Schiller Says Apple Is the Last PC Maker From the Mac Era, Forgets About HP 474
An anonymous reader writes "Philip Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide marketing, recently claimed that Apple is the only computer company left from the early days of the Mac. Unfortunately for him, HP still exists. "Every company that made computers when we started the Mac, they're all gone," Schiller told Macworld in an interview on Apple's Cupertino campus. 'We're the only one left.' I'm sorry Apple, but when exactly did HP declare bankruptcy? We contacted an HP spokesperson for a statement on Apple's ridiculous claim and were pointed to its timeline history page."
!HP (Score:5, Insightful)
Comparing today's HP to the HP of the 80s, I'm inclined to side with Schiller.
Re:!HP (Score:4, Insightful)
Doing the same comparison on Apple yields the same results.
Woz must be turning in his grave.
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Woz is alive. Jobs has passed.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Well, that's better than the other way around.
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Because saying "died" is less polite.
Re:!HP (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you thinking of Apple of the 70s? Woz was basically out by 1981.
Apple today is very much like Apple of the early Mac years: building computers that are small, easy, and appliance-like.
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Samsung is Korean, they're the ones with the fabs Apple uses. TSMC (Taiwan) will be getting some of their business in the future (contracts have been signed to split 14nm A9 production between Samsung and TSMC), but they're not doing that yet.
Now, for actual factories, those are in China. But not the semiconductor fabs.
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Woz must be turning in his grave.
When did Woz die?
I'm no Apple fan, the only Apple I've owned is an Apple 2 (that fired up just fine last time I plugged it in). But I would certainly take an Apple product over some piece-of-shit Dell or HP crapware. My current laptop is a Thinkpad...
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HP is essentially a different company, as it split itself into pieces. Agilent is the real HP. The company with that name today only has some of the original buildings. Whereas Apple has remained the same company all along; it grew and evolved but it never split off its core business and attached the name to some minor sideline instead.
Re:!HP (Score:5, Insightful)
Assuming you don't count the whole messy business with NeXt- i.e., Jobs leaving, founding a competing company, Apple heading to the point of bankruptcy, buying NeXt in a sort of reverse takeover in which the NeXt board (i.e. Jobs) takes control of the company, replacing their entire product line (Mac OS) with NeXt products. And then, of course, switching their primary business model to selling audio players and phones, with their major revenue source being a content distribution platform.
So yeah, definitely exactly the same company as existed in 1986.
I still take your point, but it's disingenuous to pretend that Apple hasn't been through the corporate meat grinder just as much as any other long-lived company.
Re:!HP (Score:4, Informative)
Schiller's wrong, but HP isn't the company which exists from that era. It's Compaq, they just call themselves HP.
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Yeah coz HP is OLDER.
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HP made PCs long before that [wikipedia.org]. Are you nuts? They have been around longer than Apple.
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Re:!HP (Score:4, Informative)
The company I worked for back then owned five of them. So I can tell you without a doubt that it was nor just a concept piece.
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I programmed in those in the mid-80s so I can tell you that they are more than just concept pieces.
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So you're saying that release is less important than *starting* design? Really? Do you think that HP just magically intuited what Apple was doing, then spat out a product, without any planning or development, in order to beat something that didn't really exist yet to the punch? I'd actually be impressed if they did, but that just doesn't seem possible.
Re:!HP (Score:5, Insightful)
He is probably correct (Score:5, Interesting)
The company that started in the garage in the picture is now called Aligent. HP that is in business now was a spin off that has little to do with the company started by the founders of HP
It USED to be Agilent... (Score:5, Informative)
They just split the company yet again, and the electronics test/measurement operations (the descendant of the original HP business) got rebranded as "Keysight Technologies":
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/... [nasdaq.com]
A company called "Hewlett-Packard" still exists, but they sell printers and PCs. Nothing to do with the company that Bill and Dave started in the Palo Alto garage....
Re:It USED to be Agilent... (Score:5, Funny)
A company called "Hewlett-Packard" still exists, but they sell printers and PCs.
Don't forget ink. They make a lot of money selling ink.
Re:It USED to be Agilent... (Score:4, Informative)
Apple is currently manufacturing the new Mac Pro in the US, but it's true that they didn't do any manufacturing themselves for a number of years.
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Agilent. Aligent is something else.
IBM, Sun (as Oracle), DEC (as HP) are also around (Score:2)
and they are still making computers...
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
"IBM doesn't make PCs anymore."
They still build computers...workstations, servers, business systems...just like they did before Woz cobbled together some Fairchild opAmps around 1974. Which incidentally was a copy of a device from Popular Electronics.
Not Apple, neither (Score:2)
If you want to limit it to PCs (which the original quote did not), then you might as well rule out Apple too.
They build (or rather, subcontract offshore companies to build) phones and tablets, neither of which by any stretch could be considered general purpose computers the way PCs could, and an increasingly shrinking line of computing appliances, ditto. Of course that's pretty much true all the way back to the original Mac, except for a brief period when Jobs wasn't around.
Indeed, arguably Apple isn't a
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If you want to limit it to PCs (which the original quote did not), then you might as well rule out Apple too.
They build (or rather, subcontract offshore companies to build) phones and tablets, neither of which by any stretch could be considered general purpose computers the way PCs could, and an increasingly shrinking line of computing appliances, ditto.
They also build Macs, which
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No. The real irony here is that Apple started out as something distinct and then ultimately ended up as just another PC vendor before they started neglecting that in favor of personal electronics.
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I didn't see anything about a personal computer qualifier in the FA. Schiller said "computers".
Wrong. If you go to the ORIGINAL SOURCE [macworld.com] of the quote, a story at MacWorld, you find that Schiller is in fact talking about PCs:
"Every company that made computers when we started the Mac, they're all gone," said Philip Schiller, Appleâ(TM)s senior vice president of worldwide marketing, in an interview on Apple's Cupertino campus Thursday. "Weâ(TM)re the only one left. We're still doing it, and growing faster than the rest of the PC industry because of that willingness to reinvent ourselves over and over."
That may or may not be an accurate opinon, none the less, the subject here is PCs.
Marketing guy says something untrue? (Score:5, Insightful)
A marketing guy said something untrue? SAY IT ISN'T SO!
I'm guessing the only reason this story is here is so they can rack a couple OMG APPLE IS SO ARROGANT FUCK THEM posts from 7-digit newcomers around here.
God I miss the pre-Dice Slashdot.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
I'm guessing the only reason this story is here is so they can rack a couple OMG APPLE IS SO ARROGANT FUCK THEM posts from 7-digit newcomers around here.
They are arrogant; and indeed, fuck them.
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Aw, piss off. Those people were here before Dice, even before VA.
Hey, Johnny-come-lately... (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought the story was a reasonable one. While I do miss the pre-Dice days, the days I really miss are the pre-Y2K days. Taco commentary, movie reviews, "quickies," Hemos, Cowboy Neal poll options... I just enjoyed the by-the-seat-of-their-pants feel. And that has been gone for quite some time. Certainly before you registered. ;-)
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Slashdot hasn't been the same in a very, very long time. But I try not to judge people by their UID.
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Huh Slashdot was better back then? Really? Colour me pink! I was there in the early days and it is still pretty much the same. Albeit the best improvement that was made is the rating system.
Re:Marketing guy says something untrue? (Score:5, Funny)
Huh Slashdot was better back then? Really? Colour me pink!
Some say it was better when it waspink. With ponies.
While I agree about comments... (Score:2)
I *do* think that the content was better back then. I really felt like Rob not only had a vested interest, but really put part of himself into the site. I strongly feel that Roblimo's entrance was a direct correlation with a diminishment in fun. I can't put my finger on it, but something about the guy just rubs me the wrong way -- though if I'm honest, it probably started with the Alex Chiu story (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/01/06/01/1250257/ask-internet-icon-alex-chiu). And damn, but that was 2001.
T
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Hardly anyone gave a shit about Apple when I joined. A tribute to their recent success I guess. Now get off my lawn newbie!
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That's my recollection as well. Also, Bill Gates was the worst guy EVER. Linux kernel point releases were front page news. But at least we have idle now.
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I think there was plenty of Apple hatred back then, it's just that there were no fanboys to defend them. Everyone pretty much nodded and said "mm hmm".
Shit, I can remember hating Apple all the way back to the stupid ][ that sat in the corner of our elementary classroom and never got turned on because there weren't any teachers that wanted to bother teaching us how to use it.
Think I found the source of confusion (Score:5, Funny)
I clicked on that timeline link, using my iPad. Thing is, that page doesn't work well with touch devices. Schiller probably did the same thing I did, and naturally came to the conclusion HP's history ended in 1966.
A couple of others, one well known, one not so. (Score:5, Informative)
who's next? (Score:4, Interesting)
And Dell... (Score:2)
Granted, it had a name change, but it's been around since "Mac days."
HP and... (Score:2, Troll)
Dell (1984), IBM (1981, now owned by Lenovo), Gateway (1985, now owned by Acer), and Acer (1981).
But go on, tell us more about how you are the only ones left from that time making personal computers. And how you created the GUI. And the portable music player. And the smartphone. And the tablet computer. Oh yes, tell us more...
Cray (Score:2)
Cray is still around building computers...
http://www.cray.com/Products/P... [cray.com]
They installed their first system at Los Alamos National Laboratory in 1976
The title is wrong (Score:2, Informative)
The quote is
"Every company that made computers when we started the Mac, they're all gone, we're the only one left. We're still doing it, and growing faster than the rest of the PC industry because of that willingness to reinvent ourselves over and over." said Philip Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide marketing
As far as making personal computers before Apple and still doing it, I think it's a stretch to count HP because of a calculator, and I'm not even counting HP's attempt to get out of the PC market recently. The HP-150 that came out after they started working on the Mac... is that even in the same ballgame as the 1984 Mac, I don't think so.
Apple started on the Mac in 1980 from what I can tell.
The nitpicking is really skewing his point - HP is ALSO still around because they've had to reinvent the
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"Apple started on the Mac in 1980 from what I can tell."
Eh, the 128k came out in '84.
Some of the ideas that eventually got included might have been floating around in someone's head at Apple in 1980, but little if anything more than that.
HP isn't a computer company. (Score:3)
HP doesn't have the tradition of a "Computer Company". They make computer hardware, but that doesn't put them in the same league as Apple, IBM, Microsoft, Intel and Oracle. Same goes for Dell and Lenovo.
Full disclosure, I've purchased 2 HP laptops in the last two years, so I'm not bashing on HP. They made/make the best calculators and they used to make electronic test equipment. Those were rugged (as much as test equipment can be outside Fluke), accurate and high performance. They also used to make the best laser printers you could buy ( at a reasonable cost). Moving into the commodity PC market and selling off their test equipment branch was a huge mistake. They've had some really bad leadership over the years and they seem to keep killing their best products just at the point when it could really make a positive difference for them.
They're not a computer company, they just happen make computer hardware...this month...next month may be something else.
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They have a pretty good storage and cloud systems management software products. I think they should dump their PC division and focus on the infrastructure and services distributed cloud services will need.
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HP doesn't have the tradition of a "Computer Company".
Yeah, they've only been making computers since 1966 [wikipedia.org].
Apple has never made PCs (Score:2)
If PC means "Pocket Calculator" :)
HP is a zombie... (Score:2)
... so technically dead. From cutting edge, high quality products to scammy consumer crap in 2 decades. It was amazing to watch.
Only micros? (Score:2)
Re:still exist, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Who do you think manufactures Apple's computers, if not the likes of Foxconn and Pegatron?
Transformer, or Chinese Electronics Company? (Score:3)
Foxconn
Megatron
Alpha Trion
Pegatron
Computron
design vs assembly (Score:2)
I'm not defending outsourcing or bad labor practices, but there's a big difference between **assembly** and **design**
Parent is right to say that HP's computers are designed and assembled in China w/ a logo slapped on them. That's different than what Apple does.
As someone else pointed out below, the architecture is designed by Apple's engineers in Cuppertino. They issue *specifications* that manufacturers must meet.
Big
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And how is this relevant? BTW did you know that PC's way back in the days of Mac used standard components? It is only Mac that uses stupid custom components giving them some of the worst repair ratings in the industry.
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> True. But Apple doesn't use standard components except the HDD.
They look standard enough on a PCI bus. They just aren't arranged in a terribly standardized (or maintainable) way.
This is why Linux and Windows have no problem running on Macs.
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True. But Apple doesn't use standard components except the HDD. And even they are phased out for custom SSDs. All Macs are designed and engineered by Apple in Cupertino, incl the logic board. Quanta and Foxconn assemble them. They don't create them.
HP PCs on the other hand uses standard components like everyone else.
The only non standard part Apple use is the motherboard, everything else is pretty much standard parts, memory, HDD, CPU's, GPU's etc are all stock standard parts available in whatever flavour machine you want Apple or not.
Re: still exist, but... (Score:5, Informative)
The only non standard part Apple use is the motherboard, everything else is pretty much standard parts, memory, HDD, CPU's, GPU's etc are all stock standard parts available in whatever flavour machine you want Apple or not.
That's not true. They usually use modified versions of standard components. The current MacBook Pro has the RAM and SSD soldered onto the motherboard, and while the CPU is standard it has a custom connector and cooling system that has forced enough physical differences in the chip that it cannot be replaced. Most macs these days don't even have a GPU, they rely on intel's latest integrated ones which are finally pretty decent.
The Mac Pro is the only model Apple sells with fully standard CPU... but the GPU is non-standard, it's made by AMD but is a weird hybrid of two different GPUs that AMD sells, and Apple is the only company who can use it... one of the two GPUs in the mac pro even has a socket on it so you can plug in a bloody PCIe SSD card. On the GPU! They ran out of PCIe lanes on the processor, so the SSD has to share the lane of the second GPU which is actually a sensible choice since it's highly unlikely you will be maxing out the PCIe card (1.5GB/second) at the same time as doing serious computations on the GPU. That definitely is not a standard part.
On iOS apple builds everything themselves, they are famously known to have over 1,000 engineers working on just the CPU for the iPhone. They haven't gone that far with the mac but it's standard procedure to take components from other companies like AMD and Intel and Qualcomm but then modify to suit their own needs.
And Dell (Score:3, Informative)
Michael Dell started assembling and selling PCs from his dorm room in 1984, the same year the first Macintosh was made.
Re:And Dell (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, but he shut it down and gave the money back to the shareholders.
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Mainframes and minis apparently don't count, which makes no sense. IBM still sells plenty of computers, just not PC's. The apple spokesman's quote did not specify PC's. They said computers as a whole, so they are wrong on two counts at least.
Acre (Score:2)
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But, Apple started making PCs in 1976, 4 years before HP according to HPs own timeline referenced in the summary. IBM came out with their PC in 1981.
Other than IBM and HP, what pre-Apple computer makers are still around intact? DEC, Data General, Amdahl, Cray, Control Data, Burroughs, Sperry Univac, NCR, Honeywell, GE, RCA, etc. either don't m
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From the context it's pretty clear he meant "around and making personal computers." Which means this was a statement from marketing that is only untrue if you a) intentionally distort the context, and b) insist on rigorous definition of "personal computer" that includes things like calculators.
Be honest. When's the last time your company's marketing guy was that close to the truth.
Re:And IBM (Score:5, Insightful)
I still count IBM. I believe that quite was, "Every company that made computers when we started the Mac, they're all gone."
IBM is still around. Maybe they sold their business, but the company is still around and the business they sold to Lenovo is still going strong.
Likewise for HP, Dell, hell even Atari are still around. Sure their businesses have changed, but so did Apple's. Mac has far less mindshare than iPhone and iTunes these days.
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s/quite/quote/
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.
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Yep, Sadly the current Atari is simply Infogrames rebadged.
Infogrames bought the name, trademarks, and other IP.
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Apple didn't exist back then, it was Apple Computer. Apple Computer produced the first Mac, Apple produce the current Mac range. I forget when the rebranding occurred.
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Apple Computer was rebranded Apple in 2007. It's clearly the same company, and had nothing to do with the launch of the Mac in 1984 - it was rebranding because Apple sells tons of phones and tablets, and not just "computers". And since it's clearly the same company, changing "Apple Computer" to "Apple" doesn't affect whether their claim is correct or not.
To drill into their details:
- "When we started the Mac" was several years before the Mac shipped. Specifically, it was 1978, when the Lisa and Mac both sta
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Dell doesn't really count. They weren't around back when Apple was founded. If you're curious, Apple was founded in 1976, Dell in 1984.
The quote was "Every company that made computers when we started the Mac, they're all gone", not "Every company that made computers when we were founded, they're all gone", so it's irrelevant that Apple was founded before Dell.
Re:And IBM (Score:4)
Perhaps, but what is relevant is that Dell (November 1984) had not been founded when the Mac shipped (January 1984).
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yes and that is the same business that existed from day one just with a different owner - it did not go away.
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... HP didn't release its first PC until 1980. Apple was releasing computers years earlier. So Apple would have been correct if they said "PCs".
Actually, according to their history page, HP coined the term "Personal Computer" in 1968 for a large programmable desktop calculator (that looks like a prop from the set of Space:1999).
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It doesn't matter much what he was talking about because it was incorrect.
Re:According to the history page... (Score:5, Informative)
Sony, Toshiba, Fujitsu and Panasonic were Japanese electronics manufacturers making MSX-based personal computers in 1983 before the Mac was released and they're still manufacturing PCs today.
Re:Only Toshiba (Score:5, Informative)
Sony Viao L-series all-in-one desktops PCs.
http://www.sony.co.uk/product/... [sony.co.uk]
Fujitsu (no longer Fujitsu-Siemens) Esprimo desktop PCs.
http://www.fujitsu.com/uk/prod... [fujitsu.com]
Panasonic tablet-based PCs running Windows 8.1
http://www.panasonic.com/busin... [panasonic.com]
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Vaio's have been around for a while now. [sony.com]
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The HP 9830A [wikipedia.org] introduced in 1972 was their first programmable desktop computer [hpmuseum.org] with a full keyboard. The programmable 9100 calculator [wikipedia.org] from 1968 was technically a computer too but lacked a full alphanumeric keyboard. Thus predating the Apple I by some years.
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Oh please no, dont tell me that Packard Hell is still around.
It's been years since I saw one of them and the memories still bring on cold sweats.
Re:Look at 1995 (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'm a relative young buck when it comes to these things, but I remember my first computer (received when I was 8) was a 386 running Windows 3.1 with a 32MB HDD and IIRC 8MB of RAM...back then PC's that weren't Macs were called "IBM-compatible." Just reflecting out loud on how old I feel these days, lol.
Re:Oh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Oh (Score:5, Informative)
IBM don't make PCs any more
That's funny, because I see them selling workstations and tower servers [ibm.com]. Those are PCs.
Dell started 8 years after Apple (and after the Mac)
Dell traces its origins to 1984, when Michael Dell created PC's Limited while a student of the University of Texas at Austin. The dorm-room headquartered company sold IBM PC-compatible computers built from stock components. [wikipedia.org]
Acer started 13 years after Apple (and after the Mac)
The Micro-Professor MPF-I, introduced in 1981 by Multitech (which, in 1987, changed its name to Acer) [wikipedia.org]
NEC don't make PCs any more
Really? [nec.com]
Sony made their first PC 7 years after Apple (and after the Mac)
Really? [wikipedia.org]
Cray never made PCs
"Every company that made computers when we started the Mac, they're all gone"
Fujitsu only started making PCs 14 years after Apple (and after the Mac)
In 1954, Fujitsu manufactured Japan's first computer, the FACOM 100, and in 1961 launched the transistorized FACOM 222. [wikipedia.org]
FM-7 [wikipedia.org]
Re:Oh (Score:5, Informative)
IBM just announced Lenovo is purchasing the server business, so... that correction is false at least. The Dell one is too, since Dell started in late 1984, nearly a year after the first mac shipped.
The rest check out. The MSX is of particular note, as it's the platform (MSX2) where the Metal Gear videogame franchise started. Unfortunately, most people are more familiar with the later NES port. It was a pretty terrible port with much more primitive graphics and lots of important stuff removed, like, say, the actual metal gear the game is named after.
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Dell traces its origins to 1984, when Michael Dell created PC's Limited while a student of the University of Texas at Austin. The dorm-room headquartered company sold IBM PC-compatible computers built from stock components. [wikipedia.org]
8 years after Apple started making computers, just like the OP said.
The Micro-Professor MPF-I, introduced in 1981 by Multitech (which, in 1987, changed its name to Acer) [wikipedia.org]
5 years after Apple started making computers.
Really? [wikipedia.org]
7 years after Apple.
Cray never made PCs
In 1954, Fujitsu manufactured Japan's first computer, the FACOM 100, and in 1961 launched the transistorized FACOM 222. [wikipedia.org]
Here's a picture of your FACOM 100, c'mon, check your facts before you do the Wikipedia copy/paste. It's pretty obvious Schiller meant PCs, even the Slashdot title says "PC Maker."
http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/compu... [ipsj.or.jp]
Pretty sloppy counterargument. Your biggest problem? Apple built their first PC in 1976.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A... [wikipedia.org]
You're using the date of 1984, which is the M
Re:Oh (Score:5, Informative)
And this is why Slashdot needs a "Wrong" moderation.
a) The quote was specifically "computers", not "PC's"
b) He mentioned HP....but you conveniently ignored that one.
c) Sony made it's first computer (a PC even) in 1982 [sony.net], before the Mac
d) NEC still makes computers (servers)
e) Acer was making PC's in 1983 [wikipedia.org], before the Mac
f) Fujitsu made computers in 1954, and PC's in 1981 [wikipedia.org], before the Mac
But yeah...you were right about IBM & kinda right about Dell (though it could be argued it was just a rename of his PC's Limited...which started in 1984), so I guess 2 out of 8 is a good day for you....
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If you're going to say that it doesn't count if it wasn't IBM PC compatible, then Apple doesn't count, either. Early Macs were clearly not PC compatible - never mind that the processors and file formats are different, the disks - even if they fit in the other computer - won't be readable due to incompatible low level formatting.
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The AC I was replying to seemed to suggest that HP didn't count (barely counted), because their touch-PC wasn't "PC Compatible".
Lots of computer manufacturers' offerings from that time period weren't "PC compatible", yet they were still clearly computers.
The actual article said computers, not PC's. That's a much broader standard.
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OMG! Some VIP gave a false statement on a corporate press event. Is there a front page post on /. every time that happens?
Yes, it should be. So must we tolerate falsehoods now?
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HP purchased Compaq and this became their PC line.
Prior to that, they had their own PC line [slashdot.org].