Chinese Government Suspected of Unleashing Astroturfers Against Apple 194
An anonymous reader writes "A piece attacking Apple's treatment of Chinese consumers that aired on official government TV last week was followed by a wave of anti-Apple posts on Weibo (China's equivalent of Twitter) by Chinese celebrities. On the China-watching site Tea Leaf Nation, Liz Carter reports that sharp-eyed Weibo users noticed something funny about one such post from an actor and singer named Peter Ho: 'Cannot believe Apple is playing so many dirty tricks in customer service. As an Apple fan, I feel hurt...Need to post around 8:20 pm.' What was this 'need to post at 8:20 pm' business? After Weibo lit up with sarcastic tags such as #PostAround820, Ho claimed (rather unconvincingly) that someone must have hacked his account and posted the anti-Apple 'Weibo'. Mike Elgan at CultOfMac notes a parallel with the Chinese government's rough handling of Google in 2009, which led to Google's closing of its mainland operations. Google claimed that government commissioned hackers had apparently stolen search engine source code, Gmail messages and other user data. An earlier article by Elgan on Datamation notes the uneasy business relationship between Apple and China."
Why government? (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of Chinese companies are real s**ts, and a lot of Chinese companies make their own Android handsets.
IMHO, follow the money. It will be paid for troll turf from one of the China handset makers.
Also why do you think the Chinese government is some sort of magic all seeing, all acting entity? Realistically they want to project that image, but part of the reason China is such a wild west is because the Chinese government is so corrupt and no-seeing.
That's why companies like this don't fear smear tactics. Because they can always pay a bribe and walk away.
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Interesting)
Also why do you think the Chinese government is some sort of magic all seeing, all acting entity?
There is a perception that the Chinese government is a monolithic entity, with unity of purpose. This is not at all the case. Because the communist party has a monopoly on political power, everyone with ambition has to be in it. So the CCP includes people of every ideological hue, from hardcore Marxists to free market libertarians. These people often work in the same departments. Many Chinese government agencies are run by committee, rather than having a single person in charge, which results in muddled policies as factions maneuver to obstruct each other.
I spent several years working in Shanghai, and found that the same is true in most Chinese businesses. The amount of office politics, infighting and backstabbing is probably an order of magnitude worse than anything I have experienced in the US.
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Re:Why government? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, you don't normally see that kind of overt racism unless you are at war. My girlfriend happens to be Chinese (doesn't speak English, lives in Japan) and neither she nor any of her friends I have met/spoken to online are like that.
I thought we were long past Ming the Merciless style stereotypes and bigotry, but I guess not.
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Informative)
What, you think their Western counterparts are better?
Reality is, these Chinese companies are learning FROM Western companies. And they're just starting, I'm fully expecting them to go full Bhopal on us eventually.
And you know what? For what we did to them for last couple of centuries, it would hard as hell to argue that they're somehow worse then us and not appear both stupid and hypocritical at the same time.
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Insightful)
What we did to them? While I fully believe the US is culpable for the woes of many places in the world I think the greatest enemy of the Chinese is the Chinese. The US didn't support Mao and the US was not complicit in the building of a police state in China.
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wasn't talking about US. It's quite interesting that you inferred that particular country from the thread talking about companies.
Western companies have long since evolved to be "multinational" to avoid being too vulnerable to influence of any single country.
Re:Why government? (Score:4, Funny)
Western companies have long since evolved to be "multinational" to expand their markets.
FTFY.
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On the other hand, the real motive to go multinational is being able to evade taxes, use cheaper labor, and evade inconvenient laws.
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Nonsense. Corporations that are not multinational will have a very difficult time competing against locals outside their base markets.
Without the actual presence in a market you cannot really grasp what products will be attractive.
It is EXACTLY this reason that US companies failed for so long getting accepted in Japan.
The idea that it has anything to do with taxes or legal issues is not at all true except perhaps in the financial industry.
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Despite of anything your ignorance may tell you, the main reason to be multinational is to avoid restrictive laws, especially labor laws, and to evade taxes. Everything else are just excuses.
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1. You're buying corporate bullshit as the real thing. That makes you the very definition of "stupid".
2. Vast majority of companies that manage to agree on significant tax breaks, legislation and so on in their home country do not go multinational. Even if they have to sell on a lot of markets. Good example of this is Nokia which sold pretty much world wide very successfully except for US/Canada/Japan, while never going multinational.
Multinationals usually need to dodge relevant legislation or other rules.
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I disagree with your assertion that the Chinese are simply parroting what they learned from the West. I'm Asian, and the widespread Confucian ideals mean that it's very common for Asians to prioritize the group (be it family, company, or country) over the individual. What you see going on in Chinese companies is what happens when you take the Western concept of capitalism, and remove the West's strong sense of protecting individual liberties. Heck, the Chinese government's entire premise driving their rapid industrialization in the last 20 years is that by sacrificing protections for individual laborers, they can keep wages and costs artificially low, which will attract more foreign business and investments, thus allowing the country to modernize more quickly. That is, the needs of the country in the future mean the needs of the individuals today can be overlooked.
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Psychopaths generally 1% of the population (generally 15% of the prison population globally), now that's whole of them of varying intellects and capabilities and their ain't no country in the world that escapes their predations. No need to point at one countries people being worse or better than another countries people, more realistically just look at how solidly the psychopaths at the top have locked in their power and control and how great the resistance to their activity is in the rest of the populatio
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The US didn't support Mao and the US was not complicit in the building of a police state in China.
What about:
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China is a hell of a lot less scary today than the USSR was.
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Nobody disputes that. And so it is justified? Just like we used to befriend Saddam Hussein for the same reason? We're not on moral high ground and our public and media wouldn't criticize their own country's actions much since it is unpatriotic and thus unwelcome. It is all rooted in selfishness and double standards.
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My post wasn't meant to justify anything - I'm simply saying that the US will not befriend NK to undermine China, because China is not that scary. China of 2003 is not analogous to USSR of 1970.
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Not at all. It goes back to the Tuesday before Mao being in power.
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The US was not a part of the UK during any part of the 19th century, though the Brits did manage to burn DC two decades prior to the first Opium War.
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China has more reason to bear a grudge against European countries, who were there raping China long before the US (regrettably) joined in. The US at the very least used part of its Boxer Rebellion indemnity to establish Tsinghua University, and later aided the country against Japanese expansion through lend lease and volunteer fighters, and yet again after the Sino-Soviet split, oh and once more with Most Favored Trading Nation.
What has Europe done to pay for its transgressions against China?
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Insightful)
> What has Europe done to pay for its transgressions against China?
The generations that transgressed died off. The current generation has done nothing to them and should not be held to blame for the actions of old dead people to whom they happen to be related.
I know it's a cultural thing in some places to hold generations-long grudges against people for the "sins of their fathers". But I've never understood it. And I'll never accept it. And if that's one area where I'm just culturally-insensitive, that's one insensitivity I can live with.
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We all look the same to you. Got it.
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If you further back in history, we all came from monkeys. So really, what's the difference?
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Grudges can be held for a couple of hundred years - see the hundred year war (which did not last for a hundred years, I know, I know).
But once it gets past a couple of hundred thousand years, those eventually go away.
Hope that helps. But feel free to come back in 200,000 years and tell me I'm wrong...
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Speaking as a US citizen, you are of course alluding to the American blood spilled in china during WW2 helping to fight the japanese invaders?
Besides, little things like representative democracy matter in the long run. China is a dictatorship and their history is no excuse for totalitarianism or aggressive behavior above and beyond normal competitiveness in the world of business. Illegal activity in western nations generally gets exposed by the press and corrected.
In China it's state sanctioned.
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Not entirely sure how they have been "abusing" those who colonialized them. Unless you believe that if anyone did anything bad to someone else, anyone else is fully within their rights to have revenge.
In which case, I'm pretty damn afraid of being a white male. Because there must be half a world of people wanting to take revenge on me.
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO, follow the money.
I'd say it's even simpler than that. A classic method of deflecting criticism is to set up an external boogeyman. People are starting to demand employment rights from the government. The government could change, or they could set up some big, bad, foreign companies to take the rap.
The only surprise is that they didn't choose a Japanese corporation. Oh, wait, they did... [nytimes.com]
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of Chinese companies are real s**ts, and a lot of Chinese companies make their own Android handsets.
IMHO, follow the money. It will be paid for troll turf from one of the China handset makers.
Also why do you think the Chinese government is some sort of magic all seeing, all acting entity? Realistically they want to project that image, but part of the reason China is such a wild west is because the Chinese government is so corrupt and no-seeing.
That's why companies like this don't fear smear tactics. Because they can always pay a bribe and walk away.
If you ask me its it's no different than the fawning western press suddenly showing up with Apple articles when any other phone manufacturers release new phones. With nothing new on the table or in the product pipeline, you can count on at least a half dozen stories showing up in newspapers, websites, and blogs when ever Apple feels a little bit left out or needs some good news to counter some new product push from some random Android manufacturer.
Convince me these don't start with a phonecall from apple headquarters, or an email marked confidential, listing story "ideas" and a "must be published by" date.
If anything this is probably the Chinese government or some manufacturer taking a card out of Apple's playbook and doing it poorly.
What goes around, comes around.
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There's one important difference though: western media participates in these games because it makes them money, gets them contracts, etc. These Chinese celebrities are more likely to be strong-armed into cooperating than rewarded with a handsome sum of money.
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Re:Why government? (Score:4, Insightful)
There is no limit to the paranoia of Fandroids.
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Seriously. "Fawning media over Apple?" I must live in an alternate US.
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No one is immune.
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Uh, if you follow the money, Peter Ho is a paid spokesperson for Samsung...
Re:Why government? (Score:5, Interesting)
Uh, if you follow the money, Peter Ho is a paid spokesperson for Samsung...
I'm amazed that this very important fact hasn't been mentioned or discussed at all in the comments except by the parent post. Follow the money trail? It probably ends at Samsung, a company that spends more on marketing and advertising than Apple by around a factor of 10.
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True, but a big part is companies like Apple making it unprofitable to manufacture in China anymore with their "supplier codes of conduct" and such.
One thing I've learned about Chinese companies is they're extremely capitalistic - screwing people over is just par for the course (if they were smarter, they won't l
Transnationals do the same thing (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yep. Sony has been doing it forever, and Microsoft seems to have become a big fan of it lately as well. FaceBook was actually caught doing it against Google.
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Wait a minute... Is China the most epic troll Country in the world?
China should love Apple! (Score:1, Insightful)
China and Apple have the same mentality:
We know what is best for you, and we will not give you any choice about that.
They're cut from the same mold.
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China and Apple have the same mentality:
We know what is best for you, and we will not give you any choice about that.
There can only be one!
Re:China should love Apple! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Calm down dude. He was just pointing out the similar philosophy, nothing more.
Fanboys over reacting is the primary reason why we can't have a good debate about this stuff.
Re:China should love Apple! (Score:4, Insightful)
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Also just an AC. There is a reason the C stands for "coward." They can't bear to put their trolling next to their name. The AC tag has outlasted its usefulness on /.
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The OP and the moderators are astroturfing. They are, at best, anti-fanboys who can't think critically.
I can buy any product I want. There are Apple products I don't want so I don't buy them. There are others I have purchased. Apple can have whatever attitude they want to have. If I don't like something they offer as a result of that attitude, I can walk away at any time.
People who live in China don't have a choice, period. And the consequences of not going along can be dire.
To say that Apple and China are
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This seems like an important case of an AC calling an AC an AC. We need to study this further. We should also investigate what a sock puppet is in the context of a series of anonymous posts.
Foxconn (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple production facilities are in China already, aren't they? Foxconn if I am not mistaken? If Chinese GOVERNMENT wanted to hurt Apple, they'd start there.
This is not government by itself, this is some competitor using his ties to the government channels maybe?
Re:Foxconn (Score:4, Insightful)
If the government went after the Apple-Foxconn relationship, it would be obvious that they want to hurt Apple, which would draw condemnation. They don't want that; they want a groundswell of "the little people" patriotically choosing to boycott Apple in order to hurt Apple. This is the entire purpose of Astroturfing -- altering public perception WITHOUT being obvious.
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There's government and then there's government. The same thing happens in the US and elsewhere.
It's very possible that lower level government officials are pulling this off. Whether that's for their own misguided ideas or as a favor to a business friend doesn't really matter.
Don't forget the CCP has over 80 million members. That's a lot of people pulling strings and effecting actions that aren't necessarily following guidelines of whatever you would see as the central government.
Re:Foxconn (Score:4, Interesting)
"If Chinese GOVERNMENT wanted to hurt Apple, they'd start there."
It's government all right. And no, they most definitely would NOT start there.
The Chinese government is a crowd of sneaky back-stabbers. They want our business, but they also want to steal all our secrets. So they leave the businesses (mainly) alone, at least to our faces. Then they hack and grab when they think we aren't looking.
It's far past time we dropped China as a Most Favored Nation trading partner, and brought our manufacturing back home.
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Given a bit more time, machines will make China's population irrelevant to producing widgets. When that happens, it will be cheaper for U.S. manufacturers to produce in the U.S. It won't necessarily increase employment by a big whack in the U.S., but it will make securing designs and company secrets easier and also make manufacturing more flexible.
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Plenty of cheap labour outside of Asia.
If on-shoring isn't feasible, perhaps US companies could look to their own region. e.g. stimulating a tech sector in central america.
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Most Favored Nation status has not existed for about 15 years. The status is now called Normal Trade Relations, and there are only two countries (Cuba and North Korea) which do not have it.
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"Most Favored Nation status has not existed for about 15 years."
Well, I have read it in the news a lot more recently than 15 years ago, so maybe the news sources were behind the times.
But regardless of labels, we have done China many economic favors (in terms of outsourcing, even if you ignore anything else), and in turn they have done pretty much as I stated: stabbed us in the back.
As far as I am concerned, these days, any corporation offshoring their manufacturing just to save a buck is declaring themselves an enemy of the American economy, and therefore America
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"So unless you are talking about nationalization of successful international businesses, then your comment has no meaning."
As far as I know, the U.S. government is the only entity that has declared "most favored trading partner", so of course I was referring to the U.S.
"The only way it would make sense is if you suggested that US government should turn around and actually provide a business friendly environment inside the country"
I disagree. Many companies are (with or without the U.S. government) ceasing their offshore outsourcing of manufacturing. It isn't as economical as it once appeared to be. And (although I doubt this is their primary motivation) offshoring has also been shown to be damaging to our economy.
No, of course I wasn't suggesting "nationalizing" any businesses.
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If you want to say U.S. consumers in general have been part of the problem, I agree. But you should be careful about making claims about people you don't know.
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No offense but I rather fuck you.
You can't go and claim to be holier than thou and not provide proof.
List your hardware otherwise lying hypocrite like yourself is the problem.
Bullshit. Somebody (you?) made an accusation based on zero evidence. It is up to the person making the accusation to prove their accusations. I have no obligation to prove a damn thing, and I don't owe that person anything at all. Not even this reply.
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I can prove it. There are no smart-phones made in the United States. There are no personal computers where all of the components are made in the United States (A few are assembled here, but that is a game, all the real manufacturing is in Asia).
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"I can prove it. There are no smart-phones made in the United States. There are no personal computers where all of the components are made in the United States (A few are assembled here, but that is a game, all the real manufacturing is in Asia)."
No, you can't. Because your "proof" is based on several invalid assumptions.
First, who said I use a "smartphone"? I certainly did not state that anywhere on Slashdot. So do I, or don't I? You can guess all you like, but you have no "proof" either way. Or even evidence.
Second, when was the computer manufactured, and WHERE did the parts come from? You don't know. The fact is that I used to be a computer technician (I am still A+ certified) and I have usually built my computers myself from parts I hand-
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"It doesn't matter what anyone has accused you of doing. It is YOU who made the claim that you are NOT using Chinese gear."
Wrong.
If you are going to participate in a debate, maybe you should go find a book on the rules of debate and look it the fuck up.
"The accusation is merely speculative, you are the one who is defending with a supposed FACT (which you HAVE NOT backed up)."
Wrong again. This was the accusation:
"No offense but you're part of the problem...posting from your Chinese made computer, and talking on your Chinese made smartphone."
It was a statement purporting to be fact ("You are..."). There was not the slightest thing "speculative" about it. So let's see something concrete to back it up. Otherwise this exchange is over.
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"No, you are the one making an extaordinary claim. The burden of proof is on you."
Bullshit. The claim is only "extraordinary" if you have made certain assumptions (which in fact you have). I am not responsible for your assumptions.
---
"I am not retained by the police to supply their deficiencies." -- Sherlock Holmes
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Post with an account and maybe someone would care. Grow some balls.
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Perhaps it is retribution for the previously announced Apple intent to 'in-shore' some manufacturing (on top of the already cited government industry competitor ties).
Not necessarily astroturfing (Score:4, Interesting)
I've studied Chinese history extensively (even have my Bachelor's in it). While I would not put it past the Chinese government to do this, at the same time it's a complete and total fallacy to assume that a totalitarian government akin to the Chinese one can stay in power without the strong support of a sizable minority and the tacit support or disinterest of the majority of people. Generally my experience with the Chinese shows that there are 1-3 out of every ten that support the government's actions, which is typically enough to keep them in power as long as the remaining 7 are apathetic.
Also, the Government is facing an existential crisis. They've built their legitimacy to rule on the idea that they could keep growing and prosper, and it worked as they built an export economy built on cheap labor. Now with the global economic downturn they've been unable to maintain the steady job growth, while at the same time many Chinese are prospering and looking for more than just a low paying factory job. They're trying to build a consumer economy but that shift takes time, so they've turned to nationalism instead to redirect any dissension in the populace outwards instead of inwards; see the whole Senkaku island spat between China and Japan. This is another example of it; they're turning their people ever so slightly against America to help unify them.
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1-3? Living in China for 7+ years now I can tell you that probably more than 90% of them support the government. Sure they'll bitch and moan about their leades, but if you ask them which system they would prefer (China, US or something European) they're sticking to the Chinese system.
IMHO, this is no different from most western countries. We complain about our governments but very few of us would opt for the system of another country, even if that system is fairly similar to ours.
Well of course... (Score:3)
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"This is another example of it; they're turning their people ever so slightly against America to help unify them." While that is true, I doubt it will be as effective as it has been in the past. My sense is that the internet causes tripwires for manipulation, people don't like being manipulated and when there are other sources of information that what is spewed from government, government spew tends to look dumb. The Chinese people, if what I read currently is correct, are already establishing a sort of und
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Fraternal discussions - nobody got hurt
Friendly discussions - we're still at the talking phase
Frank and friendly discussions - we told you to stop doing that, now stop doing it.
Frank discussions - the tanks are rolling.
Nothing to look at here (Score:2, Funny)
Let's move along. Post around 11:20 am.
Reminds me of a story (Score:5, Funny)
Back before e-mail, someone wrote a letter to the offices of some company, complaining about their product or service. A few days later, he received a nicely worded apologetic letter. Attached to the letter was the post-it note, written by the recipient in the company which read, "Send this son-of-a-bitch our standard apology form letter."
I suspect everything and anyone of all things. (Score:1)
Sick of this 'got hacked' nonsense. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems 'my account got hacked' is quickly becoming the 21st century 'my dog ate my homework' bullshit excuse. Let's just be sure not to forget the 'bullshit' part of that.
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account owners shrug it off as their account being hacked, as if it's something so common it happens to all of us weekly
From what I've read, in China it may well happen to people weekly. Talk about a festering hellhole of information insecurity... between the government hacking corps, the theft and physical bugging of laptops, the Great Firewall of China, and the industrial espionage and corruption, I'm surprised any computing gets done there at all. :^P
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Except that accounts DO get hacked on a massive scale and passwords are stolen by the millions.
Read the news.
What possible reason is there for stealing twitter accounts or Facebook accounts other than for mischief?
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But breaking in, and stealing several hundred thousand account credentials counts as hacking by just about anyone's definition.
Or don't you read the press?
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You break in, steal half a million account credentials, and turn around and sell the list on the Internet to as many people as you can as quickly as you can.
You don't want to put any more traffic on the site yourself once you score the account logins. Its easy to search for these lists for sale if you know where.
Probably cheaper (Score:2)
Why bother hiring expensive celebrity astroturfers when your hacker sweatshop can get the same result for 1/20th the cost?
You get the occasional 'Need to post this by 8:20' slips, but hey, you get what you pay for.
50 Cent Brigade (Score:2, Interesting)
The Chinese Communist Party has a group of people (mostly off-duty journalists, students, and such) called the 50 Cent Brigade. They pay them the equivalent of 50 cents every time they post a comment online to sway public opinion in the direction of the Party. This group probably isn't involved with the celebrities posting stuff on Twtitter, but the intention would be the same. Keep in mind that "Perception Management" is a big thing for the Chinese Communist Party--it's why they keep the entire country's m
Another Astroturfer: (Score:3)
It's obvious you're just a shill for the the American running dog government posting on behalf of their lackey, Apple. [need to post at 1:45 pm]
Im confused (Score:2)
Biting the hand that feeds them (Score:2)
beginners (Score:2)
So, the Chinese government is new to this. Companies and governments in the West are much better at recruiting each other and the people to do their propagandistic bidding for them.
Overdue for tariff (Score:2)
Re:Astroturfers against Apple? (Score:5, Funny)
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That's way better than mine.
My MacBook drowns elderly ladies and beats up kittens. Probably because it's "Pro".
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Dang, I need a RAMmer upgrade.
Re:Astroturfers against Apple? (Score:5, Funny)
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At least it's better than a Ballmer squirt.
Re:Astroturfers against Apple? (Score:4, Informative)
It's humor, son. It doesn't rise to the standard of "pathetic."
Well, unless you miss the point...
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I'm enjoying the pro-China astroturfing that is going on below. /. would get of the AC option. It's only used by trolls now, not its original purpose of protected people from releasing important information (a la WikiLeaks). Then again, /. is now just a place to argue about global warming, judicial cases, and OS wars.
I really wish
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The cold war began in 1949 when China went communist, despite receiving help from the USA during World War 2.
They even sent Chinese to help the North Vietnamese kill Americans in Vietnam during the Vietnam war.
Even so the USA reached
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I don't think it's fair to characterize direct US support of China during WWII as anything but pretty minimal and rather late.
The US didn't enter the war until after Pearl Harbor, and supply routes were were pretty much controlled by Japan at that point. The only way materials could be gotten in was airlift over the 'hump' aka the Himalayas.
Of course the USN working its way across the Pacific was a help in that it relieved pressure on China. But it was somewhat indirect.
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That's because it was a volunteer force, and to me that makes it even more significant.
No one forced these Americans to fight for the Chinese. Yet they did it anyway.
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You must think schools in the USA work the same way they do in your homeland, comrade. There's plenty of anti-Americanism in education and many professional educators feel the same way you do about the USA and Vietnam. I heard plenty anti-Am
Re:Blah (Score:5, Insightful)
Slashdot is, and has always been, a US site.
You can't "demonize" a demon. China is still a corrupt communist dictatorship.
They tried isolationism for a few centuries and it didn't work: the West surpassed them technologically and economically and then kicked their butts. The Chinese leadership is corrupt and totalitarian, but it isn't stupid. They keep Western companies in China to steal their technology, and the West plays along because we get cheap consumer goods. It's probably a reasonable deal, since technology is as short lived as a Chinese-made Barbie doll.