Nokia and RIM Respond To Apple's Antenna Claims 514
awyeah writes "In response to Apple's press conference, where videos of a few devices were shown losing signal bars with a tight grip, RIM and Nokia have both taken shots at Apple. RIM's co-CEOs say that Apple's claims 'appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation.' Meanwhile, Nokia, noting that they are pioneers in antenna design and were the first company to bring to market a phone with an internal antenna, prioritizes 'antenna performance over physical design if they are ever in conflict.'"
Steve and his FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple says the iPhone 4 drops one more call per 100 calls. So only 1%. No big deal. But Stevie left something out. How many calls are dropped per 100? He's good at this game; he didn't say. AT&T claims their dropped call rate is 1.4%. 1.4% + 1% is 2.4%. That's a 70% increase. 70% is quite a bit, especially when the antenna is supposed to be better than the previous generation. Yes, Mr. Jobs, "Antennagate" is real.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
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That's what he said, and there may be some truth to that, but that isn't the point. That information is available on the internet, and with it, we see that the problem is actually much more severe than he made it sound. He knew very well that most people would understand what he said incorrectly, ie, "oh, there are only 1% more dropped calls than with the 3GS."
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
So, you believe a CEO's claims about his own product are necessarily more truthful than "the internet"?
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Re:Steve and his FUD (Score:4, Informative)
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This reminds me of the statistics the UK government used to sell the smoking ban. They said that passive smoking caused a 20% increase in the risk of lung cancer. Which is true. What they didn't mention was that for a non-smoker the risk is about 1 in 1000. So a passive smoker (living with a 40 a day smoker for 20 years) has their risk of lung cancer increase from around 1 in 1000 to around 1.2 in 1000. Obviously this plays off the understanding that a regular smoker has an enormously higher risk (I forget
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I certainly believe nokia's [ubergeek.tv] claim..
"antenna performance over physical design if they are ever in conflict."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If that were literally true, every Nokia user would be carrying around an auto-aiming parabolic antenna 6 feet in diameter and a few hundred pounds of batteries to power the amplifiers for it.
I get what he's trying to communicate - that he believes that choices between aesthetics and performance will be decided in favor of performance. But only within certain constraints. Like a certain sized device, with a certain amount of talk and standby time, in a particular shape, with particular durability requiremen
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You're trolling, right? The heart of the issue has already been explained even if you still fail to accept it - the increase in dropped calls was explained by Jobs in a way that would be favourably misinterpreted as a tiny difference. In reality, the available information (from, GASP, the INTERNET) would suggest it has nearly doubled.
I wonder, whose motivation do you think is stronger to distort the truth in this situation - random slashdot posters who couldn't really give a toss about Apple, or a CEO i
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And you know this how?
Re:Steve and his FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
If he was not allowed to give a critical element of the statistic, he should simply not have used that point at all.
instead, he tried to use half of a statistic to imply something that it doesn't actually mean.
shady business.
Your math has problems (Score:2)
Re:Your math has problems (Score:5, Informative)
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Actually... you seem to either not understand the available facts or math in general. "http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/16/apple-iphone-4-drops-less-than-one-additional-call-per-100-tha/ ). How are you interpreting that?
Re:Your math has problems (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Steve and his FUD (Score:4, Informative)
Apple says the iPhone 4 drops one more call per 100 calls.
How to Lie With Statistics 101:
Fact 1: iPhone4 only drops an additional 1 per 100 calls compared to the competitors.
Fact 2: Millions of calls are made per day using the iPhone v4.
The Lie: Omitting any mention of what a +1% increase in dropped calls really means when applied to millions of calls.
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Not necessarily. If the drop rate for 3GS is as low as 0.4%, that plus "less than 1%" would equal just the average.
Re:Steve and his FUD (Score:4, Informative)
Another funny numbers game Steve played. He claimed only
Re:Steve and his FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, Mr. Jobs, "Antennagate" is real.
NO Just plain and simply NO. I stood by and watched watergate happen and didn't think much about it. When people started talking about climategate I whinced, but Antennagate? It's not funny, it's not witty, it's not original, heck it doesn't even fit with the original use as a suffix for a political scandal.
I hereby suggest that everybody who is caught using "gate" as a suffix is made to go outside on a sunny day, to be pommeled into the ground by the awesome force of photons, or to just get a tan ruining the geek cred of slashdot users forever.
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Meantime, the rest of the world doesn't know what "dropped call" is. It only happens in extreme situations (New Year's Eve celebration, nationwide disasters etc.). Of course one can argue that "quality" of US cell networks is nationwide disaster.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
1 more dropped call per 100 calls. http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/16/apple-iphone-4-drops-less-than-one-additional-call-per-100-tha/ [engadget.com]
Re:scale of the problem (Score:4, Interesting)
You must not use your mobile phone for business.
I've seen people lose a call and crush their phone on the ground in a hail of epithets. Most recently, it was a trader (orange jacket and all) outside of the Mercantile Exchange building. Admittedly, he was probably hopped up on crystal meth at the time, but still he fuckin' snapped from a lost call. I was walking my bike across west Wacker Drive at the time near the Opera House and witnessed the scene with my own eyes. It was not the first time I've seen someone destroy a phone out of fury over a bad connection.
Of course, it may be different with iPhone users. Maybe they respond with "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" when a call is lost.
Re:The way to tackle this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Where there is no demonstrable physical mechanism or repeatable empirical evidence for health effects, the burden of proof should rest firmly with the tinfoil-hat crowd. That's the only way we can move forward as a civilization, scientifically or otherwise. But instead, it's necessary for the wireless manufacturers to prove a negative. What Jobs should have said was, "Even though there is no physical mechanism or explanation for such a phenomenon, we have to assume our device will give you brain cancer if we don't use a really crappy antenna that's designed specifically to send most of the outgoing signal energy into the palm of your hand."
Hello, reality calling. Nokia and RIM don't have Apple's problems, so what you're saying is that Apple has to meet regulations they do not have to meet. Can you back that up with facts? Or did you don your own tin-foil hat?
Falcon
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
From http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys-blog/2010/6/24/apple-iphone-4-antennas.html [antennasys.com]
Of course they did. (Score:5, Insightful)
During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage.
RIM's market are business people and others who really use their phone for calling, email, and other communications. They bought it to do a function.
People bought the iPhone because it was Apple and they wanted to have a stylish phone. They wanted to look marvelous.
If it wasn't the case, then why did the iPhone sell like hot cakes in markets where AT&T was known to have shitty service? Consumer Reports have been tracking that for years.
Re:Of course they did. (Score:5, Informative)
During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage.
RIM's market are business people and others who really use their phone for calling, email, and other communications. They bought it to do a function.
People bought the iPhone because it was Apple and they wanted to have a stylish phone. They wanted to look marvelous.
If it wasn't the case, then why did the iPhone sell like hot cakes in markets where AT&T was known to have shitty service? Consumer Reports have been tracking that for years.
Having used both, I'll have to say that I like having an easy to use phone. The Blackberry that I use for work is crap in this department. An iPhone is more functional for non-work use (video, games, pictures).
I'm not saying that there are people who bought it to be stylish, but you're over-simplifying things.
Re:Of course they did. (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's look at use cases. I am in the (fortunate) position to have an iPhone 3G (my wife's) and a BlackBerry 9000 (mine). The 9000 was chosen based on the keyboard size (over the Bold, etc.).
Phone Usage: BlackBerry. If we are in (say) a parking garage, we use my phone. The iPhone craps out much earlier (and we use the same carrier).
MP3 Playback: BlackBerry. You just plug the phone into a computer and drag the MP3s over. They play. Then again, I have an iPod as well. But, it doesn't really do so well -- the BB is also a "USB stick".
Video Playback: BlackBerry. See MP3 Playback. As well, the BlackBerry will just play Xvid encoded AVI files. Grab it and go. No need to transcode and put into iTunes first.
Instant Messaging: iPhone. The conversation threading is nice
Email: BlackBerry.
Bluetooth: BlackBerry. I can squirt pictures and stuff over to computers or other phones. Just not iPhones.
Storage: BlackBerry. Just a USB drive. Stick in a micro-sd to extend the storage.
Router: iPhone. I think (I haven't seen the feature on the 3G yet). As a road warrior I carry a micro-router along with my BlackBerry.
So, it depends on your use cases. It is interesting that the iPhone wins in a one "business" case (router) and one "home" case (instant messaging). As to "usable" it all depends... If you are a "road warrior", you may not have access to the computer that is the "home computer" that the iPhone depends on. Unless, of course, that is your laptop. (but, what if your laptop is stolen?) Which makes the iPhone pretty much a non-starter for a pure "smartphone" play.
Re:Of course they did. (Score:5, Interesting)
I find it interesting that you ignore web browsing and third party apps, which are pretty much the biggest reasons to get an iphone. Browsing on my father in law's blackberry is *painful* compared to my touch. I won't argue with your specific win/loss analysis much, though (although I'd call mp3 playback a wash).
Re:Of course they did. (Score:4, Insightful)
Still, it should always be function over form. Even if making calls isn't my #1 priority (which it isn't); when I DO make a call, I want it to not be dropped.
VPN for wifi (Score:4, Insightful)
iPhones support VPNs only because so many wifi configurations require a VPN.
Apple knows their target market backwards and forwards, that market excludes business men. A western business phone requires physical a keyboard, multitasking, universal generic cut & paste, clean SIP integration, tethering, exchange support, etc. You don't need any of that shit if your selling a combo phone and games platform like Google and Apple.
Yes, some people like yourself fit the iPhone into their business life, fine, you're a minority.
Btw, I'm very happy that my phone lets me keep multiple pdf viewer windows open simultaneously, but I'm still rather annoyed the phone doesn't support printing.
Quiet nokia! (Score:2, Insightful)
Nokia should STFU. Their N97 GPS antenna design leaves much to be desired.
Re:Quiet nokia! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it's not like they had hundreds of models on the market over decades, most of which without signal issues! Who the hell are they to talk about phones?!
Re:Um, I went many years (Score:5, Insightful)
"...most of which..."
Nokia has made many, many phone models, orders of magnitude more in number than Apple has. I believe his point was that Nokia has much more experience in antenna design than Apple so it isn't wise to completely discount their opinions, especially when their track record overall is pretty good.
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I should think that the GPS antenna design isn't really responsible for dropped calls, though...
In this case it is PEBKAC (Score:2)
PR versus PR (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as no one is arguing over numbers and talking about anecdotes and "priorities" or whatever, this should be maximally annoying...
It must be particularly galling to RIM that a lot of people prefer even an iPhone that drops calls to a Blackberry that doesn't, even when people are given the option to return their iPhone at no cost to them.
Re:PR versus PR (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:PR versus PR (Score:5, Informative)
Who cares how many sell in the weekend ? That's not a measure of anything besides marketing Hype. RIM outsells Apple quarter after quarter. That's all that matters. They have more Market share, I doubt they are jealous of Apple iAnything.
Re:PR versus PR (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:PR versus PR (Score:5, Interesting)
I am struggling to recall RIM selling a million of anything in a weekend.
This is something that always bothers my "reality versus accounting" soul.
See, here's the thing: Apple opens a product up for pre-orders a few weeks before it ships. A bunch of people buy it on pre-order. Then, the first weekend, Apple ships all those orders and, on Monday, Apple announces having sold millions of whatevers the first weekend.
Now, from an accounting perspective, this is accurate. You can't book sales until you ship the item. So even though Apple got money over a few weeks, they couldn't actually put it on their books as income until they shipped out the devices. So when Apple shipped out the devices is when they booked the revenue, all of which occurred that first weekend. Plus whatever they sold in the stores over the weekend. So, from an accounting standpoint, it's accurate--they made the money that first weekend.
However, the reality perspective says that the item was available for sale a few weeks beforehand. If I had a product and I offered it for sale one year before it finally shipped, and I had one person per day buying it, on the day I shipped I could claim that 365 bought it in one day. But realistically, I had one sale per day. Based on past history, I would have a hard time believing that I would have 365 sales on the day after I shipped those 365. It's more likely that I would continue having 1 per day.
Apple releases these numbers to look impressive. And, don't get me wrong, selling a million or so devices in a few weeks is impressive--I've never sold that many things in a few years! But it wasn't "one weekend"--that's an accounting trick.
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Isn't this the same for any product that has pre-orders?
Why is Apple suddenly more evil when other retails and manufacturers have done the same thing for years
No it isn't (Score:3, Interesting)
What you call an accounting trick is normal business practice. You can pre-order every phone you want. Just nobody wants to. THAT says something.
What next, box-office results ain't real because you can only watch the movie when it plays?
Blackberry case problems are different (Score:3, Interesting)
No, you don't need to use a case to make a call with a blackberry, but you do have to use a case if you want to conveniently prevent somebody from making a call from their pocket with one. Historically, Blackberries have had no auto-lock timer, but required being put into the case or hitting a key combination in order to lock the device. I've gotten countless pocket calls from my boss and other folks on my team at work, sometimes several in a row, sometimes during heated discussions that had sensitive com
Re:Blackberry case problems are different (Score:4, Informative)
"but you do have to use a case if you want to conveniently prevent somebody from making a call from their pocket with one."
What bullshit is this? My three year old 8100 Pearl has auto-lock.
Too lazy to RTFM?
Re:PR versus PR (Score:5, Informative)
But can you imagine how it makes Apple feel that so many people still prefer a Blackberry after all the money that Apple has spent marketing its phone? By thinking that one company is more "galled" by people buying it's competitor's product than it's own is anthropomorphizing a corporation in a way that seems peculiar to a certain segment of consumers.
Seriously, I understand fandom (though not of corporations) but I don't understand the attribution of human emotions to legal fictions created in order to make profit while avoiding liability.
Anyway, here in North America, Blackberry's market share is still more than double that of the iPhone, so I doubt RIM is particularly "galled".
Blackberry vs iPhone (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, here in North America, Blackberry's market share is still more than double that of the iPhone, so I doubt RIM is particularly "galled".
From Forbes [forbes.com]: "iPhone Could Overtake BlackBerry Market Share in 2011". iPhone, BlackBerry slip as Android market share surges [fiercemobilecontent.com] tells a different story. Personally I don't care who leads in marketshare as long as there is competition in a relatively free market.
Falcon
Re:PR versus PR (Score:5, Interesting)
First off Apple is making it very difficult to return phones, and I can assure you there are LOTS of people in the Apple stores trying to get the phones fixed and threatening to return them.
How about this interesting story...
I was in the Apple store in the "Domain" in Austin, tx. I went in for a phone exchange because I was instructed to do so by Apple tech support on the "chance" that it would fix my drop call problems (and proximity sensor issues). I had 2 case numbers and Apple made the appointment for the visit themselves.
Well, I get there and spend 60 minutes, 15 minutes waiting for help (past my appt time) and 45 minutes talking to the support person while he went to the back 3 times to "get my replacement phone" only to come back out and say "I just want to make sure you understand that after you exchange your phone you cannot ever return it for a refund" and then being unable to show me anything in writing that states that I would lose my contractual rights to a refund if the phone is exchanges in an attempted repair.
That's right, Apple stores are attempting to decieve customers that they cannot return phones if they are exchanged for repair during their 30 day period. They cannot show anything in writing to this affect (because nothing in writing exists) and when pressured they will simply say "oh I know how the system works and it is simply impossible to return an exchanged phone because the serial numbers change". How interesting. But they cannot explain how that can be possible when the exchange work order shows both the original phones serial and the exchange phones serial"
So those of you that claim that no one wants to return their phones should walk into an Apple store and see what they are doing to keep people from doing so. The intimidation (with a pleasant voice) tactics used to stop customers from doing so (since most customers will try an exchange at least once before refunding) is despicable and probably illegal.
Nokia ftw (Score:3, Funny)
"You're telling us about antennas?"
looks and simplicity over function (Score:4, Insightful)
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a company that prioritizes looks and simplicity
Yeah, usability is great. But I'm afraid that normal people love it. Guess why there are a lot of people who would rather buy iPads instead of netbooks with the awesome touchpad input interface?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you read that wrong. He was saying they don't include many options because they [the options] are too complicated.
Re:Erm... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think he meant to say that user options make a product too complicated.
To paraphrase Bjarne Stroustrup:
"An organisation that treats its users as morons will soon have users that are willing and able to act like morons only."
So the videos are true? (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems they are giving vague answers instead of answering the real question. Steve Jobs played videos [apple.com] where you can see clearly how Blackberrys lose signal depending how you hold them. Are the videos true? If they are, how must I hold a Blackberry to avoid losing signal? If they aren't true, why RIM isn't suing Apple? That is the question I want to see answered.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So the videos are true? (Score:4, Insightful)
Steve Jobs's point wasn't that Nokia and RIM make bad phones or don't know how to design antennas. Watch the video. Jobs wasn't slamming Nokia or RIM. In fact, he went out of his way to say that they make great phones. All Jobs did was to take twenty minutes to put the problem into context for the reporters who've spent a month making it sound like 1) Apple is the only company in the industry with this problem; and 2) the iPhone is a total dog.
His point was that 1) Apple isn't the only company that makes phones that can lose reception when you put your hand on it and he showed the videos to prove it; and 2) if the problem really was as hideous as reporters had made it sound, Apple would be getting a lot more customer complaints and products returns than the data shows. And Jobs backed up his arguments with empirical data.
Personally, I'd like a little empirical data on how many Slashdotters who are slamming Jobs in this thread have actually watched the video. I'd bet the percentage is vanishingly small.
Re:So the videos are true? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that Apple is the only company stupid enough to make the antenna able to be shorted out when you hold it, bridging the antenna. All other phones have completely enclosed antennas that do experience attenuation depending on how you hold them, but nothing to the degree of what Apple's does.
Re:So the videos are true? Please Watch Th (Score:3, Interesting)
Very well said. It's disgusting to see so many /. posts with no basis in fact, just personal bias.
Before someone posts - please inform yourself by watching the video.
Apple has done far more than any other smartphone company ( including the "foreign" ones, like
RIM and Nokia) to make sure everyone who buys an iPhone4 is 100% satisfied including
free bumpers and complete refunds (no restocking fees). Funny how despite all the press
about this very minor issue, the iPhone 4 is Apple's best product yet with virtu
Re:So the videos are true? (Score:4, Informative)
They don't need to give more of a response because while Apple has created a few phones Nokia and RIM have created hundreds of different models
Just fwiw, you've just made as your argument one of the most classical and basic fallacies -- an appeal to authority.
Fallacious fallacies (Score:3, Informative)
Just fwiw, you've just made as your argument one of the most classical and basic fallacies -- an appeal to authority.
Since not all arguments from expert opinion are fallacious, some authorities on logic have taken to labelling this fallacy as "appeal to inappropriate or irrelevant or questionable authority", rather than the traditional name "appeal to authority". For the same reason, I use the name "appeal to misleading authority" to distinguish fallacious from non-fallacious arguments from authority.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/authorit.html [fallacyfiles.org]
Just because you appeal to an authority doesn't make it a fallacy.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Just because you appeal to an authority doesn't make it a fallacy.
The argument that someone has done something more necessarily means they are better at it is a logical fallacy, and the fallacy is appeal to authority. They are an authority because they do it a lot, right? By that logic McDonalds should build a better burger. Saying that RIM and Nokia are better at making phones because they've done it more times is false. You can hire experience.
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Well if they are true, I can't replicate it. My Blackberry for sure has signal variations based on its position. I'm quite sure my body interferes with it too, no way it can't. However it doesn't drop calls when I hold it. I grip with the "whole hand wraparound" method all the time, just how I hold the thing. It always seems to work.
As for a suit, RIM might but then again that's a pain in the ass. Lots of money involved and nothing might get decided in the end. I mean if Apple can show a case where they are
Re:So the videos are true? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't have an iPhone 4 nor at the moment a blackberry, but when you say:
Well if they are true, I can't replicate it. My Blackberry for sure has signal variations based on its position. I'm quite sure my body interferes with it too, no way it can't. However it doesn't drop calls when I hold it. I grip with the "whole hand wraparound" method all the time, just how I hold the thing. It always seems to work.
It sounds an awful lot like what many iPhone 4 users have said (including friends I've seen with an iphone4 personally, and, eg, the Anandtech review). If you're in a good reception area, the deathgrip makes you lose some signal but does not automatically drop the call. If you're in a low reception area, you can go all the way down and drop a call.
But if you're in a sold 5-bar area with your blackberry OR iphone, it's very possible that even a substantial drop in reception won't move you from 5 bars.
Also, FWIW with the 4.0.1 firmware I get a solid 1 bar with my iPhone 3gs in my house. I used to occasionally get up to 4 and it would move between 3-4 and then drop down to 1. It's clear I'm in a low reception area. The new firmware seems to do a MUCH better job of properly relaying this information.
Re:So the videos are true? (Score:5, Funny)
What videos? All I see is "Get Quicktime".
Re:So the videos are true? (Score:4, Funny)
What videos? All I see is "Get Quicktime".
You're holding it wrong.
It's pretty simple. (Score:5, Informative)
Consumer report couldn't have illustrated it simpler. You put your finger *here* and the signal strength drops by 15 to 20% or whatever the number was.
There really isn't much mystery. If the signal is strong, then 20% isn't going to change anything. But people generally move around in the same areas, so if your activites are concentrated in a dodgy signal area, that means your calls could go from a 25% drop rate to completely unusable.
Re:It's pretty simple. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a magazine in the US, consumerreports.org. They perform independent product testing. The magazine is fully subscriber supported and (as far as I know) doesn't accept any advertising. They don't event accept free products for testing - they go out and buy them retail.
So, when they review a product, I tend to listen. Sometimes they aren't as indepth as you'd like, but that is visible because they also detail their testing methodologies.
There are various other organisations that follow the same format in other countries. I don't know if they are all affiliated. Here in NZ, there is consumer.org.nz.
Nokia and RIM Respond To Apple's Antenna Claims (Score:5, Interesting)
Och! This hits the nail on the head. The original Apple Macintosh used to over heat because it did not have a fan! Why did it not have a fan, because Jobs wanted a quiet machine.
To be far though the case was designed to keep the machine cool and it worked, but there was a problem with the hardware running hotter than it should. Even the circuit board/mother board (don't flame me if I got the terminology wrong I'm no computer engineer) had to be redesigned to look pretty because Jobs wanted it that way. The man has form!
Re:Nokia and RIM Respond To Apple's Antenna Claims (Score:4, Insightful)
It's true that Apple ranks style very high and Nokia are noted for their antenna skills.
However I am not convinced that Nokia "prioritizes 'antenna performance over physical design if they are ever in conflict.'" It's my understanding that the old rod-style antennas perform better than the now common internal antennas. The antennas disappeared into the phone to gain style points, not to improve overall reception.
Perhaps an RF engineer could comment?
Re:Nokia and RIM Respond To Apple's Antenna Claims (Score:5, Informative)
The antennas disappeared into the phone to gain style points, not to improve overall reception. Perhaps an RF engineer could comment?
Primarily you need a manufacturing engineer to comment on this. External antennas are large, expensive to make, and they tend to break, and you must depend on the customer to extend them (if they are extendable.) But from the RF point of view, a well designed and well matched internal antenna is not any worse than an external one. The technology of antennas has also improved, CST came up with specialized simulators and models, new LNAs are now available to increase sensitivity, and so on.
Re:Nokia and RIM Respond To Apple's Antenna Claims (Score:5, Informative)
As a person who was completely obsessed with maintaining cell reception, I did a ton of testing of cell phones on Verizon. I can say that the Nokias were always the best at holding calls in fringe areas, even the models with internal antennas like the 6236i. All the Nokias I owned would actually gain very little signal strength (1-2db) by extending their antenna. I read that part of their design was to be able to use the external antenna internally or externally. 2nd best was usually Motorola. There were definitely times where other Verizon users had to borrow my phone to maintain a call. When Nokias were dropped by Verizon I would go pick up used ones as backups. All in all, I owned 1 3589i, 3 6015i, and a 6236i, every single candybar style Nokia that Verizon carried near the end.
Testing done by others on Sprint would place the Nokias as the best followed by Sanyo. This was confirmed by many users on howardforums and by an internal Sprint engineer that had access to call drop data.
Re:Nokia and RIM Respond To Apple's Antenna Claims (Score:5, Informative)
My memory may be flawed, so don't crucify me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is what I have seen in the past.
Won't make a difference (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally don't believe that it'll make one difference how many calls the iPhone4 drops; people will still buy the phone. The "cool factor" outweighs the ability to make a phone call. Go back and look at the reviews of the original iPhone, it was always inferior to the other phones on the market, but people stood in lines for hours to buy one.
I have ATT, but with a Samsung Blackjack 1. It's ancient by today's smart phone standards, and I don't get any more dropped calls than anybody else I know. Funny though that we always say iPhone dropped calls are an ATT problem, not an Apple problem. Even now, we've got a million excuses, but when it comes down to it and a call is dropped people blame the carrier.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This is just anecdotal evidence of course, but I've never had my iPhone 3G drop a call. Not once. It's only been used in Denmark and Norway, though.
But - and this is rather interesting - my previous provider was having some trouble, where suddenly I couldn't make calls at all or use data. When I switched to an older phone (Sony-Ericsson W810i) I could eventually get a lock on the signal, but data was still a no go. Making calls was a hit and miss affair. When I switched to an old black/white Nokia (1112 I b
HTC Benelux response (Score:5, Interesting)
Mark Moons of HTC Benelux posted his response to twitter.
source: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/68622/mobieltjesmakers-reageren-fel-op-antennevergelijking-van-apple.html [tweakers.net]
( the comment threads there are a lovely Apple vs The World whinefest )
Translated (Google fails due to colloquial word usage)
"Is Jobs yacking about the reception on competing devices to justify his own design error? I must seeing it wrong*"
( * "I must be misinterpreting", though that would typically be written as "Ik zal het wel verkeerd begrijpen")
http://twitter.com/markmoons/status/18702074270 [twitter.com]
"....ok, stopped following that fruitlet's sobstory.... got better things to do... he's denigrating the industry."
http://twitter.com/markmoons/status/18702370046 [twitter.com]
damage controle (Score:4, Interesting)
one theory (Score:2, Interesting)
one theory says that since iPhone4 makes antenna design, especially the gap, so prominent, it is far easier for people to correlate signal quality with hand position.
on other phones, even if the same problem exists, it is very difficult for people to discover, because the antenna is internal. drop of signal is so common, you just won't think too much about it.
the lesson is, if you have a design flaw, obfuscate it so that people can't easily identify the cause.
Nokia 8210 (Score:2)
I had a Nokia 8210 a long time ago. Granted it's ancient history, but that phone was definitely sensitive to how you held it. If you touched the top of the phone, the signal strength dropped dramatically. Haven't had a Nokia since.
I'm just sayin'... I've experienced similar antenna issues in other brands... looking at you, Nokia.
about Nokia's responce (Score:3, Funny)
"As you would expect from a company focused on connecting people, we prioritize antenna performance over physical design if they are ever in conflict."
Judging by how Nokia phones look, must be a lot of conflicts.
Nokia video (Score:3, Informative)
A Nokia E71 user posted this [youtube.com] a month ago. And this is with a microcell nearby.
Get your own house in order before complaining about Apple airing your dirty laundry.
(FTR, I'm an E71 owner)
that's a different effect (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, you can produce signal drop by holding phones in a certain way. Usually, that's not because you cover the antenna, it's because you get standing waves. That's particularly bad if you have a microcell sitting in your home. No phone can receive anything where there isn't a signal, and there are just places where there isn't a signal. At cell phone signal frequencies, moving 10-30 cm can get you from full signal strength to nothing. That has nothing to do with antenna issues. The iPhone antenna problem is a problem that exists on top of these normal effects and causes additional signal loss.
That's why all cell phone can experience signal loss depending on how you hold them, and why Apple can make those videos. But that's not a reasonable test. The CR test is what you need to do: you need to firmly fix the phone in space, and then just touch the case in different places. The iPhone signal strength drops, the signal strength on other phones remains essentially unaffected.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The end effect is the same: with either phone I have to hold it a certain way in low signal areas to prevent the call from dropping.
No, the end effect is not the same: the iPhone 4 has a 1% higher dropped call rate than a similar phone (3GS) with an internal antenna and worse radio (1% is a pretty big increase, and most of the usual dropped calls are from moving vehicles).
That's because in addition to the usual ways of losing signal, the iPhone 4 has a new one. CR shows you what it is.
What a whiner (Score:5, Informative)
What a whiner and complainer. He's using the press conference to put down his competitors, misrepresent his own company, and lying about the antenna problem.
Lying? He's claiming that all the phones behave the same way, but doesn't show any data. CR compared these phones under controlled conditions.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Lying? He's claiming that all the phones behave the same way, but doesn't show any data.
He showed videos of precisely the same kind of signal loss that people have been complaining about, happening with three other phones, caused just by holding them in a particular way. He provided the best statistics AT&T would allow him to provide publicly, and acknowledged that the data does show the iPhone 4 drops calls more often than the iPhone 3GS. He also provided data about their return rate so far, and how many people have called Apple's tech support about this issue. What data are you lookin
Re:Because the competition never lies, right. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, we don't need any more evidence; Steve gave us all the evidence we need yesterday that there is a serious problem with iPhone 4's antenna. It drops nearly twice as many calls as the 3GS. It required a bit more research since Steve didn't tell us the baseline for how many calls the 3GS drops per 100, but based on some AT&T statements in the past, it's probably between 1 and 2%, meaning that 1 additional dropped call per 100 *calls* is a good 50 to 100% increase.
Re:Because the competition never lies, right. (Score:4, Funny)
This is a bit like being stuck on the roadside arguing with your girlfriend about how much gas you put in the tank at the last stop: "We had half a gallon left, and I put in half a gallon! I INCREASED OUR FUEL BY 100%!"
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not at all, no. Dropped calls tend to affect people in certain areas more than they affect others. In this case it also affects people without bumpers more than people with them, and people who don't know to avoid the death point more than people who know about it. This means that it's likely that certain people are dropping *many* more calls than they otherwise would.
Re: (Score:2)
This assertion is not captured in the statistic. It's merely truthy unless you can find support for it.
Watch your weasel words: "tend to," "likely."
Re: (Score:2)
Your argument kind of makes sense until you look at their respective track record [wikipedia.org]. Of course they've had some bad models, but for all intents and purposes, that's within the error margin in this discussion.
This is like Santa Claus mocking their logistics.
Re:Video Proof (Score:5, Insightful)
From engadget's transcript:
"10:43AM Ryan from gdgt: You showed people almost covering the entire phone in their hand, but on the iPhone 4 it can happen with just a touch. Can you explain that difference?
Bob: When you touch the phone, you put yourself between the signal and your phone, so when you touch that spot you can attenuate the signal, and if you grip it with your whole hand, you can attenuate it even more. We don't build phones with an antenna on top...
Hmm, that didn't really sound like an answer to us."
No matter how much you complain about the bad press Apple has been getting lately, it is certainly deserved. The iPhone 4 antenna issue is *not* the same issue that other phones experience, and is much more severe.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
Bullshit. I am putting my hand on that spot and NOTHING HAPPENS.
Apple hopes that most of the iPhone 4 sucke^W users live and work in areas with great AT&T coverage. Sure, if you sit under the tower you will see no problem. Keep the phone. Then drive someplace with poorer coverage (easy to find on the AT&T network - I have an AT&T phone myself) and get zero bars. The phone is not returnable any more, so you are stuck. Unless, of course, you want to buy a redesigned iPhone 4.1, for full price,
Re:Video Proof (Score:5, Informative)
Hand in your geek card. You have no grasp of the issue and it shows. Anand performed tests and the iPhone 4 loses 20 db of signal when lightly touched in the proper spot (lower left gap between antennas). 20 dbs might not result in a visible result on the bar display seeing how 5 bars is larger than that.
What has Slashdot become that we now have to deal with ignorant mass-consumers instead of just geeks with actual curiosity for researching and understanding ?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Bullshit. I am putting my hand on that spot and NOTHING HAPPENS. Problem? No, I don't see it. Maybe some people do, but it's not severe. Certainly doesn't happen to most everyone or there would be TONS of these phones being returned.
But that's been the exact argument about the iPhone4 bug...it only really seems to affect people who both don't have a case and are in poor reception areas. Every iPhone user I know personally has a case, which I would presume would somewhat limit the problem. Many iPhone users (myself included) do also happen to be in poor reception areas unfortunately... The bug also seems to disproportionately affect left-handed people.
If you live in a GOOD reception area with the iPhone4, the death grip might make you n
Re:Video Proof (Score:5, Funny)
My fiancé's ICrap4 drops calls all day long while at home
Well your imaginary fiancé with the imaginary iPhone 4 is in real luck; she can return it no questions asked to Apple.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As always any Iphone users will vehemently deny that anything is wrong with their beloved device.
Who exactly has claimed this?
Though it may be true that other phones have similar issues. I for one do not believe they are as bad as the Iphone 4.
See also: Given Truth, the Misinformed Believe Lies More [slashdot.org]
Another funny tidbit, the Iphone 4G(eneration) is only a 3g phone. =]
I think you're being confused by something -- the name of the phone is "iPhone 4" -- note the lowercase i and no G (you mistakenly added the G in). It's called this because it's the 4th iphone. Difficult, I know =]
In my personal anyone with an Iphone will call you crazy should you decide to switch to a different device.
I'm not sure what you mean, but in all of these conversations, the only people I see insulting other people for their choice in phones are non-iphone users. Could you point me to some example?
Re:Ha ha ha (Score:5, Insightful)
Well of course it's possible to interfere with the antenna from a phone. The issue here is how easy it is to do (accidentally) and how severe the effect is.
To use a car analogy, this is like if Lexus [autoblog.com] made an SUV that was prone to oversteer and rollovers during normal driving, and their response [autoblog.com] (instead of a recall) was "yeah well you can make any SUV roll over! It's a universal problem! See!" followed by a professional driver performing crazy stunts in order to flip some other manufacturers vehicle.
One is likely to happen accidentally, and one is much less so.
Re:Where's your hard data? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Did you watch the press conference?"
It looks like Mr. Jobs succeeded. The entire thing was full of misleading "facts." Look up at other discussions in this thread.
Re:Where's your hard data? (Score:5, Insightful)
It looks like Mr. Jobs succeeded. The entire thing was full of misleading "facts." Look up at other discussions in this thread.
To quote Wikipedia on "disinformation":
Unlike traditional propaganda and Big Lie techniques designed to engage emotional support, disinformation is designed to manipulate the audience at the rational level by either discrediting conflicting information or supporting false conclusions.
Jobs hit all the right notes on both disinformation, and traditional propaganda in the span of one short presentation.
Emotional support: [talking to the press] "we make so many great products, I thought you guys trust us"; "we maybe shouldn't take it personally, but we do, and it really hurts us"; "we have worked out asses off to satisfy every last customer"
At rational level he tweaked and made those antenna video demos (also see http://www.apple.com/antenna/ [apple.com]. He used reframing techniques to make the problem appear common in the industry, blurring the differences between the iPhone specific antenna issues and general signal attenuation.
I don't believe a word Jobs says. He has a long history of using these techniques to sell and brand his company, it's how the "reality distortion field" joke came to be.
But you gotta admit: he's so good at it, even when it's apparent he's tweaking facts and inserting little lies here and there, it's hard not to be sympathetic to his side. Which may be largely why he succeeds, even if many won't take his presentations at face value.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Basically, while the maximum reception for an external antenna may be greater than the maximum reception for an internal antenna, the range of values for reception on the external anten