Apple Censors Consumer Report iPhone4 Discussions 588
An anonymous reader writes "Apple has done it again. All threads about Consumer Report's iPhone4 non-recommendation are removed or deleted.
If it happened once, maybe you'd say it was a glitch. But what if it happened twice? Three times? Four times, five, six?"
Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Funny)
If it happened once, maybe you'd say it was a glitch. But what if it happened twice? Three times? Four times, five, six?
Keep it up until your 32,768th post when they'll regret using a signed short int for the NUM_POSTS_CENSORED value in your forum profile.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
If someone says something, and you remove it, that's censorship. I'm not saying Apple isn't within their rights to censor their own website, but there's no question that it is censorship.
Think different indeed.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple has no right to censor people for speaking their minds under these circumstances.
Actually, it is well within it's rights to censor people posting on its bulletin board. Now, if Apple tries to get a restraining order against Consumer Reports or against people posting on Slashdot, then no, it is not within its rights. Again, I repeat, Apple is 100% within its rights to censor people posting on its forum. Doesn't mean it isn't unfair in some way, but still within it's rights.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
We already determined that. NOBODY here has said that what Apple did wasn't within its rights. We didn't say they have broken any law, or stepped into anyones rights.
We said they censored, and other people cam saying "That's not censorship because it is their own website" and providing ridiculous examples like "If someone draws on your car and you remove it, is it censorship too?".
Censorship is any selective restriction of what you can say on a certain medium. Selective is the key there. If I invite everyone to write on my car, that's not censorship. If I don't want anyone writing on my car, and I forbid car-writing on cars I won, that's not censorship either. If I invite people to write on my car, then I delete all of those things and paint it over, it is not censorship. If I invite people to write on my car freely, and then selectively erase some of the stuff written to leave only the stuff I agree with, that's censorship.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:4, Insightful)
So if someone draws "motherf*cker" on your car and you are getting it removed, it is censorship? Don't you think your definition is a bit broad?
That depends on whether his car was represented as a forum where one can post messages, complete with text boxes where one can type in a comment and click "Submit" or similar. I'm guessing his car doesn't fit that description, so no, that'd be the removal of vandalism, not the censorship of speech. It'd be easier to continue this discussion if you don't deliberately act obtuse.
Apple had something to hide and because it was their own site they were successfully able to remove it in an attempt to hide it. That's really all there is to this. If their Web site and/or customer service staff had attributes like grace, dignity, or self-respect then they would write a helpful and professionally-worded response to any customer complaints and criticisms instead of censoring them.
It's like that saying "if you want to see what sort of character a man has, look at how he treats his subordinates or other people he's not required to be nice to." Likewise, if you want to see how honest a company really is, look at how it handles dissent on a forum it controls. What a shame that Apple failed this one so badly. They could have used such discussion threads as an opportunity to show that they listen to their customers and use their feedback to improve their products. That would have been respectable. Instead we get this authoritarian "because we can" garbage in an attempt to cover something up.
It's disgraceful. I am not a customer of Apple but if I were considering doing business with them, this would have made me reconsider.
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Just as freedom of speech protects the content on the speech but not the means of delivery (eg. throwing a brick with a message into a window is not protected speech), censorship is removing speech because of the content and not because of the means of delivery. For example:
-slashdot.org closing itself down would not be censorship, since the removal is done because hosting is getting too expensive, something which is inherent in the act of posting messages on the internet.
-You cleaning your car is not censo
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I'd put it in the "bad, but should not be illegal" category.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
It's only censorship when the government does it.
Funny, my dictionary does not include the word "government" in its definition of "censorship."
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Funny)
That's because the government had it taken out.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Informative)
In the Wiki article you cited:
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It's only censorship when the government does it.
No, it's only government censorship when the government does it.
There are plenty of other kinds of censorship, but whether they are appropriate and our reaction to them varies with who or what is involved. Ever heard of self-censorship? [wikipedia.org] Or the Index Librorum Prohibitorum? [wikipedia.org]
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>>>I had a very tasty pig murdered for my Cuban sandwich just yesterday. Strange, but I don't feel guilty about it.
I executed some wheat, sugar cane, and coconuts, and baked their carcasses into a donut. I don't feel guilty about murdering these things either. It's either eat or die.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree as long as that person has innocent intent. Consumer Reports clearly created this article to sell copies rather than push factual information. Also, the reality is that a good amount of this type of "information" that was on the newsgroups was being put there by marketing firms who are being paid to push a certain agenda. The article "Is the Iphone 4 Apple's Vista" comes to mind here...
Lets cut to the chase... If Apple is so concerned about negative information on the iPhone 4, do you honestly think that there would be a 3 week lead time on shipping the of the phone? No, they would not. Also, the antenna issue is completely overblown, and I am sure Consumer Reports knows this internally...
Wow that must be great Kool-Aid. Clearly, a review that essentially says "We love this phone, but we can't recommend it until Apple fixes it so it can actually make phone calls." can only be a slanted hack-job to drive up circulation. Other than that one important detail, they all but gush over the greatness of the iPhone4. At this point, can you even remember what it was like to have a relationship with reality?
Cue the obligatory Penny Arcade "I'm the guy who gives hand jobs to Steve Jobs" strip. Seriously.
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CR did mention work-arounds, but there's a lot of phones on the market (i.e., basically all of them including earlier iPhones) that don't need one to perform their most basic function.
I think it's fair to call that a sticking point -- if they thought the new Lexus was the greatest car ever but sometimes the brakes didn't work unless you slapped some duct tape on it, I'd expect them to withhold recommending that, too.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
A better analogy would be that the Lexus didn't come with a cup-holder, but you can purchase an after-market one for $30. It's not a show stopper because there is a workaround. If the iPhone antenna did not improve reception by adding a case, then it would be a show stopper.
With all due respect, no, that is not a better analogy.
The primary function of a phone is to make phone calls.
The primary function of a car is not to hold my Mountain Dew.
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"The primary function of a phone is to make phone calls."
Which the iPhone 4 does quite well, unless you hold the bottom left corner.
The issue is a real one, but it doesn't render the phone useless. You just can't hold it on one corner, unless you put your phone into a phone case (which is what most people do with expensive phones).
Re:Look it up (Score:5, Insightful)
The multiple posts about an external magazine review have been removed because discussing magazine articles is offtopic for a tech support board, just as discussing the latest Huffington Post article on Angelina Jolie is offtopic.
So, a magazine article about the iPhone is off-topic in a tech support board dedicated to the iPhone?
Are you saying this with a straight face?
Re:Look it up (Score:4, Funny)
a magazine article about the iPhone is off-topic in a tech support board dedicated to the iPhone?
Here's probably what happened:
iPhone customer: Yeah, reception sucks on my new iPhone 4.
AppleGeek: No it doesn't, I bet you're holding it with your hands? You're doing it wrong.
iPhone customer: Uh, there's a bunch of threads on the subject, many of us are having the same issue.
AppleGeek: They're doing it wrong too.
iPhone customer: There's even an article in Consumer Report that mentions it! Here's the link -->
AppleGeek: *pulls out the ban-hammer*
iPhone customer, having a half-caf decaf soy mocha latte with a lemon twaist at Le Expensive Coffee: Where'd my thread go?
*Bonus points to whoever gets the "lemon twaist" reference.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Funny)
I'm pretty sure there is a clause allowing them to "moderate" according to whatever values they want.
So it's like 4chan then?
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Informative)
Try it some time. I picketed a computer store that took a $300 deposit on a $3,000 computer, with a promised delivery date, missed the date, then admitted they couldn't deliver it and wanted to make substitutions, and wouldn't refund the money. I handed out flyers to every customer who walked in the door. They called the cops. I told the cops I was exercising my constitutional right to free speech and wasn't impeding people from entering or exiting. They called their supervisor - who turned out to have had a similar bad experience with that store. Got the refund within the hour.
Moral of the story - don't treat your customers like filth and they won't have cause to display YOUR filth in front of your store.
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But I guess it would have been their right to remove a flyer you would have stuck in the inside of the shop door, doesn't it? Your example works backwards it seems.
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So... I don't want to sound like an Apple fanboy, but nobody ever said that the Apple forums on Apple's website are a place of free speech, right? I haven't read the terms & conditions of course, but I'm pretty sure there is a clause allowing them to "moderate" according to whatever values they want. AFAIK, they don't censor all the forums on the web...
So how is this censorship?
I mean, it sounds reasonable to prevent my angry customers from displaying all their filth on the front of my shop doesn't it?
A
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Just because Apple is allowed to censor the forums doesn't mean when they do it it's not censorship. It just means you knew they could do it. I don't think the argument here is that they couldn't do it, but that they shouldn't do it.
Angry customers are free to picket and protest in front of your shop.
Class action lawsuits are more involved than just "my product is crap." Usually it's a situation where you cannot return the product. For example, the possible class action against Sony for removing 3rd party O
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its apple avoiding people from seeing facts.
It's not about apple's apt censorship of free speech, it's that taking such actions are entirely unethical and wholly inappropriate.
This would be like saying "hey, your car is prone to blowing up, but you don't need to know about that. come buy it!".
It'd actually do them better on their reputation to allow there to be a thread on it.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right in that Apple is free to moderate their boards however they wish. But you are missing the point. Image is very important to Apple. They are trying to keep "the Image" intact. But ultimately Apple is tarnishing "the Image". They are trying to control information in a very Orwellian way (i.e. "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."). And what makes it very damning and hugely ironic, is that Apple is turning into the very thing they fought against in their very first Macintosh Commercial.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right in that Apple is free to moderate their boards however they wish. But you are missing the point. Image is very important to Apple. They are trying to keep "the Image" intact. But ultimately Apple is tarnishing "the Image". They are trying to control information in a very Orwellian way (i.e. "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."). And what makes it very damning and hugely ironic, is that Apple is turning into the very thing they fought against in their very first Macintosh Commercial.
Well, if you also read the other Orwell story, Animal Farm, it's not really all that ironic. In fact, with their huge increase in wealth and power, it was probably inevitable.
Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
So... I don't want to sound like an Apple fanboy, but nobody ever said that the Apple forums on Apple's website are a place of free speech, right? I haven't read the terms & conditions of course, but I'm pretty sure there is a clause allowing them to "moderate" according to whatever values they want. AFAIK, they don't censor all the forums on the web...
So how is this censorship?
It certainly fits one of the definitions of censorship. You end up in a tricky area. A restaurant can choose not to serve hard liquor or beer and wine. That's no problem, you can always go to another one that does. If the government prevents anyone from doing it, that's where you have a dry county. But it's not national prohibition, people just go to the next county over to get their beer. I think the whole dry county thing is silly but it is, strictly speaking to the letter of the law, legal.
Apple's actions are corporate censorship. Not illegal but simply awful PR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship [wikipedia.org]
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Re:Zapp Brannigan's Reporting Strategy (Score:5, Informative)
I RTFBingCache of the removed posts, and there was nothing useful there. Yes, it pointed to the consumer reports article, but after that there was nothing but trolling.
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If Apple really can't stand people poking fun at them when they screw up, perhaps they should stop being so fucking secretive and start doing some proper testing in the real world.
They were gonna do that, but unfortunately the guy who was supposed to carry out those tests lost his iPhone in a bar...
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Sure it matters. It's hardly wrong to censor posts that violate the terms of use for a message board. In this case, term #2(3) [apple.com] says that posts should be either technical questions, solutions, or constructive feedback about a product. I suspect many of the threads were nothing but whining, which is neither constructive feedback nor a technical question or answer....
The front page of a message board is a finite resource. People trying to
Freedom from pron, criticism, open debate (Score:5, Funny)
Yeh, when Jobs said his control over every Apple-user's computing was about "freedom from porn", we could have guessed that "porn" was just being dragged up as a convenient excuse.
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Yeh, when Jobs said his control over every Apple-user's computing was about "freedom from porn", we could have guessed that "porn" was just being dragged up as a convenient excuse.
I don't know, when you see how excited some slashotters get about anti-Apple or anti-Microsoft news it looks like they are about to cream themselves.
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I think there's a lot of truth in this. It's interesting that as Apple has become more and more visible in the mainstream this has diminished. Maybe it's about "the underdog" and not Apple specifically.
I'd wager their extreme dominance of
Re:Freedom from pron, criticism, open debate (Score:4, Funny)
Well, now this is freedom from having complications in your decision to by the revolutionary new iPhone!
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Somebody ought to laugh at Jobs with the spoof of that 1984 commercial, featuring him on the screen.
But this is what people want (Score:3, Insightful)
They want a cool, sharp, designed world where everything is taken care of, by the caring giant that is Steve Jobs. He cares. He makes the world a better place. You don't have to worry about it.
Didn't someone write a book about that?
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They want a cool, sharp, designed world where everything is taken care of, by the caring giant that is Steve Jobs. He cares. He makes the world a better place. You don't have to worry about it.
Didn't someone write a book about that?
Indeed. They wrote a series of books. [wikipedia.org]
It's logical (Score:4, Funny)
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Well, that is what you do with bad apples, isn't it?
Bad apples, broken windows or dead penguins, ... I don't care which it is, I chuck them all into the bin.
Apple fanbois will love it (Score:5, Insightful)
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s/unnecessary/obvious/
Re:Apple fanbois will love it (Score:4, Interesting)
We don't have to take criticism... (Score:4, Insightful)
...we're Apple! Now shut up and buy this overpriced device that is marginally better than the more expensive one you bought last year!
Get over it and by a bumper you cry babies! (Score:5, Funny)
Really you just paid $299 for your phone. You pay goodness knows how much a month for your 2 GB capped data plan. Just suck it up and buy the $30 bumper! what is the big deal!
(This message was sent from my Android phone on the Sprint network).
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! what is the big deal! (This message was sent from my Android phone on the Sprint network).
The big deal is that a person should have a reasonable expectation that a $300 device would work as it should, without having to spend another $30 to fix what shouldn't need fixing.
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Methinks your /sarcasm sensor needs recalibrated.
Or, in Slashdot terms...
WOOSH!
Re:Get over it and by a bumper you cry babies! (Score:4, Funny)
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The deal is that the phone is defective in the way it is sold.
What I find the most amazing thing in this whole story is how so many blogs/"news" sites didn't dare to call apple on it wrt the iphone4 antenna. Engadget, cnet all of them just gave the defective phone a stupidly high rating. Now that the cat is out of the bag they will all back-pedal on it.
Then there are the folks like you under the reasoning: "you bought a luxury phone that is defective by design, you were already ripped off, what are 30 bucks
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wow....
Well then maybe Apple should give you the bumper to fix the problem rather than charging $30 for a gloried rubber band?
Just maybe?
To think that this is the company..... (Score:5, Insightful)
... That once claimed that 1984 wouldn't be like 1984.
Re:To think that this is the company..... (Score:5, Insightful)
They never said that 2010 wouldn't be like 1984.
Re:To think that this is the company..... (Score:5, Funny)
Touche.
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You spelt touchy wrong
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That's unfair, give them credit for great forward thinking; on the timescale of around 3 decades, it would seem. You don't see that too often from corps nowadays.
Re:To think that this is the company..... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's always kinda funny to see how they've become what that classic TV spot wanted to rebel against.
And after years of using that Microsoft Borg logo we really need an Apple Borg logo as well.
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I think an Apple Lemming logo would be more appropriate. The Borg assimilated people by force - people didn't really want to become borg. Many people don't really want to use microsoft products, but must due to various factors, such as work.
On the other hand, people who use Apple products generally do so because they want to use Apple products, even if they're slowly assimilating into a computing culture that they
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... That once claimed that 1984 wouldn't be like 1984.
Was it?
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There is truth in that, they were off by nearly two decades!
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Re:To think that this is the company..... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a perfect example of doublethink. Remember how Apple said there would be no multitasking, no native apps because they're stupid and iPhone is perfect without them?
The reality distortion field is weak in comparison because it says "Apple is right, if you disagree, you don't understand our awesomeness" while doublethink allows Apple to contradict themselves and get away with it.
Usenet (Score:2)
Just use Usenet
Apple is About Freedom! (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is about freedom. Freedom from porn. Freedom from criticism. Freedom from competition. Freedom from objective discussions. Freedom from the truth.
Apple little world is looking more like 1984 every day.
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True. It doesn't matter what flavor the Kool-Aid is, as long as it's in a shiny, black pitcher.
Hey Apple fanboys... (Score:5, Insightful)
...How do you explain this? Sadly, these fanboys will be outside Apple stores a few years down the road to buy the 'latest' and 'greatest' Apple product of the time...even when it's riddled with obvious defects like the iPhone 4.
After all no one in the industry cares more about the customer experience better than Apple. Right?
Hard to know if the posts violated the ToS (Score:5, Informative)
It's hard to know if this is censorship or if they just violated the terms of service and hatebois are flying off the handle. There are still lots [apple.com] of [apple.com] posts [apple.com] about [apple.com] the [apple.com] consumer [apple.com] reports [apple.com] unrecommendation [apple.com] on discussions.apple.com:
http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?search=Go&q=consumer+reports [apple.com]
Still, if it's true it wouldn't be the first time Apple flew off the handle with the censorship (remember the Ulysses app flap [wired.com]?).
Re:Hard to know if the posts violated the ToS (Score:4, Informative)
I am guessing marketing dept intern....
Implosion (Score:2)
Even though I'm a Windows user, it always gives me a wry smile when Linux users say what fun it is to observe all the Windows problems (virii, exploits, etc) from a safe distance.
Now, as an ex-Apple customer, now happily using an HTC Desire, I can say that it's great fun watching Apple implode, from a safe distance.
I don't wish them any ill-will. My preference would be for them to take an honesty pill, start treating their customers with some respect, and turn the whole sorry situation around. But they aren
Antennas and Cradles (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh the irony!... (Score:2, Interesting)
We have created for the first time in all history a garden of pure ideology, where each worker may bloom, secure from the pests of any contradictory true thoughts.
Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth.
We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause.
Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion.
We shal
No... (Score:4, Funny)
No... they're posting it wrong.
New Logo Please (Score:5, Interesting)
We need a new logo on /. for Apple. No more with the company logo. We need Steve Borg or something similar.
Re:New Logo Please (Score:5, Funny)
Take a look in the Apple support forums, please (Score:5, Informative)
So? (Score:3, Insightful)
If they were performing this action or disrupting the conversation someplace other than their own property, that would be a huge!
this is SOP for Apple (Score:4, Informative)
This is SOP for Apple.
When Airport Express units started dropping like flies, all reports about the problem were deleted from their forums.
They don't like criticism of their products, true or not.
Holy crap! (Score:4, Funny)
The real news here is that they actually paid attention to something that was said in their support forums. :-p
why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Streisand effect.. I never heard of the review until they made such a stink trying to keep me from hearing about the review.
Re:It is their site. (Score:5, Interesting)
Wait wait wait...a company is quelling discussion about how their product has an easily demonstrated hardware issue, and you see nothing wrong with that?
That's...that's a bit unsettling, Shivetya. I recognize that it's their site and that it's up to them, based on their forum guidelines, to control certain messages...but come on. You can't possibly think this is a defensible act.
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Why would it not be defensible? It's their forum on their website. They moderate it however they want. Aren't we in a free world or is the "free" only refers to customers, not to vendors?
I mean, if the product is crap, get it back, get a refund and be done with it! Why all the fuss?
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Withholding information is the opposite of free.
A free market will not function properly unless the consumer is given all the data available.
No, it's not defensible; however it's there website and they can practice deplorable acts should they chose to. However they should clearly disclose to people visiting their site they censor negative information.
It may already clearly disclose that info, I don't know
"I mean, if the product is crap, get it back, get a refund and be done with it! Why all the fuss?"
seriou
Re:It is their site. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's defensible in the same sense that the RIAA suing 83-year old dead grandmas that have never touched a computer in their lives is defensible.
It's perfectly legal. The RIAA can bring whomever they want to court, even deceased people (they can sue the estate). It's their lawyers, and they can have their lawyers do whatever they want their lawyers to do.
But if you do try to defend them, then you have no defense against our collective opinion that you're a douche.
Re:It is their site. (Score:4, Insightful)
Discussing a serious hardware issue of a product brought up by a consumer products review magazine on a tech site dedicated to solving technical issues of the product is off-topic?
This is why Apple fanbois are considered the retards of the computing world.
Re:It is their site. (Score:5, Insightful)
Because apple spends so much time trying to convince us they're our friends, that the inflated price tag is because they do much better engineering, and generally snobbing anything else. For them to censor unbiased analysis of their product is inexcusable. They should be on their board either explaining why the consumer reports article is incorrect, or apologizing profusely (replacing the overpriced and broken hardware people have).
Re:It is their site. (Score:4, Insightful)
I say this as a guy who purchased an iPhone 4, but Apple is never your friend.
They are right up there with Microsoft on the evil scale.
Re:It is their site. (Score:5, Insightful)
They are right up there with Microsoft on the evil scale.
Compared to Apple, I'd let Microsoft watch my children.
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I dunno. Ballmer might whip out his Zune and try to squirt the tykes.
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mod parent down (Score:2)
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human spammers. when spambots are ineffective, you start paying people to spam for you (the chinese government does it for instance; also, I assume all parties do it before elections).
and yes, someone please mod "studyabroaduniversit" down, and delete their account too.
and you should be appalled.
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Re:Power Play by Consumers Union (Score:5, Funny)
This seems like a power play to provide more relevance to Consumer's Union than a specific attack on Apple. I am by no means an Apple fan but this issue seems potentially overstated.
Absolutely overstated! I mean, who really wants their phone to actually BEHAVE as a phone! Insanity, I tell you, insanity!
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what would you do if you were Apple?
Remind myself that at one time, Apple was viewed as liberators from companies who were trying to subvert their users? Remind myself that hackers used to view Apple as a friend who was ending the age of begging for computer time? Remind myself of the days when customers were not viewed as sheep whose wallets need fleecing, and when Apple employees were not tasked with finding ever more effective ways to extract money from the customers?
Maybe I would take notice that the Free Software Foundation mentio