Apple, AT&T Sued Over iPhone 4 Antennas 435
bannable writes "Apple has been accused of violation of the Federal Communications Act, three counts of products liability related to negligence, defect in design and breach of implied warranty, intentional and negligent misrepresentation, fraud by concealment, unfair business practices and more. 'The iPhone 4 manifests design and manufacturing defects that were known to Defendants before it was released which were not disclosed to consumers, namely, a connection problem caused by the iPhone 4's antenna configuration that makes it difficult or impossible to maintain a connection to AT&T's network,' the California complaint reads."
Not surprisingly (Score:4, Insightful)
This will have no affect on Apple's sales.
everybody back to 4th grade, please. (Score:5, Informative)
AFFECT is a transitive verb. "I can affect your computer's operation with this sledgehammer."
EFFECT is an object of action. "The effect of my hitting your computer with my sledgehammer is a reduction in idiotic posts on the wacky."
please everybody to get this correct in the future.
Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please. (Score:5, Funny)
I wish you luck in effecting this change in people's understanding.
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AFFECT is a transitive verb. "I can affect your computer's operation with this sledgehammer."
EFFECT is an object of action. "The effect of my hitting your computer with my sledgehammer is a reduction in idiotic posts on the wacky."
please everybody to get this correct in the future.
Sorry to be a pedant, but "effect" can also be used as a verb in the sense of causing something. e.g. "To effect a change in the system we can swap the polarity".
Re:Not surprisingly (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Not surprisingly (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not surprisingly (Score:4, Funny)
We don't stock apples...
Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of times (I suspect most of the time) these sorts of class-action lawsuits are instigated by not just the usual suspects (greedy lawyers), but also with the support of the companies themselves. The lawyers get a big payday. The company gets shielded from any further individual lawsuits. And the consumers get stripped of their right to sue individually, for the "settlement" of a "5% off your next purchase" coupon.
In other words, when you hear "class-action lawsuit," don't think "Yeah, we're sticking it to the big guys!" Think "No, they're sticking it to *YOU*."
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:5, Funny)
"Just don't file the lawsuit that way." -Steve Jobs, paraphrased
We have a new /. meme contender (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:5, Funny)
Just don't take these posts that way.
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These sorts of demands never seem to work. Unless you're trying to get people to post it more... :p
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That too.
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Ok that's it. Starting now, anyone else who posts a "Just don't ... that way" gets modded redundant. Seriously. It's over. And not just in this thread. Forever.
Lighten up, Steve.
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You do know there's an easy way not to be stripped of your right to file an individual lawsuit, right?
Apple will only be shielded from further suits in which the plaintif failed to opt out of the class action.
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:4, Insightful)
In a better world, that should be "Apple will not be shielded from further suits in which the plaintif failed to opt in to the class action."
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My point was that your ability for further litigation should not be determined by you opting out of a class action suit. Instead it should be determined by you opting in.
In other words, no assumption should be made that you desire to feed the machine by automatically opting in and therefore losing further rights to litigate.
I was not attempting to make an opinion one way or the other about class action lawsuits in general or this specific one.
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:4, Interesting)
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Well, don't let the facts get in the way of a good indignant rant, but in point of fact the members of the class are notified by mail. I typically get one or two such notices each year.
Next you complain that the notices are too long and nobody reads them, and then I point out you don't have to read them becuase you should know that there's always a right to opt out and all you have to do is find the info on how to do so.
If you can't be bothered to do that, it's apparently not that important to you to prese
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're going to turn someone's phrasing back on them, try reading carefully enough to know what they said; or are you too stupid to know the difference between "indignant" and "ignorant"?
In any event, feel free to point out a class action where the only notice was buried in the NY Times classifieds. Or were you just full of crap? That the law doesn't prescribe mail as the only means of notice, does not change the fact that classes are notified by mail.
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You make an interesting point because coupons seem to be the remedy in all the class-action suits that I've been a party to.
Can you estimate what percentage of class actions result in payments of "cold, hard, cash"?
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The only exception is the Do-Not-Call registry
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They're only shielded from further lawsuits by the members of the class, aren't they?
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Yes, but everybody is part of the class -unless- they opt out. That means that if they just happen to never even hear about the class action for them to opt out.. guess what? tough luck.
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A lot of times (I suspect most of the time) these sorts of class-action lawsuits are instigated by not just the usual suspects (greedy lawyers), but also with the support of the companies themselves. The lawyers get a big payday. The company gets shielded from any further individual lawsuits. And the consumers get stripped of their right to sue individually, for the "settlement" of a "5% off your next purchase" coupon.
In other words, when you hear "class-action lawsuit," don't think "Yeah, we're sticking it to the big guys!" Think "No, they're sticking it to *YOU*."
Just because there is a class action lawsuit does not mean you have to join it, you are free to sue them yourself and try to get what you think you are entitled to.
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Good riddance (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, Steve, "You're holding it wrong" just doesn't cut it.
If your user's can't actually hold your phone, it's your problem, not theirs.
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Please. You ARE obviously holding it wrong.
It's easy enough to hold it correctly, as Master Yoda [bordom.net] can teach you:
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For what it's worth, the Nexus One [google.com] had similar problems... where's the lawsuit?
Re:Good riddance (Score:4, Funny)
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Hmm, I still think that Apple just does good old business: Pay money, get product. Google is more like give your land and blood, get shiny digital glass beads, no money needed. I know what I can deal better with. In this case I can deal with it by just not buying an iPhone or giving it back if I already had one.
Once you have all your data in the Google cloud though, it's very hard to get it back should you suddenly realize that Google isn't that cool and you don't like to have your digital life tracked and
Re:Good riddance (Score:5, Funny)
> Google lets us have porn on our handsets, so we look the other way.
That's not how you do porn. Or at least, that's not how I do porn.
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No, it doesn't require flash. Most of it can be downloaded in a number of container types.
Well the site I visit don't require flash.
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You know I see this type of response here all the time and you know what? It's not a legit response. Just because there was no lawsuit for a completely different product does not mean this one is baseless or unfair. Anytime an apple product is shat upon someone has to come out of the woodwork and point out another inferior product, like that makes it all okay. Well, no, it doesn't.
Re:Good riddance (Score:5, Insightful)
I expect the signal to vary when I touch the phone - that's a given. I remember when doing amateur radio as a child there was a calculated (and sometimes very noticeable) gain loss when a handheld radio came in close proximity with the human body - and most of these radios had really really efficient antennas compared to most cell phones.
I think with the iPhone 4 - the issue is if you have particularly sweaty hands (which I do) they can short the two antennas and increase the swr so much it effectively knocks the signal out *completely*. When putting the piece of tape over the gap solves the issue I think its more of a design flaw than common problem. I had a rubber antenna for some handheld radio that had a short in it once - you couldn't hear hardly anything unless the transmitter was right on top of you.
In the link you have there - the Nexus 1 owner/author admits that the signal doesn't go completely away - it still lets you make a phone call.
My Rev 2 Nexus 1 (the one made for AT&T/Telus) this issue occurs, but in most cases its not a big deal (maybe 10-20 db - if that). I had the same issue on my Nokia N97 too.
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My understanding is that people are judging things by "how many bars are on my phone?".. not "can i still make a phone call?"
Anandtech [anandtech.com] has a very thorough review of the iPhone 4.. but in particular page [anandtech.com] which talks in depth the changes happening when one uses the grip o' death, etc etc.
Such as:
Re:Good riddance (Score:5, Insightful)
You merely assume that the problems are similar. Upon what are you basing the assumption?
Could you 'short' the antenna in the Nexus One merely by holding a phone in the 'wrong' way? No.
Did the Nexus One signal drop by 24 dBm when you held it in your hand? No. [arstechnica.com]
Is the reception quantifyably worse than either the Nexus One or the previous generation iPhone? Yes.
A 10dBm drop compared to the iPhone 3GS is unacceptable when the primary function of the device is to serve as a wireless phone.
The lawyers suing Apple are not going to let it confuse the issue between absorptive signal loss due to coupling with a nearby hand, which indeed most phones are suspectible to, and antenna detuning due to galvanic conduction over an uncoated external antenna, which is a design decision worthy of a Gumby. [wikipedia.org]
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A 10dBm drop compared to the iPhone 3GS is unacceptable when the primary function of the device is to serve as a wireless phone.
Is it? I thought the primary purpose was to serve as a status symbol, the secondary purpose was to buy overpriced apps, the tertiary purpose was to browse the web. Being a wireless phone is way down the list.
Re:Good riddance (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it is a technical failing.
the Antenna design is BAD. The person responsible should be ashamed of themselves. This may not be the Antennae engineer. He may have been forced to do that design based on some management decision.
Have you ever designed antennas?
"This is validated by scientific signal measurement. "
Care to link to link to said study. Be careful, if it isn't a good scientific study, I will rip you a new one.
Of course you have a fallacy that being better is all that matters. I can build and advertise a car that gets 100 MPG, but if it drops to 80MPG when driven by left handed people, I will be sued. It dosn't matter then t gets better gas MPG then my previous vehicle.
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Well, since the devices don;t all exhibit this behavior, and many of them can't even be made to ground out, I;d call it a failing of manufactruing the coating proerly as it is applied to the metal rim (which shouldbe non-conductive to begin with).
I happen to have a significant engineering backing, heavy in both electronics, magnetics, and RF. I'm not an antenna engineer, but I can do the calculus and understand the physics involved very well.
The release was from anandtech, and was a well done fairly scient
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"I do think Apple deserve credit for finding a place in the phone to include an antenna that I presume to be much bigger than your standard patch antenna."
I don't. Nobody with any antenna experience would make it so that it could so easily be bridged and artificially lengthened, unless the device were meant for tuning to multiple frequencies.
And EXPOSING the antenna? I'm sorry, that's just the dumbest fucking move I've ever seen. I could understand it back in the 40s-80s when we were using lead-based paint
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Huh? Explain yourself troll.
They may have a case (Score:2, Insightful)
If Apple is stupid to only do testing:
A. In their Cupertino facility, which has it's own AT&T tower
B. In the field, but covered with their 30$ bumpers
Then this case may have some potential even though it will drag on for years and only the lawyers will gain millions of dollars, with the end result being a small settlement not beneficial to the consumer. Just like all IT lawsuits.
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I can't speak to sweaty hands, but if that's your situation, probably best you use bluetooth anyway (i know very few joggers who do any different, and fewer still who jog with a smartphone at all).
As for AT&T coverage, I don;t care about maps that cover places people don;t live. AT&T covers 97% of us with a voice/data concurrent network. As for our firm, we had verizon, we dropped them. We're in a big city, and have offices in 15 others across 5 states, 15K employees over half of which have a com
Just Return It (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Just Return It (Score:5, Insightful)
A higher-than-normal return rate, with the antenna issue being the stated reason, should achieve similar results. In theory.
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The idea behind returning faulty equipment is the same, I think.
Re:Just Return It (Score:4, Interesting)
You're absolutely right.
And the best thing is...this phone's only been out a week. 1 whole week.
And there's already hysterical screaming from the rooftops and people running to lawyers because they see Apple as a potential cash cow, rather than returning a defective product and being done with it. No, they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Not to mention the largest of these suits only names 11 plaintiffs. 11.
I've got an iPhone 4 myself, as do two of my friends and none of us are able to reproduce this reception issue.
I know the plural of anecdote isn't data but we're already nearly a quarter the way to the number of plaintiffs in this suit.
Re:Just Return It (Score:5, Informative)
Anandtech just popped out a fantastic writeup on this issue in their iPhone 4 review. Check it out, its very informative for those who don't have basic antenna design knowledge from EE in college. To paraphrase, it reduces signal by up to 27 dbm, which is almost 50% of normal signal range. (50 to 113 dbm). This will not effect you or show on your bars if you get a better signal than ~75 dbm on a normal basis.
Pretty much anyone who has had an introductory course in EE should have forseen this after the keynote...including their employees. It is a case of gross engineering negligence. Yes, interference does happen with all phones, but the effect is much more pronounced with the iPhone 4 due to an exposed antenna and lack of spending to fix / spot the issue.
In short, your anecdote doesn't address the problem because you are in a good coverage area, and the signal degredation doesn't ruin your reception.
Re:Just Return It (Score:4, Informative)
Anandtech just popped out a fantastic writeup on this issue in their iPhone 4 review. Check it out, its very informative for those who don't have basic antenna design knowledge from EE in college. To paraphrase, it reduces signal by up to 27 dbm, which is almost 50% of normal signal range. (50 to 113 dbm). This will not effect you or show on your bars if you get a better signal than ~75 dbm on a normal basis.
Pretty much anyone who has had an introductory course in EE should have forseen this after the keynote...including their employees. It is a case of gross engineering negligence. Yes, interference does happen with all phones, but the effect is much more pronounced with the iPhone 4 due to an exposed antenna and lack of spending to fix / spot the issue.
In short, your anecdote doesn't address the problem because you are in a good coverage area, and the signal degredation doesn't ruin your reception.
Showing again why Anand runs the best tech site on the internet. Mod the parent up and everyone go read http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2 [anandtech.com] before posting saying that the antenna problem makes the phone unusable or posting that is has no effect.
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As a side note, RF signals are usually measured in power, since that give a better idea of what is in the air to be received. The power levels received are dependent on two intertwined quantities; the voltage and the impedance of the receiver. Since impedances can vary from system to system this makes power
Re:Just Return It (Score:5, Interesting)
Ah yes, I found the Anandtech writeup pretty funny, at least the following part:
Cupping tightly - This is the absolute worst case and involves squeezing the phone very tightly, like people are doing online in videos demonstrating all the bars going away. I squeeze the phone hard and make sure my palms are sweaty as well. You'd never hold the phone this way because it's physically painful.
I have no doubt this is a real problem but it definitely seems to be affected by the usual "let's piss all over Apple" thing that always happens when a fault with one of Apple's products has been discovered...
Re:Just Return It (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not exactly about the phone. Yes, you CAN return the phone, but it's too late at that point - now you're in a 2-year AT&T contract, that you then have to pay $375 to get out of. All thanks to your phone, sold to you by Apple, not working as advertised.
So then you have a choice, do you eat the $199 or $299, and the cost to get a different phone, to hold up your contractual obligation? Or do you start lighting a fire under Apple's ass to fix the phone so you can get the phone and service you paid for? AT&T blames Apple, Apple blames the consumer, so the consumer is going to have to sue to get things righted.
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you've got 15 days to return a phone per their contract agreement for buyers remorse.
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In most states a lemon law/buyers remorse period will protect you from being stuck in the contract and most carriers give you 15 days or more to return any hardware and get out of your contract. You can even port your number back over to a more reliable carrier.
Service Cancellation & Early Termination Fee (Score:5, Informative)
It's not exactly about the phone. Yes, you CAN return the phone, but it's too late at that point - now you're in a 2-year AT&T contract, that you then have to pay $375 to get out of ...
I just went through AT&T's iPhone 4 online upgrade process far enough to be shown:
Service Cancellation & Early Termination Fee
Call the number on your invoice/receipt to cancel your service. You may cancel service within 30 days from the activation date to avoid the applicable early termination fee (the "Early Termination Fee" or "ETF").
--
Perpenso Calc [perpenso.com] for iPhone. Classic Scientific and HEX functionality plus RPN, fractions, complex numbers, 64/32/signed/unsigned bitwise operations, UTF-8, IEEE FP decode, and RGB decode with color preview.
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More so, if you used an upgrade option to get the phone for $200 instead of 600, that is ALSO returned to you as if you had not used it. This is backed by federal law. You can not get screwed signing up for a contract you didn't like, or buying a device you don;t want. In some cases, there will be a restocking fee for returning a fully functional device, but AT&T and Apple have confirmed if you demonstrate the issue, there will be no restocking fee.
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If you could actually return the phone, cancel the contract and get all your money back, you would be correct.
sadly, you can't.
Class Action Lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm already seeing all the BS going on about how a class-action lawsuit only helps the lawyers at the expense of the plaintiffs. I do not know if this is usually the case or not, but the only Class-Action lawsuit I have ever been a part of, (interestingly against apple) resulted in a solution that I found quite suitable for the offense.
I didn't get a dime, but I didn't want one. I wanted the system I paid for to work. I got a box in the mail with express shipping paid for me to ship my laptop back to Apple. Apple replaced my defective motherboard, and shipped my computer back. All at no charge to me. I did not even pay shipping either direction.
I bought a product that didn't work as it should. I signed up on the Class-Action, I got a product that worked as it should.
BUT LAWYERS ARE TEH EVILZ! CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS ARE ABOUT LINING TEH LAWYERZ POCKETS NOT GETTING ANYTHING TO THE PLAINTIFF!
Re:Class Action Lawsuit (Score:4, Insightful)
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That is an excellent and probably the very best possible solution.
I hope in the instance of the Apple iPhone4 class action suit, Apple quickly pushes out a redesign of the case (why can't the case be a clear polymer with black and metallic inserts, so the antennae are at least insulated from shorts?) and issues field replacement units to stores, and issues a recall. The cost would be fairly minimal relative to the amount of GOOD PR Apple will gain by providing the sort of customer care they purport to prov
Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post (Score:5, Funny)
I believe this put's us right about here:
In the Apple Product Cycle [misterbg.org]
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Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post (Score:4, Informative)
I didn't call it anything. That's from a page made about 8 years ago that applies strikingly well, to this day, to just about every Apple product launch.
RF energy (Score:2)
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Steve designed a nice little turtleneck sweater which is an optional accessory that takes care of the problem.
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It's not that there is RF energy going somewhere else, it's the antenna getting detuned if you bridge the gap between the 3G antenna and the WiFi antenna by pressing a nicely wetted and salty hand over it.
I certainly think that this antenna design has its flaws. It also has it good points (very good reception when you don't bridge that gap, nicely integrated frame, sleek profile) though.
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DOS 4.0 (Score:2)
Nooo, it's DOS 4.0 all over again. DOS 3.3 was a great release and then they brought out DOS 4.0 which was so bad I had to wait till DOS 5.0 before I could upgrade. Stick with 3.x releases, they're always the best :D
"Difficult or impossible" is a lie (Score:3, Insightful)
I can see where perhaps there would be a case over this design flaw, but to claim it's "difficult or impossible" to maintain a call is simply a lie. In everyday use, not being careful how I hold the phone at all, I have had no issues with calls with the new phone.
If you make the claims too absurd the case will not have a good chance of success.
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Are you perhaps in an area where reception is already reliable? There has been suggestion of not only the obvious trait of it only exhibiting when signals are weak, but also exhibiting when conflicting information about different towers is used to decide which to communicate with. It could well be that only quarter or less of AT&Ts asserted "coverage area" is susceptible to this problem and users not in that area "cannot reproduce it at all", but that's still way way way too much. There are more than
Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie (Score:4, Informative)
No, most reports out there talk about looking at bars and seeing them drop dramatically. NOT about actually having dropped calls.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2 [anandtech.com]
Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes but that is a quote from a complaint and it needs to be a damning as it can be as long as there is a kernel of truth to it.
I'm in an area where all the carriers have spotty signals. I am left handed. I have an iphone 4. If I purposely bridge the gap in question it degrades the reception enough to prevent me from making calls when I'm in an area with a weak signal. So indeed there are situations where the issue makes it 'difficult or impossible'.
Luckily for me I don't naturally hold the phone that way, but it would indeed be annoying if I did. I've been using a cell phone for 15 years and would not be interested in adapting to a new phone's peculiarities.
Overblown but still an issue (Score:3, Informative)
Ars has some good analysis. Seeing the games companies play with signal bars apples are oddly accurate... and logarithmic...
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/06/putting-hard-numbers-to-the-iphone-4-antenna-issue.ars [arstechnica.com]
I don't know what % of iphone users use cases, but I'd imagine its a fairly high %.
The only way... (Score:2, Insightful)
My guess on the outcome? Bumpers for everyone! I'm sure spending a dollar per phone (which is about what I'm guessing bumpers
ATT's return policy (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/return-policy.jsp [att.com]
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Re:ATT's return policy (Score:4, Insightful)
The lawsuit would surely take much longer than 30 days. Why would you even contemplate the continued use a product that doesn't work as advertised? All to have the latest, greatest yet defective product from Apple?
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The *new* 4 doesn't work. There is no option to get it to work as advertised.
A magically version isn't going to pop into existance just because you want to have it.
You can return it and cancel the plan. Or you can swap it for a different phone and keep teh plan. Or you can keep it and the plan and hope it gets fixed.
Seems really srange to want something so badly, when you know it doesn't work...
Bumper solves and creates a problem (Score:3, Insightful)
What I didn't realise until I read a review recently is that although the Bumper solves the antenna issue, it means that you cannot plug in your standard iPod/iPhone connectors!
The "solution" is that you have to take the phone partially out of the case so you can plug the connector in - in other words, every single time you plug it in to charge, sync or hook up to your car stereo!
I'm rather surprised that a company that prides itself on the quality of its products manage to muck up what should be a simple plastic case.
Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem (Score:5, Informative)
What I didn't realise until I read a review recently is that although the Bumper solves the antenna issue, it means that you cannot plug in your standard iPod/iPhone connectors!
I have my iphone plugged in with the bumper now. There's a clearly defined hole of which to plug in the connector. Perhaps your reviewers got the bumper installed upside down?
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/MalfoyR/bumperplug.jpg?t=1277997549 [photobucket.com]
Apple is living like it's the 90s (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the day, circa late 80s and into the 90s, Apple computers were mainly used by artists with little technological experience. As such Apple's customer was essentially beholden to the company because let's face it, what were they going to do, use a PC? These days the Apple customer is vastly different, and though the products are nifty and slick, continuing the arrogance towards the end user may prove counter productive in the long run.
Heheheheh. (Score:5, Funny)
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Did your brain shut down after the first line of his comment?
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That said, I do think class action firms are among the only ones capable of putting a bit of fear in evil corporations (Think Merck/vioxx).
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There are exceptions, but that's typically how it works.
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If they do this along with offering an extended return period (90 days vs. 30 days) I would be okay with it. The product is obviously flawed. 90 days and a rubber band lets people decide if they can live with the flawed product or not. Honestly, what should happen is that every single iPhone 4 purchaser should return their phones all at once and let Apple deal with taking the financial hit of fixing them or selling them as refurbs with a known design defect. Unfortunately, people are too fanatical about