Steve Jobs Movie Clip Historically Inaccurate, Says Woz 330
Yesterday saw the release of a clip from the upcoming movie jOBS, a biopic about the life of Apple co-founder Steve Jobs. The clip shows Jobs, played by Ashton Kutcher, having a conversation with Steve Wozniak, played by Josh Gad, about how influential an operating system for a personal computer would be. The real Steve Wozniak commented on the clip, saying the situation it portrayed was "totally wrong." He said, "Personalities and where the ideas of computers affecting society did not come from Jobs. They inspired me and were widely spoken at the Homebrew Computer Club. Steve came back from Oregon and came to a club meeting and didn't start talking about this great social impact. His idea was to make a $20 PC board and sell it for $40 to help people at the club build the computer I'd given away. Steve came from selling surplus parts at HalTed he always saw a way to make a quick buck off my designs (this was the 5th time). The lofty talk came much further down the line." Wozniak was quick to add that he isn't making any judgment on the quality of the movie based on a single, 1-minute clip, and that the rest of the movie may or may not be more accurate. He also says he hopes it's entertaining.
More context provided in the extended clip. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:More context provided in the extended clip. (Score:5, Funny)
It was also before he invaded poland.
Re:More context provided in the extended clip. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: your signature. Is that a joke or did that line actually come from an old Star Trek episode?
As Benjamin Franklin once said, "yes, that was an actual line from an old Star Trek episode".
Re:More context provided in the extended clip. (Score:5, Funny)
I think we can agree that the founding fathers, Jefferson most of all, preferred Star Trek at the time. You'll notice that live long and prosper appears in the Declaration. What's true is that Lincoln, arguably a less cerebral man, was a drooling Lucas fanboi. This explains the lines regarding his use of the force in a time of rebellion in the Emancipation Proclamation.
Re:More context provided in the extended clip. (Score:5, Funny)
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I was probably about 7 years old when I found that book on my parent's bookshelf. I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I read it and there were no klingons or spaceships or even mind-melds.
Re:More context provided in the extended clip. (Score:5, Funny)
I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but I'm pretty sure this is grounds for Slashdot account deletion.
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No, it's the wise words of Yoda [youtube.com] in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.
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Ahh, you're right, the clip is actually from The Empire Strikes Back.
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Re: your signature. Is that a joke or did that line actually come from an old Star Trek episode?
Damn it Jim, he's a scientist, not a doctor!
Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:5, Informative)
Ok, the Apple Mod Army will be here any minute now. Grab your ankles.
Aggrandizement of Jobs was probably the only option open to the screenwriters.
If the movie were written to show the real Jobs, they would have been sued into oblivion.
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:5, Insightful)
I have mod points right now, I'm an across-the-board Apple user, and I think this movie is very likely no more than sycophantic shite for pinheads.
Everything the Mac is, came from Apple engineers. Not Jobs. Everything I like about Macs (which is almost everything), and everything I hate (like the stupid, stupid one-menu-to-serve-them-all, the inability to send keystrokes to anything but the frontmost app, the immense memory leaks in Safari, the limited control of the audio system, the broken color pipeline, the constant stream of deprecated APIs, the crackpot leakage of IOS concepts into OSX, the lack of a mid-tower... I could go on but I'll spare you.) Likewise, everything the iPad/Phone/Pod ecosystem is, came from Apple engineers. Not Jobs.
Jobs took these things and marketed them. He cherrypicked them, too. Whoopie. This is only notable in a culture that is in love with illusion -- television, etc.
Jobs is gone. Apple isn't. Apple still puts out great products. And bugs and irritations. And tries to be our "mommy." It's like anything good, really... issues remain. So the best users keep poking at them, hopefully they will do better as a result.
Anyway, none of my mod points, at least, will be used to step on those irritated with the Apple PR machine, which, IMHO, is the only place you will ever run into Jobs. Or his shade.
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:5, Informative)
Everything the Mac is, came from Apple engineers. Not Jobs.
At least one mac engineer has a strongly different view [inventor-labs.com] than you.
I dislike the guy as much as anyone -- I believe that he is directly responsible for apple becoming exactly what their 1984 Mac commercial parodied and I think he was a giant prick for abandoning his daughter for the first two years of her life, making her mother live on welfare while apple was booming -- but I believe it is entirely possible for a person to have more than one side to their personality.
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:5, Interesting)
You mean the part where he stole all of his ideas from existing works by some of the first "open source" people before there was even an "open source" or the part where he parked in handicap spots for most of his life using his money to keep his Mercedes unregistered, just so he could... because simply getting his own parking slot wouldn't show the world just how big his dick really was?
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:5, Funny)
They made a real Jobs movie. It was called American Psycho..
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The Raspberry Pi is a non-profit organization. When a charity feeds the poor with at-cost-produce, you don't see a lot of people complaining they're undercutting the competition...
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not but the two are hardly the same.
Steve's idea was to sell something for $40 that the customer could build themselves for $20, a 100% markup. The idea the folks behind Raspberry Pi have is to order parts in a quantity of scale that allows them to build and sell you something you could not hope to put together yourself for that price.
That is not the same thing at all.
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Irrelevant. They might be making a profit, but it's still cheaper than you could make it yourself due to the economies of scale.
Also, I dislike Apple for many reasons, but putting a markup on a product and selling it isn't one of them.
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:4, Funny)
"...and were sourcing their components in the same place as the other electronics hobbiests."
Sneaking them out the back door at HP?
Re:Apple summed up in one breath! (Score:4, Insightful)
NEXT was about bankrupt when Jobs convinced Apple to buy it.
And he profited from that deal quite nicely. I'd argue he was a lousy manager, but a very good businessman.
Oops (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oops (Score:5, Insightful)
One wonders why they didn't bother asking Woz for information about what happened.
Because they are more interested in making the movie entertaining than historically accurate. Woz is quibbling over details. Most movies about things that really happened have huge deviations from accuracy. For example, the movie about Facebook [wikipedia.org] had a completely made-up girlfriend as a significant character.
Re:Oops (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the truth doesn't sell well. Blind idol worship over a dead guy is much sexier.
Re:Oops (Score:5, Insightful)
Woz is quibbling over details.
I dunno. Woz is actually quite nice. If somebody made a movie with me in it in which I wear a suit and tie even though I never do that in real life, I'd be pretty pissed.
Re:Oops (Score:5, Insightful)
If they were accurate, then they would be documentaries. ;)
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Its not quibbling, its "totally wrong".
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This is more than just details. It's actually presenting Steve Jobs as a different person than he was. A hero figure instead of a businessman.
Though it depends on how realistic they make it. "Pirates of Silicon Valley" had a whole lot of inaccuracies in it, but on the surface it didn't appear to be a documentary. If this new movie is similar and appears to be just a generic movie with lots of hand waving then it won't be a big deal either. But it if is presented in a way that makes it appear to be fact
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You think all the scenes in Lincoln really happened? Or The Iron Lady? Or Moneyball? Or the Social Network? Or 127 hours?
It's a movie. It's entertainment. Just because it's a biopic, doesn't mean it's a literal reporting of history as it happened. If they made them like that, they'd bomb at the box office for being 4 hours of tedium.
Re:Oops (Score:5, Funny)
You think all the scenes in Lincoln really happened?
He didn't kill vampires?
Re:Oops (Score:5, Funny)
He said all the scenes. Of course that part is accurate.
Re:Oops (Score:4, Insightful)
The problems with these movies is seemingly 90% of the public believes every detail about them as long as they don't contain vampires or other supernatural forces. We'll be hearing all sorts of moments in this movie pushed on others as if it's fact, and it's damn frustrating when you're trying to have a conversation with someone who can't see passed the fantasy of these stories because it's "based on a true story".
Re:Oops (Score:5, Funny)
I think the quote shows exactly why they didn't bother asking Woz for information about what happened.
It's hard to create a hagiography when the saint's family is around to tell everybody that he pissed in the bathtub.
Re:Oops (Score:5, Funny)
Bit of a bitch for the script writer when someone who was actually there at the time who was 50% of the partnership is still alive and can call bullshit. One wonders why they didn't bother asking Woz for information about what happened.
Because they want to spend $20M on the movie and sell it for $40M.
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Two movies are being made about Jobs.
One is written by Aaron Sorkin.
One is staring Ashton Kutcher.
I'll let you guess to which one Woz is probably offering consulting comments.
Historicaly accurate (Score:5, Insightful)
Does anyone want to see something historically accurate? Do you really want to see Jobs portrayed accurately?
It will never happen because the hero worship that is going to sell this movie would die if people knew the real Steve Jobs. You know the guy that stole other peoples ideas, actively suppressed worker wages, humiliated employees and random people he met, screwed over Steve Jobs, refused his own daughter for years, tore apart people's life work, disrespected other companies intellectual property and then started World War P.
You could fill this thread with war stories from the people that Steve Jobs burned. That's now what's going to sell this movie at this time, give it a few years and someone might be willing to do so, but until the idol worship tempers down it simply wont sell.
Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:5, Interesting)
Jobs is the new Edison. They were both self-loving monsters who stole and borrowed, then claimed credit.
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Good comparison, makes me wonder if history will come through or not. Tesla eventually started to get his due in society but it took decades and many school children are still taught to treat Edison as a hero.
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Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:4, Interesting)
True enough on what you have said. The sad thing is Edison /was/ a genius and did invent quite a few things on his own. He didn't need to steal ideas from other people like he did in order to be one of the greatest inventors in history.
Unfortunately he was an incredible asshole and went ahead and stole other peoples ideas anyways. I have heard it said that Edison was histories first great patent troll, and I think you could make a fair argument for that.
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Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:5, Interesting)
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One of the big differences that breaks down your equivalence theory is that Edison really did invent some things, just not everything he claimed. Jobs, not so much. He was pretty much entirely a braggart/thief.
Also, Edison was a notorious eccentric slob. Jobs, you get the feeling he always wore a fresh black turtleneck each day.
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He didn't need to steal ideas from other people like he did in order to be one of the greatest inventors in history.
He didn't need to, but that was no barrier for him. See, e.g. the regenerative receiver.
Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:4, Informative)
Ideas are a dime a dozen. 4000 prototypes (Score:3)
Edison designed and hand built about a THOUSAND different lightbulb designs that didn't work before finding one that did work well. That effort made changed the world. Lots of people had ideas, Edison had determination and worked like crazy to turn an idea into an immensely useful product.
Similarly Jobs. I'll never buy
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Edison was a nut about direct current and wanted to find a way to transmit it over long distances. He never did. Tesla discovered how to make alternating current, which could be sent over long distances. Edison never forgave him for it.
Yeah, some of Tesla's inventions were 'tin-foil hat' quality, but those were mostly in his later years, and only because his notebooks were lost so his experiments aren't repeatable. If nobody tells you to put an emulsion of silver nitr
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Did you mean many decades TOO late ??
Also, don't minimize the amount of hero worship that Tesla is now receiving. Not all of it is warranted.
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Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:5, Informative)
My understanding is that Pirates of the Silicon Valley is fairly accurate. Does not paint Jobs in the best light.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/
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Interesting, I will have to check this out.
Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:5, Informative)
Well, sorta...
It is still a movie and it dramatizes a lot of very simple Gates' and Jobs' actions. If you want a real history, I suggest going with documentary Triumph of the Nerds [wikipedia.org]
Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:5, Informative)
It's better, but it completely omits the major role that Commodore played at the time [amazon.com]. To my knowledge, Commodore has never had any significant mention in any documentary or movie.
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if people knew the real Steve Jobs. You know the guy that stole other peoples ideas, actively suppressed worker wages, humiliated employees and random people he met, screwed over Steve Jobs,
Wait, he screwed over himself?
You mean screwed over Steve Wozniak I presume.
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In the great word of Homer Simpson.
D'oh!
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It will never happen because the hero worship that is going to sell this movie would die if people knew the real Steve Jobs. You know the guy that stole other peoples ideas, actively suppressed worker wages, humiliated employees and random people he met, screwed over Steve Jobs, refused his own daughter for years, tore apart people's life work, disrespected other companies intellectual property and then started World War P.
At least Jobs didn't discriminate in the screwing over.
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Fair point, he was equal opportunity, he screwed over everybody.
Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:4, Insightful)
As early as 1980, when Apple had it's IPO, Job's had created 300 millionaires, 40 of which were employees.
Woz himself is worth 100s millions of dollars, thanks to Steve Jobs taking an interest in his hobby projects. Without SJ, Woz would undoubtably have been an obscure engineer. He's certainly done nothing impressive without SJ.
Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:4, Informative)
Aren't you being backwards? It was Woz who created the hardware without which Jobs would not have amounted to much more then another salesman and the reason that you're unaware of Wozniak's impressive work at Apple is that Jobs did his best to kill it.
Killing superior hardware to stroke an ego is not a good trait.
Re:Historicaly accurate (Score:5, Insightful)
After Jobs was booted from Apple, he built two companies, without involvement from Woz.
One merged into Apple. One merged into Disney. The transactions were in the order of billions of dollars, and arguably revitalized the two companies, and helped them keep their positions as the leaders of their respective industries.
Call it salesmanship if you insist -- it was *very* fine salesmanship. Could Jobs have done it without Woz? Yes, he actually did it twice. You don't have to like him personally to recognize that.
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Actually Woz did put those chips together in ways that were innovative. He came up with a way to produce colour with less chips then anyone else which was a major selling point of the Apple II, put the chips together in a way that was less expensive then what others were doing and came up with an innovative, affordable way to add a disk drive to the computer.
I can still hear the echos of Jobs, "Users don't need colour, users don't need expandability" which of course were the selling points of the Apple II.
No I and others want to see ... (Score:2)
made up bullshit in a biography. I love to watch shows on Hitlers double life of killing Jews in his day to day in front of the public job while saving them after work hours.
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So you probably enjoyed "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" then.
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It shouldn't sell, period. Jobs did nothing that deserves a book or movie. Only the Apple fanatics think he walks on water.
If he walked on water, you would complain that he can't swim.
They turned Woz into a loser (Score:4, Insightful)
What a shit piece of film-making. Woz was the real hero behind Apple.
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Halted was the focus for starting Apple?! (Score:5, Interesting)
Hello,
The company Woz mentioned, Halted Specialties Company [halted.com], is still around. Great source of electronics surplus and I have any fond memories of visits there over the past decades and wandering around their dusty shelves. I had no idea they were so instrumental in the founding of Apple Computer.
Regards
Aryeh Goretsky
Halted isn't HalTed (Score:3, Interesting)
The original place was sold many, many years ago. The original location on Fair Oaks is under condos now.
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The original place was sold many, many years ago. The original location on Fair Oaks is under condos now.
No, that was HalTek, a competitor of HalTed. HalTed is still there. They have a faded copy of a receipt from Steve Jobs, buying a used 'scope, on their bulletin board.
The sad fact of life is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
... that 50 years from now the media will have deified Jobs and next generations will believe he was a much much larger than life superhero who bootstrapped the entire computer industry and singlehandedly created new innovative products and touched so many people on a deep and personal level through his enduring work. And the real heros, Woz and the hundreds of Apple engineers and designers, will remain a footnote in some obscure appendix in a seldom read computer book, if that.
Makes me sick, this cult of the Jobs personality and posthumous canonization of a glorified $20-profit salesman.
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I stand my my theory [slashdot.org]. Steve Jobs is looking more and more evil.
Re:The sad fact of life is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The sad fact of life is that 50 years from now the media will have deified Jobs and next generations will believe he was a much much larger than life superhero who bootstrapped the entire computer industry and singlehandedly created new innovative products and touched so many people on a deep and personal level through his enduring work. And the real heros, Woz...
It's quote amusing to see all these people criticising the deifying of Jobs, which isn't actually happening, whilst at the same time they are deifying Woz.
Re:The sad fact of life is ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The sad fact of life is ... (Score:5, Interesting)
... that 50 years from now the media will have deified Jobs and next generations will believe he was a much much larger than life superhero who bootstrapped the entire computer industry and singlehandedly created new innovative products and touched so many people on a deep and personal level through his enduring work. And the real heros, Woz and the hundreds of Apple engineers and designers, will remain a footnote in some obscure appendix in a seldom read computer book, if that.
Makes me sick, this cult of the Jobs personality and posthumous canonization of a glorified $20-profit salesman.
The only people complaining of any fame are fans of Woz. Follow Wozniak's track record once the Macintosh [which he had nothing to do with] arrived. He completed a double B.S., got married, and did nothing but small, mindless little startups while getting paid today $120k a year [honorarily by Apple] for simply being alive. The real talent at Apple are the guys who Steve cultivated and who demanded he create NeXT when the board ousted him. I worked around them at NeXT. They dwarf Wozniak in knowledge, skills and capabilities to create great products. That same zeal was brought back to Apple. Wozniak had decades to extend his respect technologically by actually pioneering research in design of CPUs, GPUs, etc. He doesn't know it. He never did. Technology blew past Steve Wozniak and he decided to play Steve Jobs as a CEO and failed miserably every single time. The guy holds 4 patents in his entire engineering career, while being given Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory of resources to create. He isn't that genius. He's a celebrity who will always be the fat kid who Steve Jobs pulled out of his shell [Wozniak is quite clear on this point] and made him wealthy.
Josh Gad may have not been the best choice. (Score:3)
Re: Halted (Score:3)
The comment about Halted needs a little context. Halted (still in business) is an Electronics part store in the Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale off of Central Expressway & Lawerence for those who care..) I is the place you go when you need the odd-ball capacitor or resistor for your electronics project. Lots of good quality junk there.
The jobs prayer (Score:4, Funny)
da man
Two quick book recommendations (Score:5, Informative)
Somebody gave me Steven Levy's Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution as a teen (thankfully missing the minefield of shitty books with the term "hacker" in their title) and it was amazing. Early days computer hobbyists, Paul Allen and Bill Gates writing BASIC for the Altair on a timeshare and dealing with the hobbyists who wanted to copy it instead of buy it, Ken and Roberta Williams and Sierra On-Line, and so much more.
Also loved the more recent Commodore: A Company on the Edge by Brian Bagnall. Just captivates the imagination to read about people hand-drawing their CPUs. There's an enthusiasm in the early computer industry that seems to have dampened over the years, as startups and corporations begin with the money in mind rather than the starry-eyed idealism and hobbyist tendencies that powered the first personal computer businesses.
Neither of these feature Ashton Kutcher, however, or even Steve Jobs to any great extent. But if your passion for computers is in their function rather than their form I highly recommend the above books.
Re:Two quick book recommendations (Score:4, Informative)
Atari: Business is Fun is another worthy read. Well researched and thorough.
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Quite funny considering how much of that first MS BASIC comes from printouts of another version of BASIC that Gates took from a University.
Shot in RD; Reality Distortion. (Score:2)
It's a movie about Steve Jobs; the only way for it to be honest is if it's filled with rewritten history and selectively ommitted truths and just blatent lies.
Also, unless Apple sues the producers of this movie, it's not very realistic.
So what we all knew, then? (Score:2)
Steve Jobs was a bad apple.
It would be much better (Score:5, Funny)
If Charlie Sheen had been cast as Jobs.
If he think's that's inaccurate.... (Score:3)
... just wait until the climactic finale, when MegaJobs burns down Cupertino with his laserbeam eyes.
If you want the real story... (Score:3, Informative)
...read Andy Hertzfeld's site http://www.folklore.org/ [folklore.org] which contains stories from the people who actually designed and built the Mac. Some of these stories went into the book "Revolution in the Valley" which you can still buy on Amazon.
Lessons from the Republic, Volume XI, Chapter 4 (Score:3)
And in an effort to prevent others from finding their own way to the top, from time to time the various organs of the Republic would engage in a disinformation campaign. Histories of successful people were reportedly distorted and 'enhanced,' to make their later success easier to understand, while at the same time ensuring that their efforts could not be easily duplicated by simply copying their behaviors & actions. It was trivial to enact: those who had achieved great wealth often enjoyed the ego-feeding exercise of believing that they were predestined to achieve it, that they were special; rather than the reality that at that age, they had run calculation after calculation, and were never sure of their own success.
The effects were plain to see -> a heavily romanced view of reality often lead to others internalizing the various actions of the characters seen on screen and in books; watchers would come away, thinking that if they were simply passionate enough about their chosen road to riches, then they could achieve all things; the prerequisites for achieving this success were sadly glossed over, and almost totally unreplicable. Just as 'Stand and Deliver' gave way to an entire generation of teachers who believed that they could change things by just caring a little more / fighting the system on behalf of their students, the point of these works was to activate the emotional centers of the brain, while deactivating the logical centers. Thus you ended up with what is essentially a headless army -> people willing to do something, but with no idea how to actually achieve it; they bought the kit for an airplane, which they believe will give them wondrous weekend holidays in Canada, but lack the instructions and know how to put it together.
It would be three centuries before anyone realized how damaging these efforts were, and an additional 150 years before they would be disbanded.
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Re:Steve Wozniak is a loser. (Score:5, Interesting)
He also hold the record for Tetris on a Gameboy. When Nintendo Power magazine stopped accepting his high scores (he'd confirm by mailing in Polaroids of the screen), he started submitting his name spelled backwards.
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Revisionary perhaps, not visionary. He was a succesful and ruthless business man, not a genius.
Without Jobs, Woz would have made a good computer that would have sold a lot less, if at all.
Without Woz, Jobs would have sold radio's or cars or some crap, and he would have been succesfull at it, but probably not computers.
Re:Steve Wozniak is a loser. (Score:4, Insightful)
Without Woz, Jobs would have been that annoying fuck trying to sell you a cellphone at Radio Shack when you went in looking for a 10k resistor.
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Since when is Hollywood historically accurate? They added explosions in a Robin Hood movie and a hot air ballon in a movie about the three musketeers.
Yeah, Abraham Lincoln was a vampire hunter [imdb.com]?!? I had no idea until I drank the Kool-Aid that is Hollywood's historical accuracy.
Re:Oh Hollywood! Thou art a heartless bitch (Score:4, Interesting)
Hollywood inaccurate...... film at 11.
Wait, what?
But seriously, when did anyone expect historical accuracy from Hollywood. Another example that outraged many Brits [wikipedia.org]
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Well thank god they don't. The Social Network was bad enough already. Consider how boring it would have been if it'd been accurate. Endless meetings, often involving lawyers. Yawn.
Type casting (Score:3)
Woz is sure being very diplomatic ... (Score:4, Insightful)
He also says he hopes it's entertaining.
I think I am not the only one, especially those of us who knew Steve Jobs, who will say this ... It'll be a very sad day if the movie that supposed to tell the story of Mr. Steve Jobs becomes a movie that is "entertaining".
Steve Jobs is never an "entertaining" kind of guy. In fact, Mr. Jobs can be the worst kind of SOB when he was in his mood.
I hope the movie producer can get more information from people who knew Steve Jobs and make a movie that is not just entertaining but instead, also give proper justice to Mr. Steve Jobs, the man.