Death Grip Tested On iPhone Competitors 373
adeelarshad82 writes "Given Steve Jobs' recent claims about 'Death Grip' being a common problem among smart phones, PCMag tested out six major iPhone competitors to see how they would react to the grip. The test included Motorola Droid X, T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide, Droid Incredible by HTC, BlackBerry Bold 9650, and the Samsung Captivate. The signal strength was measured in dBm, which typically ranges between -50 to -110 dBm (numbers closer to zero show better signal). Interestingly, the test results video showed mixed results. T-Mobile myTouch 3G and Samsung Captivate showed drastic changes, dropping down to -89 and -97 dBm respectively. On the other hand, while the signal strength dropped for HTC Droid Incredible, Motorola Droid X and Blackberry Bold, it wasn't as severe. Results of testing showed that not all phones reacted the same way to the typical death grip and required variations of it to bring about results."
Fascinating Conclusions (Score:5, Informative)
No, really, I mean it.
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You are forgetting rule 34. It would appear (if you look for it) that the iphone 4 shape has no problem. As for how well it works for that purpose, I have no idea, and I have no plans to find out.
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iPhone wins.
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Try a donut with rainbow sprinkles (or double rainbow sprinkles, all the way!). iPhone loses on pretty.
How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:5, Insightful)
How many of them have bare metal antennas on the surface of the phone? No matter what weasel words Steve chooses, there is no excuse for this defect.
So what if other phones require a "death grip" to affect signal strength? After all, all phones are subject to the laws of physics; if you block the signal, there is nothing the phone can do about it.
Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:4, Interesting)
The issue was the death grip affecting signal strength. You even used Apple's "physics" defense to state that it affects all phones. What does a bare metal antenna have to do with it if all phones are affected?
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Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry but you don't even know what you are talking about. I refer you to http://www.anandtech.com/show/3821/iphone-4-redux-analyzing-apples-ios-41-signal-fix [anandtech.com]. People are assuming "bridging" or "shorting" is the problem. Anadtech shows a 10db performance difference, they do not specify the cause. The redux article above clearly states they talked to metallurgists that stated stainless steel is a poor conductor, and your hand is a poor conductor.
Find an old radio. Touch the middle of the antenna, it effects the sound quality. Now touch the tip of the antenna. It effects quality much more drastically. THIS is what the iPhone 4 is doing.
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You must be a crazy Apple fanboy. It doesn't matter if it isn't shorting or bridging. The fact is that iPhone 4 has an additional defect that when the exterior antennae are connected by your hand, you lose 10 db on top of the death grip. Oh, did Jobs point this out? Huh? No? Oh. Liar.
Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:5, Funny)
Well there are more problems than those two. There's:
As someone sitting on the sidelines, I don't know how to sort it all out. How much of this problem is caused by the apparent design flaw? No point in answering that question-- I won't trust you.
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While its absolutely true that a 'death grip' can cause signal loss on any phone, just as sticking it in a Faraday cage can, Apple is currently conflating two different problems. The first, where your hand blocks some signal is common to all phones.
However, there is a second problem with the iPhone 4. When you touch it in the wrong place, you, a conductor, connect two different antennae that each are designed to work at a specific wavelength. When you bring the two together, and throw your body into the
Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:5, Informative)
and if it really bothers me some tape or some clear nail polish should fix it.
It is possible that clear nail polish will do very little to mitigate the problem. At those frequencies, capacitive coupling can be as good as a DC conducting path. The bumper adds a millimeter or so of space which reduces the capacitive coupling as compared to nail polish.
Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:5, Informative)
The issue was the death grip affecting signal strength. You even used Apple's "physics" defense to state that it affects all phones. What does a bare metal antenna have to do with it if all phones are affected?
Hello and welcome to the world of physics.
Shit (both matter and energy) can interfere with electromagnetic signals, like those used by your cellular telephones.
When reception is hindered by your hand, the concrete in your building, or whatever else, we say the signal is "attenuated".
Modern devices can handle a large range of attenuation before showing any negative effects, and they can handle even more attenuation before the fail completely.
All cell phones experience attenuation.
The iPhone 4 experiences attenuation, but it also experiences detuning. Detuning is what happens when you alter the electrical length of your antenna.
You see, kids, antennas need to be "tuned" to a specific frequency. When you move the dial on a radio, you're altering the electrical length of its antenna. By changing the electrical length of the antenna, the antenna then receives signals on a different frequency.
The electrical length of antenna is a combination of its physical length and some electrical properties of the material its made out of, such as the antennas total capacitance - its capacity to hold electrical current.
Unlike attenuation which gradually weakens a signal, detuning instantly and dramatically cuts the reception of a signal. Consider an old radio. Tune to your favorite station. Then turn the tuning knob to the left or right. You'll find that your favorite station is gone, and you're now listening to something in Spanish!
The iPhone 4's antennas become detuned when human skin or another conductor bridges the cellular antenna's bezel with the next bezel, another point on the case of the phone, or just the skin. This is due to a design flaw in the antennas. Apple decided to make external, conductive antennas on the body of a portable device. This, by any measure, is fucking retarded.
I hope you have enjoyed your brief visit to the world of physics! If you would like to know more, you can go fuck yourself.
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I won't repeat the rest of your colorful misinformed ramblings. However, it's worth pointing out that when you know nothing about physics or electronics, you shouldn't spout off as if you do. For instance, when you move a dial on a radio you in fact are not altering the electrical length of its antenna. What you are actually doing is tuning a bandpass filter to a different region of the rf spectrum. The antenna is typically designed to collect as much of the rf spectrum as possible and tuning (i.e. moving t
Re:How many of them have bare metal antennas? (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually the guy doesn't know shit. You know how when you got to junior high you discovered they'd taught you simplified BS versions of science and history when you were younger? Then when you get to senior high you discover the stuff you got taught in junior high was also simplified BS? Then when you get to university you discover even senior high was teaching you simplified BS? I stopped there, but I bet if I'd kept studying I would discover I was taught simplified BS in university as well.
Well this guy is spouting the junior high BS version of how radios work. It's wrong. He's wrong. But he's an arrogant prick, which often passes for authority on the Internet. Take this nonsense:
Total rubbish. Not even close to reality. On old-school radios the dial changed the reactance of a resonant circuit which is then fed to a detector. The antenna continues to "receive" all the same RF frequencies. Modern radios don't even have dials (or more to the point, any dial that does exist is not a direct reactance control). None of this has any relevance to mobile phone radios and antennas.
This is the problem with the iPhone 4 "antenna gate" story. A bunch of dolts start spouting off crackpot theories, with no real knowledge or understanding of how radios work, or a simplified understanding based on AM and VHF radios, and a huge echo chamber then repeats the nonsense.
I'm quite content to say "I don't fucking know" if the iPhone 4 antenna design is good or bad. I know just enough to know that I know next to nothing at all about mobile phone radios. But given the choice between Apple's engineers, who have actual doctorates in mobile phone radio theory, and some ignorant Slashdot schmuck's BS explanation of radios... well you figure it out.
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It's not that critical. The antenna actually receives a fairly wide band of frequencies. Old radios use a resonant circuit to "vibrate" with the desired frequency. You adjust the resonance with a variable inductor (like you saw) or a variable capacitor (plates of metal that interleaved without touching). The antenna length isn't critical; it just has to be ro
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The amount of problems you experience when this happens is dependent on many factors.
Most importantly is the reception in your area before detuning. Detuning has been shown to cause a drop of over 20 dB. Cell phones typically have "perfect" reception at anything higher than -50 dBm, and will be more than adequate for voice calls anywhere above -90 dBm.
The degree to which you lose signal (in terms of raw dB) is dependent on how you bridge the antenna (how much you change its electrical length) and what you
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Yeah, the recent advertising from Apple has been unlike Apple. In the past, they usually acted too cool to describe their products that way and would use a simple tagline to let the product speak for itself (e.g., "Introducing Mac mini" or "240 songs. A million different ways." for the iPod shuffle).
Calling it magical is really corny, and so are the video interviews of Apple employees talking about how amazing it is. I liked the faceless, too-cool-for-the-room advertising from the time before the iPad.
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Yeah, the recent advertising from Apple has been unlike Apple. In the past, they usually acted too cool to describe their products that way and would use a simple tagline to let the product speak for itself (e.g., "Introducing Mac mini" or "240 songs. A million different ways." for the iPod shuffle).
Calling it magical is really corny, and so are the video interviews of Apple employees talking about how amazing it is. I liked the faceless, too-cool-for-the-room advertising from the time before the iPad.
Yeah, it was a video interview of Ives talking about the new unibody laptops that made me first realize it. He had this twinkle in his eye when he said the word magical, like it was just the most amazing thing ever. I'm a mechanical engineer and a machinist and I think its pretty cool that they machine the laptops now - it takes a lot of skill to pull off that much machining on such a mass market product... but magical? No.
They're just taking themselves too seriously now.
-Taylor
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I've described it as a conjuring trick (the iPad) it's almost like the computer disappeared just leaving the content. Of course it didn't, and sure we know how it works (so the Arthur C Clarke "magic" doesn't apply). But it is deeply cool. I agree some of the effects really "sell" the experience and scrolling is high on that list.
I find the iPad very useful, and I use it like a giant PDA (weirdly I seldom listen to music on it, or watch films - I do play games on it). I tend to bounce between the email and
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The thing is, the larger surface area of the external metal antenna does mean the iPhone gets really much better reception - both voice and data.
Not exactly. Diameter of the element affects the bandwidth of the antenna (the range of frequencies where you can tolerate the SWR of the antenna.) The "surface area" is important only in dishes.
The iPhone 4 may or may not be more sensitive than other phones, but improvements in sensitivity usually come from many parts of the device, not just the antenna.
For
Enough already! (Score:3, Insightful)
How many more stories about this crap? The holy iPhone has a small defect. Guess what, it is not the biggest problem that the "form over function" philosophy has brought to the device. Those who value form will always buy the stupid device, its ability to complete calls (if you don't hold it the wrong way) is just an extra.
As for the "death grip". We were not talking about any death grips, that was never the issue and people don't usually hold their phone like that. The problem was with simply touching the device at the bottom corner and only the iPhone 4 has a problem (for "why" and "does it matter" see first paragraph of post).
And can we get on now? This is getting more annoying than dupes.
Both hands?? (Score:5, Insightful)
"[HTC Incredible] By using a death grip of both hands covering the phone we saw the results go from -57 to -64 dBm"
"[Droid X] can be difficult[...] We used two hands on this larger phone."
"[BlackBerry Bold] was a little more resistant [...] hold of it with two hands, we saw the signal strength go from -80 to -87 dBm."
Yeah, cause covering the entire phone with two hands is a perfectly normal way that people would ever use the phone. I bet if I shoved a smart phone up my a**, it would lose a lot of signal too...
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I don't like to look at my HTC with Win-Mobile on it - so I use both hands so I don't have to look at it, or if my gaze somehow crosses that plane, it is at least a little obscured by my hand.
Re:Both hands?? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Perhaps you should watch/read the press conference that Steve Jobs gave the other week. He specially pointed out X marks the spot on the iPhone, and then pointed out how holding other phones in certain other ways affected signal as well.
Re:Both hands?? (Score:5, Insightful)
First, if you hold *any* phone such that your hand blocks the antenna, you lose signal strength.
Second, if you touch a particular spot on the iPhone 4, you bridge two antenna and lose signal strength.
The second one affects only the iPhone 4, and is what people are complaining about. A rubber case fixes the problem. The first one affects every phone (including the iPhone 4), and a case will do *nothing* to fix it. Steve Jobs pulled a bait and switch: first he admitted that the iPhone has the first problem, and then he said that this was okay because every phone has the second problem. And then to avoid legal trouble he gave you something that fixes the first problem.
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I know. That is some David Blaine or Chris Angel magic right there.
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Actually, I thought the stupidest comment of Jobs' entire press conference was to say that this is the age of the smartphone, and that these things simply happen (I'm paraphrasing). To say that it's inescapable is what's utterly stupid -- if a small piece of scotch tape can fix this "flaw", I'd say that there's some engineers who weren't doing their jobs correctly.
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Have you seen a Droid X? They're monsters! You might actually need two hands.
Dropped calls (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the things I've wondered about is that Apple said the iPhone 4 does drop more calls than the 3GS. However, the iPhone 4 gets reception in locations the 3GS doesn't, so if iPhone 4 is dropping calls in situations where the 3GS wouldn't even have bars in the first place, it makes it look worse than it is.
Re:Dropped calls (Score:4, Funny)
Saying the Iphone4 is better then it's predicessors is like saying the DDR (West Germany) was better then the Soviet Union. Technically it's true but that doesn't make the DDR a nice place to live.
If West Germany was that bad, I don't even want to know what East Germany was like.
Its a radio signal (Score:2)
Of course it can be degraded depending on its environment.
What is next, the 'discovery' that batteries run down differently depending on the temperature?
What the!? (Score:5, Insightful)
They're seriously comparing phones that lose signal with a standard grip to phones where hold the phone with both hands deliberately trying to cover the antenna and pretend the result is somehow meaningful?
Wouldn't a sane signal comparison compare them using reasonably common grips? It's sorta stupid to say "When you deliberately cover both antennas with an awkward two hand grip it'll lose 10 dBm", everyone knows the antenna will lose signal if you cover it, the point is that the iPhone is so easy to cover by accident.
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They're seriously comparing phones that lose signal with a standard grip to phones where hold the phone with both hands deliberately trying to cover the antenna and pretend the result is somehow meaningful?
Wouldn't a sane signal comparison compare them using reasonably common grips? It's sorta stupid to say "When you deliberately cover both antennas with an awkward two hand grip it'll lose 10 dBm", everyone knows the antenna will lose signal if you cover it, the point is that the iPhone is so easy to cover by accident.
I'm sure they fix it in a few months with the next version of the Iphone
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With magical predictive powers, I predict Apple will release the iPhone 5 sometime in June 2011. I also predict that touching that spot on the iPhone 5 won't drop signal compared to the iPhone 4. Of course, I can't predict if touching a different spot drops signal. Oh yeah, the iPhone 5 will be bigger and badder than the iPhone 4, too.
Considering they're still shipping every single unit they make, it would seem Antennagate is a tempest
Re:What the!? (Score:5, Funny)
All the iPhones on the planet don't stop working when Apple releases a new one.
You'd never know from the users. I'm tiling my bathroom with 3g's.
Re:What the!? (Score:5, Funny)
It's not a question of where he grips it. It's a simple question of attenuation ratios.
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Listen, in order to maintain a signal, a cellphone needs...
Where are my mod points when I need them?
+5 Funny for the Monty Python reference. :)
http://www.armory.com/swallowscenes.html/ [armory.com]
Necron69
Re:What the!? (Score:5, Insightful)
They're seriously comparing phones that lose signal with a standard grip to phones where hold the phone with both hands deliberately trying to cover the antenna and pretend the result is somehow meaningful?
Of course it is meaningful - by showing that you have to go extreme measures to get even a watered-down version of the effect on these other phones it means that Jobs was full of shit when he made that claim about other phones having similar problems.
This is probably Apple's fault (Score:2, Interesting)
So I hope all of these manufacturers do the right thing and recall their phones. If it possible to do something to a phone to get it drop in signal, then the only right answer is a recall. Originally I thought that the only right answer was a free case for everyone that bought them, but then Apple gave out free cases and I had to revise my opinion. I haven't yet figured out how to make the signal drops on phones from other manufacturers somehow Apple's fault, but if I can, then I will again revise my opinio
Well, duh ;) (Score:2, Insightful)
So Steve isn't a liar? (Score:2, Troll)
Death Grip?? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Death Grip?? (Score:4, Funny)
Steve: "you have failed me for the last time"
Steve holds out hand
Fanboy: *hurk*
Why does this surprise anyone? (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps only old fogeys recall rabbit ear TV antennas for analogue TVs ... touching can improve or degrade signal. Depends on where, what frequencies, etc.
No matter how clever the engineering, there's no cheating the law of physics.
I always use a bluetooth headset and seldom hold the phone during calls; and use a case. So it all seemed like a tempest in a teacup to me.
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> No matter how clever the engineering, there's no cheating the law
> of physics.
The laws of physics to not apply to Apple.
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Did you read the article (I know this is slash dot). With each phone they had to use very unorthodox grips just to get half the signal degradation experienced by holding the Iphone4 normally.
Yes I remember TV aerials, I also remember you had to tune them because unlike digital signals you had to adjust the TV to the frequency your aerial picked up, not the frequency that was tra
People adapt (Score:2, Interesting)
People adapt to their phones to optimize their signal. Just as you stand where the signal's strongest, you adjust your grip so the signal is strongest. It's just not that big a deal when you actually use the phone.
I can now make and receive calls from locations that I couldn't before I got the phone and the call is cleaner. In exchange, I had to learn to hold my phone slightly differently than I used to. I can live with that. If you can't, don't get an iPhone.
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Wait, I just got it: This is what they meant when they said "Think Different."
Death Grip = Force choke? (Score:4, Funny)
b.s. reframing of the issue (Score:3, Insightful)
If you wrap your hands tightly around most of a phone, yes, you can produce a signal loss. You can also produce a signal loss by moving into a node or creating a standing wave pattern.
But the iPhone 4 doesn't require a "death grip", a touch of the gap separating the two antennas on the case suffices. No other phone behaves like that.
iPhone 4 Death Touch, not Death Grip (Score:3, Insightful)
The iPhone 4 antenna design flaw results in a death *touch* which is activated simply by touching a specific place on the case. This is a far worse problem than using a specific grip to block antenna signals all around with a grip of your hand. Apple is basically trying to change the conversation to be about gripping phones in specific ways blocking some radio signals (which is an issue with every cell phone ever) and away from the design flaw which results in the iPhone 4's unique "death touch" problem.
Missing the forest for the trees (Score:5, Informative)
People, people, people. Its not about the death grip. Its not about general signal loss on all phones.
It is about the magnitude of signal loss. According to Anand's article, the iPhone 4 loses 20 dBm from holding it naturally with the antenna gap covered. That is 30% of the signal range. No other phone can acheive this signal loss, even with the death grip. Most phones 10 dBm or less, or better, even with a death grip. The magnitude of the iPhone 4's signal loss is 100% higher, or more, than all of its competitors when held naturally. This is abysmal, and makes it very hard for the user to predict whether his call is in danger or not. The bar change helps this a bit, but it doesn't take away the fact that a vanilla iPhone 4 has a signal handicap on all of its competitors due to shitty engineering.
Also something to keep in mind (Score:3, Informative)
As with all dBs, this is logarithmic. A 20dBm loss is a 100x loss, 10dBm is a 10x loss. Each 10dB of attenuation is much worse than the last.
As an example if I gave you earplugs with 10dB of attenuation, it would take a conversational voice down to a quiet level. 20dB would take it down to a whisper. 30dB would put it below the background level of most rooms.
With dBs, you are talking orders of magnitude.
What is so hard to understand? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nobody has ever questioned that physical objects can block, attenuate, or otherwise distort electromagnetic radiation. That is a pretty basic fact that nobody will deny.
So, a good phone is not one that overcomes the laws of physics preventing physical objects from interfering with its signal. No. A good phone is one that is designed in a way that allows you to grab the phone in any of the usual ways that are suitable to hold a conversation or browse the web and still get a signal. They usually achieve this through properly insulated, numerous, cleverly positioned antennas. A good phone is one that grabbed in any normal way suitable for browsing/texting/talking doesn't loose too much signal. Most cellpones pass this test ok. Check the video. The ONLY phone that lost signal while being grabbed normally was the iphone 4. All the others had to be covered almost all round the phone, with a firm, very hard grip, both hands, to make them loose some signal, and even then, they performed better than the iphone4.
This is not Apple hating. It's just reality. All iphones have crappy signal. Apple designed the phone to look nice, and forgot about functionality. The iphone 4 is even worse, but all previous generations have on average worse reception thanother phones.
On the other hand, I don't like smartphones. I carry a small, shitty, Nokia 1208 cellphone. It's light, small, tough, and has a huge battery life. The battery is very easily replaced, and I carry with me a spare fully loaded battery. Many people that I work with have iphones. Most of the time, when I go down to just 1-2 bars, iphones are already completely out of signal. Example, at the elevator, every iphone user drops the call immediately, but I still keep enough signal to continue talking. That's what a cellphone is supposed to be. I don't feel the urge to carry with me a camera, a digital recorder, an audio/video player, a web browser, etc. with me at all times, but if I did, I would carry a separate device that would do all of those things, while still carrying my small, simple phone that always works.
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No ever said that blocking the antenna doesn't affect signal strength. The problem with the iPhone is that the simple act of holding it normally can cause it to completely lose all signal. That is a problem. No other phones have this problem, that is why it has never come up before.
The iPhone has a serious design flaw, there is no denying this. I just hope Apple with fix this flaw before too much longer.
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Re:So Jobs is not a liar? (Score:5, Insightful)
What's this "completely lose all signal"? I haven't seen any source for this. What I've seen is that there is a large drop in sensitivity if you hold the phone in a certain manner. If you have any reference to a complete loss of signal, please post it. If not, please stop claiming there is such a loss.
I can lose connection out here, because AT&T has low signal strength out here. I can't where I live. That suggests to me a significant but not total drop in sensitivity.
Re:So Jobs is not a liar? (Score:5, Interesting)
I know seven people with iphone 4s. All seven of them have dropped calls, or lose signal completely if they hold the phone in their left hand. If they leave the phone on a table it works fine.
With seven people out of seven people have the exact problem I would say there is a problem. They can repeat the problem over and over again. It is a design flaw. Five out of the seven are lefties who normally hold the phone in their left hand. They are really annoyed.
Re:So Jobs is not a liar? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why haven't they taken the device back for a refund? I know if I purchased a phone that didn't work properly I'd just take it back. This is the best way to teach Apple a lesson about quality control, if they are selling defective phones/phones which don't work with AT&T/phones you don't like/phones you can't hold normally - they should pay for it with a huge return rate. Take your pick of the list of purported reasons, whatever it is, if it's serious enough to lead to lots of dropped calls, why bother with the phone?
Luckily, I bought one of the magical iPhone 4s which isn't affected by any problem with dropped calls (0 over the last month), so I won't be returning mine.
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The music is not locked in.
The apps are specific to iOS, so they could go for a 3GS if they were finding the iPhone 4 to be useless, but didn't want to part with their apps. In the same way that if I move from Windows, my windows apps don't work on my Mac (without emulation/parallels etc).
They would likely find that the 3GS does not get a signal at all in the areas where the death grip affects the iPhone 4, so swings and roundabouts.
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Re:So Jobs is not a liar? (Score:5, Informative)
Let's do what the article should've done and quantify it. The worst signal loss they could get from the other phones by death-gripping them is about -14 dB. They didn't provide figures for the iPhone 4, probably because Apple makes this hard to find out, but IIRC it's been measured at -24 dB. That means that if you death-grip the iPhone 4 your signal is reduced to about 1/200th of what it was, and if you do the same to the worst of the normal smartphones it's instead reduced to 1/20th.
Re:So Jobs is not a liar? (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought the iPhone4 would only lose all signal if you're already in a low signal area?
That is, for all these other phones that lost signal strength, if they were in a low signal area, they could very well lose all the signal as well?
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Yeah but with AT&T, the entire US continent is a low signal area.
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There are countless videos on YouTube submitted by users demonstrating the same effect with non-iPhones, and Apple has posted their own antenna page [apple.com] with videos of competing phones losing signal. It seems to be an issue in low-signal areas and is a fact of life for all smartphones.
Re:So Jobs is not a liar? (Score:4, Informative)
It's not just smart phones. I had aNoxia 97xx that would drop calls if held a certain way. It always seemed obvious to me that it was attenuation.
Having said that,I thought Apple was nuts to expose the metal, and had presumed originally that it was covered in clear polymer. Every school kid radio fan knows what happens to the signal if you grab the antenna, right? So why would you make a phone with a naked antenna?
On the other hand I've played with a few 4s and the issue is IMO not nearly as severe as the tempest would imply, and while most people I know can reproduce the problem several indicate that the phone works in places where previous models didn't. If I were in the market I would still buy one. I would use a case as a matter of course anyway (put one on the 3gs immediately, have you seen what these things cost?). Not Apple's case, I swear Apple has no idea how to make a good case.
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"No other phones have this problem"?
Riiiight. Then why do ALL of their manuals tell you NOT to hold it certain ways which decrease signal strength?
http://dontholditwrong.tumblr.com/ [tumblr.com]
If Apple put the 'death grip' in their manual, would everyone be ok with that?
Re:So Jobs is not a liar? (Score:4, Informative)
There must be huge variation from iPhone 4 to iPhone 4. I'm right handed and almost always hold my phone in my left hand. (I keep seeing stories that suggest that this problem affects lefties more, because they hold their phones with their left hands, but this seems backwards to me.)
I can't detect any problem with holding my phone in my left hand. I do see a substantial improvement in apparent coverage. Works reliably in my office, where my iPhone 3g was spotty at best. Voice works (but data sucks) in the basement of my office, where I had NO coverage before. I can only attribute this to the antenna redesign.
I think there must be some marginal phones out there, but it seems that there are a lot of iPhone 4s out there that are working well. And I think there's an aweful lot of hype around this problem. Maybe the lesson is that if you live by hype you can die by hype?
-Peter
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No ever said that blocking the antenna doesn't affect signal strength. The problem with the iPhone is that the simple act of holding it normally can cause it to completely lose all signal. That is a problem. No other phones have this problem, that is why it has never come up before.
The iPhone has a serious design flaw, there is no denying this. I just hope Apple with fix this flaw before too much longer.
Except that your argument is easily nullified. All cell phones have always dropped signal when touched, yes, even with a single finger. It's physics. You touch the phone, you mess with the antenna, signal drops. All cell phones, always. I have always noticed this with every cell phone I've had in the last 10 years. All of them. Always. You need to be more observant.
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He's lied about being sterile to try and get out of paternity and he ripped the Woz off a few grand back by lying even before they started Apple. So he is most definitely a liar and a douche, but the question is, is he lying this time?
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Because, in competition, that's all there is. A phone will do better or worse in the marketplace based on how it compares to its possible substitutes, not how good it is in any absolute sense. If the iPhone were unique in losing signal depending on grip, it would be a serious mark against it and indicate that Apple was particularly inept. Since many other phones lose signal depending on grip, it's not a competitive disadvantage, and it doesn't mark Apple as inept.
It's sort of like proving that a probl
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Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean like these videos?
Death grip on Droid X, EVO, Droid Incredible, Nexus One, Galaxy 1, G1, etc.
* Droid X: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-kFc..._with_droid_x/ [metacafe.com]
* Samsung I9000 Galaxy S: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LROTHrTR92k [youtube.com]
* HTC Evo Signal Attenuation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pj2YBYTbag [youtube.com]
* Samsung Galaxy 1:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
* Samsung Galaxy 2:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPCQdYtPihg
* Droid Incredible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaDE941PzQk [youtube.com]
* Droid Incredible (With Network Extender in Room): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEQH...eature=related [youtube.com]
* Nexus One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEIA_lMwqJA [youtube.com]
* Nexus One vs. iPhone (start at 1:29): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvMoV4_C4aA [youtube.com]
* Nexus One: http://posterous.com/getfile/files.p...n_-_iPhone.m4v [posterous.com]
* Nexus One (after Google's update to correct): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2g5J4qPp54 [youtube.com]
* Nexus One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deCkjeHYT-g [youtube.com]
* Android G1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CDaxhjUs9M [youtube.com]
* "Major signal degradation when Nexus One is picked up" (N1 Thread on On this Problem): http://www.google.com/support/forum/...9184c33e&hl=en [google.com]
Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that many of the phones in the links above drop upwards of 30 dBm, I'd have to say your full of shit, as 30 dBm in a mediocre signal area is certainly enough to cause a phone to drop a call, regardless of carrier, make, or model. If you started with -80 dBm, which is decently strong, you could drop to -110 and drop easily. These are not typical gorilla grips either, but just people holding the phone in their hand.
It happens on all phones, and to suddenly claim only Apple branded signal loss is 'evil' is a bit silly.
Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:5, Funny)
Reading omprehension fail! Did I say no other phone drops bars AT ALL?
Only iphone loses signal so much as to drop calls.
Go on - try spinning it again.
This is absolute crap argument, death grip does not cause iPhone to drop calls, it is fully capable of dropping calls without it.
Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:4, Informative)
Reading the article (I know actually reading the article before posting - what's fsck'in wrong with me?) it says some phones were affected by a similar "death grip" - so that's the same, isn't it?
Of course, this is really easy to reproduce because Apple put a line across the area that if covered affects the signal strength - other phones you have to kind of guess. That makes it really easy to reproduce the effect on the iPhone 4, and I suppose easy to avoid (don't cover that area). Other phones it's hard to reproduce, and also hard to avoid (unless you find the "drop spot" and put a marker on it - so you know where not to touch).
It is also true that some phones have far less of an issue (in the case of the Droid where two hands were required, it would be hard to see this as an actual problem as it's actually quite difficult to reproduce and is not likely to happen in practice). So clearly when Steve said this is a problem for the whole industry that wasn't the whole truth - it's an issue, but some phone seem to have it pretty well mitigated.
From what I understand for a lot of phones it isn't covering an side of the phone that manifests this effect; if you have significant contact with the rear of the phone it can cause it. This is quite common. Again, the exact location(s) vary and may mitigate it (like the Droid).
But this doesn't seem at all unique to the iPhone 4, but it isn't quite as "universal" as perhaps Apple would like us the think. It's just something we'd never thought about before.
Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:5, Insightful)
In every phone, it's not "touch this spot and your call is gone", it's "cover the antenna and the signal goes down". Remember that water absorbs microwaves, so your hand (~60% water) will attenuate the signal. Even with the iPhone 4, if you don't touch the exact spot but cover all of the GSM/HSPA antenna, your signal will drop. In my old Nokia E62, I can get a ~15 dBm drop if I cover the whole top of the phone with my hand. Notice that most (non-touchscreen) phones have their antennas on the top because of this: you usually don't hold your phone there, so you won't attenuate the signal. Touchscreen phones are a different beast, because they're made to be used both in portrait and landscape modes; in landscape, you do touch the "top" of the phone. That means you need either a bigger antenna, or two antennas (like the Droid X). A bigger antenna on the bottom is used sometimes, because that's not where you usually hold the phone when in landscape mode. Problems with signal attenuation are very common (and more so with touch phones), but that's not the issue with the iPhone 4.
The issue with the iPhone 4 is that you can introduce a very high level of noise by bridging two separate antennas by touching the phone in a place where you would usually touch it. External antennas very close together are the problem. The noise added is what makes you drop calls, not the signal attenuation (you get so much noise that the phone can't find the signal). No other phones have this problem. Antenna design is one area where there are thousands of very smart people trying to get even the smallest improvements. You'd think someone would have thought about putting the antenna outside the phone on the past 10 years, if it was viable. Apple tried (and with some improvements, it could even become viable some day), and now they realize why nobody did it before.
Apple is trying to make their issue (the basic antenna design) look like the common issue (water absorbs microwaves). There's nothing you can do about signal attenuation, except keeping the antenna as far away from your hand as possible; but Apple could have designed the phone differently, and reduce the possibility to bridge the two antennas. The iPhone 4 problem is nothing like the problems other phones show, despite showing the same symptoms (lower call quality, possibility to drop calls, etc).
Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:4, Informative)
And then he goes on showing EVERY PHONE does that.
I think you must be confused by something? They showed 3 different phone brand/OS combos that by holding in a certain way could loose substantial signal. Yes?
NO - they don't do THAT while holding it THAT WAY.
Parse error...care to restate?
So, yes, he lied and did not accept that iphone was the only phone which did something wrong.
I'm lost...what's the problem? Do you not agree that some phones can lose signal by being held certain ways? What's the lie?
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No, what Jobs said is, "This is the state of the art of modern radio technology. Ya canna change the laws of physics, Captain."
Maybe the iPhone is slightly more susceptible than other designs to this measurable signal attenuation. What's the real-world impact? Anecdotally, it seems pretty trivial.
So what's the problem? Don't like it? Don't buy it.
Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why is the standard response for anything anyone is caught doing is to reply that someone else is doing (insert catch word lie: more|also|worse|longer) than we have.
Imagine you've work with 10 people in one room for the last 3 years. At some point you say or do something that offends somebody else. From then on these people you work with take every little quirk you have and blow it out of proportion and endlessly crack jokes about it. Maybe one day somebody thinks you left the bathroom without washing your hands. Another day one of your neighbors is evicted and through some questionable rationale that was your evil doing, too. Every two weeks or so, a new thing comes up to heckle you about but nothing really sticks. One day, fatefully, you drop a pen. You bend over to pick it up and *Frrpbbtbt*, everybody hears you fart. Then, for the next 22 days, you sit there and listen to fart jokes and comments about how much you stink, how brown your undies are, and how everybody in the world pinches their nose when they around you.
Let's not sit here and pretend like the first words out of your mouth wouldn't be: "Yeah, right, like none of you ever fart."
Re:If everyone jumped off a bridge... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with your analogy, is that farting is natural, unharmful, and cannot be helped.
Lying, cheating, and treating people like shit?
Even if you want to claim it's natural in a competitive, it sure as fuck is harmful and it sure as fuck can be stopped.
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Yeah, but then imagine that you really did shit your britches. Then the first words out of your mouth would be "You're wearing your underwear wrong." Then after three weeks you came out with a bogus video showing how everyone else in the office could shit their britches if they really really squeezed hard in a very unnatural fashion. Then you'd say, "See, everyone shits their britches. This is poopy-britches-gate, but I'll give everyone who asks for it a clothespin, so they don't have to smell the poop that
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Obviously, they meant that the death gripping in one hand it was ok, but on the other hand it dropped, but not as severe as the first. Sort of a six in one hand and 2 dozen in the other. A phone in the hand has the DBm of two in the bush. iPhone there for iAm.
Re:What does this mean: (Score:5, Funny)
A phone in the hand has the DBm of two in the bush. iPhone there for iAm.
None of the phones cited were designed to be stuck in your bush.
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I have a friend who worked in the emergency department in a hospital and she told me there had been cases of women who came in with phones stuck in there.
Apparently the "vibra phone" [gizmodo.com] feature has more uses than one imagines at first.
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Then what is vibrate mode for?
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Re:I think this confirms what Jobs was saying (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I think this confirms what Jobs was saying (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:I think this confirms what Jobs was saying (Score:5, Insightful)
The only reason this is being discussed is Apple pointed out the external antenna.
Yes, but you didn't go all the way. It is being discussed because the design of the external antenna on iPhone4 is such where connecting the miniscule seam on the lower left side with a conductive material (e.g. your hand, keys, etc.) causes dramatic drop in the signal. Touch of a finger, while holding your phone in a perfectly normal way, can cause this.
This is not to be confused with the "death grip" shown in these videos where they are attempting to cover phones' internal antennas with both hands. In fact it's purely coincidental that the "death grip" that may or may not cover the internal antennas (depending on its location) is also connecting the 2 antennas on the iPhone4 with the bottom of your palm.
There is no single "death grip" issue shared between iPhone4 and other phones - this is just what PR Apple used to drag others into the discussion. There are 2 distinct problems:
1. cover internal antenna(s) to "lose" signal
2. touch iPhone in a lower left side to "lose" signal
Some people are saying (2) is way more common and annoying and some are saying it should never have been designed that way. That's why it's being discussed.
That's not to say that it hasn't been discussed enough already. But Apple dragging others into it prolonged it, IMO.