European Carriers Complain To EU About Anti-Competitive Contracts With Apple 146
whoever57 writes "Several European phone carriers have complained to the EU about the contracts that Apple imposes on them if they want to sell the iPhone. Because the contracts stipulate a minimum purchase, and the Carrier must compensate Apple if they fail to sell through that minimum, it has the effect of forcing the carrier to promote iPhones ahead of alternative phones. The European Commission is monitoring the situation. Apple claims that its 'contracts fully comply with local laws wherever we do business, including the EU.'"
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Why, the carriers have choices, they have not been forced to carry the iPhone, they could have said NO THANKS, however they chose to sign a contract for a product they wanted to sell on their network.
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Indeed, anticompetitive should not mean "as a carrier I cannot afford to keep this contract and sell other stuff without bias". It should mean "I am actively prevented to sell alternatives". Else whatever contract between supplier and vendor is anticompetitive by creating an unjust advantage (or, technically, even disadvantage) for the products in the contract.
If you want a textbook example of anticompetitive behavior look at Secure Boot instead. Not how it's defined but how it is implemented, as in "laptop
So, you agree then. (Score:5, Insightful)
So that you are saying is that Apple should be sued by the EU? Gotcha.
I mean after all, Apple actively prevents you from installing another main OS on its iProducts, does it not? Or, are you saying that this only applies to Windows and it is OK because it is Apple?
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one clue for you: marketshare
try to figure out the rest by yourself, genius...
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indeed, buy one random laptop or smartphone, and the things between you and "doing what you want with your device" are, in this order: secure boot, android with locked bootloader and no root, iOS.
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I don't care whom EU sues. Given that EU actively prevents people with cows to sell milk ("oh you have no auth, find some phantom business whom we gave auth and resells it to you") and people with land to sell a fruit ("oh it may have grown without pesticides but it's not the CORRECT SIZE"). EU has nothing to do with free markets, I was talking about the definition of "anti-competitive". We are so deep in newspeak lately, huh?
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I live in Europe and buy vegetables from people with small lands roughly once in two weeks. Try again with different propaganda.
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Yep you can buy fruit, since the people complained about the law EU passed. But EU passed that law and it did it recently.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/world/europe/12iht-food.4.17771299.html?_r=0 [nytimes.com]
Milk quotas still stand.
http://www.reformthecap.eu/issues/policy-instruments/milk-quota [reformthecap.eu]
Was it difficult to google before accusing people of spewing propaganda, fellow EU citizen?
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So that you are saying is that Apple should be sued by the EU? Gotcha. I mean after all, Apple actively prevents you from installing another main OS on its iProducts, does it not?
I'm not sure if you are trying to be sarcastic here or if you really believe that. Apple does not prevent you from installing another OS on you iDevice any more than Google or Samsung will jovially give you technical help and throw developer time at you for free if you decide to install Ubuntu on your Galaxy S3. Even if they put clauses in their EULAs, (I could not find one in the docs that came with my iPhone) It's perfectly possible to install Android on an iPhone [gadgetsdna.com] if you are willing to put in the work.
Or, are you saying that this only applies to Windows and it is OK because it is Apple?
App
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I'm not sure if you are trying to be sarcastic here or if you really believe that. Apple does not prevent you from installing another OS on you iDevice
Apple locks down the bootloaders on their idevices in an attempt to stop you running anything other than their blessed OS. Some andriod vendors do the same but afaict most have come round and provided ways of unlocking their bootloaders.
Now in some cases* that lockdown is imperfect and people find ways to bypass it. That doesn't mean we should support vendors who lock their bootloaders down.
* You will notice if you follow the link to open iboot from your linked article that it only applies to the original i
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So that you are saying is that Apple should be sued by the EU? Gotcha.
Nice try, doublethinker. He said the exact opposite.
I mean after all, Apple actively prevents you from installing another main OS on its iProducts, does it not? Or, are you saying that this only applies to Windows and it is OK because it is Apple?
MS never got in trouble for that either. Where did you get such a ridiculous notion?
No, the fact is that you can buy any phone you want, iPhone, Android, Windows, etc. Apple doesn't force anyone to buy an iPhone, and they don't have anything monopolistic in place to abuse, the way MS has had in the past.
The only "monopoly" Apple has is over their own products, and that's not a monopoly, that's the definition of being the proprietor of a product. And that's
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And apparently Android phones make the majority of sales world wide, so Apple certainly does not have a monopoly.
The could also sell Window phones, lets face it they make them in the EU, or Blackberrys too as well as the Androids
so competition is not an issue.
I think the issue is they are complaining that someone is behaving like a carrier and treating them like how they treat their customers
which is unfair.
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I disagree. The supplier telling me how many phones I must buy is anti-competitive. "You can't have 40,000 phones, Pal. You'll take 70,000, or nothing. Take it or leave it!" That is complete and utter bullshit. And, it's ANTI-competitive.
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Now you know how your customers feel, carriers! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Congratulations! Now you know how every single one of your customers feels on a daily basis.
Being bent over and pounded is not a service my carrier provides. I just give them AU$20 a month to make calls and use data.
If being bent over a barrel isn't a lifestyle choice for you, you should change your carrier.
Re: Now you know how your customers feel, carriers (Score:1)
Here in the US we don't have a "non-barrel" option, though there is some flexibility in the "backside frequency" rate. But in our defense, our government does this to us all the time by bending over backwards to help big business do this to customers. I believe we even pay extra taxes to help buy the barrels.
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I bought used phones and now our bill is a fraction of what it was...
Is $50 better = yes. Could and should it be cheaper = yes.
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Are you serious?
We use My Simple Mobile [mysimplemobile.com]...
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Are you sure? What kind of phone and what kind of unimited data?
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you're being bent over and pounded from behind
Now you know how every single one of your customers feels on a daily basis.
And they haven't even the common decency of giving a reach around
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Re:Now you know how your customers feel, carriers! (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right... 96% share, with your closest competitor having 3% share is *really* similar to 20% share, with one competitor having 35% share.
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orly?
and regularly used it's position to lock out software it was trying to become dominant in.
- Apple abuses its position to remove competitive software from the app store
apple does none of these things and is no where near as big
- Apple was a while ago the most valued company ever. (based on stock price)
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Apple prevents non-webkit browsers accessing hardware accelaration. This slows down Firefox. Just one example.
Firefox is not on the app store.
Sorry, your example must have a basis in reality to be taken seriously.
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Apple prevents non-webkit browsers accessing hardware accelaration. This slows down Firefox. Just one example.
Firefox is not on the app store.
Sorry, your example must have a basis in reality to be taken seriously.
Wooosh.
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Apple prevents non-webkit browsers accessing hardware accelaration. This slows down Firefox. Just one example.
Firefox is not on the app store.
Sorry, your example must have a basis in reality to be taken seriously.
Wooosh.
Sorry, you can't retcon the comment as a joke by adding "whoosh" after the fact when someone points out that it's factually inaccurate.
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No, the point wasn't that well made - that's what I mean about reconning it.
There is no attempt at all made at sarcasm or satire, nor was the point made about the control of apps on the app store - if that really was the intention then it was extremely poorly made, given that the post made an assertion that was clearly false. There are plenty of other more salient points that could have been made on that front (for example, that iOS Chrome only has access to the sandboxed JS engine, while iOS Safari has acc
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We're the ones doing all the raping and pillaging, but Apple is getting all the profit from it because something known as "a product people want". We need immediate legislation so that we get to keep all the profit from the raping and the pillaging.
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Did you read the part that said EU?
We have fierce competition on the mobile market in most of EU; if you are bound by a contract it's because you are paying off your phone bought on credit, one month cancellation term is the norm else.
In fact, the competition is so fierce in Denmark now, you get unlimited voice, SMS, MMS in almost all subscriptions, only thing varying these days are the data plans.
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"In fact, the competition is so fierce in Denmark now, you get unlimited voice, SMS, MMS in almost all subscriptions, only thing varying these days are the data plans."
Ditto here in Luxembourg. For under 50€, I have unlimited voice to all carriers and landlines, unlimited SMS and MMS and data. Being a small country, for an additional 5€ a month you can also get international calls and SMS etc to the countries around us.
That's with a contract where the iPhone came with, if you buy your own phone it
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You can get out of a signed contract if that signed contract is illegal.
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So...carriers...you signed a contract. It's something you can't get out of because it's something you NEED to have to succeed. But...the prices are exorbitant, you're being bent over and pounded from behind, and you feel you have no recourse, no matter how much you bitch and whine? Congratulations! Now you know how every single one of your customers feels on a daily basis. You're not going to get one iota of sympathy from me.
===
But if you want their service, you will have to pay for the Apple portion as well as what you think they are doing to their customers
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I think Apple is being the innovative one here, innovatively anticompetitive ... and I agree with Apple, they are abiding by the letter of the law.
The question is do we want all major manufacturers with some decent pull (ie. Samsung) to start doing this as well ... I think we don't, allowing market incumbents to throw up extra barriers of entry through contracts only benefits the market incumbents. So lets update the laws to make what Apple is doing illegal going forward.
the irony... (Score:2)
...of cellular carriers, the most despised, bullying, and customer-hating organisations - monopolies, often - on the face of the earth, are crying because someone bigger than them is calling the shots for a change. the shock alone must be causing them to palpitate. even better - its because of *unfair and one-sided contract terms*! I laughed so hard I swear my spleen burst.
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...of cellular carriers, the most despised, bullying, and customer-hating organisations - monopolies, often - on the face of the earth, are crying because someone bigger than them is calling the shots for a change. the shock alone must be causing them to palpitate. even better - its because of *unfair and one-sided contract terms*! I laughed so hard I swear my spleen burst.
Actually here in Europe the carriers have something you in the US seem to lack. We call it competition. Personally I am very happy with my carrier. No monthly fee for the basic subscription and a decently priced data plan. The Apple contracts are in sharp contrast with the rest...one of many reasons why I would never contemplate buying an iPhone.
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Also one of the most heavily regulated to enforce competition, especially in the EU.
They know anticompetitive behaviour when they see it.
Easy way to fix this problem (Score:5, Insightful)
You know what the easiest way is to solve this problem? Completely separate the business of providing cell/wireless service from the business of providing the actual phones. If you want an iPhone, you buy it from Apple at whatever they are actually charging (none of this "subsidized" multi-year contract BS). Then you buy a service package for whatever carrier you want. Either month-to-month or long-term.
Bundling the phone and service together has been horrible for consumers (we get locked-down devices loaded with crapware and stuck with terrible contracts) and now even the carriers don't like it? Enough.
Belgium does that (Score:1)
All phones are unlocked, and you can switch providers and keep the number. You can get subsidized phones, but then again you can just buy a phone from anyone on credit anyway and buy a service from any of the telcos.
But really who needs Apple? There just isn't a killer app for iPhone now that isn't available on Android, and usually better on Android.
So why not just skip the iPhones altogether at this point, if a user wants it, they can buy it unlocked mail order from one of the countries that sells them unl
Re:Belgium does that (Score:5, Insightful)
But really who needs Apple? There just isn't a killer app for iPhone now that isn't available on Android, and usually better on Android.
People want the brand. It's like those Beats headphones: crazy expensive, subpar sound, "all my friends have those so I gotta have 'em too".
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http://www.businessinsider.com/htc-just-sold-back-half-of-its-holdings-in-beats-electronics-2012-7 [businessinsider.com]
Re:Belgium does that (Score:5, Interesting)
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Ironically (Score:2, Insightful)
my iPhone has been things only a nerd or geek would want to do
Its kind of sad your trying to troll Android vs Apple based on subjective comments [and personal attacks]...you hit all the check boxes, but you ignore the fact that this article is about Carriers standing up to Apple, something they are doing 6 years after launch because, well their dependence on Apple is not once it once was, simply because other companies are providing smartphones that outsell Apples several times, because customers are choosing them over Apple.
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what phone model outsells the iPhone? I don't think the galaxy s3 does. It's the best single selling cell Phone I think, though not the biggest company or biggest operating system in europe.
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Wrong. Recent numbers put Samsung quite far ahead of Apple globally. Please do your research.
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Sure if you include the $4 to manufacture "smartphones" they sell in the third world. :)
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really? which model by samsung outsells the iPhone? here is a hint:
teh iPhone 4s, an old model, outsold the galaxy s3 in 2012 4Q, when teh 4s had a much more powerful update available and the s3 was the top in class for samsung. In fact, thanks for your snide, completely incorrect reply, it definitely made me go look up how dominant apple still is in the markets it has released phones
Re: Belgium does that (Score:3)
I don't know. I can see plenty of non-nerds wanting to able to add extra storage without having to buy a new device, have the ability to block unwanted calls, mark texts from certain numbers as spam or use Swype to name but 4.
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You live in Bizzarro world. There are actually no apps that are "better" on Android. It is a technical impossibility.
Re:Easy way to fix this problem (Score:5, Informative)
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It's an option everywhere, even here in the states. But people balk at a $400 price tag, even though you'll save twice that much over the course of a contract if you actually do the math. I did when I bought my Galaxy Nexus, and plan to buy unlocked phones from here on out.
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I call bullshit.
What carrier are you using in the United States that actually charges less if you don't subsidize the phone with them?
No one in the US buys phones outright because doing so is fucking retarded. The monthly fee remains the same regardless of if you buy it at full price or with a contract. Even if you buy it with a contract and cancel the contract before you even walk out of the store it IS STILL CHEAPER THAN PAYING FULL PRICE, at least on $400 and above phones.
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Exactly. Cell service prices in the US are expensive, but that is mitigated by the fact that you can get the handset for quite a good price by paying monthly fees.
And $400 is low price for the latest high-end models, HTC One, iPhone 5 and Galaxy S4 are all at ~700€ mark in Europe unlocked depending on the tax rate where you buy them. For reasons that are quite sensible, people tend to opt to cut that into 24 separate payments, and cell phone companies love that. The problem is the additional cost of ma
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Apple sells unlocked phones..
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Here in Finland it is illegal to tie the service and the phone together, that is unless you buy subsidized. And most people know what a horrible deal subsidized phones are, so few people buy them. In fact, subsidized phones only started appearing here around the time of the iPhone launch, not before (Apple, go figure).
Numbers must be portable also. And I can take my phone and pop in any SIM I want to and it will work just fine. Hell, my last phone (Lumia 820) I bought from a friend in Germany who was on T-M
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For me it's not really about killer features, it's about app support (and OS updates to some degree). I'm still very happy with my iPhone 4 (bought in 2010 when it was released), however, I have noticed that newer apps don't feel as snappy as they used to, due to being optimized to run on newer models. It's not quite bad enough to warrant a new phone yet, but it might get there, especially when OS update support is dropped at some point in the future (Thankfully the resell value of iPhones is pretty great).
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I never owned an iPhone, but don't iphones register an itunes account with apple? By keeping a database on IMEI numbers of the devices that are sold over a carrier, i would think it to be quite easy to keep track of that?
Or just stop buying them (Score:2, Interesting)
Because if carriers stopped buying and selling apple products they would eventually fix their contract problem. Sign a contract with other carriers stating that for a year there would be no selling of i-products. Simple as that.
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IANAL, but wouldn't that be illegal in EU?
In some ways, yes. (Score:4, Interesting)
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It could still fall under the cartel or similar laws. Recently in Finland there was a case where dairy producer (Valio) had originally cut their milk price to drive another company out (Arla). The Finnish Competition and Consumer Authority was not happy when they found out and more or less forced Valio to up their prices. Valio publicly announced they were going to increase their wholesale prices by 30%. FCCA was angry again, claiming that kind of announcement could be considered to be price signaling and i
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I think the person you're replying to is taking the "it isn't illegal if you don't get caught" attitude ;)
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The European telecom market is much too fragmented to be called a single market, it's merely an assembly of national markets. Conditions in one national market have very little to do with those in other markets as the actors are generally very different from country to country.
Now as for your contention that all that needs to happen is for one important actor in one country to renounce their contract with Apple & for the rest of the operators to domino after, it's bull. Here in France, Freemobile.fr ent
Apple is not a monopoly (Score:2, Redundant)
Carriers aren't forced to offer Apple. In fact, in Europe you aren't really obliged to do anything about Apple - you can succeed (as mobile provider) other ways. Of course, it is much harded than hoping all kool-aid drinking Apple fanboi masses come to you and you only (if serously, Apple is playing with fire here - my pick huge number of their sales in Europe comes from carriers, because no hipster or "cool kid" can afford retail price of Apple).
So, unless Apple has near 90% monopoly in smartphone market (
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OEMs weren't forced to offer Microsoft. In fact, in US you weren't really obliged to do anything about Microsoft - you could succeed (as OEM) other ways. Of course, it is much harder than hoping all MS using enterprise masses come to you and you only etc. etc. etc.
You don't need to be a monopoly to engage in anti-competetive practices. With 40-50% of mobile market, Apple certainly has enough mass to swing around, and what they're doing here is not much different from what MS did.
Hint: it's not about "hoping
Cry baby EU telcos (Score:2)
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unless the contract stipulates you can't sell other manufacturer's phones.
Isn't that the essence of the very problem here? If Apple's contract state you must sell X amount of Apple phones, then isn't that an implicite stipulation that you can not sell phones from other manufacturers unless you can meet X?
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Isn't that the essence of the very problem here? If Apple's contract state you must sell X amount of Apple phones, then isn't that an implicite stipulation that you can not sell phones from other manufacturers unless you can meet X?
And if the other manufacturer offers spiffs to your store employees for selling their phone, doesn't that mean they cannot sell iPhones if they want their cash from Samsung?
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Two wrongs make a right?
Compensation (Score:2)
The "compensate Apple" referred to in the summary appears to simply be that they need to pay for the devices they ordered even if they can't re-sell them to consumers. I know that the EU has strong protections for cons
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If I understand the article correctly, the problem isn't that Apple has an overall minimum - it's that Apple is setting a minimum per carrier and using that to force market share, somewhat similar to the per-CPU licensing that Microsoft did in the 90s.
Assuming I understand the implications of the article correctly (and it doesn't spell this out), the Apple trick works somewhat like this:
Carrier X has 100,000 customers, 10,000 of which are super-Apple-fanboys as customers. If they don't get their iPhone, th
Just Like... (Score:2)
Your American :) (Score:5, Informative)
Its always a little embarrassing to show how little are know about other parts of the world...here is a wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union [wikipedia.org] from the article "The economy of the European Union generates a GDP of over €12.894 trillion (US$16.566 trillion in 2012)[1] according to Eurostat, making it the largest economy in the world."...just in case you missed it "*LARGEST* economy in the world."
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It's fun how people selectively believe the EU is a country when it suits them, and a loose collation of countries when it doesn't.
Even if you do pretend the EU is a country, the GDP is impressive, but the GDP per capita is not.
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I would counter this by saying the EU population does not rate GDP per capita as important as the US does.
Here in the EU, we like to have a life too, not everything is work, work, work and then you die. By the way, how many vacation days and paid-time-off holidays do you get each year?
(44 days/year here in Finland, including vacation and PTO)
Re:Your American :) (Score:4, Interesting)
It's funny how when it serves EU pride, like "We have the largest economy in the world", Europeans sum up the GDP, yet when it doesn't, like total amount of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere, that never happens...
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[citation needed]
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[learn to use your brain]
I've heard & read the comment "USA biggest polluter on the planet" countless times in the French press (though it has calmed down slightly now that china has bypassed the USA & due to Europe's economic crises pushing the environment almost off the table). Learn a language other than English & start reading the press.
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Bwhahahahhah.
What a moron.
I am fascinated about how people concerned with others not using their brains seem to jump the shark the most.
I am Italian, I speak Swedish, Greek, Spanish, German and English (sometimes).
Your clever assumption is spot on, man! =D
Not that your over generalization didn't give you away.
(No, I don't live in EU any more because the economy went down the drain.)
I believe you refer to the "US bigger polluter *PRO-CAPITA*".
It is still compatible with the statement that "EU, as a whole, is
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What no Swahili? No Xosa? No high Elfish or other claims like Tagolog or Kingon? Come on, you cannot seriously claim to have knowledge of even the languages you claim yet be ignorant of how common it is for people in the eu to lump the eu together when it serves us & then split it into individual states when it doesn't.
Tu montres encore ton ignorance quand tu crois pouvoir me faire des lessons sur quoi que ce soit. Mon signature date des années quatre vingts quand l' Europe laissait Milosevic massa
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Hint: "ignorance" and "not understanding phayes' ideas" are two different things.
Also, why are you writing at all in a language I understand little of?
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Go suck an egg, junior (or is that cultural reference too obscure for you). Ignorance is easily curable through education. Willful stupidity like needing a cite for what is an extremely common occurrence or insulting the president of a country that I do not live in (as can be quickly determined by referring to my /. profile) is harder.
Call me unsurprised to discover that your claimed multi-lingual status & thus comprehension of the french press is not as comprehensive as claimed. Unable to use Google tr
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So you insult me for not knowing any language, mock me for knowing too many languages, brag about being able to write in French, and then insult me because I don't know French.
Mmmh...
Extremely vague generalizations about 500 million people, backed only by your own subjective judgement.
Saying I don't use my brain because I ask to support of the generalization above.
Extremely poor assumptions on my linguistic capabilities.
Calling me ignorant because I don't get a poor metaphor of yours.
Speaking in a language
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The US has more members though doesn't it?
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No, it doesn't. The country/state relationship in America is in no way similar to the country/member relationship in the EU. Considering the GDP of the EU is less than a trillion higher and the population is nearly 200 million people greater than the US (approx. 60% greater), I'm not sure the original poster's point is braggable in any case.
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Agreed.
If I own a telco, and I have - say 100,000 customers, and I'm sure that I can sell 50,000 phones within a twelve month period - then I should decide how many of them I want. I want 20,000 Apple devices, and I want 20,000 Android devices, and I want a few hundreds of each of several other brands.
For Apple or Android, or anyone else to tell me that I MUST purchase X amount over what I have decided is WRONG!!!
Screw Apple and their minimum purchase. I just won't sell any. I'm going to push Android, an
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You have absolutely no experience what so ever in the retail world do you?
This is pretty much standard business practice for high profile retail targets, Apple didn't invent the practice they just joined in. Just because you're unaware of the fact that everyone does it, doesn't make it new. The cute part is that you think Samsung doesn't do the same with their Android phones.
Congratulations, you're a tool of propaganda rather than a human capable of thinking for themselves.
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Are you arguing that "This is business as usual." or are you arguing that "This is the RIGHT WAY to do business."??
I'm saying it's wrong, and I'm not going to play the game. In fact, the telcos seem to be doing something about it. They are talking to the EU, informing the regulators that Apple is trying to bend them over a barrel, and isn't even using any vaseline. I'm all for the telcos, in this case.
THERE IS NO REASON FOR THEM TO ACCEPT THE CONDITIONS THAT APPLE WANTS TO IMPOSE.
Maybe it's "legal" in th
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I'm saying it's wrong, and I'm not going to play the game.
That's your choice but unusually given modern business practices I actually don't see a lot wrong with this one. Apple are selling a popular phone and frankly the reason it is popular has more to do with fashion than functionality. So to keep it popular it needs to be in adverts for the carriers which have it. Assuming the minimum numbers are not punitive all this contract does is ensure that a carrier is making a major commitment to sell the phone. They don't want iPhones sitting on some carrier's shelf a
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WTF Are you talking. Apple says if you want to sell our phone, you need to sell this many. If you can't sell this many, we will stick to other carriers. How is that "rape", how is it even wrong?
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Then you should not sign the contract with Apple. Period. The end. No one forces carriers to sell the iPhone.
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I thought that I already said that. I'm not signing a contract that basically makes me a junior partner in an advertising and sales scheme. I'm willing to sell 20,000 of their phones, because I think I can do it. I'm not willing to sign a contract that makes me liable if I fail to sell 50,000.
It's Apple's loss, of a sale of 20,000 phones.
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what are you talking about? In Europe Apple has about 20% of the market, usually less except around a release of a new iPhone. It's nowhere near 50%.