Apple Forcing IT Shops To 'Adapt Or Die' 715
alphadogg writes "Many IT departments are struggling with Apple's 'take it or leave it' attitude, based on discussions last week at MacIT, which is Macworld|iWorld's companion conference for IT professionals. Much of the questioning following technical presentations wasn't about Apple technology or products. It was about the complexities and confusions of trying to sort out for the enterprise Apple's practices. Those practices include the use of Apple IDs and iTunes accounts, which are designed for individual Mac or iPad or iPhone users, and programs like Apple's Volume Purchase Program, which, according to Apple 'makes it simple to find, buy, and distribute the apps your business needs' and to buy custom, third-party B2B apps."
what does (Score:5, Insightful)
an iTunes account have to do with the business workplace and enterprise computing - no iTunes on company computers - problem solved!
Re:what does (Score:5, Informative)
Well the fanboys will mod you down for that.
But you are correct, itunes has no place on a corporate machine. And quite frankly the idea you need a music player to manage a phone is like saying you need a fish to manage your bicycle.
Itunes can be placed on the users home machine. Its not at all certain you can SECURELY accommodate iPhones in the work place AND prevent itunes from being installed. However there is an Apple iPhone Configuration utility [apple.com] that is supposed to do this.
I have yet to see it in use anywhere, but some claim you can use on the corporate network and still block itunes on corporate machines.
Re:what does (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:what does (Score:5, Insightful)
I fully agree with you. Itunes is an abomination.
Apple makes good hardware.
But iTunes is an utter embarrassment to the company. The programming staff should all be fired. I've never seen such an ill behaved piece of software. They make Adobe look like wizards.
Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:5, Insightful)
You forgot something, eventually IT shops have to do what their users want...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not in regulated environments, they don't. Users who try to do what they want in those environments can find themselves being escorted out of the building by security with their last paycheck and a promise to have their belongings shipped to them in hand.
Re:Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
Um... so define "regulated". Until five months ago I worked for a Federal Government Contractor, held a security clearance, and did work day to day on classified machines. My workplace was piloting the use of iPhones for e-mail and corporate access when I left. Of course you couldn't put classified information on them, but you couldn't put classified information laptops either, so that's not saying much. There's all kinds of rules for what you can and can't do regarding classified, but for unclassified uses, iPhones are likely as common as Blackberries and laptops there now.
My brother works for a hospital. Out side of the government, probably the most regulated industry in the country. He has a work issued iPad. Again, it's not allowed to contain patient information but neither are any other phones or portable devices that leave the hospital. I currently work for an international security company. We use iPhones for e-mail and corporate messaging.
Indeed, the only "regulated" industry that I can't claim at least some insider knowledge of is finance, so maybe that the one you're thinking of... Otherwise "regulated industry" is caving to user desire to use iDevices and Android in the workplace.
Re:Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the point is that the King User (i.e. CTO), if they become an Apple user, will dictate that the IT shop *will* support Apple products.
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You forgot something, eventually Apple will have to do what their users in IT want
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Exactly. IT organizations are tolerated in organizations because the company wants the benefits that information technology gives them. Businesses accept that there is a need for controls and policies to protect the organization from malicious use of technology and that these policies are a classic trade-off between risk and productivity value. Of course each organization has different tolerance for risk and different expectations for value. But at the end of the day, if an IT organization fails to deliver
Re:Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:5, Insightful)
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Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Spoken like someone who has never worked in tech support.
IT has to enable the company to make money, not pander to the user. We report to our boss, not yours, this includes every time a user refuses to do something we tell them to do.
If you dont understand you work for the companies interest, not the users interest you will get off t
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> You forgot something, eventually IT shops have to do what their users want...
No they don't.
You have very strange ideas about corporate IT.
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keeping your website compatible with safari != supporting apple devices within an IT infrastructure.
Re:Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple is still a niche player. IT shops can easily buy elsewhere, and bring in policies that lock out employee-owned devices. How is this a good business model for Apple?
Apple is not a player in business and enterprise period and it's far too easy to buy elsewhere.
Apple products get met with one word from my department, unsupported.
When a user complains about not being able to use their Macbook because it cant log into half the systems we use the problem is theirs because the platform is unsupported. Having done mac support before, I'll quit before having to touch another mac. Mac solutions came in three types, 50% of the time it cant be done, 40% of the time it's a hack, 10% the feature was there but so poorly implemented it's still a pain to use let alone administer. Support was a pain, it took those "geniuses" at Apple a week to fix a blown PSU in an Imac, they didn't do collect and return let alone the on site next business day support I got from Dell, Lenovo, IBM and Toshiba. Worse yet are the users, when a virus makes it onto the network, most of the time it came from a Mac user forwarding Adobe_CS3_Crack.exe to someone.
So I have a very long list of reasons why Apple products are on the unsupported list.
Re:Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
Thanks for falling into the trap AC.
Chevron 2011 profit = $26.5
Apple 2011 profit = $25.9 B
The difference is, Chevron will consistently post high profits, Apple is a bubble waiting to burst.
Re:Apple forcing IT shops to buy elsewhere (Score:4, Informative)
Apple is still a niche player.
Yes it is, so long as your definition of "niche player" is "the biggest maker of PCs in the world".
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/apple-becomes-worlds-biggest-maker-of-computers-thanks-to-ipad/ [nytimes.com]
apple does not have real server hardware at least (Score:2)
apple does not have real server hardware at least come at least let sever run in a VM on any base hardware.
The mini sever lacks alot of stuff a real sever has and the mac pro lacks some of the same stuff as well + it's a very poor fit.
the license only let's it run on mac hardware (Score:4, Informative)
[The 2007 Mac OS X 10.5 Server EULA] permits OS X Server to run in a virtual machine (VM) as long as each VM is stocked with a different license and the physical system is Apple-made. The new rules don't apply to the client edition of Apple's operating system, which is still barred from being virtualized.
The Golden Master version of OS X Lion (10.7) just released to developers includes the final end-user licensing agreement (EULA) which reveals that users can run up to two additional instances of OS X Lion on their same machine without a need for extra licenses. From the 10.7 EULA:
(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software.
So apple needs to make a license change so you can use VMware on any hardware useing any base OS with out getting in license issues.
Arrogance beyond belief (Score:5, Insightful)
So you think because a few million people run Apps that the entire corporate infrastructure, the existing mainframe, unix, windows, and linux systems, and EVERYTHING ELSE is going to change to make ROOM for Apple in the enterprise?
Sir, you SERIOUSLY underestimate your importance to North American enterprises. Even Microsoft isn't that ignorant of their REAL place in the IT industry.
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So you think because a few million people run Apps that the entire corporate infrastructure, the existing mainframe, unix, windows, and linux systems, and EVERYTHING ELSE is going to change to make ROOM for Apple in the enterprise?
Sir, you SERIOUSLY underestimate your importance to North American enterprises. Even Microsoft isn't that ignorant of their REAL place in the IT industry.
I think the iPhone has an app for Enterprise Payroll...
j/k
Re:Arrogance beyond belief (Score:5, Funny)
Funny story - the president of my company recently got an iPhone 4. For convenience, he decided he wanted to set it up to work with his BMW for hands-free use. Sounds simple, right?
I suppose with any other phone, it would have been. He found out that he would have to update the firmware on his car's computer systems (yes, plural - 16, in fact!). Not to be deterred by this, he had the dealer go ahead and apply the updates. In the end, they bricked his car trying to get it to inter-operate with his phone.
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I don't doubt your anecdote at all. But the idea that other phones are in general easier to get working in a car is ridiculous. Either it's going to be a generic fit, and that's going to fit any phone,including the iPhone, just as easily. Or it's going to be a proprietary fit, and that's going to be for the iPhone.
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ECU - Engine Control Unit
Apple's initial failure (Score:3)
Back in the 1980's they failed to come to grips with what Business Users expected of a PC - thus Microsoft's fortunes were made.
Repeat?
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No. Users are the ones forcing the draconian policies of IT shops to change. iPhone, then iPads are being made "exceptions" to established policies because IT shops can't say no to the huge onslaught of demand. People have suffered under corporate IT policies that make desktops/laptops agonizing tools to use and inhibit productivity.
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There has to be 2 tiers of IT policies - developers and users. Developers can manage themselves. Users have to be told that iTunes is not an option.
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If it's so plain-as-day that connecting all these devices is hurting the company, why are the users being blamed instead of making the financial case and having the suits approve a no-iDevice policy?
The CEO and the Chairman of the Board have iPhones and iPads. Quite possibly the CIO too. You won't persuade them that those things are truly harmful. You've already lost that argument. Give in with good grace and you'll look enormously better than if you have to be overridden (or dismissed and replaced in a down economy).
You might be able to argue that the device shouldn't be on the internal network and shouldn't have critical data on. That's much easier since it is a limited scope argument. You should als
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You think so? Maybe I'm being dense here but I've been following this hostility against BYOD for months now and the common complaint is that Jimmy the Marketing Droid barges into IT, demands his iPad be hooked up to the mail server, and for some reason IT is forced to do this and if only the other Marketing Droids would value the security of the company IT'd have more time for Youtube.
I've never understood this. I've worked at places where there were too many devices to support. People would say "Can I
Re:Apple's initial failure (Score:4, Informative)
Apple's struggles in the mid 80's were on a couple of fronts. They didn't have a compelling set of business software, and botched the launch of the Macintosh Office [wikipedia.org] with everything from slow availability to a terrible ad campaign. The Apple ][ and Mac divisions fought each other internally. And they built more expensive computers and demanded higher margins on them than their competitors, during a period where there was a massive price shake-out in the home computing market. The fundamental issue wasn't ignorance of what business users expected. It was failure to execute on delivering it, which went from product strategy mistakes to massive inventory mismanagement. John Sculley's "Odyssey" covers this period of Apple's history closely. The tried to win over the business market but just didn't do a very good job of it.
Nowadays, Apple is selling to consumers in droves and doesn't care at all about whatever traditional business IT departments want. They're not trying and failing this time; they're not even trying. The demand is coming up from individual people and pushing toward IT. In the 80's, there just wasn't enough demand to offset their production and R&D overhead.
Leave It (Score:4, Informative)
"Take it or Leave it"?
I would choose to leave it. Apple products, while "cool" and "neat" for the individual user, don't often work well in large enterprise environments.
This is just a fact of life.
Until better management tools are made to "manage" the apple devices / environment, they will still be a secondary (or greater) choice for enterprise environments.
Re:Leave It (Score:4, Informative)
They have pretty much lost the school system I work for with this rigid, we know better attitude. All administrators are on the lenovo tablet now. Supports AD and computrace right out of the box. Management tools are robust and support windows environments. We're ramping up to put tablet products on the schedule for students, it'll probably be the lenovo k1 ( or its upgrade) by then.
We had a school get 38 kindle fires, didn't ask IT of course. When we described the hell they would have to go through to manage and actually buy anything on them they were hastily returned, except the 1 that was opened. They were shocked that no, you cant buy stuff for all of them at once. Yes, you'll ned 38 different email addresses. No, if they get stolen they are gone and there is jack we can do to get them back.
It's like Occupy IT (Score:5, Insightful)
Until better management tools are made to "manage" the apple devices / environment, they will still be a secondary (or greater) choice for enterprise environments.
While I agree that Apple is very much sitting on its hands here, there is no way to ignore iDevices. It's almost like an "Occupy IT" movement. And the users are relishing our squirming and cursing. And while I'm an sysadmin myself, I'd almost say we deserve it to be on the receiving end this time. It's a comically reversed situation to how it usually works: Users are requiring simple things, you know they aren't that simple and you can't do anything really but learn and work and adapt and curse. Wow, that *hurts*. *They* are the ones who traditionally had to swallow what we rained down on them.
Now *they* are smug and wave their iPads ("it just works") and we have to find a way to make them work and to manage them. How unfair is this? Now *we* are clicking through iTunes for *them*! What goes around comes around, really.
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If it's corporate IT then employee owned devices should be banned from the network.
Re:Leave It (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, don't buy this. Not one bit.
I am an engineer at a large technical government entity. Apples -- both Macs and iPhones, and recently iPads as well -- are ubiquitous. At least 30% of direct employees use Macs, and more use iPhones.
IT has Apple specialists, but they handle the approximately 200-1,000 Macs out of 500-5,000 computer seats without fuss or complaint at each one of our centers.
I'm sorry, but in the end IT is there to help the engineers and managers do their jobs. While it's true that it would be impossible for those engineers and managers to function properly without IT support, the purpose of that support is to enable their work. If I as an engineer want a Mac, I will order a Mac from the online ordering system. If it breaks, I am going to call IT and ask them to please fix it. They will fix it, because it's why they're paid.
What's more is that this was true ten years ago at my agency when I first started. I've seen chief engineers of billion dollar projects at meetings making fun of the few non-mac people around the table...quite a sight to see.
Re:Leave It (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd like to know what you think the better alternative is. Apple currently ships the best Activesync compatible phone on the market, better than even Windows Phone 7. Android has barely started to ship something reasonable in ICS.
So if Apple products don't work well, what kind of smart phones are you going to be deploying?
Apple is not marketing towards the enterprise... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple markets their devices to consumers first, and they provide enough support for businesses so their stuff is accepted. This is why Apple paid Microsoft and licensed the ActiveSync protocol, so their devices would get past the corporate blood/brain barrier (which before that, only Blackberries and Windows Mobile devices could cross.)
It is just not in Apple's model to do that much for the enterprise. The XServe did not sell well so it got pulled. Same with Apple's SAN hardware. Even the old Mac Pro doesn't seem to be selling well, and has not gotten a refresh in a long time.
Apple knows that it makes its bread and butter selling to the dedicated fans who have been camping out for days at their stores for the latest iGadget. They know that trying to pitch to the enterprise will have a "meh" response at best.
Another example of this is how Apple handles product releases. As an IT person, I can sign a NDA in blood, and get a roadmap from IBM or Oracle about what they plan to do for future products, when to make sure funds are available for model refreshes, and timing budget constraints. Apple doesn't offer this. There is no way to time when to have funds ready for a product refresh when it comes to Macs or iDevices.
[1]: Ideally, Apple would make a Mac Pro case that could work as a tower, but also fit horizontally into a rack with just a simple drawer style mounting kit (similar to the venerable Ultra 450s.)
... Because Apple would need a complete rework (Score:4, Interesting)
Abstract: Apple is making boatloads of money selling stuff to people. Reconfiguring the company into an enterprise services firm is an unacceptable risk.
'Waaaay back in the day, I was invited to an Apple roadmap presentation for the various big Mac users in the greater LA area (mainly aerospace corps). Dating myself, the main heads up was the upcoming Mac IIfx. The current sealed lips paradigm wasn't always graven in stone.
But, that was before Windows 95 almost ate Apple's lunch, and Macs got kicked to the curb across "the enterprise"... almost simultaneously across North America. Almost as quickly, the ecosystem of Mac-related enterprise solution vendors ditched the platform. When Jobs returned to refocus the company's direction, the focus was on what he had left to work with: consumers (with bones thrown to graphics/video/audio pros). You could see this in his original product mix: iMac, iBook, the restyled G4 mini-towers, and eventually the iPod.
This ended up working so well that quite a few consumers really wanted to haul their Apple gear back to the enterprise... which is how Apple first got there, one MacPlus at a time. Now, with the iPhones and Pads, people aren't just sneaking their toys in, they're putting in purchase orders, and the IT departments are forced to adjust.
It's not completely unreasonable for them to ask Apple to rework their products to make this a bit easier. It may happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath: Apple isn't equipped to service the enterprise, and doesn't want to spend the money to make it happen. The boys and girls in Cupertino would need to spend tens, perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars to set up the hardware/software/people infrastructure - more or less from scratch - to provide reasonable enterprise marketing and support.
And why? There's not all that much profit in selling to the enterprise, except in services. Virtually *all* of the non-Asian computer vendors have reconfigured themselves into enterprise services companies that just happened to sell some hardware/software for them to integrate, and the Asian companies are on the same path.
Apple, meanwhile, is making a boatload of money selling hardware/software to people. There is plenty of foreseeable risk and little known upside to reengineering themselves into the likes of IBM/HP/Dell.
It is a hassle... (Score:4, Informative)
Recently I had to deal with Apple's App Store. Our agency's purchasing people had no idea how to handle the App Store as the purchase has to be done from the user's computer. I spoke with an Apple government rep and he admitted that things are not set up for companies unless you're buying at least 30 (?) of something. Our purchasing folks ended up giving me the department credit card (now, there's trust!) and let me make the purchase from my cubicle. Not that hard to deal with, but certainly not standard procedure...
Way More Complicated Than That (Score:4, Informative)
First, let me point out that Apple's model isn't even a fantastic fit for a family, using my own experience. In order to buy music through iTunes, which we do a fair bit of, we need an AppleID. For all the convenience features (like automatically downloading music that any of us buys, for instance), we have to use the same AppleID on all the computers/devices that we use for storing the music, listening to it, or loading it on the phones/iPods/etc. And even with iCloud, this works reasonably smoothly, because you can set one AppleID for your music and another for everything else, so that you can still share music but not, say, email.
OK, but that means that our playlists are shared (which we can deal with by using folders for our individual playlists), but so is the metadata. Mostly, that's a good thing, but what if my wife and I and my sons want to all rate the same song differently? Out of luck: the rating is shared. I could go on about what should be shared and what shouldn't, but the point is that Apple does not make it easy to share some things and not others even within a family. I imagine that trying to work AppleIDs and iDevices into an enterprise must be quite the nightmare from that point of view.
There are solutions to some such problems, and certainly different IT shops have different ways of doing things, which means that for some (including my current one), it's easy while for others it's a complete nightmare. Fundamentally, if you have an IT shop where integrating is easy, there's little reason not to do it. If you'd need Apple servers, or more control over devices (say, if you're regulated, or a government entity), then you're probably out of luck and should tell users — yes, even users like the C-level types — that they're welcome to use whatever they want, but IT cannot support it.
In some cases, this means that IT shops as we are used to them will have to dramatically change to accommodate their users. And in some cases, it means that the users will have to live with the restrictions. I can see some shops moving to a model where internal users are treated like external users, except that they have access to different resources through their (untrusted) network connection to the servers. VPNs would be unnecessary: just connect to resources directly over the network, "local" or remote, and be done with it. In other words, I could see some shops moving to a model that protects the data, but not the desktop. But I think other shops will likely have to dig in their heels, not because they want to be difficult, but because they cannot allow the kinds of practices that Apple would require. (Think of trying to manage a bank's customer data when you couldn't properly audit the machines used to access that data, and then think of trying to explain that to a bureaucrat.)
But in the end, I think that the general purpose computer in a decade or so will be far less common than today. Thin client devices, tablets and the like will replace a lot of computers simply because of cost, maintenance, training and business utility advantages intrinsic to the types. And that means that IT shops will lose a lot of the control that they have now over the user experience. They'll still keep control of the centralized data stores, certainly, but that may be the extent of it for a lot of shops. And that's not necessarily a bad thing: in truth, how many users really need something as powerful and flexible as a laptop? Maybe 10% — maybe? Well, why not make things cheaper and easier for the other 90%, even if it does make IT's job harder in some ways?
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The sort of problems companies are running into with the "IT can't support that" mindset are the myriad back-door ways to get devices running. IT won't let your iPhone on the network due to wireless security issues? Plug your own Wi-Fi router into the wired network port at your desk, have the phone connect to that network through that instead. It's not just that people are showing up at work with their iDevices. Home users are now exposed to enough networking trivia that they feel (rightly) that they ca
Same song, 37 millionth verse (Score:3)
Apple's philosophy (Score:5, Insightful)
Why will IT shops "die" without Apple? (Score:3)
I don't get it. Most IT shops won't touch Apple, and those shops are doing fine. I have worked in IT for over 30 years. I have never seen Apple having much clout in enterprize level IT, and I still don't.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
He actually made computing cool.
First, who gives a shit? Second, he didn't make computing cool - he used cool to sell consumer electronics. That's not 'computing' any more than watching TV is 'computing'.
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He used to park in disabled parking bays.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Interesting)
suicide death at foxconn apple factories is LOWER than at foxconn factories for Dell, HP, and others the NYTimes reports.
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Steve Jobs kick my dog!
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Funny)
And when he visited Xerox Parc, he stole a box of raisins.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Funny)
Linux mentioned, CHECK. Claiming King Geek in front of a nation of geeks, CHECK. Apple Fanboi posing as a Geek, priceless.
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Oh you're gonna get it with that comment :)
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Informative)
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4) Go to Omni and purchase a Quantity Discount for up to 30% off. Or a Large Volume Discount for whatever price you happen to negotiate.
https://store.omnigroup.com/main/86705d974e0553dcffffffff/ [omnigroup.com]
Just like you did before.
The Mac isn't a walled garden. If software is suitable for enterprise use, then the software vendors will have a volume licensing option. The Mac App Store is designed to make finding, buying and installing apps easy for consumers. But it's not the only way of supplying Mac software.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Informative)
Note the "lets say OmniGraffle".
That's why I gave you info on Omnigraffle.
Pick an app which is only distributed via the App Store. Say, the Blink SIP soft phone.
It looks like Blink will even give you a pre-configured and branded version if you want to approach them for a volume licence.
http://icanblink.com/inquiries.phtml [icanblink.com]
As I say, the Mac is no more a walled garden than Windows or Linux. Software vendors can supply you with software any way the choose to on any of those platforms. Some obviously choose to only do so via the Mac App Store, because if you're an indie developer it's so much easier. But any app that's got the potential for enterprise use is going to be supplied by the company in a form that is accessible by the enterprise.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Informative)
Lets say I want a phone with a physical keyboard running iOS. I can't have it. On the other hand, I can have a wide variety of phone form factors on Android and even Windows Phone 7. Want a really thin phone with no keyboard? They've got it. Want a phone with a sliding keyboard? They've got it. Want a keyboard just on the face of the phone? They've got it. One size does not fit all.
Lets say I want a cheap computer for web browsing, e-mail and office use. If I get a PC, I can get a laptop for about $330, sure it isn't really high end, but it will do what I want. On the other hand, if I wanted to get the same thing running OS X it would cost me, what? $600 for an iPad which isn't close to a full fledged computer? Or $1,000 for a cheap Macbook?
Or lets say I want a minor customization, putting the window buttons on the left side like most people are used to. With Linux, switching the window buttons are easy, a quick Google search will tell you how to rearrange them. On the other hand, there seems to be no way to do it on a Mac. Lack of customization is what keeps me away from Chrome and also Mac OS.
Yes, Mac OS is nicely designed, but there is simply no customization. Even Windows offers more customization. After all, the operating system is there to stay out of the way, part of it being that I should be able to customize it how I want to, something that OS X doesn't give me.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
No thank you, I'll stick with my nice Android phone with things like that built in standard.
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I have tried apple products, they suck. The reason why linux isn't as pretty and easy to use as os x is because there are not PAID linux devs, not like you have for windows or os x, and there is no unified force behind it. linux is a bunch of neck beards who all have their own idea about how the OS should be. That is why there is a million and one distros. Apple isn't the answer though, they just go the opposite way and tell you what you need and how you need it. They over price it all, and pretend they inv
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously, try one of Apple's products. It's not hard to see why they're so popular.
Of course you can see why they're popular, but it's not price or ignorance that keeps people from owning them, it's that it's never a one-size-fits-all solution.
And for Linux devs - try to make your stuff more like Apple's products.
Why? If you want stuff that's like Apple's products buy Apple's products.
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try replacing your hard drive without 3rd party software or hardware, try replacing your video card without that extra 128K BITS (yes bits) of bios on it, try compiling GCC without downloading their version of it and signing up for a service, try to use your software when they arbitrarily change architectures again .... for the 5th fucking time.
Apple is great for users that have not owned apple products, most of the (normal) people I talk to feel that, yes the apple experience is great, but no they would no
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Then use OSx86.
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I'm not sure GIMP is better than Photoshop. At the very least, Photoshop has a much more organized UI, which I can navigate through much easier.
Best of both worlds would be an "Advanced Mode", where you can change all the settings, but for the average consumers, most settings may be hidden away, and make the whole thing "just work". Unless something goes wrong, or you want to tweak something, you may never even have to see all the settings and variables.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
'more accessible' is just a new speak term for "hide messy reality from user". this is not more accessible, it's LESS. it builds up a fantasy of expectations not inline with reality that blow up later when the user tries to interface with something/someone outside the apple garden. Of course, he blames that item/person for not playing by the rules he was sold when he bought is iThingy, but reality is NOT the apple garden. apple's assumption that correctly designed devices don't require user-configurability doesn't take into account the unrealistic input/expectations it breeds in its users. even the best engineered and objectively marketed equipment just breaks sometimes and an accessible way to service/fix the issue is needed. such garden mentalities can be ok for short term/extremely limited use items that have low expectations associated with them, but things like phones and computers are trending AWAY from such status.
the fallacy of equating an assumed incomprehensible complexity with unneeded complexity is what's killing growth in technology, especially in the consumer space. By all means, offer an easy to use interface for simple functions, but oversimplifying complex operations does nothing for the user when the designer's assumptions about said complexities fail the user. not only is the user left without what he needs, but he has no way of learning how to get it, and anyone he might ask for help is denied access to what they need. this is why apple sells the attitude along with the product.. it pushes the 'blame/pressure' from apple/its users onto everyone else to get into compliance..ie buy an apple. this is good for apple obviously, but bad for technology/society as a whole.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude, the whole job of software is to "hide messy reality from the user", otherwise the user would still be doing everything by hand. We have a fantastic device that can do many millions of things faster than a human can do one. Don't get me wrong, Apple certainly errs on the side of over simplification and preventing power users from configuring what they want. But building in systems that permit users to avoid worrying about external(to them) complexities is nearly the whole point of what we do.
I also disagree with your statement that the "fallacy of equating an assumed incomprehensible complexity with uneeded complexity is what's killing growth in technology". On the other hand, I totally agree with your subsequent statements surrounding what Developers *should do*, however I see no evidence of the drain on growth in the market.
If there is a market (money) need for the power user UI, the market will eventually produce it barring severe ongoing shortage of qualified engineers. When there is a shortage of workers, they will pick to work on either the most exciting, or the most profitable targets.
Power-User UI is what you expect from internal tools. The software industry's infancy was basically *internal tools* packaged and dumped into the market. The fact that power-user UIs are disappearing (are they? -- at least in relative concentration vs simpleton UI) is a symptom of the maturation of the software industry, for maximizing breadth of reach. The unnecessary sharp edges of Power tools are what gets polished and removed as various products improve.
Physical analogy: Circular saws usually have a finger guard around the blade these days. The finger guard does sometimes get in the way of work. Is this a sign that the tool has been dumbed down? Or that the design was polished for market appeal? Internal tools get the job done at the expense of such polish. Published tools in a mature industry have exactly the sharp edges they need for the people they are selling to.
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Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Interesting)
I took the plunge in 2004 and replaced my PC for four years with a Mac.
I mostly use PCs now because I mostly use laptops now, and my current desktop runs Linux (it's just a server these days).
OS-wise?
I prefer Linux for my server goodies (unless I really want it locked-down hard, then it's FreeBSD all the way). I recently put Linux on my laptop (HDD crash, gave me all the excuse I needed to get rid of Windows on it, etc).
Sometimes, I miss using OSX: It gave me a slick-assed UI coupled with a nice and powerful terminal environment. It's efficient as hell. I can get good apps for it (and until recently, OSX or Windows were your only real choices for CG hobby work).
But...
OSX has its disadvantages (file/folder merging, anyone? And yes I know about ditto - it sucks. Also, a dual G5 tower makes an excellent (and literal) room-heater in the winter, but a lousy one in the summer). It has its advantages (e.g. running OSX 10.3 for six years straight without bit-rot or needing a re-install, and still having the latest apps to that time run just as snappy on it).
Linux has its disadvantages (for the love of all that is holy - WTF will it take to get a DECENT .pdf editor!?). It has its advantages (I can modify the unholy shit out of it to my tastes - BTW, I'm installing fluxbox on this thing when I get a few spare hours this week).
Windows has its disadvantages (...do I need to count them all? Really? That's like 3 hours of typing...) It has its advantages (you can get apps for anything in it, and they generally work if you need them to).
Long story short? The OS wars are pretty much over. Your OS is just about as exciting as the engine in your car. Nobody outside of a few hobbyists really give a shit anymore about what's under the hood, as long as it runs.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Informative)
I not only "tried" Apple gear and products, I have and still support them. I probably know a lot more about Linux and about MacOS than you. I guided a professional organization through the transition from MacOS9 to MacOSX and on. I know Apple intimately. I can tell you that what people think Apple is, often isn't the case. Most of it is hype and misplaced perceptions.
When you break a computer down to how it serves the interests and needs of a user, even you have to admit that Apple more or less requires that the user shift their needs and interests to fit within the Apple framework of products and services rather than the other way around. Apple is not particularly adaptable nor is it flexible. And if you disagree with this view, then you already disagree with Apple -- they say the same things themselves. "We tell users what they want" sound familiar?
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
I dunno, how many people wanted voice commands on their phone before the iphone 4s came out?
I think Apple tells people what they want quite successfully.
Its not that these people secretly wanted it but didn't know it - more like they didn't want it until they saw it, and then they wanted it.
Its clever, and it seems to work very well for Apple.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Interesting)
Let me share my experience with OSX and "how great" it is.
Last summer, as part of some volunteer work I was doing, I was tasked with locking down about 100 user laptops. About 60-70 were Windows based, 1 was Linux, the rest were Apple.
The tasks were to set up full disk encryption (or as close as possible with the host OS), some kind of email encryption, set up the mail client, set up a Cisco (or equivalent) vpn client, and make sure the computers were generally up to snuff (updates and whatnot).
The Windows machines took maybe 3-4 hours each, if that. I spent the better part of a day and hashed together a program that automated 90% of the work, including the installation of many of the programs (through AutoIT scripting), which made most of the process hands-off. There were about a bazillion options for automation, forcing updates, scripted certificate installation, etc. We could have used a WSUS server, if we had desired (though we did not). The various OSes (XP, Vista 32/64, 7 32/64) basically worked the same; though there were some "if {os}=" clauses that had to be used, it was mostly for picking the proper executable (32bit Cisco vpn vs 64 bit).
The Linux machine was of course a PITA, since we did not know ahead of time we would be dealing with it.
Then there were the OSX computers. They were a gigantic PITA. How? Let me list the ways:
And there were various other quirks which branded OSX in my mind as "decent, with a decent CLI, but vastly overrated"; but the big issues were that the system really wasnt designed to be administered quickly in batches, and the documentation was very often less than stellar. For all the flak Windows gets for its registry, at least every bit of it is documented, and you can find articles out the wazoo about how to automate X on windows.
People talking about the new wave of OSX boxes on corporate networks are either bad admins, way more clever at this kind of thing than I am, or ignorant reporters. It might be a different story if there were a capability (on both the Windows Server, and the OSX client side) to launch logon scripts, and if those scripts could install printers and map network paths; call me when that happens.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
So what you're saying is that you have experience administering Windows boxes, but not much for other OSes? Excuse me if I can't take your experience as neutral, fact based review of Apple products (or Linux for that matter) if you were unable to find the FileVault encryption options in the Security Preference pane. In = 10.6, that's user home folder encryption, in 10.7+, it's one-click full disk encryption. And the Registry being less arcane than plist files...? And apparently you haven't looked into Automator at all...?
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Interesting)
This is probably a big problem in big IT shops. They hire Windows experts by the truckload at a large discount. They don't need to know much, they just need the right certificates and be able to play politics (ie, don't rock the boat). So they end up with people who know all the right stuff about Windows that they learned in night school, they've been constantly bombarded with MS marketing literatures about the right solutions to use, etc. Ask them to do something with Macs or Linux or BSD and they're completely baffled, this is outside of their realm of comfort (not to mention the looks of horror when someone is using DOS or Windows 3.1 for legacy purposes).
To be fair they do learn a lot of Windows skills and are instantly able to take these skills to the next company they go to and instantly be productive. Learning about Macs does not help their lateral mobility that much.
It happens in management too, we had the only IT people who knew Macs well laid off despite a significant chunk of our company using Macs exclusively.
Of course Apple support is ludicrous as well. Bad hard drive means you literally take the machine to an Apple Store ($TM) and wait for a replacement, and Apple Stores ($TM) are not set up to deal with enterprise users and are more suited to trying to up-sell accessories.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Informative)
You really sound like someone who's supported Windows for years, learning the little details like hashing together a program to automate your workflow.
Yet you don't have any clue about the Mac, and that makes it hard. Somehow, that's OS X's fault.
VPN issues are VPN company issues. Ask them to write the software?
There is full disk encryption. http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4790 [apple.com]
What the hell is launch on startup? Google shows nothing. Launch at login is a user preference that's been around for a decade. It doesn't make the computer slow.
Never had any issues importing certificates across all those versions of OS X.
defaults settings are well documented. http://secrets.blacktree.com/ [blacktree.com]
There's also things like radmind that would probably be much better at doing what you want. But your ignorance led you astray.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Informative)
The built in encryption on OSX is FileVault, and in Lion it does full disk encryption.
The preferences vs registry thing just sounds like Windows was easier for you than OSX because you know Windows. The registry is a the very worst feature of Windows, and I don't know anyone that didn't learn computing on Windows that would dream of praising it.
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Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Insightful)
All of that stuff is included in a modern Linux distro by default. I'm on Fedora and for the Cisco VPN client, all you need is to "yum install vpnc".
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:4, Informative)
OSX machines can be administered via. OSX admins or Unix admins. Trying to admin a Unix, be it Solaris, AIX, Linux or OSX like a Windows machine is genuine a load of suck.
1) OSX versions have a 2 year lifespan. You cannot write your instructions in typical Windows "click here" style.
2) FileVault included does Full disk encryption on OSX. Prior to 10.7 PGP WDE worked fine.
3) The way to script changes in you would click through is using the AppleScript browser and automater. You can read off from there the various changes possible. Other than that, yes you need to use defaults and you can google that stuff.
4) The way you are supposed to do what you were trying to do is with OSX server which offers automatic admin and config.
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Two alternative suggestions for you:
1- Upgrade users to Lion for $29, unless they're already on Lion. Everything you need is then built-in (or already was). Dirt cheap vs. your time. Probably require users to do it first. I assume you're not supporting Windows 95?
2- Hire an admin with OSX skills, as you clearly lack them. Not to worry, there are still plenty of jobs for people who like to hack away at the Windows registry.
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Informative)
OS X 10.5 and later on Intel is official Open-Group-certified UNIX. It's not "built on top of UNIX", it is UNIX.
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Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Interesting)
I actually own some apple hardware. It's really nice stuff but then it costs a lot of money so it should be. What bothers me is that the OS isn't what it could be. It's better than Windows in my opinion but really I remember putting Snow Leopard on my Dell 1545 just for kicks. It ran well on there and everything worked well and I played with it a week and then wiped it and went back to Linux. I had a Powerbook at the time that I used for iMovie and a couple of other Mac applications, I loved the hardware it was really nice but I really didn't like Leopard that much. I can buy nice Intel hardware a lot cheaper for similar equipment without the apple on the case and after I wipe the malware it comes with off and install Linux I'm much happier than I am with OS X. I'm not sure what's up with the interface but it seems sluggish to me....like their is lag in it or something. I still use OS X occasionally as I picked up a 2008 macbook for iMovie but with Openbox getting better I'm thinking of selling it off. I want to like OS X but it's so hard to. Maybe I'm just spoiled.
I actually own some apple hardware. (Score:4, Interesting)
It's really nice stuff but then it costs a lot of money so it should be.
1996 calling, it wants it's mime back. I dare you to configure Dell, HP, and Leveno products so it will have similar specs to a Mac then compare prices. I did precisely that before ordering the MacBook Pro I'm typing this on. Of them the cheapest was a brand I hadn't heard of before, it was $50 cheaper. The Dell, and I tried Alienware which Dell bought out, cost about $200 more. HP's offering cost more too. Because I planned on installing Ubuntu to dual-boot I also checked out compatibility. The one thing that makes it more difficult to install Ubuntu is using EFI, the GUID Partition Table (GPT), and installing Ubuntu on an HFS+ formatted partition. I'll install Lucid Lynx (Ubuntu 10.04) onto the internal HDD, Oops, there another problem I'll install Oneiric Ocelot (Ubuntu 11.10) onto a USB external drive which presents it's own problems.
What bothers me is that the OS isn't what it could be. It's better than Windows in my opinion but really I remember putting Snow Leopard on my Dell 1545 just for kicks.
That's your personal opinion, others love Snow Leopard. My MBP came with Tiger and it was about 4 months after Leopard came out before I upgraded. The only reason I did was because Java 6 would only run on Leopard, at least without a bunch of hacking. And as I was a member of Apple Developer Connection [apple.com] (ADC) Leopard was free. When Snow Leopard came out it took me a couple of months before buying it, heck it only cost $29. But it took a few more months before I actually installed it. Although Lion has been out for a while, released on 20 July 2011, I still have not bought or upgraded to it.
I want to like OS X but it's so hard to.
I do like OSX, what I have a harder tyme with is liking Apple. It makes, er designs, terrific hardware a programs great software. With the exception of the Mac though it only takes others ideas then releases its own products. And even with hardware Apple is falling behind. While consumer Macs have had more than one revision since the summer of 2010 the Mac Pro has not been upgraded. Try looking for a Sandy Bridge Mac Pro and you won't find one. One rumor has it Apple will Kill Mac Pros [macgasm.net] just like they did to the XServe. Since they did they've pushed shops to use Mac Minis for servers, but a Mini can't handle tasks the Pro has no problems with. Of course other rumors have it that Minis with Thunderbolt can have external graphics cards as well as storage attached enabling them to be used instead of Mac Pros. As it is now I'd like to get another MacBook Pro but I don't think I will buy any other Apple product.
Falcon
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The iMac is a desktop with zero upgrade ability.
People say this, and I have to wonder where they get that idea, because it's totally untrue.
You can change out the RAM, HD (x2 in the bigger one), optical drive, CPU, graphics card. The only "fixed" bits are the logic board and the PSU - which you pretty much have to switch with identical parts. You can replace the LCD screen too of course, but again with one of the same size.
It certainly won't be cheap for things like the GPU (MXM cards are much more expensive than their 'normal' equivalents) but it's poss
Re:I actually own some apple hardware. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't say this as a Windows fanboi - I am typing this on my Macbook Air. That doesn't change the fact that I can buy a Windows laptop for around half the price of a Macbook Pro with the same amount of power (if I go MSI or some other brand like that) are about 25% cheaper for a Dell. I frequently sell Core i5, 8GB of RAM laptops for under $1000 *Australian* dollars, which means USD would be even less (because we get massively ripped off on electronics here) and I have a customer's Core i&, 8GB of RAM, 256GB SDD laptop on my desk right now which was less than $1,500.
I desperately wanted to justify a Mac Mini for my home media centre because they look so nice and the media PC is so clearly visible in the lounge room. But once you factor in an optical drive, enough storage to be worthwhile (1TB), the Dell Zino is *massively* cheaper and doesn't look too bad.
Re:I actually own some apple hardware. (Score:5, Funny)
Well I keep trying to call him, but he won't answer.
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I agree. He's not trolling, he's just making a horrible argument.
But it's true, Apple *helped* bring computers out of the nerd dens. Let's travel back 30 years, give or take a few. The Apple II was the first truly mainstream "personal computer". The Mac was the first commercially viable computer that was "friendly".
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You forgot the "Lame" comment at the end ...
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Funny)
I tried Mac. They suck.
We thank you for your informed, reasoned, and thorough commentary.
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Apple products are somewhat ok if you don't test the boundaries or use them too creatively. Otherwise all bets are off.
I haven't found anything I could do in Windows or in Ubuntu I can't do on a Mac. Hell I can install both Windows and Ubuntu, or other Linux distros, on my Mac. I've been doing prep work planning to install Lucid Lynx (Ubuntu 10.04) on my internal HDD and Oneiric Ocelot (11.10) on an external drive. Tomorrow I plan to actually do the installations.
Now tell me what you can do with MS Windows and or Linux you can't do with a Mac. That is what task not what specific application. For an office suite I was using
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I have an iPad 2. I'd swap it for an Android tablet tomorrow if I could. I'm sick of Apple telling me how I can (and can't) use the product that I bought.
Then do it. Why did you buy an iPad? It's no secret that iPads are "closed". This speaks more to your poor judgement in determining your needs before you buy something. How is your poor judgement Apple's fault?
Re:Why Apple is good (Score:5, Insightful)
It does not take great genius to detect an obvious shill.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I think your enterprise argument is flawed. (Score:4, Interesting)
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with all of that, i just have to ask, does your precious apple have a 'command line'? do you even know how to find it, or did they 'cut you off' from your freedom, and your human dignity? i just have to ask you, if you hit ctrl-alt-t on a mac, what happens? do mac users even know there is a command called 'ls'?
Er... OS X has a command line, and its almost as full featured as the ones in Linux and BSD (OS X sitting on top of a modified Unix kernel and all). Back when I pretty much exclusively used Macs I used Quicksilver with a plug in that allowed me to input terminal commands via a quick shortcut (i.e. [cmd]-[space] "ls") It was amazing, and so far there is no alternative to it on any other OS (grr... Windows or Linux needs Quicksilver, Adium, TextMate, and OmniOutliner; the only things I miss ab out OS X was
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Given they've just released the 2nd largest results of any company in history, the "Apple is just circling the drain" comment seems to be monumentally delusional.
Next to that the comment "They all but abandoned their notebooks" is merely ludicrous. (Mac sales grew 20%, mostly notebooks, against a general PC trend which was down 9%.)
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It's spelled "cue". And he's giving the true verifiable facts against your delusions. Given that you are saying what you wished were true rather than what is actually true, it seems you are the fanboy. Though from that post we neither know nor care which particular company it is you're shilling for.
Re:Apple in enterprise is hard (Score:4, Informative)