Some Critics Suggest Apple Boycott Over Chinese Working Conditions 744
Hugh Pickens writes "The Guardian reports that Apple's image is taking a dive after revelations in the NY Times about working conditions in the factories of some of its network of Chinese suppliers and the dreaded word 'boycott' has started to appear in media coverage of Apple's activities. 'Should consumers boycott Apple?' asked a column in the Los Angeles Times as it recounted details of the bad PR fallout amid detailed allegations that workers at Foxconn suffered in conditions that resembled a modern version of bonded labor, working obscenely long shifts in unhealthy conditions with few of the labor rights that workers in the west would take for granted." Read on, below.
Pickens continues: "But Apple has come out fighting, which is no surprise given the remarkable success that the company has seen in recent years with its reputation for 'cool' among hip urban professionals and a generally positive corporate image. In a lengthy email sent to Apple staff, chief executive Tim Cook met the allegations head-on. 'We care about every worker in our worldwide supply chain. Any accident is deeply troubling, and any issue with working conditions is cause for concern,' Cook said. He went on to slam critics of the company. 'Any suggestion that we don't care is patently false and offensive to us ... accusations like these are contrary to our values.' So will we see some kind of movement to boycott Apple products, akin to the campaign several years ago to pressure Nike to improve working conditions in its factories asks Sam Gustin in Time Magazine? "You can either manufacture in comfortable, worker-friendly factories, or you can reinvent the product every year, and make it better and faster and cheaper, which requires factories that seem harsh by American standards," an anonymous current Apple executive told the Times. "And right now, customers care more about a new iPhone than working conditions in China.""
Good luck getting the protestors to support that (Score:5, Insightful)
If the sheer number of Apple devices at any given Occupy protest are any indication, it would seem the professional protestors who usually lead this kind of thing are going to bend over backwards to give Apple a free pass on just about anything. Christ, there were Occupy protestors CRYING the day Steve Jobs died--even as they rallied against our corporate overlords (with no sense of the irony at all). So unless you can sell them on the idea that Tim Cook has somehow corrupted their beloved Apple in the last few months, I would say your chances are pretty much nil.
And this isn't meant as flamebait. Seriously, go to an Occupy protest sometime and just look at the sheer number of Mac's, iPhones, and iPads you'll see. It's fucking creepy. They've been for shit at organizing on any other point, but they've apparently almost all agreed on at least *one* thing.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Interesting)
The NYT article brings to light conditions and tragedies that many people did not know about. It's hard to ignore these images.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
These articles regarding Apple's labour practices have been fairly regular for years, now. It's not that many people did not know about it; it's that many people choose not to care about it.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Insightful)
Combined with this news and Apple's 4Q financial reports, show's Apple in a very bad light. A very profitable company that doesn't care about the conditions of workers.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
Accountability for what your outsourced partner is doing, accountability for the third party you hire, and accountability for their working conditions on the same level with the USAs internal standards.
Boycott? pppffttt... how about real punishment.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Insightful)
You know what will fix this and bring jobs back to the USA?
Nothing. Steve Jobs was right. Those jobs aren't coming back, and not just because of wages. Tim Cook sold Jobs on moving the manufacturing to China for a number of reasons, many which make sense (one huge reason is that America has largely abandoned the kind of job training that makes both good electronics assembly workers and the foremen that oversee them). There's a pretty good podcast [coffeeandmarkets.com] here laying out most of the justifications. It sucks, but it'll likely never change. The change in education, labor laws, and factory investments would be so huge... in the trillions of dollars, on a truly industry-wide and nation-wide scale... that it'll almost certainly never happen.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
" America has largely abandoned the kind of job training that makes both good electronics assembly workers and the foremen that oversee them"
A lot of us said as much when the fools in Washington first uttered the words, "service economy". Services, such as fast food restaurants, are somewhat important to the economy. But, you don't BUILD a freaking economy around something that amounts to nothing more than a support industry.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation: American workers won't work long hours for low pay under dodgy conditions doing monkey work on assembly lines.
Seriously, it doesn't take any special or complex training to be an electronics assembly worker on anything less important than, say, the Space Shuttle's guidance system. It's mindless rote work like any other assembly line job. What they're really dodging are labor laws and unions.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Insightful)
I once heard EXACTLY the same argument for why manufacturing jobs would never leave the U.S., but guess what?
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Interesting)
Tariffs would do this too and are a large part of our US history. Tariffs are sanctioned by the WTO if your trade imbalance is >10%.
So why don't we do it?
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Insightful)
The regulatory regime in this country is simply too overbearing.
It will be hard to complain when they move to Germany,...
The EU is extremely overregulated. The USA doesn't even come CLOSE.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Insightful)
So when (or if) that happens you do something about it. Bring production back home. And of course you milk it for all the PR you can.
The public are fickle, have short memories and are easily distracted by shiny things.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
Those jobs are only coming back to the U.S.A. if you are prepared to pay $3000 for an iPad or an iPhone.
If the jobs were here than they would have to compete for labor, meaning higher wages, meaning more disposable income for people to buy those iPads.
The middle class is the key to a strong economy. When our middle-class was at it's strongest, 1945-1980, the buying power of a dollar was much higher than it is today. By allowing companies to offshore all the middle-class jobs, they're effectively crippling the very market of consumers they're trying to sell shit to. This is why these tech companies are looking to the growing middle-classes in Eastern countries to make up the difference, because even making shit in China is not cheap enough for them to turn the profits they expect here, and we let them bring the shit in for nothing...
We need to either put more protectionist measures in place, such as tariffs, like the EU and Canada does, or we need to be pushing for a global economy where these companies aren't able to take advantage of the weaker currency in production and then turn around and sell the product in the stronger economy and make a fortune. Think about it: these mega-corporations can shop around all over the world to find the cheapest place to produce a material good, but can consumers in the U.S. shop in that cheaper market to buy it? Nope, there's region-locks and all sorts of red tape preventing the consumers from take advantage of this. You can't even physically go to another country and buy a bunch of shit and bring it home without all sorts of hassles when you're coming back into the U.S.; there are strict limits.
The system is totally skewed, and until we reach economic parity with the countries producing these goods, it's only going to get worse. If a company can region-lock it's product, why can't we region-lock the labor required to produce it?
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Informative)
You should listen to the This American Life program Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory [thisamericanlife.org]?
That's the surprising thing about these huge factories. There is no automation. Full of workers, and totally quiet - no machines. Why pay for automation when you can get super cheap labor to put the damn things together by hand?
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Insightful)
And Apple's not alone on this. Dell, HP, Sony, Microsoft ( Xbox360 ) all use Foxconn as well. I'm not being an Apple apologist... I believe that Apple knew full well what it was getting in to and the new plant in Brazil is an effort to distance themselves from Foxconn, but that's not enough. Apple should be taking a stand and stopping this treatment of workers. It's not their fault... that's Foxconn's faul and China's fault, but Apple should use its prowess to make change.
( And FYI All that info about worker dormatories etc isn't new.. The Register has done multiple pieces on the horrible working conditions for years... since 2006 even. )
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, if any company were to take an active stance on the working conditions of its production labor, I really think it'll be Apple. A couple years back when environmentalists picked up the "let's pick on Apple to gain attention" tactic, Apple responded with efforts to make their products greener and promote recycling. Obviously international labor laws aren't as easy to fix but Apple cares enough about its customers' opinions and its image to try.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
"otherwise they'd be complaining about/to every tech company in the country. They just want the ratings that come with putting "Apple" in a story."
Of course there is another, more likely possibility, though I suspect you missed it because your post really sounded just like a thinly veiled "I love Apple and they can do no wrong!" post.
The more likely possibility is that reporters quite often do actually take an interest in human rights issues, and that they're focussing on Apple indeed partly because it's the most prominent target right now, but by hitting the most prominent, and most profitable target you're hitting the firm that has the most clout available to make the required changes, and the most to lose if it doesn't. You open the door for other firms to advertise their more ethical businesses if they take a stand and Apple doesn't, you basically leave Apple an ultimatum - change, or risk being outflanked by any competitors that do.
This doesn't mean it'll work, if all firms decide to hold their ground and none are willing to change then it's of little benefit, but this tactic by reporters has worked well before. Your latter paragraph is evidence enough of that - Greenpeace was very vocal in pointing out Apple's poor track record on pollutants, and despite Steve Jobs initially telling them to f off, he was eventually left with little choice but to start changing things, as other firms started getting positive headlines because they were more green, whilst Apple was seeing continued negative press on the issue. Since then Apple has changed, but also the industry as a whole has upped it's game on the issue, so if it has the potential to work, unless you're one of those people who throws a fit if the press dares mention that Apple could improve in some area, then what's the problem?
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And Apple's not alone on this. Dell, HP, Sony, Microsoft ( Xbox360 ) all use Foxconn as well.
That's true, but boycotts don't have to be fair to work. If a boycott is organized against manufacturer A, it might cause people merely to switch to manufacturer B, and B might be just as bad. However that wouldn't reduce the pressure felt by A, and A could be moved to improve their workers' conditions because of that.
Once that's been successful the boycott could be switched to manufacturer B.
And boycotts can
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Interesting)
Why this obsession about worker dormitories? They're considered quite normal in developing countries because they're a solution to the chicken-and-egg problem of housing vs. jobs. How do you attract people to jobs at a new factory if there's inadequate housing nearby? How do you encourage builders to create housing nearby if there are no jobs?
It also provides a means for a company to insulate their workers from rapid housing price inflation as the area surrounding the factory becomes more developed. You have to realize that unlike developed countries, most people taking a job at the factory do not have a financial nest egg or credit history with which to buy or rent housing. The dormitories are basically guaranteed fixed-price housing for such workers. When the government does it, it's called low-income housing; but when a company does it it's bad?
And there's also differences in population density between Asia and Western Europe, and especially the U.S. and Canada. Each family at a new factory having their own tract home with a garage, white picket fence, and 2.2 kids is simply unrealistic in most Asian countries. At best, on average everyone is going to own a block unit in a high rise apartment.
Is it because Western countries don't have them? The concept seems to recur frequently in developing economies [wikipedia.org]. It goes through several give-and-take cycles as management vs. labor struggle with each other, until eventually the working class develops enough of a financial base and negotiating power not to need them anymore. While the pendulum is on management's side right now, swinging it back is something which has to happen internally. If foreign countries apply pressure and get it changed, it's never going to feel genuine. Chinese management is going to feel that it happened because outsiders forced them to make it happen, not because it came about naturally as a consequence of poor labor conditions. So they'll always be striving to change it back behind the scenes, instead of accepting that that's the way it's gotta be.
Developing an economy is not like jumping quantum states. You can't take a third world economy and instantaneously convert it into a developed first world economy. There's a long, meandering path you have to take as the economy gradually builds up, and worker dorms are just a milestone along that journey. It's a step up from shanty towns.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is Apple being singled out, anyway? Is the implication that Apple is worse than EVERY OTHER electronics-manufacturing company? I can't remember the last time I bought something electronic NOT made in China (my old Fujitsu laptop was made in Japan... can't think of anything else)
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
They're singled out because they're the most visible. That's the price you pay for being at the head of the pack. If they don't like it - maybe they should do something about the factory conditions.
"Everybody else is doing it" wasn't a valid defense when you were 7, and it's not a valid defense when you're running a giant corporation.
Re: (Score:3)
"Everybody else is doing it" wasn't a valid defense when you were 7, and it's not a valid defense when you're running a giant corporation.
I fail to see a good reason to boycott the most visible company for shoddy labor practices while ignoring others. My point wasn't "don't boycott Apple, everybody else is
Re: (Score:3)
It's called "making an example out of someone". Nothing hypocritical about it. Punishing all the guilty parties is not practical, as you just said, so we just punish the most prominent one. Often, that's enough to scare the others into changing their behavior.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
Take a good look at this.. this is how was here in the late 1800s and early 1900s. And that is what all the political class wants to go back too.
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Honestly? Toys "R" Us [wikipedia.org].
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Interesting)
Your flame bait rant aside....Just read the comments from Apple executives. They're enough to make you smash Apple products you own.
Agreed. It's one thing to make your products in factories operating under those conditions, but the apple exutive seemed to be so proud of the fact that they have near-slaves building their products when he described the condition under which they work. I can't even imagine what he was thinking when he described all that the way he did. A normal person holds back when talking about something they know other people probably wouldn't approve of, especially when it's a major corporation with a public image to uphold. He seemed oblivious to the fact that people might not approve. I couldn't decide if he was clueless or a sociopath.
Re: (Score:3)
In my view, the real question should not be "should we boycott iPhones" but "which smartphone do we boycott". There is no reason Apple should be the only smarphone manufacturer under inspection, and I haven't read anywhere a comparison.
And in case they're all bad, you will never get enough people to boycott all Smartphones. But compare the manufacturers: RIM, HTC, Apple, Samsung, SONY, Nokia and you can find the worst offender. Then, you can put pressure on the worst offender.
That way, you can raise the man
Re: (Score:3)
In my view, the real question should not be "should we boycott iPhones" but "which smartphone do we boycott". There is no reason Apple should be the only smarphone manufacturer under inspection, and I haven't read anywhere a comparison.
And in case they're all bad, you will never get enough people to boycott all Smartphones. But compare the manufacturers: RIM, HTC, Apple, Samsung, SONY, Nokia and you can find the worst offender. Then, you can put pressure on the worst offender.
That way, you can raise the manufacturing conditions by the bottom, which makes sense. But I somehow doubt Apple is one of the worst offender. I may be wrong.
No, the way to raise manufacturing conditions is to put pressure on the most VISIBLE company. That puts pressure on everyone. Apple is the most visible, so start with them and when they reform, the others will have to follow in order to compete.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Informative)
If the sheer number of Apple devices at any given Occupy protest are any indication, it would seem the professional protestors who usually lead this kind of thing are going to bend over backwards to give Apple a free pass on just about anything. Christ, there were Occupy protestors CRYING the day Steve Jobs died--even as they rallied against our corporate overlords (with no sense of the irony at all). So unless you can sell them on the idea that Tim Cook has somehow corrupted their beloved Apple in the last few months, I would say your chances are pretty much nil.
And this isn't meant as flamebait. Seriously, go to an Occupy protest sometime and just look at the sheer number of Mac's, iPhones, and iPads you'll see. It's fucking creepy. They've been for shit at organizing on any other point, but they've apparently almost all agreed on at least *one* thing.
I am surprised that the Apple community does not go after Apple about wages like other did about the Nike plants outside the USA. Some recent article about Steve Jobs quoted an Apple executive saying paying US wages in mainland China (instead of $17/day) would only increase the price of an iPad by $70.
Wrong answer... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some recent article about Steve Jobs quoted an Apple executive saying paying US wages in mainland China (instead of $17/day) would only increase the price of an iPad by $70.
And if you were going to pay US wages you could always, I don't know, build the damn thing in America?
I'm not exactly a Buy American nazi, but if the flagship products of greenwashing high-end manufacturers can't be built here, then what can?
Re:Wrong answer... (Score:5, Informative)
Some recent article about Steve Jobs quoted an Apple executive saying paying US wages in mainland China (instead of $17/day) would only increase the price of an iPad by $70.
And if you were going to pay US wages you could always, I don't know, build the damn thing in America?
I'm not exactly a Buy American nazi, but if the flagship products of greenwashing high-end manufacturers can't be built here, then what can?
Maybe not. The Chinese allow business to setup differently than we do here in America:
See this recent NYT article. [nytimes.com]
Re:Wrong answer... (Score:4, Insightful)
Some recent article about Steve Jobs quoted an Apple executive saying paying US wages in mainland China (instead of $17/day) would only increase the price of an iPad by $70.
And if you were going to pay US wages you could always, I don't know, build the damn thing in America?
I'm not exactly a Buy American nazi, but if the flagship products of greenwashing high-end manufacturers can't be built here, then what can?
Maybe not. The Chinese allow business to setup differently than we do here in America: See this recent NYT article. [nytimes.com]
If you're just talking about assembly, $65/phone additional cost is probably about right at minimum wage. But don't forget that the great majority of the components are sourced from vendors who make them at factories with similar conditions. If you build every last piece here in the states, you're talking quite a bit more.
And that's after the sunk costs of getting the factories going. If you amortize the cost of those factories even over several years, you're probably adding a cost greater than that of the labor. Long story short, a fully US-made phone will cost more. How many people would be willing to pay $1500 or more for a "fair trade" device?
And don't forget, there are a lot of materials that are sourced from far off locations where work conditions are not great, to say the least. If you're using a cell phone--any phone, not just an iPhone--you've helped fund a civil war and sex-slavery in the Congo. And it's not just phones; the materials that are most common there are used in computers, DVD players, TVs...
No you cannot (Score:5, Informative)
The article even mentioned Obama personally asking Steve Jobs what it would take to get manufacturing back to US, and the answer was it was no longer possible.
--Coder
Re:No you cannot (Score:5, Interesting)
scalability of production is exactly about wages. they just don't want to admit that. why the supply lines are in china? because all the fucking parts are made around there - and why they're made there? well doh, cheaper wages, cheaper real estate and shorter lines to the factory where they're assembled into a product. it's not like the final assembly is that much of the actual work that goes in to a typical apple product.
because you'd need to pay a shitload of cash for people to work as if they were on a gig on an oil drilling platform whilst really just folding boxes for the xmas season..
and the answer for how to get the jobs back to america would be to work smarter, not harder. the same way somehow germans manage to make cars consistently year after year and bring in a buck.
Take a look from the other side (Score:5, Insightful)
a) Start building a new factory in USA paying for everything UP FRONT. You'll be lucky if you get planning permissions & foundations for the factory done in 2 years, never mind complete tooling and the people to run it. Besides shipping times for components that are already being made in china are 35 days. So if you find out that chip X needs to be changed to chip Y because of some issue, you'll have to wait for 35 days to get a shipment of chip Y. Shipping components by plane costs 10x more and is unfeasible.
b) Contract it out to Foxconn. They have the factory and the people to run it RIGHT NOW. It's tried. It's tested. It works. If your phone is successful, they'll get more factory space and people on manufacturing it in a matter of days or weeks, not months. Components are shipped by train or truck over a matter of hours or days. You don't have to pay them much until manufacturing starts.
What would you do if you were Steve Jobs?
I'm all for getting as much of manufacturing as possible done by robots. I haven't worked in a car factory, but I imagine robots are LESS flexible than people, so if you want to do a new model 6 months later, you'd find it very hard to reconfigure the factory to produce it. I believe having a robotic factory FLEXIBLE is possible, but right now its probably hard and expensive. And even then for electronic devices, unless all of your suppliers are in USA, it is not going to happen.
--Coder
Re:Take a look from the other side (Score:4, Insightful)
Answer B is the only answer for ANY business in a Capitalist system. Maximize profits. The only reason to do anything else is if the company decides that doing something else will increase profits more than continuing down the current path. So any company like Apple will only decide to improve worker conditions or pay more wages to the workers if enough bad publicity or consumer pressure is put on them that it is likely to decrease sales. A Corporation ONLY does the moral thing if its forced to. Any other decision is bad for business.
Capitalism and the current Corporate system is in no way moral if its going to be efficient. All decisions are based on improving profits.Any company that acts morally when not forced to is doing it wrong and opens itself up to being beaten by its competitors who don't make the same mistake.
I am not saying there is a better way, but I do wish people would stop talking in terms of Corporations as if they care about their customers. They only care insofar as it affects their profits.
Re:Take a look from the other side (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep. That's precisely why it's the job of governments to make such arrangements as to make outsourcing (which devastates their own labor workforce, and lowers the standard of living) non-profitable.
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That is what makes China so attractive.
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Just to play Devil's Advocate here, while you may be willing to pay $70 more does that mean everyone else will? A standard of living is effectively defined as being how much money you make versus how much of that money you have to spend to acquire goods. To pay more for electronics is tantamount to a decrease in the standard of living for westerners, and no one is going to be in favor of giving up their standard of living.
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Re: (Score:3)
Here's a hint: labor costs are very low compared to capital costs. Capital costs in America are LESS than in China, but that gap is rapidly diminishing. But regulatory costs are much, MUCH higher in the US. This is why manufacturing has been fleeing America.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Informative)
The Economist ran an article about China's balance of trade last week which included a breakdown of the value (price) of an iPad. Just over 50% was costs, the rest was profit, of which 30% to Apple (the rest to others in the supply chain). Chinese labour costs were minimal at 2%. They could perhaps reduce their profits to redistribute wealth from their execs/shareholders to the workers.
http://www.economist.com/node/21543174 [economist.com]
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Interesting)
The Economist ran an article about China's balance of trade last week which included a breakdown of the value (price) of an iPad. Just over 50% was costs, the rest was profit, of which 30% to Apple (the rest to others in the supply chain). Chinese labour costs were minimal at 2%. They could perhaps reduce their profits to redistribute wealth from their execs/shareholders to the workers.
http://www.economist.com/node/21543174 [economist.com]
That is more what I was thinking, instead of adding to the price. If those #Occupy people practiced what they preached, Apple stores would be under siege instead of being mobbed by weeping customers at the loss of Dear Leader.
Re: (Score:3)
Please mod parent up, this is the most relevant information: Chinese manufacturing represents 2% of the cost of an Ipad. i.e 10$ for the $500 Ipad, whereas Apple profits represent 30% !
It would be fairly trivial for Apple to improve working conditions in China.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
"And this isn't meant as flamebait. "
And yet it is.
Apple isn't getting a free pass, a lot of people are just not very well informed about the matter. Now that Apple's manufacturing practices are becoming better known, there is a growing back lash. Will it last? Maybe, maybe not. The truth is that the electronic devices like smart phones, computers and tablets are a part of everyday life in the US for a very large part of the population. Convincing people that they need to pay more for these devices isn't an easy cause to champion.
I am not even sure what the point of your comment was outside of a thinly veiled stab at a political movement that you obviously disagree with. Should everyone give a free pass to Apple just because you produced an anecdote that occupy protesters use too many apple devices?
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Interesting)
I am not even sure what the point of your comment was outside of a thinly veiled stab at a political movement that you obviously disagree with.
Quite the contrary. I strongly support the idea of fighting corporatocracy. But if the movement is ever going to achieve anything it's going to have to be much more CONSISTENT and MAINSTREAM. Consistent means that selected corps like Apple and Democratic politicians don't get free passes. Mainstream means that the movement has to be more than just the standard hippie and drum-circle crowd (and no hippies guarding the gates with a "We don't want to let in any poseurs who don't even own a hemp shirt" attitude).
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I am not even sure what the point of your comment was outside of a thinly veiled stab at a political movement that you obviously disagree with.
Quite the contrary. I strongly support the idea of fighting corporatocracy. But if the movement is ever going to achieve anything it's going to have to be much more CONSISTENT and MAINSTREAM.
So, have you shown up to add mainstream credibility?
Consistent means that selected corps like Apple and Democratic politicians don't get free passes.
I kinda despise Apple's attitude, but what phone is not made in China under dubious conditions? I bought a cheap (Android) phone, and plan on not replacing it for as long as possible. Same with my computers, I keep them as long as possible so as to not support the manufacturing conditions and electronic waste that the replacement cycle encourages.
Also, seems to me the Occupy movement has decidedly not taken the side of the Democrats. You sure you're not
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:4, Informative)
Except it's really China's manufacturing practices. Foxconn makes parts and subsystems (as well as finished goods) for thousands of companies. Calls to boycotting Apple, in that context, are absurd, and in some ways suggest and even less informed (by way of thinking you know something now, but only knowing part of the story) position.
It's not absurd at all. Apple is, by far, the most visible customer of Foxconn and therefore the best place to start pressuring them. Boycotting Foxconn directly is impractical because no one knows which products have Foxconn parts and/or assemblies and Foxconn isn't a household word. Apple on the other hand, is a household word and everyone would understand what is involved in an Apple boycott.
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I used to think that people wanted American products without American price tags. Apple has convinced me that the problem is a lot more difficult to define. People will pay outrageous prices for certain things, but everything else has to be dirt cheap.
Just searching for "apple margin iphone" shows that they are taking maybe 35%, down from 60% earlier. I find it hard to believe that hiring US workers would bring it down considerably. The design and development cost wouldn't change, just the profit margin
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What's idiotic about this is that every tech company gets its products made by the same factories. Why are they proposing boycotting apple, not boycotting all tech companies?
Oh, that's right, because boycotting all tech companies would be impossible to make happen, and apple are an easy scapegoat.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Informative)
You didn't? I'm shocked.
If you had, you would have realised that the other tech companies often pay these manufacturers more money to be spent on improving work conditions, whereas Apple chooses to squeeze them for every dirty brown penny, which inevitably leads to cuts in worker pay and conditions.
If you'd read the article you would also know that whilst Apple has a very pretty code of conduct for their suppliers, it is common for them to simply ignore infractions of that code of conduct, with fewer than 15 suppliers terminated for non-compliance since 2007, even though there are scores of the most serious breaches of that code of conduct recorded every year.
Apple does a lot of talking about worker safety, but they don't do a whole lot of walking.
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Uhh, what you just described is exactly a scape goat – targeting the people who are the easiest target and most likely to change.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah so you state that people are not totally consitent in their behavior. While they have accepted that corporations are not working in the public interest (at least their motivation is not the public interest, but their own pockets), they are still bound by their desires and wishes and they live out their projections. This is definitely true. but it is true for all of us. Some people even do not accept simple facts, like we have an energy consuption and a resource consumption problem. And we have to change our way or it will become problematic to have such thing as our present society.
The real thing is, we have to change (not the others, if we wait for them, they will wait for us). Meaning I have to change how I live. And you should change how you live. And doing these changes are hard. And yes we should thin twice buying anything from Apple again as long they have that production agenda and they have their locked plattforms. However, it might be complicated, because Samsung, HTC and others manufacture their devices i nthe same or similar shops.
The best thing to do, do not buy a new phone unless the old is broken. And if possible, replace the battery if you can instead of throwing the thing away.
The good thing about that occupy movement (as far as I can see it from over here), they might be open to arguments. Therefor, they might understand the arguments againts Apple.
Re:Good luck getting the protestors to support tha (Score:5, Insightful)
Tim Cook met the allegations head-on:
'Any suggestion that we don't care is patently false and offensive to us ... accusations like these are contrary to our values.'
There you have it, "we care because we say we care, and therefore those workers are obviously cared for." Wow, Tim, way to keep the reality distortion field alive!
Re: (Score:3)
Although broad and rather amorphous, the major focus(or foci) of 'occupy' seems to have been situations where the non-plutocrat Americans have been stuck playing a rigged game. The immediate flashpoints tend to be areas where it is nakedly obvious that a game of "heads I win, tails you lose" is
Re: (Score:3)
Professional protesters? You mean I can get paid for protesting?
But you're right; Occupy isn't about working conditions in China, it's a protest against a corporate culture of greed and double standards. There's no reason at all to think they'll protest Apple, even if they were all using androids instead of iPhones.
A long list of reasons (Score:4, Insightful)
To those who have been watching Apple for years, this is just a long list of transgressions that make it obvious to avoid Apple.
- Walled gardens, vendor lock in
- Taking down applications from the App Store and including versions in iOS
- Spurious litigation and anti-competitive lawsuits in Germany and Australia
- CarrierIQ, GPS tracking privacy gaffes
- Planned failure just after warranty period (ever since the original pod)
When you think of products that are so anti consumer (not necessarily anti-usability), Apple comes to mind. As for many here, it's just business as usual as I will never buy an Apple product (especially after the first pod) anyway.
Re:A long list of reasons (Score:5, Informative)
Walled Gardens. This keeps getting touted as a negative. Are you fucking kidding? I LOVE Apple's walled garden!
I'm a Flash developer fed up with Chinese sites tearing our games off our site and hosting them for free.
Where else can I go to make a game by myself, sell it, and not have a cracked version appear on pirate bay shortly after?
Re:A long list of reasons (Score:4, Insightful)
I think half of you points are invalid. The planned failure is a mere rumor, I would think. Is there any proof for that? From my experience, Apple hardware has about the same failure rate as other manufacturers. We have dozens of Apple devices in use, besides dozens of other manufacturer's laptops, workstations, servers and assorted hardware. iMac, MBP, iPod, iPhone, iPad... My work laptop is a MBP from late 2008. It is now 3.5 years old, has traveled with me for thousands of miles, seen every day use (as in 8hrs / day). And apart from the battery being replaced after three years, the thing is happily working and very, very sturdy. The same goes for our other Apple laptops. The iPod Touch (2nd gen) are also now quite old and are still in use for coding and teaching.
And again, Apple should not be singled out when it comes to Carrier IQ and the GPS story. The same problems persist(ed?) on numerous other smartphones as well. The GPS flaw was fixed very quickly and the Carrier IQ version that once came with iOS was not sending keystrokes and similar stuff, as seemed to happen on other platforms. Since iOS 5 this piece of the software has been removed anyway. I think it is a good thing that the community takes a close look at Apple's releases, and that flaws like this get mentioned. The downside is of course that fixes might take some time to get incorporated, if we are unlucky. Compared to pure Open Source systems, I cannot easily patch my iPhone (although I heard some fixes make it into Cydia quite quickly).
The walled garden argument is a weak one. Apple's goal was to make the software platform of iOS a rather secure one, and their solution is the iOS developer program. This system is a system of trust, and it means that software developed for iOS comes from a trusted source (you, the developer). I think this is a good idea. To fund this system, one pays 79 EUR per year, and if you do so, you can use the whole toolchain of Apple's development framework to do whatever you like on your iPhone. If you don't want to do that, it's fine. You can wait for the latest Jailbreak to be released. The frameworks and APIs are well documented and in that sense quite open (yes, many things are not free as in speech, but many other things on iOS are).
Re:A long list of reasons (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice troll.You need to define "obvious". Because to me, it is obvious that Apple makes really good devices that work the way most people like.
Planned failure is a joke of an accusation. I have a 1999 G4 that still works pretty well and has had zero defective parts. I have a 2nd and 3rd generation iPod that are on their original batteries. I've got a 2006 Intel Macbook (the one you are supposedly supposed to avoid as a first-gen product) and a 2006 Intel iMac, both work with very few problems (DVD doesn't work on the Macbook). I have a first gen iPhone that still works. I think there's plenty of data showing that Apple quality in the long run is industry-leading.
They dropped CarrierIQ with iOS5, which is more than most competitors can say.
"Vendor" lock-in. That is an imaginary Apple problem. Vendor is right there in your accusation. Vendor. As in not Apple. Isn't that what vendor means? You realize the iPhone is available on 3 out of the 4 major carriers in the US? How is that locked-in to anything? How are two-year contracts for subsidized phone prices any different than HTC and Samsung on any network?
Please. There are plenty of reasons to not like a product, but your short list is pretty lame. Walled garden is your only valid point, and that's only valid to the minority of geeks who don't understand the success of the walled-garden approach.
Hungary (Score:3)
My phone says it was made in Hungary but I imagine it was only assembled there and the components were made in China. The battery was made in China. Unfortunate but an improvement over a completely Chinese manufactured device.
Re:A long list of reasons (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess the correct reasoning is: Apple should not be singled out. The whole IT hardware industry is producing in low wage countries like China, Thailand, Indonesia for mostly abysmally low wages. As is the clothes industry, which in parts is even worse. And we all are at fault and should be changing our behaviour. This is a fundamental issue that runs deep in our societies. However, I think things will change. Wages in China are continuing to rise, the RMB will get stronger, and workforces will shift to other countries. This will continue as well with other countries. It might take a while. All the while we should ponder where this leaves us, in Europe and the US. Wealth will be redistributed from this part of the world, more to the east, and possibly south. Maybe not at the corporate level, but rather at the level of individual people. Our wages here in Europe are (at least in some parts) not even outgrowing inflation. Anyway: there is definitely need for a more "fair" and equal approach to manufacturing of IT goods.
It would be a good start (Score:5, Interesting)
Next, boycott anyone who can't guarantee their workers receive a decent standard of living...
Re:It would be a good start (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. Because even though we know Apple's workers conditions are shit, we have no idea how other phone manufacturers fare. Like with all other tech in the mainstream press, if it's not Apple, it just isn't a story.
Re:It would be a good start (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, we have a very good idea, in the exact same factories covered in the articles, are Dell production lines, and Nokia production lines... We know exactly what the conditions are like, because they all use the exact same giant factories. Which just makes a call to boycot apple alone retarded.
Re:It would be a good start (Score:5, Informative)
If not to buy Apple, what’s the substitute – Samsung? Don’t you know that Samsung’s products are from its OEM factory in Tianjin? Samsung workers’ income and benefits are even worse than those at Foxconn. If not to buy iPad – (do you think) I will buy Android Pad? Have you ever been to the OEM factories for Lenovo and ASUS? Quanta, Compaq factories of other companies are all worse than those for Apple. Not to buy iPod – (do you think) I will buy Aigo, Meizu? Do you know that Aigo’s Shenzhen factory will not pay their workers until the 19th of the second month? If you were to quit, fine, I’m sorry, your salary will be withdrawn. Foxconn never dares to do such things. First, their profit margin is higher than peers as they manufacture for Apple. Second, at least those foreign devils will regularly audit factories. Domestic brands will never care if workers live or die. I am not speaking for Foxconn. I am just speaking as an insider of this industry, and telling you some disturbing truth. — Anonymous.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/25/chinese-readers-on-the-ieconomy/ [nytimes.com]
Relative to other businesses operating in China? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow. Poor working conditions in a Chinese factory? I'd never have guessed.
The question is, how does this compare to other factories in China? Better or worse? Because if the working conditions at Apple's Chinese partners are on par with or better than the conditions at other Chinese factories, then we had better boycott *all* Chinese-produced products and not just those shiny Apple toys.
Yay! Linux is free... but it still runs on hardware produced in a Chinese factory.
Re:Relative to other businesses operating in China (Score:5, Insightful)
"All these other plants are horrible as well so we should just accept the perhaps slightly less horribleness of Apple's plant conditions."
Nope. If true (and it very well could be), that means the problem is bigger, which means we need to fight harder to solve it, not just roll over.
Re: (Score:3)
But the larger problem is that, for many of the workers, the option is keep the job at the factory, or go back to dirt farming.
The factory is actually the better option. The problem here is that poverty in China is massive.
Like it or not these plants represent opportunity for those working there. Now, it is debatable that the plants should give the workers more opportunity and less work, but their options if they leave the plant are likely worse.
Re:Relative to other businesses operating in China (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
From what I hear from people that know better: If you ever experienced American working conditions, you would never find Foxconn working conditions acceptable or even humane. However, if you have never left China, Foxconn may be the best chance at avoiding starvation. Other factories are far worse. In fact, the only reason we hear from Foxconn issues is because of its link to Apple. If we actually cared, we would be hearing about Aigo’s Shenzhen factory, or Samsung's OEM factory in Tianjin, that pays
Boycott Foxconn? (Score:5, Insightful)
Want to boycott horrific working conditions? Stop buying everything. Even Made in America products have parts or raw materials from overseas sweatshops. Electricity in the United States is typically powered by coal, which routinely ignores safety regulations.
The problem isn't Apple. The problem is lax governmental regulation that allows this to happen. Want to stop Apple from using sweatshops? Want to stop Google and Facebook from tracking your every move? Make it illegal, and enforce the damned law.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Want to stop bad labor conditions in China? Have China switch to a capitalist economy so workers have more options and can shop around.
Want to stop bad labor conditions in the US? Don't work at a job that you feel is unsafe. No one is putting a gun to the back of your head saying you MUST work in coal mining. Coal mining is known to be unsafe and if they feel unsafe then simply quit their job.
While China does have plenty of human rights abuses
Boycott? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, I don't understand why boycott just apple on this. Shouldn't we boycott ALL chinese manufactured electronics? A broader movement maybe?
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Boycott? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have exactly one Apple device: an iPod touch that was given to me. I'm not fan boy, but even I think this boycott makes no sense.
However, it's pretty clear that if they were to pick one company to target, it would almost HAVE to be Apple. They have the largest "mindshare" at the moment and, combined with their spectacular profit margins and sales, can most likely effect change in the factories' working conditions
I'm no global economist, but I think Apple might be able to use this to their competitive advantage. Just insist that Foxconn raise all worker wages for EVERY product they manufacture. Apple will take a hit on each product's profit margin (and still be massively profitable), but competitors, who are operating on thinner margins, won't be able to easily absorb the price increase.
People would be boycotting the wrong thing (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is the companies are attracted to the WalMart prices for labor... or more precisely, "manufacturing services." The companies pay for results and get them. It doesn't matter that they murder kittens in those facilities does it?
The boycott, if any, should be against China... more specifically, Chinese manufacturing. This is precisely how they can cost so little. If they were to raise their standards, they would be more expensive and suddenly less attractive. And the only real way around this is to call for government support and sanctions.
The US government is well aware of the conditions in China. They still have favored nation status where trading is concerned. Everyone wants their WalMart prices badly enough to look away when faced with violations of human rights and simply bad and unhealthy working conditions.
These cost savings enjoyed by Apple doesn't seem to translate well into lower prices though...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The root problem is China is a communist state with a restrictive market that prevents people from "shopping around" and getting the best prices possible for their labor.
The west has boycotted North Korea for several years and because of that human rights violations are nearly non-existent, North Korea now has a thriving economy and freely elected leaders... Oh wait... Because of North Korea's isolation they've descended even deeper into leader worship, further behind
Let's be clear about this (Score:3, Informative)
The Chinese sweatshop Apple employs for the iEverythings is Foxconn. Other stuff Foxconn works on/componies Foxconn works for:
If you're not buying from a company that uses Foxconn, you're not buying tech.
NY Times FUD (Score:5, Informative)
What's the cheapest Apple product? (Score:5, Funny)
I need to know what the cheapest Apple product is, please? The reason is, I'm pretty penniless right now so boycotting e.g. a MacBook would be an empty gesture as I can't afford one anyway. However if I can refuse to buy something that I could afford e.g. an iPod Shuffle or an iPhone dock or something then I'm right behind you, sisters.
Perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
A Chinese commenter to the NYT site said that if people had known the lives of these people prior to Foxconn, they would come to the opposite condition and call Apple philanthropists.
A better question. (Score:4, Insightful)
How long before people American's can't afford the product at "Made in China" prices? If nobody has a job. the boycott will come to Apple. Like it or not.
"Everyone is doing it" (Score:3, Insightful)
I note that few of the Apple fanbois have chosen to defend Apple here. Rather they just bleat that 'everyone does it', as though that's ever been much of a justification for appalling behaviour.
How are developing countries supposed to catch up? (Score:5, Insightful)
Western countries, and particularly the UK during the first heady rush of the Industrial Age, had working practices that would horrify the most suicidal Foxconn worker while they moved from a rural to an industrial economy. The USA actually practiced slavery during this period of their development. This is nothing new and while it is horrible, it's an essential part of the development of an economy.
The only thing a developing country can do to lure investment from the more developed economies is sell cheap labour. Luckily, there is a progression from cheap labour to educated workforce that means it's usually only a single generation that has to work in conditions like this. Korea is the best most recent example, where the younger generation are firmly building a knowledge economy on the back of the education that their parent's factory work paid for. [citation coming if I can be bothered digging it out]
You can see a pattern of modern manufacturers chasing cheap labour moving around the globe, building factories and industrial knowledge and infrastructure, then moving on as the local workforce becomes more knowledgeable and expensive. It does leave behind a country that is industrialised and capable of building a manufacturing base that doesn't rely on cheap labour and has better working conditions.
If we insisted that all labour in developing countries was paid the same wage as the average US or European worker, and had similar working conditions, healthcare, life expectancy, educational prospects, and so on, then no developing country could afford to develop. We would be stuck with a developed world that had all the money and an undeveloped world that could never compete or take part in the global economy, wedged forever in a poverty trap that they couldn't get out of.
So yes, bizarrely, it's a good thing that Chinese workers are working under horrific working conditions, just like our great-great-grandparents were, so that they can bring up kids like us who won't have to.
Re: (Score:3)
There are a couple of hole in your nice, pat theory. First, those western countries reformed their work environments from within, because at the time manufacturing was mainly a local or region endeavor. In the US, in the 30's, labor finally organized to begin to reform working environments *with the support of the government*. In essence, it was a free and fairly democratic society that provided the means for the worker to stand up and demand rights.
Manufacturers are not chasing cheap labor, they are in
I think most posters here are missing the point... (Score:5, Insightful)
just my thoughts on the situation - Vlad
Too simple (Score:4, Insightful)
Like most protest movements, anti-Apple activism is likely unproductive and too focused.
HP, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle... do you really think all the other tech companies are innocent in such matters? Given that the problem extends beyond the tech sector -- are you willing to boycott your refrigerator, or your car, or your shirt? Picking on Apple is targeting an easy mark, one that probably has more to do with disliking Apple's image than it does with any real desire to help people.
I don't own or buy Apple products for a lot of reasons. Their use of asian semi-slave factories will not be solved by a boycott, simply because most people don't give a rat's rump. Consumers want their cheap toys, and the "don't give a shitters" outnumber indignant Slashdotters by hundreds of thousands to one.
If you feel that boycotting Apple is some sort of stand against naughtiness, knock yourself out. Delude yourself that buying an Android phone or a Samsung computer makes you holier the Jobs' army..
However, if you want to make a difference, get involved in the political process, as people did with SOPA/PIPA. Make a stink on the broader issue of companies selling product created by near-slave labor in dangerous facilities.Anything less is playing at activism, as if it were a shiney toy, puffing your ego because "I'm doign something" that costs you little and helps the problem even less.
Think different, Apple (Score:3)
Wow, you Apple fanatics sure know how to circle the wagons!
The "But every other tech company does it!" defense doesn't resonate particularly well coming from a company whose corporate slogan tells us to "Think different".
If Apple doesn't want to be relegated to "just another tech gadget company" status, perhaps they should seize this opportunity to take the lead in reforming the tech manufacturing industry.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:They all do it. why just apple? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:They all do it. why just apple? (Score:5, Interesting)
I won't whitewash this "American slave labor", but I wonder if the prison laborers are subjected to very long work days (6 days, 60 hours), toxic chemicals, and other safety risks that would not fly elsewhere in America? Are the prisoners doing this work typically 12 and 13yr old girls?
If you're in prison, you didn't just wake up there one day. You got there for a reason. As a felon, you lose rights (voting, guns, etc). They are paid a very meager wage according to your article, but I'm just saying that even on balance, the Chinese workers probably STILL have it worse.
Re: (Score:3)
If you're in prison, you didn't just wake up there one day. You got there for a reason. As a felon, you lose rights (voting, guns, etc). They are paid a very meager wage according to your article, but I'm just saying that even on balance, the Chinese workers probably STILL have it worse.
So because they're criminals, it's okay to treat them like slaves?
Man, we're a bunch of idiots. Why deport all of those illegal immigrants when we can just arrest 'em and have 'em work real cheap!
Not profitable enough? Better write up some harsher penalties to increase the labor pool. After all, if SpudCo Prison Management doesn't turn 10% growth this quarter, I might not get that campaign contribution!
Yeeeeeeeee-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW *fires six shooter in the air*
Re:They all do it. why just apple? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're being obtusely hyperbolic.
1. All the manufacturers don't take advantage of this. And most of them aren't as bad as Apple.
2. This hasn't been going on for hundreds of years; the world hasn't had a global economic environment for hundreds of years. It's been going on for a few decades.
3. Improving conditions in manufacturing plants in China probably wouldn't lead to a significant increase in price. As someone else mentioned in the comments, paying Chinese workers American pay rates for their labo
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1. All the manufacturers don't take advantage of this. And most of them aren't as bad as Apple.
Name one tech hardware company that doesn't. Hint – in the exact same factory you'll find lines making XBoxes for MS, phones for Nokia, computers for Dell.
3. Improving conditions in manufacturing plants in China probably wouldn't lead to a significant increase in price. As someone else mentioned in the comments, paying Chinese workers American pay rates for their labour would increase the cost of an iPad by $70. Compared to the price of the device, one may call this significant or not.
That sure as hell is significant if I can have a Dell tablet for $500, or an apple one for $570 ;)
Because Apple charges enough to be made in America (Score:5, Insightful)
Additionally, Apple is very brand conscious. If people start boycotting and picketing Apple Stores, the protest could actually work. The other manufacturers like Lenovo and Dell and Microsoft have some retail presence, but nothing like Apple.
Re:They all do it. why just apple? (Score:5, Insightful)
But where will you find 100,000 Americans within 30 minutes of a mega-factory that can hold 100,000 people on an assembly line?
Where those Americans are willing to work 60 hour weeks on a shift basis doing extremely repetitive assembly work?
Detroit?
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah, I think some of them tried that about 20 years ago. Quite a number of them were slaughtered by the Chinese Army, as I recall. It's a bit tough to stand up and protest when you're dealing with a ruthless dictatorship willing to kill to get its way.