Shake-up at Apple: Forstall Out; iOS Executive Fired For Maps Debacle? 487
New submitter noh8rz10 writes "Apple's Scott Forstall, who grew iOS from its inception, is departing the company. Rumors say it's because of the Maps debacle, and problems with Siri as well. Jony Ive is taking a larger human interface role, which means he may kill the skeuomorphic interfaces he hates. John Browett, head of retail, is out as well; he never won the trust of the community. What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?"
Clang Clang (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So you want something like METRO instead?
I am in favor of things looking pretty and familiar. It doesn't make sense to have an awesome GPU which runs an OS where you have only 8 colors to choose from and no different than Windows 3.0 on an EGA card. This is the 21st century.
The problem is the anti skeupmorphic folks have terrible outdated looks and some of the functionality is missing that people are used to for the last 20 years.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Clang Clang (Score:5, Insightful)
So you'd rather have the OS chew up cycles than let the apps have them?
You have any idea how fast a modern computer is? An icore7 has 70,000 mips (millions of instructions per second!) For a comparison the 1984 Mac had 3 mips. Your computer you are reading this on is 20,000 faster than the first successful graphical computer.
Now lets talk about the GPU. I do not have hardcore numbers like I did with the CPU but 10 to 100s of billions of pixels rendering a second has been the norm for years and this is true even for a crappy intel integrated graphics.
In 1990 yes, your argument made sense as 8 colors could substancely lower the cost and increase the performance of your system. Today 32-bit graphics use 16.7 million graphics per pixel! This is regular standard Windows 7 colors as designers on workstations use up to 48-bit.
So I want my AERO, compiz, and pretty eye candy since I have this awesome supercomputer and it is asthetically pleasing much the same way of having nice interior does not signficiantly slow down the performance of your car due to the extra 7 pounds it adds. I love text that flows smoothly on my Android phone and hate how browsers are choppy on a full powered desktop unless I go in and tweak the 3d settings and smooth scrool. Though, Firefox and IE 10 are getting better.
I like the current system because it is what I am used too as well and see no need to replace it. Only difference is I use Google to search for things instead of using a gui, but that is it.
Re:Clang Clang (Score:5, Insightful)
That's great, but we're talking about mobile. Performance and battery life are inversely correlated. The more powerful GPU you need, the more memory you need, the less time your battery lasts. You might not care when you're using a supercomputer that's plugged into the mains, but it has a big, direct effect on how people use mobile devices.
Re:Clang Clang (Score:5, Insightful)
Never under estimate the value of eye candy.
Skeuomorphic is not eye-candy, it's an obsolete approach that was never pretty to start with. Not sure if the colored squares in Metro or the 2-color palette in Office 2013 and VS 2012 are the answer but at least it does not look like korean cars fake wood panels.
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Re:Clang Clang (Score:5, Interesting)
Even as a proponent of clean minimalist design, I actually started to come around to the skeumorphic concepts in iOS. It does give it some charisma compared to Android and Metro UI.
Some things were absolutely horrible & offensive, like Game Center, but other things are subtly brilliant, like the coherent jewel themes on the icons and buttons.
I look forward to the next chapter from Apple. I hope they don't lose the goofy charm that iOS has.
jony!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully, we'll get better UI designs
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
it's called android
Lmao. If I wanted a UI that changes every revision, I'd go with windows.
Ten years too late (Score:5, Interesting)
Forestall does pretty good work, but he's always been too proud to listen when someone else has a better idea. He shouldn't be working on products that are used by hundreds of millions of people all around the world.
The thought of him working directly under Tim Cook, who doesn't know much about product design, has always made me uncomfortable.
Hooray for Ive, he's possibly the best engineer I have ever heard of, except for maybe Wozniak. This is a good day for Apple.
Re:Ten years too late (Score:5, Funny)
This reads like a Stalinist missive regarding the liquidation of some member of the Politburo.
Huge missed opportunity. (Score:5, Insightful)
[Google] Sounds good. We'll give you maps with turn-by-turn navigation.
Re:Huge missed opportunity. (Score:5, Funny)
[Apple] Oh, and we trust you'll shut down that silly little Android thing you've been doing.
Re:Huge missed opportunity. (Score:4, Insightful)
[Apple] Oh, and we trust you'll shut down that silly little Android thing you've been doing.
[Google] Sure no problem, just sign here to buy your ads from Google from now until eternity.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Tim Cook's leadership ... (Score:5, Insightful)
What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?
He is going to lead and hold people accountable?
Re:Tim Cook's leadership ... (Score:4, Interesting)
What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?
He is going to lead and hold people accountable?
Err, are you suggesting that Tim Cook was not involved in Apple's recent string of blunders? Perhaps that he didn't know what was going on? Or that he did, but did not understand the consequences? Good luck with that.
Re:Tim Cook's leadership ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably that he's not the right person to be in charge (sorry, Tim).
Ive is an industrial designer (make it pretty).
Forestall is a software engineer (make it work).
Cook is an industrial engineer (make it cost less).
Steve was able to balance the trade-offs in these interests because he was the 800 pound gorilla. He also had Avi (technological visionary) and Bertrand (better software engineer than Forestall (again, sorry Scott; he was much better at managing simultaneous projects with radically different requirements)) to rely upon before that.
Tim is very good at optimizing supply chain, because it's instinctual for him: control access to supplies of at least 6 key components of products to prevent copycats and third-shifting by the Chinese factories; hold a knife to the throat of key suppliers like Sharp for displays to control costs; etc.
The latest iPhone display is a bean-counter decision, not a Steve decision; changing the aspect ratio relative to all previous iPhone models because "that's what there was a lot of in the warehouse" when Apple still has a knife to Sharp's throat was a horrible mistake. Unless it wasn't a mistake, in which case I have to say "good job monetizing the App Store by requiring application rebuys": still a bean counter decision, and not a Steve one.
Personally, I fault Steve himself for never working to develop a protege within Apple, which is how the COO got turned into the CEO by default and power vacuum.
Some people have pointed to Apple's 20% increase in year-over-year profits as portending the future value of the company; however, I would have to say the rapid decline from 20% year-over-year innovation is probably a better indicator.
I have to say, I actually did expect a faster decline due to recognition of new_product = previous_product++ by the larger world, but that much money can't just evaporate overnight, and neither do good employees, despite who is at the helm (with the exception of the large option/RSU cliff timed exodus following the "Steve is stepping down" announcement).
Re:Tim Cook's leadership ... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, he's going to purge the previous leadership and replace them with his friends and/or lackeys.
If that was the case, he would have canned Ive, and wouldn't have bothered convincing Mansfield to come back when he wanted to retire this summer. And Federighi, who was promoted to SVP by Cook this summer is an insider who worked at Jobs's NeXT.
No, Forstall was canned because he didn't get along with the rest of the executives, pushed for over the top skeuomorphism that everyone else in the company and even the rabid fanboys hate, and fucked up the maps thing. He was holding the company back.
Re:Tim Cook's leadership ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Forstall was canned because he didn't get along with the rest of the executives, pushed for over the top skeuomorphism that everyone else in the company and even the rabid fanboys hate, and fucked up the maps thing. He was holding the company back.
Interesting. Especially the "holding the company back" thing.
Recently, I've been catching the Samsung ads while watching football. "The Next Big Thing is Already Here" is really starting to work it's way into my head. The ads outside the Apple Store are priceless--especially the "We'll get that next year, right?" It seems that Samsung has been working on useful things while Apple has been thrashing about trying to decide what shade of leather looks best in the Calendar app and whether bookshelves in iBooks should be Maple or Oak.
So Apple is looking less-and-less like the technology leader and more like the follower. I hear more and more people saying, "Well, I'd get Android but I have all these iOS apps that I'd have to buy again." These were the same excuses that Windows users used to have. "Yeah, it sucks, but I have too much of an investment to walk away from it now."
Re:Tim Cook's leadership ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, the way the OS X Address Book attempts to resemble
a paper address book. This is pointless and stupid and the only
people it could possibly appeal to are idiots who probably don't
use a computer for anything more than surfing the web anyway.
This is the kind of crap that insults me when I see it on a computer I
paid a lot of money to buy.
If Ive gets rid of this crap, he will have my everlasting appreciation.
Also, and MUCH more important : Apple MUST quit trying to blend the
interface used by OS X with the interface used by iOS. The result of
such attempts at blending is stuff that is annoying and awful to use and
it is an insult to a user who has a modicum of intelligence. QUIT THIS
SHIT, Tim Cook, or your legacy will be that of the guy who fucked up
a good thing, and that is not a legacy anyone with honor wants.
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I, for one, think that ios and mac integration is useful-- when I want a portable device, I use my ipad. When I want to use my large screens and keyboard, I use my imac and it's helpful if I can share data (especially safari tabs) through iCloud.
Skeuomorphism, though, is silly.
Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (Score:5, Funny)
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If Ive gets rid of this crap, he will have my everlasting appreciation.
Also, and MUCH more important : Apple MUST quit trying to blend the interface used by OS X with the interface used by IOS.
Why?
This is what Apple wants, to blur the lines between OSX and IOS so that they can get rid of OSX on most, if not all devices. They're just using the "boiling the frog" method to avoid users from jumping out of the pot.
Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (Score:5, Funny)
True. Compared to Microsoft's method of putting the frog straight in the microwave and hitting "Start".
Or the Open Source way: look around, see that everybody is cooking frogs, and choosing instead to do a from-the-ground-up no-cooking-required reimplementation of a toad. Then trying to convince the rest of the world their choice is better because it's not only bigger and capable of jumping further than a frog, but can also kill small mammals and survive in your chlorinated swimming pool...
It Says ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Jony Ive should be in charge of everything there. (Score:5, Interesting)
He's the one who designed all their successful products, after all.
Re:Jony Ive should be in charge of everything ther (Score:4, Informative)
If I were Ive I wouldn't budge from my position. He's basically in the heart of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, with any toy, process, tool, material, and workforce he needs to get something done, and essentially no responsibility for some of the more tedious parts of running the business. And now he's got the software side of things, so hopefully we see the end of some of the more...creative...apps and back to something that's more functional.
well that explains a lot (Score:5, Insightful)
After reading that, I realized that this was indeed true and in fact there has been an alternate philosphy besides the skeuomorphic design which is the "war on color" in some aspects of OS X (e.g., the flat gray scroll bars, the gray linen background for the virtual desktop manager, even the world map for changing the time zone). So, now I'm wondering if the skeuomorphic faction led by Forstall has lost the debate, was Ive and the other minimalist design people behind the "war on color" and if that's true, is that what we'll see in future versions of the OS with Ive leading the interface design? I'm not sure how I feel about that, I really don't like using an OS that is drab and boring, it's depressing (I actually liked Aqua for the most part, which was also Forstall's invention I guess). Either way, it's good to know that Apple isn't afraid of rocking the boat still. That skeuomorphic crap might have been good for increasing everyone's vocabulary with regards to interface design, but it was annoying as hell to use.
Now, if only Apple would admit they screwed up the document versioning system beyond repair and give us a proper "Save As..." since the dawn of the computer (or thereabouts) I would consider Apple as having fully realized the error of their ways and moving decidedly in a less terrible direction. But alas, Federhigi is still in charge and they haven't brought Serlet back from retirement unfortunately.
Re:well that explains a lot (Score:5, Insightful)
Color is fine in a UI as long as it means something. If it's just decoration that creates cognitive load with no user benefit. Apple abandoned this idea back with pinstriping, Aqua, and whatever that look they had was called that was supposed to look like metal stereo components. I happened upon a System 7.6 machine the other day. I really felt much less frenetic than the modern machines.
Oh, the same goes for animations. They can be useful or they can be glam. Glam wastes my time and focus.
BTW, good idea, Apple, announcing a top floor slaughter while Wall St. is closed and a natural disaster is playing out.
Re:well that explains a lot (Score:4, Funny)
BTW, good idea, Apple, announcing a top floor slaughter while Wall St. is closed and a natural disaster is playing out.
Oh, you just think it's a coincidence? Apple has been planning this for weeks. They even made up the storm--remember that Apple computers are used in video special-effects. There is no hurricane. It's a conspiracy between Apple and Obama!
Yeah! That's the ticket!
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the game center that made me feel like I trapped in some creepy casino with chain smokers and octagenarian gambling addicts
The fact that it made you feel like that means it succeeded at drawing you in. It wasn't the effect they wanted, but it implies that a skeuomorphic interface does have a use. And it does. It isn't innately bad (note the similarity to Microsoft's ribbon interface: it isn't innately bad, but Microsoft's implementation makes it hard to use).
I'm not sure how I feel about that, I really don't like using an OS that is drab and boring
The War on Color won't be too bad, I don't think; it's more like 'use color sparingly to increase its impact.' Look at the way the colored ipads shine in front of a sparse
Siri and iMaps is a TV joke now (Score:5, Interesting)
Look, it's bad when people on TV use Siri and iMaps as a joke for a bunch of different shows. I've seen it on commericals, sitcoms, and of course stand up comedy.
Granted it's more Siri related, but the iMaps get said a bit also.
Siri i can understand not working, we are talking speech recognition, but a map program? That is seriously bad.
Lets see how they fix it though.
Just another case of office politics (Score:5, Insightful)
It's well known that Scott Forstall didn't get along with the others. He's been called a "mini-Steve (Jobs)" and described as "maddeningly political":
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html [businessweek.com]
If he was ousted, it's probably due more to the others thinking he's an asshole. The Maps debacle provides a convenient excuse, but I doubt it's the real reason behind this. This is just another political backstabbing, that's all.
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I hope they dont have to recall him, like they had to for Jobs.
Re:Just another case of office politics (Score:5, Funny)
Scott Forstall's departure was planned. (Score:5, Informative)
If you check SEC company executive stock records, one can find that Scott Forstall has sold off his Apple Stock options earlier this year, in preparation for a possible departure. His departure has actually been planned for several weeks, but was not announced until today along with the departure of John Browett, who was Sr. VP for Retails operations for Apple.
The current executive reorganization of Mr. Forstall's duties have been spread over several senior Apple executives, distributing responsibilities according to their current function. Read the press release to see the respective changes.
Some people have speculated that Scott Forstall might be the ultimate successor to Steve Jobs, since he came with Steve from NeXT computer back to Apple in 1997. He has been involved in the development of Mac OS X, including heading the Leopard OS development and development of the Aqua user interface in OS X, along with leading the development of iPhone and later iOS system software since 2004.
I don't know what Scott Forstall plans to do, but there is some speculation that he might be involved a project with a former Apple engineer. Needless to say, he probably has a non-compete clause with Apple, he will have respect for a while given his critical involvement with key Apple products like the iPhone, iPad and iOS system software.
I would not be surprised to see Scott come back to Apple sometime in the future, but he has earned a well-earned sabbatical given his recent efforts.
Scott won't be missed. (Score:5, Interesting)
Scott has been messing up. The interface designs are getting out of control on iOS and OS X, and hopefully Ive will fix that. Maps and Siri still don't work as advertised (though they are getting better all the time). I don't think Scott will be missed. It makes a LOT of sense to reorganize how they did, though Mansfeld though should have retired......
The other guy, good riddance. His managing of the Apple Stores is questionable to say the least.
It means Apple has peaked (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It means Apple has peaked (Score:5, Interesting)
The whole point you are making happened many years ago, arguably before Steve came back. Every "innovation" Apple has had over the past ten years was someone else's idea given just enough refinement and advertising to get consumers to like it.
Smartphone, that was IBM, Microsoft, Sony, and RIM long before Apple. Apple just managed to consumerize ideas from the corporate tool world. The same goes for tablets. Microsoft never moved their primary UI to be compatible before now with touch and stylus interaction, but Gates kept evangelizing the concept until Jobs actually went and had a regular OS trimmed and locked down to where touch was easy for the uninitiated. Even the iPod was nowhere near the first or best MP3 player, but Apple managed to leverage iTunes and advertising, never superior hardware, to sell lots of hardware. Ultrabook (MBA)? Fujitsu, Sony, NEC, and Toshiba had powerful fully spec'd ultra compact laptops available overseas for 5 or 6 years prior (Dynamism was the primary importer for US buyers).
Apple is not losing their edge, they are simply having to compete now that other OEMs and software developers have had time to develop consumer, rather than professionally oriented products, in markets which have been gestating for several years. Apple has never done well competing on even ground.
Forseen (Score:4, Interesting)
Terrific, decisive moves. (Score:5, Interesting)
Forstall sounds like he was kind of a cancer and his excess skeumorphism ruptured an otherwise seamless aesthetic that is a big part of why a lot of people but Apple products. Browett had a bad record and was never a good fit for Apple IMO and his idiocy with trying to draw down clerk hours to save a few bucks demonstrates a cultural disjoint between him and Apple's obsession with customer experience. If your customers don't feel special they will not pay premium margins. A discount retail approach would convert their hugely powerful retail outlets into cost centers.
The Maps issues aren't related to anything but the quality of data as far as I'm aware. I have no idea if that's his fault, or if it was his fault to put Maps on prematurely, but strategically I think Apple had to divest Google from their platform there at some point.
A Vote for Back to Basics (Score:4, Interesting)
As someone that now relies on Apple products (Score:3)
and the Apple ecosystem (for the last three years) and that has worried about Apple without Jobs (and even more after the maps fiasco), this reassures me. Love the move, and just saw Tim Cook climb on my respect ladder.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Insightful)
The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship.
This is more like bilge water being pumped out of a ship, after the damage to the hull has been repaired.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Funny)
They have so much money it's sinking the ship.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Funny)
From the pictures I saw, I know of one ship (if you can call it that) that should be sunk.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Funny)
"The iShip is syncing..."
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Down 15% in 6 weeks. Apple definitely qualifies as a sinking stock. As to whether the ship itself will sink... one can only hope. Realistically I expect that we will be stuck with Apple and its bad acting for quite some time to come. However a humbled, smaller Apple will definitely be easier to tolerate that the current arrogant, destructive corporate bully.
Continuing the ship analogy, Apple board would be wise to make Tim Cook walk the plank without delay. But it is a safe bet they will continue to act the
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:4, Insightful)
Down 15% for good reason, it was overvalued. The entire market is. The Dow shouldn't be above 10k as long as unemployment is above 8%.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Interesting)
Down 15% because the wall street analysts are playing shenanigans. Amazon posts a $274 million LOSS, and there isn't a single article in the news about it. Apple posts profits that are a little bit less than the made up numbers the analysts pulled out of their asses, and all the news sources practically shit themselves over the 'disappointing' news, conveniently ignoring the fact that the record 8.2 billion in profits happen to be 26% up over the year ago quarter and their best 4th quarter ever.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Informative)
You don't understand the first thing about stocks, do you? Of course the pricing of the company will follow all the information about the company, not just the formal quarterly earning announcements.
Amazon, for instance, told everybody that they were spending massive amounts of money in expanding its infrastructure (mostly, building large warehouses near urban areas, instead of shipping from Nevada to San Francisco for instance).
It's not a shenanigan, it's just people quite sensibly pricing the stock to match the news. For instance, Amazon let people know about the expansion plans, the news was widely disseminated and analyzed, etc.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Insightful)
Down 15% for good reason, it was overvalued.
A superficial claim devoid of analysis. A company that consistently turns in 20% annual growth would normally be rewarded with a far higher earnings multiple than Apple's current 14. This is a clear signal: the smart money does not expect Apple's earnings to continue to grow at anything like that. In fact, even 5% annual growth would be worth a multiple of 25 to 30 if there was any confidence it would continue. A multiple of 14 in fact reflects a significant perception that Apple's earnings will shrink. I'm with that camp, and that's not just wishful thinking, it's because Android and at-cost products from Google and Amazon mean the high margin party is over. This is plain enough to see.
BTW, that's all just elementary risk/reward analysis. It's not hard. Everybody who consistently makes money trading stocks understands it well.
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:5, Insightful)
The "smart money" thought the same thing when the stock was at $50. Now its north of $500. The smart money aint too smart.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, no. Stock price is simply an instantaneous measure of the relative attractiveness of a stock vs it's peers.
Historically, potential attractiveness is measured by some folks as proportional to projected future earnings (PE ratio), but that is a created reality, not anything fundamental. Simply because others think that is an appropriate measure, it becomes a somewhat usable measure (in that it approximates the "attractiveness" utility function of people competing to buy the stock). In the '90's bubble, when net earnings per share for some hot companies weren't high enough to justify high prices via the PE metric, the stock papperazzi dug up an old out-of-favor metric called Price Earnings to Growth (PEG). By dividing by growth, the that made these low PE, high-growth companies suddenly appear more attractive. That didn't work for firms with negative net earnings, so they made up new ways to measure potential earnings (e.g., normalized revenue with sustainable margins). This just goes to show that the measures of attractiveness of a stock can and will change over time.
Another big factor in a stock price is the total amount of money being invested in the stock market. As more money pours in, stocks get boosted somewhat in proportion to their relative attractiveness, so even in projected future earnings are the same, the stock price will go up. As 401k and pension funds have more money to invest or if say bond interest rates hover at all time historic lows, more money will pour into the stock market. In this environment, stocks will go up regardless of changes in measures of earnings (same supply of stock, more demand results in higher prices). To help satisfy this demand more companies will issue stock (e.g., IPOs, secondary offerings, etc) to attempt to sastify demand.
Of course a stock price or and index has little to do with unemployment, but because of money flow pressures, a stock price does bear some relation to an index (which is a rough measure of money flow into a basket of stocks). If you believe that a stock is priced "efficiently", projected corporate profit is "built-in" to the stock price and thus it's relative attractiveness. Only if stocks "crush" or "miss" their projections, is there a forcing function to change attractiveness.
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Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Because he had some perfectionist tendencies. That was one thing that set Apple apart from Microsoft - you might not like what they did, but they usually did it thoroughly. That seems to be falling apart a bit.
Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. The maps fiasco is more like something that came out of Redmond than out of Apple. I can well imagine Ballmer going "So it doesn't work? Well fuck it. Release it anyways." Basically he's done that on a few occasions. But Jobs, egomaniacal control freak that he was, would never have allowed it to go to production like that.
Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (Score:5, Interesting)
He let Siri go live. In fact, he saved it for himself to announce in the last keynote he did. The key distinction there is that he set expectations appropriately with Siri. He introduced it as a beta that was still in need of work, but that he thought it was ready to show and to let others use. He explained that there would be issues, but that they'd work them out. Had they done the same with Maps, there would not have been such a big issue. But because Forstall showed off a perfect demo and claimed the usual "just works" level of polish, anything less than that would mean a big disappointment. And it was a disappointment for many people when it didn't just work.
Honestly, Steve Jobs let several things go live that shouldn't have. Remember the MobileMe release? Heads rolled over that, with one Senior Vice President getting the boot. That was actually a much bigger deal at the time than this Maps thing is now.
Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The "but this is a beta" approach with Maps wouldn't have been good enough. Siri was something that was portrayed as new and innovative. It wasn't something where they were trying to create a higher level of vertical integration by replacing an already well established feature.
There are important distinctions some times. Apple fans sometimes miss those.
Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, you're definitely correct, but you also need to remember that the Maps issues getting the most press are the ones where the new 3D view is showing something bizarre, like the Brooklyn Bridge looking like a sine curve or something of that sort. If you rendered those issues moot by having set the bar a bit lower, you would have taken a good chunk of the wind out of the sails of the people complaining. Though you'd still have people complaining about location data being incorrect, the volume would not have been nearly as loud without the other issues to reinforce them.
I'm not suggesting Maps is bug-free or something of that sort. All I'm suggesting is that they could have handled the situation a lot better than they did, and that that's exactly what Steve Jobs did when he last released something that he knew was buggy.
Re: (Score:3)
No Apple fan who already admits a beta label on Maps would've been a good idea, thinks that this one measure would've been "good enough". It would definitely have been better than what they did, though (i.e. not even attempt to manage expectations).
There still would've been a shitstorm and mockery, but without the initial arrogance of claiming it just works, users and the media would've been a little more forgiving and the internet echo chamber wouldn't have been as intense.
Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (Score:5, Informative)
Because he had some perfectionist tendencies. That was one thing that set Apple apart from Microsoft - you might not like what they did, but they usually did it thoroughly. That seems to be falling apart a bit.
Sort of like how mobileme worked amazingly well out of the box. Or how about siri working well with accents or just in general with a variety of voices. Same deal with the antennas on the iphone 4. Apple has a fairly long history of hardware issues on their first version of any new hardware. Steve Jobs being a perfectionist didn't prevent this.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Well, Steve wasn't running Apple back in the day; Mike Scott and Mike Markkula were. Steve's youth, temperament, and inexperience were among the reasons for bringing in Sculley as well, and we all know what happened then. His position in Apple after he returned was very, very different than it had been before.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:4, Insightful)
i don't even know how to interpret that.
Apple and the trust of the community?
Apple, so far as I have seen, is either loved unconditionally, or disliked for various reasons.
Was there a part of "the community" that was waiting to be won over? Community CUPS devs?
It's a cute notion, like the way children believe in Santa Claus. But corporations are not compatible with any real sense of community. Corporations are perfect tyrannies. Real community means people who share, it's a give-and-take that enriches everyone who participates. Corporations seek only to enrich themselves. All of them, not just Apple. That's why they have to spend so much money on marketing to appear otherwise. It is not their natural undisguised apperance at all.
Fanboys aside, pragmatists aren't very fond of Apple. Pragmatists aren't suckered by hype. That is why they realize how strongly Apple resembles Microsoft in its heyday. Apple is perhaps worse - until recently Microsoft didn't so strongly control what could run on Windows the way Apple controls their walled garden. Apple is just more talented at appearing innocuous. Their marketing is more effective. No one proudly sported Windows the way some Apple fans show off their iDevices. Still doesn't change the nature of the corporation though.
And the way this cult of personality surrounding Jobs lives on long after the man's death is just plain disturbing. He was an abusive control freak and generally not a very nice guy at all. He didn't design anything. His only genius was making money. I don't see investment bankers getting this kind of love and adoration, for good reason. People like him being in charge of everything is part of why the world is so fucked up. Now lots of emotionally puerile types get all upset when you throw cold water on their hero fantasies and dare to suggest that their idol wasn't the first perfect person, that a man who appeared larger than life was still just a man. So be it.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:4, Insightful)
Fanboys aside, pragmatists aren't very fond of Apple. Pragmatists aren't suckered by hype. That is why they realize how strongly Apple resembles Microsoft in its heyday. Apple is perhaps worse - until recently Microsoft didn't so strongly control what could run on Windows the way Apple controls their walled garden. Apple is just more talented at appearing innocuous. Their marketing is more effective. No one proudly sported Windows the way some Apple fans show off their iDevices. Still doesn't change the nature of the corporation though.
Have you ever considered the possibility that some people actually *value* a walled garden? Like nearly everyone who isn't a tech geek? Which is like 99% of the people buying these devices?
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:4, Informative)
I've heard iphone users complain that they can't get swype and can't get Google Maps or turn-by-turn navigation or any number of things that are on Android...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You can and have been able to get turn-by-turn on iOS for years, just not from the default maps app.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've heard iphone users complain that they can't get swype and can't get Google Maps or turn-by-turn navigation or any number of things that are on Android...
iOS 6 turn-by-turn navigation puts Garmin's app to shame.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've heard Android users complain that they can't tell which of thirty apps with intentionally deceptive names is the actual app they're trying to get, and that their 6 month old handset only supports a year-old version of Android.
Walled gardens and totally open platforms each have their advantages and disadvantages, and users will have different preferences based on their needs. What a shock, right?
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:4, Interesting)
Using CAPITALS to emphasize RANDOM words in your POST doesn't make the post any more USEFUL. Apple DIDN'T want to PAY (alright, enough of that) for a feature from a service Google sells, Apple was paying for the mapping, but not paying for turn-by-turn navigation and wanted that data for free. Google set a price for this (obviously quite valuable) service, and Apple decided to sacrifice pretty much their entire design philosophy rather than pay Google anything, and released a half-baked clusterfuck.
Google didn't withhold anything from Apple, just set prices for various aspects of their service. If Apple didn't want to pay and instead piss off their own customers with an inferior replacement, that's all Apple's doing. But you'd have to lack any kind of business sense to think that Google should have just given Apple this data for free.
I would have kept Google Maps, as would have most rational businesses concerning a major feature of their core product that works great and is exactly what the customers want, rather than move it in-house and release it before it's ready on a new flagship product.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, the story I've heard from fairly authoritative sources is that what Google wanted was the text "Google" on the Maps display so that people knew that the data was coming from Google.
Apple did not like that and it was a deal breaker for them.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft is/was evil.
Google only knows evil because of their advertising mindset.
Apple is evil because you can't do whatever the hell you want.
Linux sucks because there's no unified vision of how things are supposed to work (both in UIs and APIs).
What am I supposed to use? FreeDOS? WebOS? AmigaOS?
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:4)
There are no UIs in Linux.
No, but there is at least one in every Linux distribution. As to the AC GP, I feel sorry for the guy, standing in the grocery store trying to figure out whether he wants Maxwell House, Folgers, or the store brand coffee. God help him if he ever decides to buy a car!
This "there's too much choice in Linux" is just brain-dead stupid.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you ever considered the possibility that some people actually *value* a walled garden?
Some people highly value smoking crack. This alone is not proof of merit.
Like nearly everyone who isn't a tech geek? Which is like 99% of the people buying these devices?
If you are claiming that only "tech geeks" could possibly appreciate unrestricted freedom of choice, that is interesting. I would be willing to entertain your reasoning, but so far I haven't seen it. Personally, I think it's a nice euphamistic way of saying that most people are far too stupid to be trusted with choices. The funny thing about that, is that if stupidity is universally expected, it tends to become the norm. When it's viewed as pathological, it tends to be limited to only the few who really can't do better.
I also have doubts that it's healthy to design everything for the absolute beginner, rather than viewing "newbie" as a transitory and most temporary stage along the path to at least some small degree of competence. But it's difficult to have this conversation around here. Few seem to recognize that "small degree of competence" does not mean "expert" due to some strange tendency to go to extremes. It's a bit mysterious, since it's inconsistent with any contact with reality and its myriad shades of grey.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Insightful)
The computer is an appliance. You press a button, it sends an e-mail. You press another one, it plays music for you. If it breaks, you call someone to fix it or you toss it to the curb and get a new one. I'm not saying these people are stupid, I'm just saying they have different priorities.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Funny)
The Apple Washing machine will only allow you to wash blue jeans and black turtlenecks. You can buy an extension in the store to wash white T-Shirts. The app for washing black jeans or red turtlenecks was rejected because it was a conflict of interest for Apple.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple and Microsoft couldn't give a flying fuck about the average person figuring out the full range of possibilities that computers offer. Any more than the head of Maytag stay up at night with nightmares of everyone suddenly deciding to become washing machine mechanics in their spare time.
There is no conspiracy. There is no great shadow hovering above and preventing people from waking up to what their computer can do. Most of them have a pretty good idea of what computers can do. They often don't have the vocabulary or means to make it happen, but if you have ever dealt with a user figuring out a new task they tend to have a very realistic idea of what is possible (at least in the abstract) and then once they figure out their new thing that go back to ignoring everything else.
Because there is an opportunity cost to computers. And most people don't enjoy paying that cost. They get far more enjoyment out of playing in a local baseball league or building model trains or learning to cook or take dance lessons or just watching movies with friends.
Every single possible roadblock could be removed and the vast majority of the population would not care and could not be made to care. Because they are busy doing more interesting (to them) things. And for people who are already interested in computers there are no roadblocks worth speaking of.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Funny)
To technical people, the average /.er, the computer is a tool. You code something, the computer does it.
Well said. But consider that to average people, the average /.er is a tool.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everyone finds spending their time geeking out on their phone to be rewarding, interesting, or something they have any real interest in doing. That isn't smoking crack, it's simply a different priority.
Most people limit the amount of cognitive overhead they have to shoulder when it comes to things they don't find terribly interesting or important. In the case of people who prefer a walled garden for their devices, this can be one of those things. One place to go for software, one pace to go for support, and they don't have to waste time thinking about all those options.
Some people do this with clothing or food. I know a lot of geeks who wear essentially the same outfit on a daily basis because they just don't care enough about clothes to bother thinking about it past "does it pass the sniff test?" I know a lot of people who eat roughly the same thing for breakfast every day because they just want fuel for their body and don't want to have to think about what they're eating. There's nothing wrong with doing this, and we all actually do this to some degree or another,
Let me throw a challenge to you: I want you to think about the clothes you're wearing. Think about the materials used - where did they come from? How are they made? Why were those materials chosen instead of some other set? What about the design - who designed each piece, and why did they make the choices they did (buttons vs. snaps, handling of seams, style of collar etc.)? What were their influences - what was the evolution of each item and how it came about from a series of iterations throughout the history of couture? What about the colors - what kind of dye did they use and why? What was your decision process when you bought it, what about your decision process when you picked it out to wear today?
Is it fair for me to say you're smoking crack because you probably don't geek out on fashion?
To you, I'm guessing clothing is just something you wear because you have to and you don't want to think about much.. To people who prefer a walled garden for their various devices, gadgets are just something they use because they need something to do that stuff, and they don't want to think about much.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:5, Informative)
i've been working with unix since the early 1980's. almost every engineer i personally know from that era is using a mac. it has nothing to do with being a fanboy... it's about the best non-server unix environment.
Re:trust of the community???? (Score:4, Insightful)
And most people recognize that it's odd that tech geeks care so much about choices other people make, and about products they don't own.
Re:sucks (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:sucks (Score:4, Insightful)
This means Jack Shit, it's standard mokey politics for an incoming boss, sack a few high profile monkeys and the other monkeys will fall into line. A boss who isn't noticed and can't hand pick his entorage is a figure head, not a leader.
When you are insecure and/or can't earn the genuine respect and admiration of those around you by means of your talent, expertise, and inspiring leadership, I suppose you might become desperate enough to resort to such Machiavellian tactics as this.
If he can't be better than a monkey, he wants to be the biggest monkey. What a shame that so many don't understand this is not real respect. Not even close. Of course it's not realistic to expect basic wisdom from the kind of dehumanized sociopaths who tend to run corporations, but I can dream.
Re:sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that the dehumanized sociopaths running companies are competing against other sociopaths. If a new CEO shows any weakness, the other sociopaths will conspire to oust them. Just as Kim Jong-Un had to purge a bunch of his father's old advisers in order to solidify his grip on North Korea, so too must new CEOs purge a board member or two in order to prove they're the boss.
It's not about what's best for the company. People who genuinely have the company's interests at heart won't be able to compete in that world. When you realize what sort of people these are, and what sort of world they live in, it's utterly unsurprising that their actions make no sense to us. They're practically a different species.
Re:sucks (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not surprised that you got modded so highly for the old 'everyone above me on the corporate ladder is a sociopath' meme, as it certainly sits well among the 'downtrodden' Engineering types so common around these parts.
Could it also be possible that when part of a hierarchical organization fucks up really badly, someone near the top of that part of the organization should be ultimately held responsible, because it was that person's *job* to ensure that they'd hired the right people under them and put the right processes in place in order to avoid publicly embarrassing failures?
Or does believing that bit of 'business common sense' also make me a sociopath?
Re:sucks (Score:5, Interesting)
OR we do not really know what happened are are making an assumption?
We do know that IOS 6 sucked. It had power issues, maps were unusable, and Sirii still has issues. To this day people love putitng pics on facebook of IPhones misinterpretting things in embarrasing conversations.
I would fire several people too. Not to show who is boss and be a badass, but because that should not have been released PERIOD. Did they do any QA at all? WTF. I could be wrong too and Cook could have demanded it and ignored issues but this would be likely a good termination ... well except for the guy who got canned.
Re:sucks (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to show who is boss and be a badass, but because that should not have been released PERIOD. Did they do any QA at all? WTF..
Seriously? From the debacle that is the product just released at $work, with huge rounds of all-levels-of-management congratulations for getting the product out the door, I'd say that nothing matters other than the date. Not functionality, not quality, not employee retention (12-16 hour days, 7 days a week, for 3 months?). Nothing other than that date. It was going to be delivered come hell or high water.
If it doesn't pan out, someone may lose their job. Maybe a few people. But probably not the same people who decided to deliver on a particular date regardless of readiness.
If Apple is anything like this, it doesn't matter whether QA was finished their job or not. A particular event was scheduled, an announcement had to be made, the product had to be delivered, whether ready or not.
Re:sucks (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously? From the debacle that is the product just released at $work, with huge rounds of all-levels-of-management congratulations for getting the product out the door, I'd say that nothing matters other than the date. Not functionality, not quality, not employee retention (12-16 hour days, 7 days a week, for 3 months?). Nothing other than that date. It was going to be delivered come hell or high water.
This, precisely, brought Nokia to where it is now. Failure to acknowledge quality slips early and take action to fix the dysfunctional development culture that caused them. Any company that allows it will destroy itself in the long run.
Re:sucks (Score:5, Funny)
We apologize again for the faults in iOS 6. Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.
Re:Scott Forstall: good riddance. (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh I don't know, Steve was fairly slimy. His treatment of Chrissann Brennan, for example, or how he cheated Woz out of money when Steve was at Atari.