Apple Has Stopped iOS Downgrading 207
An anonymous reader noted a forum post seems to confirmApple will be
fighting downgrading in iOS 5. Quoting:
"This will only affect restores starting at iOS5 and onward, and Apple will be able to flip that switch off and on at will (by opening or closing the APTicket signing window for that firmware, like they do for the BBTicket)."
Walled Garden (Score:5, Insightful)
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You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
that's only if you take the black version of the iphone/ipad
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Jesus. Don't give apple any ideas. I can see the iphone skins being made as we speak.
As a side note, I have been messing with iOS 5 beta 2 SDK and I really like the iCloud feature.
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Great reference.
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You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
Apple might tell you you're a unique snowflake and that using iProducts asserts your identity and creativity, but all in all, you're just another brick in their wall.
Hey! Apple! Leave those phones alone!
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You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
What exactly is this supposed to mean? This really isn't that big of a deal to the overwhelming majority of people. It's not as polar as you are making it out to be.
It's more like, "you live by a wall, you can't walk through it except where the door is". I mean, sure, that's *kind of* a bad thing, barely. But not a big deal. If you want on the other side of a wall, you walk through it where the doorway is.
Or, to look at it in a different way, more people value the so-called "walled garden" than care about s
Re:Desert without walls... (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.
I assume this was sarcasm. But the difference, as I understand it, is that on Android, a user doesn't need to downgrade to a jailbreakable version just to install applications outside the scope of what the central app store's curator allows. All Android-powered phones support adb install, and most support "Unknown sources". Even AT&T has been turning "Unknown sources" back on [androidfools.com] due to popular demand for Amazon Appstore.
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I assume this was sarcasm. But the difference, as I understand it, is that on Android, a user doesn't need to downgrade to a jailbreakable version just to install applications outside the scope of what the central app store's curator allows. All Android-powered phones support adb install, and most support "Unknown sources". Even AT&T has been turning "Unknown sources" back on [androidfools.com] due to popular demand for Amazon Appstore.
This argument is akin to the one made for Windows some decades back. "But look at the abundance of great shareware for the platform", while actually it was more like a steaming pile of VB6 homework projects.
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And you're suggesting that the App store's software is that much better? Please, considering how fast the collection has been growing for both options, it's pretty clear that at least 90% of both stores are full of crap.
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But it's a bigger steaming pile wearing a black tuttleneck sweater...
It does not mater the platform, you will ALWAYS get steaming pile of crap apps. It's required.
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No I agree there's a lot of crappy software in both but I think in general the software quality doesn't exactly improve if you "go off the beaten path" of the big centralized app stores so to speak. Most professional developers and serious amateurs take the trouble of getting into the big app stores. I'm also not saying there isn't anything out there from "side loading" app sites (or whatever it's called in Android) or even the jailbreak Cydia store for iPhone but it seems they are most valuable to a small
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software quality doesn't exactly improve if you "go off the beaten path"
Very few people "go off the beaten path" to find better quality. They go off the beaten path to get features that aren't supported on the beaten path. So far I haven't felt the need to do so with android, although with my next upgrade I will probably be forced outside of the google app store to get tethering without having to pay my provider, since the tethering app I use in no longer available in the app store. With an iPhone, I would have been forced to jailbreak to run apps similar to the ones I use
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Then you get a single company (Apple) dictating the APIs that developers can use. Some of my fun OSX apps can't be added to the Apple App Store since they use private APIs.
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That's sort of a red herring -- as is this entire article -- because you cannot and have never been able to downgrade without jailbreaking in the first place. Apple has ALWAYS closed the signing window for older iOS versions within minutes to days of a new release.
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There are levels of "pwning" a phone.
A HTC phone that is rooted, re-rommed (Cyanogen, etc), and S/OFF-ed is all yours completely. You can do what you want with it. There are sites that actually let you build your own custom ROM, including/excluding stuff as you see fit.
I'd probably say the levels are:
1: ADB access.
2: Ability to sideload.
3: Temporary root (until reboot).
4: Permanent root.
5: Carrier unlock.
6: Custom ROMs doable via kexec(), but kernel signed. This is how all Motorola phone but the Dr
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I carrier unlocked my iPhone too. I bought one from the Apple Store, brand new, sim-free, with no carrier lock.
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You can rule your phone completely with Android.
Hah. I really have no interest in being welcomed as my phone's new overlord.....
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There are levels of "pwning" a phone.
And the classic nerd mistake is to think that most people give half a shit about any of that, except for carrier unlocking which is orthogonal to the rest of the list.
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Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.
I hope you're @(*$ joking. It took me 10x as long to 'root' my Optimus V as it did to get my iPod Touch jailbroken.
My girlfriend can't get rid (easily) of her "i" Sprint button on her home screen. Mine at least links to something useful like my browser. Look at how Motorola, et al are locking down their Android devices so you can't put custom stuff on them.
Android is more 'open' but it is not this magical mecca that people on Slashdot keep proclaiming it to be.
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http://www.uberphones.com/2011/06/motorola-unlocks-the-atrix-4gs-bootloader-and-brings-gingerbread-update/ [uberphones.com]
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2074391/htc-unlock-bootloader-smartphones [theinquirer.net]
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1. Those who need it. Dumb fuckers who should not be allowed onto the internet at all ever. (Hope the make the wall bigger for them.)
You mean iOS devices don't have an unrestricted web browser? Weird, I must be using some sort of alternative universe iPod touch...
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Until Apple decide that all websites should pay them a royalty for being accessible to an iDevice; or, they decide a website might have adult material and therefore offend His Jobsness and be blocked as porn.
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Seriously, it's a phone. You call people on it, you do a bit of browsing and email on it. Run a few apps on it.
Some of us have better things to do than worry about root access, building ROMs and "using the device how I want".
When you have a serious lack of time due to family commitments, social life and other hobbies you just want a phone that works well and doesn't require lots of techie time to get it working well.
People who defend their choice of phone by the ability to build and install their own ROM ne
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Officially they never enabled it anyway (Score:4, Interesting)
I have faith the Dev Team or someone will figure out some sort of work around. Otherwise, it has never been officially enabled anyway which is just a crazy setup. It's nonsensical to not allow people to change versions of iOS. Lots of iphone 3G people I am sure wish they could switch back to iOS v3 after finding v4 too slow. I understand security holes plugged might be part of the reason they do this, but since Apple stops supporting some of the devices (iphone 3G and iphone 1) anyway, it can't be why they don't allow downgrading...
Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
1. In most walled gardens with cryptographically secured clients(either hardware devices or software DRM piles on general purpose PCs) downgrading is a valuable tool for attackers: unless a fundamental attack is found, most attacks are comparatively minor bugs in version N or game Y's savegame loading routine or whatever, which are then fixed in version N+1 or game Y Gold Edition. If downgrading is possible, it becomes pretty trivial for people to keep a copy of the easiest-to-exploit firmware or software version that ever received a cryptographic signature, and then downgrade to it. If downgrading isn't possible, they have to keep finding fresh exploits as old holes are closed. This is the same reason why software that connects to DRMed media sources tends to get updated a zillion times a year, and why such updates are generally made mandatory pretty quickly.
2. At least some of the updates, for Apple's flagship devices(upon which the iPod touch and wifi-only iPad are sort of hangers-on), aren't just OS update lumps, they also meddle with the embedded cellular hardware's firmware. Allowing downgrading would require dealing with v.N+1 basebands talking to v.N OSes, or involve allowing the baseband firmware to be downgraded(which is of interest to unlockers and other parties who Apple's carrier buddies don't approve of) and may involve some amount of bricking risk.
3. Apple has, at least until shitstorms forced their hand, never been much troubled at the idea that they are seen as forcing people to upgrade(remember their original response to the iPod battery life problem, until whining forced them to change it? Or the various OS 10.x releases that have dropped support for hardware configs upon which, once the version check is hacked away, it can in fact run?). This seems to be a matter both of business and of philosophy: Obviously, as a hardware maker, anything that makes people buy new hardware is profitable. Philosophically, they have never shied away from a pattern of releases of the form "Here is version N+1, it is insanely great. Everything prior to today is an obsolete archaism. On the plus side, this allows them to do interesting things with some regularity. On the minus side, this makes them quite happy to declare various features dead well before some of their customers are ready. The idea that they would dedicate engineering effort to allowing people with version N-1 or N-2 devices to run an obsolete OS runs against their priorities.
Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that your work in OS security may have induced a certain amount of myopia. My discussion purely applied to DRM systems because DRM systems are the only scenario where the 'attacker' has access to the system from day one(it's their device, or the software running on their PC); and wishes to compromise the system's security. With other classes of software, the person with personal access and the vendor are allies in wanting the system to be secure.
If you think I'm a non-technical idiot, pull your head out of the confines of one particular flavor of security work and do a little research:
It's pretty painless: Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] has a list of iOS/baseband firmware versions, with handy notes about which baseband 'fixes' are there to deal with unlocking... A little googling will dig up some of the oddities involved in trying to mix versions. For virtually any DRM/walled garden system in wide consumer use(say, iDevice/PS3/xbox/Wii/PSP/DS/DSi) a quick google of 'Name downgrade' will pull up a sheet of results containing, depending on the system, a mixture of information on how to downgrade to more vulnerable firmware before running a hack or people with presently unhacked firmware on their devices hunting for downgrading information.
For the software case, one can look up various DRM-stripping tools, many of which will specify themselves as working only with certain older versions of the application that they attack, or (holding one's nose) attempt to connect to a DRMed service and be informed that you will need to upgrade to get access.
Within the specific domain of OS security I have no interest in arguing with your correctness; but you appear to have stepped into something quite different in attempting to talk about anti-customer security features, which are subject to their own peculiar dynamics... Try not to be rude when travelling.
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Ah, it is nice to see that my impression of you as a security professional was correct. I got about half way through my response to him before realizing he was misreading your post as being an external attacker rather than a cryptographic attacker. Hopefully between your clarification and mine it will make sense to him now.
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Wow. I don't get mistaken for a mac enthusiast often.
Pay him no mind. The man has issues that go far deeper than simple misunderstandings or differences of opinion.
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I hate to be the one to break this to you, but, using your own terminology, you are the clueless idiot (or at least failed at reading comprehension). I'm a professional software developer that graduated from a top computer science school in the country and specialized in security. FuzzyFuzzyFungus was completely correct in what he was saying, and I believe you may have misinterpreted what he was saying. From your response, it seems you are seeing the reference to attackers as referring to someone trying
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This will piss off small developers (Score:2)
Or at least the ones who can't afford a phone solely devoted to running beta iOS releases.
If I can't return my wife's iPhone to its supported state after loading a beta release, I can't load that release.
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What? You mean it costs *money* to buy hardware to develop on? What the hell?!
Or, you could just use the emulator if you can't afford an iPod touch to test on and don't want to run beta software on your one and only iPhone.
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You complain about lack of freedom with the iPhone, and you want to switch to Samsung? Seriously, that seems like you are just replacing one evil with another. There are certainly open android phones out there, but they are not made by Samsung.
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You complain about lack of freedom with the iPhone, and you want to switch to Samsung? Seriously, that seems like you are just replacing one evil with another. There are certainly open android phones out there, but they are not made by Samsung.
Er, Samsung doesn't have a good track record across their entire line, although unlike some mfrs, they do not lock their bootloader making upgrades via unconventional means very easy. However, they do make the newest, openest android handset on the market so you probably should give them some credit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexus_S [wikipedia.org]
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Only open because it's Google's flagship and that's a requirement. However, the phone is a turd compared to what's out there (no external storage, no 4G, and a couple of others).
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The Nexus S 4G is on Sprint.
Your other comments still apply.
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Well, having used both device types, just a word of warning. iOS is a LOT more user friendly than Android. Some of the UI design decisions in Android are just so stupid. I do like a lot about android, but I really would love a device that combined ios and android best stuff -- then again most people would! Android is great if you want the ability to futz around endlessly with your device and willing to spend the time to figure out what to install etc, whereas iOS has things ready to go for most of what mo
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What of it is better, specifically?
It's the simplicity of just getting stuff done with less options as the flip-side. Here's one example related to how Android makes things more complicated then needed for most people -- deleting/removing/uninstalling an app you no longer want on your device.
To remove an app in iOS hold down your finger on the icon and then click the "X" to delete the app. Done
In Android (2.2 with HTC Sense is all I have access to at the moment), go to list of applications window, select the Settings app, scroll through the
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Similarly, on Android, to make a phone call, you press the phone icon. But on Apple, for a while, people had to move their hand and grip the phone in a particular way (for most, doing this while sucking Steve Jobs' dick did the trick, dunno about you).
I know which one is better than the the other.
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If you think that's proper response, then reply with that. I don't use Android either and I don't give a fuck about it. (And you see, you automatically assumed I would be offended with your Rubin remarks, which just proves how you view the whole thing - Apple v/s Google - while my point of view always is me against the walled gardens)
For me, the only way to point out flaming fanboism when fanbois go to any length to protect their gods while he is stealing somebody's liver is to say it so. I know, facts can
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Thanks for your helpful reply (unlike the silly anonymous coward replies above).
I am one of those that never saw much use for multiple "desktops" on my computer, and don't especially need it on a smart phone. What I would like is an easy way to just delete an app I don't want. The extra capability you describe, while nice for those that want to do it, it just makes things more conceptually confusing. It's strange that a nice and clear existing button called Remove that you drag an app to remove from the
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In 3.1 on my xoom they do a good job. On the desktop, when you long hold you can drag to a trash can that says "remove" and that simply removes it from the desktop. On the app list, long holding makes "Uninstall" button appear that you can drag too.
If I recall correctly, the next android phone version is supposed to bring a lot of improvements from the tablet version.
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I actually managed to switch from iOS4 to iOS3 on my 3g iPhone. It took about 4 hours. All part of Apple's nickle and dime scheme. 1) Release update that ruins phone by slowing it down considerably 2) Make it impossible to downgrade (by any official means) 3) Watch the sheep all buy the new iPhone 4.
Needless to say, my next phone will be an android. The samsung infuse looks nice (I have to stay with ATT)
Apple didn't purposely slow down your iPhone 3G to get you to upgrade.
It's absurd. Apple blocks some features (like background wallpapers), because they will slow down the phone, and get yelled at for "artificially" keeping features off of older phones, but the features they *do* bring to older hardware slows things down a little, and it's a conspiracy!
They don't block downgrading as some sort of "trap". It's to limit the number of potential issues people can have. It's part of what makes Apple products "ju
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Plus of course if they block downgrading you can't downgrade to a jailbreakable version.
Funny how Apple fans brag that Apple stuff is more secure but then say they can jailbreak it by visiting a website.
Who says that? Basically, Android fans. And for the very reason you outline: it's a security flaw, and it's outdated information.
And when Apple decide to fix the exploit they downgrade to be able to keep jailbreaking. And then when Apple stop that they explain it's all for their own good.
"For their own good" is silly. It's done to make the product better. "For their own good" is something you force upon people, like, "we had to subdue him, for his own good". All Apple products are purchased on strictly voluntary terms. If you voluntarily buy something with limits, it's not generally "for your own good" (although it can be, but this isn't such a case).
Seriously believing all those mutually contradictory things simultaneously is actually quite impressive.
I've seen few
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I found... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I found when I upgraded from iOS3 to iOS4 on my 1st gen iPad it caused it to work sluggishly. I was considering going back to iOS3 if possible and I'm even more afraid to go to iOS5. I got the iPad at xmas and not even 6 months in I felt I'm already behind in performance.
Strange, no one I know with ipad 1 has had any issues with iOS 4.
I suggest you do a re-install and this time setup as a NEW ipad. Most people with these sort of issues with iOS find that setup as a new device (again, NOT restore from backup) takes care of the issue.
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Happy to help. I am fairly certain this will fix your problem.
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Agreed - I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet, besides the fact that they removed my favourite wallpaper from iOS4 (the desert island scene), so really I lost out :( Haven't found anywhere that offers it as a download yet either.
Also, they never fixed any of the annoyances I had - Safari should not randomly reload a page just because it feels like it (yeah, sure, its out of ram, so lets reload pages when you switch to them - bang goes my half filled form, or the p
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Agreed - I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet, besides the fact that they removed my favourite wallpaper from iOS4 (the desert island scene), so really I lost out :( Haven't found anywhere that offers it as a download yet either.
You mean this one [amazonaws.com] ?
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Nope, this was an almost cartoony desert island with palm trees scene - you could see the entire island in a deep blue sea.
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That's not an official wallpaper, not in 3.2.2 at least. You can see the official complement of wallpapers in this screenshot [ipadshots.com]. The closest to what you describe is the "oasis [dospy.com]" wallpaper, palm trees surrounded by desert.
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I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet.
Unless you don't use any apps, there are bound to many you use that are using parts of iOS4 that did not exist in 3.x. Just because it's not a feature the user can see doesn't mean it's not there. I guess you don't play (multiplayer) games either, as GameKit is 4.x.
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Thanks, turned out I misremembered it - twas the palm oasis one :D
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Android runs shitty on Apple hardware. It's not just video accelleration that Android needs, it's the underpowered hardware.
The original iPhone and iPhone 3G, for example, have only 400MHz processors, which is slower than the original G1's 524MHz CPU (over 25% faster). They also have 128MB of RAM, versus 192MB for the G1.
Specwise, almost all Apple iOS hardware i
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Apple isn't forcing anyone. iTunes will ask very nicely if you want to upgrade, download file only or go away and not bother you again (until the next version that is.)
Re:I found... (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple has this way of forcing you to upgrade your hardware by making it useless via forcing you to upgrade your software. This guarantees that you'll always be out buying the newest hardware so that you can continue to be a loyal customer to them.
Forcing you to upgrade your software? Offering features that sound good isn't exactly FORCING you to upgrade.
Actually, this is a very good point and one of the glaring problems that Apple iPhone and Apps Store has: No user-oriented software version control. (The vendor-oriented software version controls seems to work fine.)
Yes, you can upgrade wholesale but you cannot really manage your software with their version control.
Want to skip a version? Fuck you.
Want to roll back to a better, older, previously paid-for version? Fuck you.
Have to do a restore but like the older version? Fuck you.
iPhone users have little of the control that Mac OS X users are accustomed to. Really sucks and one reason I'm worried as Apple transmutes Mac OS X into a iOS clone.
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Well there is a difference. If your iOS device somehow gets borked and yuo want to do a restore firmware you now cant go back to the original one and (if this story is true) it means that you're forced to install the newer (and potentially slower) iOS.
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That has always been the case for regular users since the iPhone 3Gs (and all devices that came afterwards, including iPod Touches and iPads).
You can't downgrade unless you have the SHSH blob for your device running that version. You don't need to jailbreak to
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Not if it's from HP....
Got one here, NO DRIVERS for the HP hardware. they only made 32bit drivers and they dont work on 64bit windows 7.
Made me stop from ever buying another HP product ever again. Even their printers... Never again!
Stopped? (Score:2)
More like Apple has implimented another annoying, eventually to be circumvented, impediment to downgrading.
I feel... (Score:2)
I feel that their objective is simple.
They release an "upgrade" that degrades performance on older phones. People update because of the new features but soon decide it is too slow for their taste and try to downgraded back to when it was ok.
Since now they won't be able to, and their phone is ruined, they decide they need a new phone. But all those apps they bought are stuck to iThings, so, not wanting to lose them, they buy a new iPhone.
*Sigh*
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They release an "upgrade" that degrades performance on older phones. People update because of the new features but soon decide it is too slow for their taste and try to downgraded back to when it was ok.
Probably, any company would smile at that prospect. I think it's more likely that Apple's been keeping an eye on what's been happening with the PSP and are trying to stay ahead of those trying to jailbreak their products. There are people who have their PSPs at a certain version of the firmware and won't go past it. That means no buying of new PSP games since they often require the newest version available at the time of their release.
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However, there are yet still some who do not upgrade for whatever reason.
Inaccurate title (Score:3)
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You might as well post "Apple Stops Jailbreaking".
And, somehow, that's how some people will view it.
They'd be wrong, but some will find a way to view it that way.
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My personal favorite Apple cultist argument is when they remove a feature. Whenever they do this and people complain, the cultists inevitably excuse it by saying "I'm sure they'll put it back in later."
I've been using the beta (Score:2)
I've been using the beta and now beta 2 on both my iphone and my ipad. As of beta 2, you can now sync wirelessly, but syncing in general has become somewhat unreliable. Lots of wierd errors. But I'm not going to go up in arms since it IS only a beta.
However I've found the wifi usage on my devices to be significantly improved. I was hoping my 3g stability would improve but it still sucks. But my phone is a 3gs and I haven't noticed any issues performance-wise. Ditto with my Gen 1 ipad. So far I'm quite
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With each release, Apple reduces my interest in Jailbreaking. Fact is, the tethering and the unlock are the only reason left for me nowadays. If apple wants to kill jailbreaking, just kill the reasons to jailbreak. I know of one big jailbreak dev who stopped with iOS 4 as he didn't really find it needed anymore with the new APIs apple had introduced in ios 4
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The only glaring thing that is still missing for me is an easy way to toggle bluetooth and wifi on and off. I could do that with SBSettings.
I think the post explains it poorly (Score:2)
The difference is that the restore is done on-device now (over the air updates). And the device sends a nonce to get an APTicket.
The restore app must be hacked to save the nonce and the APTicket together, and now since the app is on the device, it's going to be more difficult than it was before.
Apple never wanted downgrades before, that's why they stopped signing old code per device a while back, hence the "save your blobs" movement.
Message from smug Android user: (Score:2)
Bon appetite!
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That depends. Do you love Apple products and think that they provide a slick, productive, secure intrrface? If so, this is wonderful news. Do you hate Apple and everything they stand for, and detest the idea of compromising your freedom for the safety of a walled garden? If so, this is draconian fascism that threatens the foundation of western freedom.
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Being able to customise their device and install any old rubbish on it would ruin the device. I am convinced that a mobile device can only be as slick and solid as Apple's devices by being within a walled garden. As soon as you knock down the walls, it is inevitable that weeds will get in. Or, is the state of Android not as bad as it seems? I'm willing to change my mind if I'm wrong.
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Possibly an English language translation would benefit those people not fluent in Apple. Is this more of a "hurray, Apple have finally put a stop to the scourge of downgrading" or more of a "booo, why are Apple stopping people downgrading"?
This is more a "Huh, Apple has finally closed the loophole we were using to allow downgrades but we all knew this was coming."
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Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (Score:4, Insightful)
Speaking from experience: I had a less-than-a-year-old iPhone 3g, which got semi-bricked when I installed the iOS 4 update last summer (stated as compatible, as in Vista-compatible).
At the time, I was able to downgrade back to a previous iOS release; but, being unable to call even emergency numbers for minutes (oh, if the phone didn't crash entirely) until they fixed their memory-hogging, badly written OS months later (iOS 4.2), would be a very bad thing.
If you had a less than a year old iPhone 3G, then you had a warranty. I can't imagine what you had to worry about. Oh, wait, I just saw the thing about being unable to call emergency numbers for MINUTES. This is good advice, and should be in the disclaimer in iTunes. Never start an iOS upgrade in the middle of a house robbery, or other event that might require you calling 911, unless you have another phone handy.
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I know you went for teh funneh, but iOS4 killed the 3G for a lot of people and invariably in different ways - for example, I found myself randomly (but more often than not) in the situation where my phone was ringing, the screen had the swipe thing up to answer, but the phone was not responding to the swipe. Once the call failed over to voice mail, the phone acted as normal.
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I refuse to drive on toll roads.