AMD pay them. If Chinese computer users get more than 10% of the CPU they paid for McAfee has failed at their job.

    • Re:McAfee? (Score:5, Informative)

      by amicusNYCL ( 1538833 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @06:03PM (#49131915)

      Well, since you asked seriously, they are the world's largest dedicated security technology company, now wholly owned by Intel, and their antivirus software still ranks in the top 10 in a lot of reviews. That's what they do to earn money, anyway.

      • Top 10 sellers? No doubt. Among the best 10? Not a chance.

        More basically, I don't understand how anybody can trust them. The current version might no longer be properly called 'a virus', but they are still a former virus writing company. That can _never_ change.

      • Top 10? In units sold maybe. Certainly not in performance. Neither in speed, nor detection, nor ... anything. Unless "turns an i7 into an i386" becomes something we consider important in such a software.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dbIII ( 701233 )
          There's a lot of OEM bundling of it which still counts as a sale, and also makes it a default option for continuing sales.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jafac ( 1449 )

        Nice try, John.

  • Of course they are (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:22PM (#49130759)
    The Chinese government only wants their own backdoors in technology used internally, not ours.

    • Re:Of course they are (Score:5, Insightful)

      by NatasRevol ( 731260 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:41PM (#49131011) Journal

      Just like the NSA.

      Can you blame them?

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Aighearach ( 97333 )

      Yes, interestingly the US customers are also backing away from Chinese products for the same reasons the Chinese are backing away from American products. So who is hurt again? All you have to do to see who this hurts and who it benefits is to look at the trade balance. Since Americans buy more Chinese stuff than Chinese buy American stuff, it seems to me the obvious answer is that it will help the US "tech economy."

      Also, most of the American exports are not commodity items that can be replaced, but factory

      • Yes, interestingly the US customers are also backing away from Chinese products for the same reasons the Chinese are backing away from American products. So who is hurt again?

        Quite possibly both. It's only likely to 'balance out' if there's an American product equivalent for every Chinese product, and vice-versa.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dbIII ( 701233 )

        Also, most of the American exports are not commodity items that can be replaced

        Keep on telling yourself that until you notice that those 5 axis milling machines have "made in China" plates on them.

        • I didn't say, "all manufacturing equipment is made in the USA," so I'm not sure what your point is. Your comment implies it is identifying an error in my analysis, yet the substance fails to raise any point.

    • And this is why its so sad that the NSA did this. The US could have grabbed a lot of the market if we could have assured users that our equipment was trustworthy. It would have taken some time, but eventually we would have grabbed market share from China. Now that everyone assumes both countries are spying on their hardware, we no longer have that competitive advantage.

  • If it's built there the Chinese government has access to it; even if it isn't brand name but "OEM." In this case, refusing to buy while backdating the tech is a good PR move that will play well with their populace; so there is no downside to this move.

  • Good (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:32PM (#49130885)

    And remember that this will not change. If you buy U.S brands of electronic devices, you WILL be spied upon. The U.S has long since stopped being a country to trust and rely on, and the U.S and its exported products are now something we should instead be wary of.

    • china should only buy gentoo .. and then maybe include some tofu and soy sauce .. aind do some tai chi with it .. problem solved . who needs cisco and mccofee anyways ..

    • What's the alternative? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:58PM (#49131207) Journal

      Remember, the alternatives suck also. The recent revelations are that most if not all countries are dirty liars when it comes to spying.

      • who's spying (Score:4, Insightful)

        by schlachter ( 862210 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @05:11PM (#49131381)

        Each product spec sheet should include a list of all countries that will be spying on you as a result of your purchase. Then you can compare various models and decide who would make you most happy if they were to know everything about you. Customer transparency. Customer choice. Even Apple can get behind that!

    • Re:Good (Score:5, Interesting)

      by TheGratefulNet ( 143330 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @06:04PM (#49131921)

      and now that everyone 'knows' the nsa has exceeded their charter, the problem will be fixed and all will return to normal.

      no? you don't agree?

      neither do I! we'll NEVER be able to know, for sure, if they have disbanded, continued or even increased their hidden powers.

      they can say 'ok, you caught us, we'll start following the law again' but even congresscritters won't know for sure. anyone who does know for sure, will NOT be telling us any truth about it, either.

      so, what do you have from this? complete and permanent lack of trust in the three letter agencies in the US, and the equivalent ones overseas in pretty much every country.

      why even talk about this anymore? those that have this power won't ever give it up, we will continue to be kept in the dark and nothing will change for the better.

      cat is out of the bag, won't get back in and now we all have to live with cats, everywhere. so to to speak.

    • The U.S has long since stopped being a country to trust and rely on, and the U.S and its exported products are now something we should instead be wary of.

      So, what is it you suggest instead? Buying from and trusting your country? Which one is it? What country is both so trustworthy that we should believe the rants of ACs and is also able to manufacture enough to meet the demand for goods across the whole world?

      People should be equally wary of stupid crap like you posted.

  • Nononono... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:38PM (#49130981)

    ... it's Snowdens fault for telling, not the NSA's fault for spying...

  • The obvious capitalist solution (Score:4, Funny)

    by sdinfoserv ( 1793266 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @04:54PM (#49131153)
    Move manufacturing out of China... it's simple. They won't buy apple goods, move the 1 MILLION FOXCONN apple workers to a different country. That will get someones attention... quickly
    • And risk having to fairly compensate sweatshop workers or at least treat them well? Let's not get crazy here.

      • Baby steps; the first step is to use component manufacturers in Taiwan. Though yes, eventually tech component manufacturer will be one of the many, many things that the tech business landscape will need to reconcile while not jeopardizing civilization. That means no tech product hyperinflation, and a minimum on sweatshop hunting.

        The way I see it, China is going to continue on this tack, which was probably planned years or decades ago (hmmm, 5-year plan, I remember hearing that terminology somewhere...).

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dbIII ( 701233 )

          Baby steps; the first step is to use component manufacturers in Taiwan.

          Easily done, after all many outsource to mainland China so volume won't be a problem.
          Next?

        • What can I say? When you are right, you are damn right. That is irresponsible. You make me want to thank China for bringing up the topic. We need to be cautious that overall we don't damage the extent to which China economically benefits from their relationship with us though because not staying on friendly terms with the sleeping dragon is somewhere in the realm of Nero level insane.

          I wonder if it would be possible to offshore overall fewer jobs to China specifically but for the same net cost of the

    • Re:The obvious capitalist solution (Score:4, Informative)

      by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @06:00PM (#49131875)

      It's [247wallst.com] already [forbes.com] happening. [latimes.com]

  • Cue the NSA... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by msauve ( 701917 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @05:00PM (#49131233)
    Bets on how long until an NSA apologist like Mike Rogers or Peter King issues a "blame the messenger" (Snowden) statement?

  • This is hilarious... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by duck_rifted ( 3480715 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @05:05PM (#49131295)
    I like how they pretend that this was only just revealed to them when so many products by those brands are assembled in China, and the backdoors are installed at the factory (according to recent news). They knew this all along, so they're not doing this for security reasons. They're doing it so that US businesses will pressure the NSA to stop, and then if it succeeds, China will have the upper hand in espionage.

    In every other conceivable respect, this isn't funny at all. It's just that they think we'll fall for that, and for the most part, we are. But neither these businesses nor the NSA will. The end result will be that China will start buying these products again and it will be spun to us as the result of some kind of breakthrough negotiation. I give it a year, but they might pull a headline grabber and make it happen sooner if it was primarily a bid for lower prices all along.

    • Re:This is hilarious... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) * on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @06:56PM (#49132449) Homepage Journal

      Do you have any proof that China systematically back-doors hardware before it leaves the country? I have not seen any, just lots of innuendo from US companies trying to make out that China is as bad as they are and you are screwed either way.

      The US is exceptionally bad. It spends more money spying on people than anyone else. It has more extensive programmes than anyone else we know of, except perhaps the UK who they are close partners with. Let's not pretend that everyone is as bad, because they are not. There is zero evidence that China installs backdoors in routers or hard drive firmware before they go through customs, for example, while we have photos of the US doing it.

      China is bad, but all the evidence suggests that the US is worse. Most of us prefer an evidence based approach to our paranoia.

      • China is bad, but all the evidence suggests that the US is worse.

        Maybe China is just much better at preventing the Chinese Edward Snowdens from exposing China programs.

        • Bingo. There's a big difference between a culture with a history of executing dissidents and one where everybody is raised to prize freedom and the courage to do what's right even at a high personal cost. The Chinese version of Snowden would be more likely to sell secrets to other intelligence agencies or hackers. That our government right away suspected that Snowden did so demonstrates that as a general rule, that would be the expectation.
      • Your question is strangely phrased. I haven't and wouldn't suggest that China is installing back doors, as that would implicate the Chinese government. Let's back up a bit though so you're with me here.

        Have we forgotten all of the articles about router backdoors installed at the factory? Remember the Cisco stories? We already know the NSA installs their back doors at the factory. That's not news. Besides having been told this before, where would it be more feasible to accomplish this? Should we ha
        • Damn autocorrect. "Nothing about this is all that serious" should say MYSTERIOUS. Of course it's serious. I need to impose a rule upon myself that I never wrestle with autocorrect before my first cup of coffee.
    • Protectionism is also a huge factor, China constantly decries other countries as being "protectionist", meanwhile they are one of the most protectionist countries on the planet. The spying just gives them another excuse to claim that they aren't *REALLY* violating WTO rules, they are just protecting themselves(if the spying thing hadn't come up, some other excuse would have)

    • They're doing it so that US businesses will pressure the NSA to stop, and then if it succeeds, China will have the upper hand in espionage.

      Boo fucking hoo. If the NSA had not abused its privileges, they would not be in this position now. They should have stuck to their job instead of trying so hard to become Big Brother. This could potentially tumble America into destruction. They should have thought of that before they started this bullshit.

  • hackers oligarchs & thugs (Score:3, Interesting)

    by globaljustin ( 574257 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @05:18PM (#49131461) Journal

    I'm 100% in favor of strict NSA accountability, but it's wrong to blame the NSA as if they aren't at least partially working for the right reasons.

    Blame hackers, oligarchs, and wannabe international gangsters first and foremost. The NSA must be held accountable with hardcore oversight, but we need law enforcement and defense.

    Also, the tone of this article is weird, it seems to put China as some kind of arbiter of global trade ethics:

    Cisco, Apple, Intel, and McAfee -- among others -- have been dropped from the Chinese government's list of authorized brands,

    China's government is a totalitarian, freedom depriving monolith. The people of China are victims.

    I see the angle, when we put spyware in tech like this there are consequences and it's probably overreach by the NSA, but TFA is criticizing from the wrong angle.

    China is not a threat to us. That's the core misunderstanding. How many books, blog posts, articles by Thomas Friedman have there been about the "China Rising" nonsense? We don't owe China like a bank...they ***invested in the US*** by buying our bonds...you don't invest in something you are trying to destroy.

    China's financial sovlency depends on the US's ability to honor our bonds. They hitched their wagons to our economy.

    Also, China is a pollution wasteland. Human and chemical. Their disasterous one child policy has ruined the population balance of a generation and they have to run their city marathons in smog so thick it's visible at ground level.

    I want the US to be a good influence on China. I want our policies to promote them making the right decisions for their people.

    • Re:hackers oligarchs & thugs (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Moof123 ( 1292134 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @05:34PM (#49131607)

      For a long time the intelligence community has been putting capability well ahead of results. From my meager experience I would guess that most of these capabilities produce little actual actionable results. More likely tese are a direct result of having to keep showing really cool possibilities to keep their fiefdom funded. Actual results driven funding would reault in much more human level intelligence, but that is hard and not sexy.

      • Eh? The results are clear and effective. General Petraeus and Mr. Spitzer found out the hard way.

        I would be surprised if these capabilities were not abused to blackmail or otherwise coerce leaders of industry and members of congress.

        Someone has a LOT of power at their fingertips now because of these "programs". People are getting hurt already.

  • Snowden (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 2ms ( 232331 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @06:29PM (#49132189)

    Let's not be naive and think that China doesn't try just as hard to spy on the US as the US does on China. If Chinese etc firms have come to realize that the extent the NSA is able to spy on them is greater than they previously thought, Snowden is the reason, not the spying itself, of course.

    • Your first sentence makes sense.

      But this isn't just about Chinese firms ditching US products because of something they read in the Snowden gazette. The Chinese government has altered the allowed purchasing list for government related purchases. (Pray they don't alter it any further.)

      Snowden only provided evidence of what pretty much anyone with half a brain already suspected was happening. Do you somehow think that someone in the Chinese intelligence community didn't already know about this and that without

  • The Chinese can do more ... (Score:3)

    by CaptainDork ( 3678879 ) on Wednesday February 25, 2015 @08:34PM (#49133111)

    ... to affect change than the American citizen, because, well, money.

  • I don't really trust my own government. What on Earth should I trust yours? Growing up, I generally thought of the USA as the good guys. Nowadays, not so much. I'm not sure there are any good guys.

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