Israel Repeals iPad Ban 180
SillySilly writes "The ban has been lifted: The Communications Ministry announced Saturday evening that starting Sunday it will allow Apple's iPad tablet computer into the country, following two weeks of confiscations and confusion."
Well you know what they're like (Score:5, Funny)
Well you know what the nation of Israel is like, they're always initially suspicious of new tablets. But they come around in the end.
Re:Well you know what they're like (Score:5, Funny)
This one might have the last five commandments..
Re:Well you know what they're like (Score:5, Funny)
The 5 Apple Commandments.
1. Thou Shall Worship the Apple, Only the Apple, and Nothing but the Apple.
2. Thou Shall Only use the App Store, and reject any alternatives like unlocking.
3. Thou Shall Reject any alternatives, including, but not limited to Microsoft.
4. Thou Shall Bow in Ignorance, and Believe that Apple is always ahead in the game.
5. Thou Shall Down Mod this any any posts that violate any of the above Commandments.
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6. Don't show new stuff to the other Steve [gizmodo.com]
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5. Thou Shall Down Mod this any any posts that violate any of the above Commandments.
Your score of 4 suggests that the sinners surpass the pure ones by a margin of 4!
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1. There's only one international airport so it's easy to enforce
2. The government and their departments have no problem with looking like complete fools (it's like a daily occurrence)
3. Oh yeah, and the president's son is an investor in the local Apple distributor (iDigital)
It's probably some mix of those 3 ingredients but I'm not sure in which proportions.
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Kind of but banana republics have better duty free stores and more bananas.
Ban lifted, but limited to one per person. (Score:4, Informative)
At least they finally got it tested so it proved what it said. Isralies are picky to a fault.
But you can't ship 'em in yet. Limit's only one per person, so no gifting yet.
Re:Ban lifted, but limited to one per person. (Score:5, Informative)
Israel has been doing this "War on Terror"(TM) stuff for many years... and as a result some things that we consider harmless are "security threats" until they're proven otherwise. Anything that could emit a wireless signal could trigger something harmful, so there has to be limits on those things.
Re:Ban lifted, but limited to one per person. (Score:5, Insightful)
And of course things that we (the TSA anyway) consider security threats--like water bottles, and nail clippers with a pointy file on airplains--are seen as harmless to them. I think maybe they understand some things about terrorism that we don't.
Re:Ban lifted, but limited to one per person. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes. The Israelis are interested in providing security; the TSA is only interested in providing security kabuki theater.
Re:Ban lifted, but limited to one per person. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. The Israelis are interested in providing security; the TSA is only interested in providing security kabuki theater.
On the contrary, it is Bunraku [wikipedia.org]. They entertain you with puppets, all the while saying "pay no attention to what the men in the black suits are doing".
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And of course things that we (the TSA anyway) consider security threats--like water bottles, and nail clippers with a pointy file on airplains--are seen as harmless to them. I think maybe they understand some things about terrorism that we don't.
Different culture, different superstitions. Do not seek deep logic into either nation's arbitrary pain points. We laugh at people in the past for fearing broken mirror or throwing away salt would bring them a bad fortune. Today we fear nail clippers and mobile gadgets will do it. As any superstition, it's remotely based on some real rare occurrence or situation that has been overblown and distorted beyond recognition.
And some still think modern people are logical.
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Anything that could emit a wireless signal could trigger something harmful, so there has to be limits on those things.
I appreciate what you're saying about the Israelis having tighter anti-terrorism security measures, but a few things:
1. It's absurd that the WiFi on an iPad (or any computer) would be a threat in numbers, but not in the singular.
2. Anything with metal and electricity, or even just a magnet, can emit a wireless signal.
3. The iPads were confiscated at customs. The plane has already landed.
Without further evidence, this wasn't a "war on terror" thing, it was a standard regulatory thing. In spite of common(?) m
Re:Ban lifted, but limited to one per person. (Score:5, Informative)
As an Israeli I assure you, the "national security" reasons given by the ministry were nothing but poor excuses after the fact. Just like in america (or even more so) words of "security" are just the joker cards used by the government to confuse and distract. I also don't buy the conspiracy theories about corruption related to this case.
The story, as I understand it, is a very simple story about a bureaucracy making a wrong decision, finding excuses to that decision and finally backs down after what it perceived as a sensible damages control strategy.
The order of events ( in my opinion ):
1) The custom personnel didn't know how to handle imports of the iPad.
2) They contacted the office of ministry of communications.
3) The incompetent office tried to obtain official details and specs of the device, failed to do so and decided to default to banning the device until further notice. When ignorant, Israeli bureaucracy always defaults to the lazy option and takes the "better safe than sorry" stance, whatever the cost is to the individual.
4) Headlines rightfully ridiculing the decision popped up in Israeli online news sites, followed by a world wide criticism and ridiculing.
5) The office understood the mistake but tried any tactic not to loose face. Then all the stupid excuses came out: the babble about national security, about the office protecting the convenience of the local populace, the lack of compliance from iDigital (apple products importer in Israel) and more excuses. Nothing more than "security", "what about the children" and "look a chubaka!" to confuse and distract.
6) The office waits awhile for everything to settle down and lifts the ban with remarks about "sophisticated lab testing" etc. Sounds very scientific. Very hi-tec. I'm glad we have such sophisticated people in our government.
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Supply problems... (Score:2, Informative)
Apple doesn't have enough supply of the iPad to do a worldwide release because they're delaying American shipments and imposing purchasing limits on large buyers. As a result, they didn't do international standards testing because they aren't selling it everywhere yet. It looks like Israel was the only nation to make a big no-importing stink over the uncertified status... so really this Apple cleaning up a problem caused by excessive demand, something they should be used to by now.
Tablet computer (Score:2, Funny)
Apple's iPad tablet computer
I don't really consider the iPad to be much of a computer.
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Toy..
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I suspect it'll be like all of the other Apple products I've used since my Apple IIe.
Apple IIe can run BASIC programs entered at the keyboard. iPad explicitly cannot.
Apples and Oranges (Score:2)
If you're going to buy an Apple to use an Apple, why would you make it run like an orange?
Because not all applications on which a business depends are available for Mac OS X. That's why Orange Micro used to sell single-board PCs that fit in one of a Mac's slots. This was faster than the emulation that was otherwise required before Apple switched to x86 CPUs.
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Ok, I agree with that. If I'm drunk I'm going to call it a toy. ;)
I understand the change thing. People generally like bigger better things, but they don't deal well with change. But along those lines, I've known people who keep using the same computer til it dies, even though it's ancient. Why? Because they're afraid to even get a new computer.
And to add a car analogy.. :) A long time ago, I used to spend a good amount of time at an auto repair shop. On
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Well, ok, then, I guess that's settled. Since you seem to be in charge of determining what an electronic device with a CPU, RAM, I/O, and a display is called, how should we refer to it?
As a tablet.
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Lets see: Smartphone, navigation device, MP3-Player, media player, internet-enabled TV, ... all of those and more have a CPU, RAM, I/O, and display. ...so what was your point, again?
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Very true (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't really consider the iPad to be much of a computer.
And many don't consider the computer (as we know it) to be much of a tablet.
The difference is what makes it better, and why they seem to be succeeding when other tablet efforts have come out flat.
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"the apple"? Should I assume you mean the Apple iPad or all Apple products? Because I can tell you right now that if you buy a mac you not only get the development tools for it (as well as the iPod touch, iPhone and iPad) for free (as you should) but you can also install 3rd party tools if you have some sort of "my gcc must be untainted" thing going.
But let's say you're talking about the iPad, well it is possible to write programs for it, it's just that the operating system is locked down in a way that requ
Microwave oven is an appliance, not a computer (Score:2)
Because I can tell you right now that if you buy a mac you not only get the development tools for it (as well as the iPod touch, iPhone and iPad) for free
So if you have an iPad and you currently sync it with a PC, you need to buy a Mac mini and a subscription to a service that costs $99 per year (iPhone developer program) in order to turn your iPad into a computer. Otherwise, the iPad is called an "appliance". Your microwave oven has a microprocessor, but do you ordinarily think of it as a "computer"?
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Sorry but I think I've seen a few too many individuals on teh intarwebs claiming to be experts on Apple products yet they seem to pick names at random ("the apple", "mcintosh", "mac phone" and "small mac" are apparently all names of various Apple products according to these "experts"). If someone claimed to be an expert on IBM/Lenovo desktop/laptop computers yet referred to the Thinkpad series of computers as "ibmpad" and "thinkbook", would you take them seriously?
I swear (Score:4, Insightful)
Why does anyone need to know this? There's really not much discussion you can have about "this country lets you bring iPads" in, before this whole pages inevitably devolves into endless flaming about 1) Israel's foreign policy and/or 2) how the iPad sucks because it's a closed platform or whatever.
I'm just saying, it'd be cool if the editors stopped and asked themselves, "Are we posting this because it's important news that people should know, or are we posting it because we want to watch it draw trolls like moths to a flame?". This story is firmly in category 2.
Re:I swear (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people travel to Israel for business. It's actually a technological powerhouse, not some godforsaken desert that many think it is.
So anyone with an iPad would be very interested to know that Israel was stealing these computers at the borders.
Sure, there is some levity about Israel's foreign/domestic policy, but the crux of the matter is that Israel was taking stuff that didn't belong to it in the name of "safety". That's pretty important to anyone who might be affected, don't you think?
Re:I swear (Score:5, Informative)
So anyone with an iPad would be very interested to know that Israel was stealing these computers at the borders.
FWIW, the iPads were not being stolen. The rightful owners could reclaim their property when they exited the country.
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Seriously thou are drugs and guns the same as what amounts to a touchscreen netbook?
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Plenty of cheeseburgers. You just have to find the non-Kosher McDonalds. There's one at the central bus station in Netanya.
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Israel was taking stuff that didn't belong to it in the name of "safety".
didn't belong to it? In the name of saftey? Why do you make these things up?
The iPad has never passed the israeli communication ministry tests for wireless devices. it's not qualified for use in Israel. Every wireless device MUST pass these tests before it can be admitted into the country. Israel has been doing the same for many different type of cellular phones since forever, but no one gives a shit because they weren't apple products.
When a wireless device goes to the US, it needs to be approved by the FC
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When a wireless device goes to the US, it needs to be approved by the FCC. if it isn't, then it is illegal for use in the US. that simple. no "saftey" reasons, no "terror" reasons. It's just a fucking wireless device that needs to approved first.
Except that in both Israel and the US, this is NEVER enforced for random people coming into the country with random devices. A metric crapload of people from Japan visit with phones that have never been submitted to the FCC and nothing happens. The same goes for laptops going into Israel. Now if you want to sell a device in the country in question, that's a different story, but just bring it in, never a problem.
The difference here is they were actually confiscating the devices at the border which they don't
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The reason it was singled out was because a few visitors were actually trying to pass the devices through customs so that they could legitimately use them in Israel.
I suspect most of the Japanese visitors to the US don't declare their phones as taxable goods since they have no intent of keeping/selling them in the US.
People who didn't declare their iPads when entering the country were not specifically searched for iPads.
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People who didn't declare their iPads when entering the country were not specifically searched for iPads.
No, but those several of those did have them confiscated. This has not been the case with any other laptop I know about.
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This happens all the time with laptops and cell phones. I've had a cellphone confiscated when it was shipped over, friends had laptops confiscated the exact same way.
Maybe you didn't hear about it because no one cares when an anonymous Taiwanese manufacturer has its products confiscated? But when such a hyped product like the iPad gets confiscated, the fanbois just go mental, filled with self importance they make outrageous claims like Israel would change their policy specifically for the iPad - because it'
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This happens all the time with laptops and cell phones. I've had a cellphone confiscated when it was shipped over, friends had laptops confiscated the exact same way.
Wait what? We're talking about it being confiscated at the border when being carried through by an airlines traveller. That's not the same as being confiscated when shipped through the mail, although I've never had that happen either. Seriously, I used to do a lot of traveling and I'm pretty sure my cellphone back in the day only worked in the US and was approved there, but no one ever tried confiscating it. No one I've worked with ever had that problem either and a lot of them went to Israel regularly.
Do
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As an airline traveller, when you enter the country, you have 2 routes: 1. declare goods for tax purposes 2. nothing to declare
Generally speaking, if you bought something abroad then you need to go through 1 and pay the appropriate tax.
If you go through 2, you would normally not be searched. Although, you might be chosen randomly for a search.
If you go through 1, you need to show all the items that you've bought abroad and pay whatever custom taxes you need to pay.
Have a look here [ynetnews.com]. The order was given to cu
Re:I swear (Score:5, Interesting)
Sometimes it seems like Slashdot posts stories about Israel for no other reason than to get people to start arguing. Come to think of it, the same goes for Apple
No maybe about it, Slashdot does post stories--and not only about Israel--for no other reason than to get people to start arguing. In fact, I've learned that if I purposely word a submission in a way that will stir up a controversy, it's much more likely to get used. I did exactly that this past week with a submission about Apple possibly buying ARM Holdings by adding a slightly paranoid-sounding sentence about Apple being "able to control who gets to use the processors (and, more importantly, who doesn't)." Totally unnecessary, but I knew that it would help get the submission chosen, and it was.
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I resent the insinuation that anyone who has something negative to say about Apple or Israel is somehow a troll.
If you can't have an intelligent conversation about the merits and demerits of a technology, maybe this isn't the site for you
The problem is that people posts have nothing to due with technology. (Some do but how many post can you get out of Israel now allows the ipad?)
Instead, we hear about how they are building homes in places we think they shouldn't or how they are murders of innocent Palestinians.
If you want to bash Israel, at least keep it technology related, but hate does not usually allow one to restrain oneself.
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I am cool with that. But at least the editors could be honest and use a humanity story. There are plenty to choose from.
Re:Trolls are not attracted to bait (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah... like how that iconic picture of the 12-year-old Mohammad al-Dura screaming in terror moments before he was brutally murdered was finally proven to be a staged "Pallywood" production. Or driving the Palestinians out of their homes in Jerusalem. Oh, you mean those Jewish homes purchased over 100 years ago, whose owners the Jordanians drove out, renting the homes to Arabs and holding the rent in "escrow" for the legal Jewish owners? Until the Arabs stopped paying the rent and tried to claim the homes as theirs? And finally got evicted for not paying rent for years? Wish I could live in a rental house and then decide to just stop paying the rent and get to claim title to the house.
Or how about building some apartment buildings in a Jewish neighborhood of Jerusalem that in no way expands the borders of said Jewish neighborhood? Well, I guess facts really aren't all that much fun, are they? After all, "thousands of illegal settlements driving the Palestinians off their land" sounds a lot more exciting than "Jews legally building apartments in their own neighborhoods".
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Sure. Post one of those stories and we can talk about it. Posting an iphone story just so we can talk Israel politics is dishonest.
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True. But then, that's often how a conversation goes; starts on one point and segues to something else. The iPad story is legitimate, and receives its share of conversation. Every post has interesting side channels to the conversation.
They are not out to get you (Score:2)
The same could be said about Australia any time it's government does anything stupid related to technology, thus I suggest growing up.
We are not all out to get you.
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Historically the ipad, its software and hardware do open a few questions.
Some parts of the world might ask questions beyond interference issues.
Could slashdot users comment on unique tracking needs?
How open is Apple OS efforts to a trojan or more passive world wide tracking?
Would an engineer like a new grey market ipad..
Did that affect non residents ? (Score:2)
> If your iPad was confiscated by customs officials
> atBen-Gurion International Airport, you can now
> pick it up
Questions:
* did that affect people travelling to Israel as tourists or just locals returning home with a product from overseas who declared it at customs ?
* if you were a tourist, was your iPad returned when you left the country ?
* if not, do you have to go back to Israel to get it returned or can they ship it to you ?
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I am sorry that I can not answer, but I did feel compelled to say this: How dare you ask questions relevant to the story!!
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MAZAL TOV!!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Why the iPad? iDigital is the Israeli distributor (Score:5, Informative)
I think the bigger question is how 1,000's of other foreign products go in without any problems. Why was the iPad singled out? If I take my new HTC phone fresh from Taiwan and unlicensed in Israel, they are not going to seize it.
Time offers an explanation:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1983236,00.html [time.com]
"It is worth noting," Etengoff wrote, "that Apple's Israeli distributor, iDigital, is run by Chemi Peres, the hyper-entrepreneurial son of Israeli President Shimon Peres.
"Clearly, iDigital wants its lucrative cut of every iPad brought into the country — which it will undoubtedly receive when a modified European version of the iPad is approved for import over the next two or three months.
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The order came from Communications Minister Moshe Kahlon, who apparently hadn?t been appraised of the initial decision to ban the devices due to their wireless specifications.
Make sense now?
Re:What, why? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What, why? (Score:5, Informative)
Everything that intentionally emits a wireless signal has to have a prototype sent to the FCC here in the USA. We typically learn of new Apple iPhone/iPad products just before they're submitted to the FCC because once they hit the FCC they'd become public record at that point anyway.
Israel's complaint was mostly due to a lack of a seal of approval that the iPad now has. Nothing wrong with the device, just need to show one to the approved lab and pay the fee.
Re:What, why? (Score:5, Informative)
We typically learn of new Apple iPhone/iPad products just before they're submitted to the FCC because once they hit the FCC they'd become public record at that point anyway.
Actually the FCC will handle equipment testing and acceptance confidentially. The process takes quite some time (months) so confidential testing and processing helps prevent early disclosure of products. Also, many devices like the iPad do not require new certifications because they will simply integrate a pre-existing radio module that has already been though the process.
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Also, many devices like the iPad do not require new certifications because they will simply integrate a pre-existing radio module that has already been though the process.
While this can happen, depending on the enclosure of the device the FCC can still elect for full testing. You still need to submit, and they can approve purely on similarity, but all the little metal bits can cause a compliant radio to become non-compliant. Think of a parabolic reflector, and that's a simple way to make a compliant device non-compliant.
I'm pretty sure that with Apple's R&D budget and their limited space, the iPad probably didn't use an off-the-shelf radio module.
Re:What, why? (Score:5, Informative)
once they hit the FCC they'd become public record at that point anyway.
You can actually pay extra to the FCC to have them keep it a secret until the product is released. Apple doesn't trust the FCC to be able to keep a secret, so they do announce the products before sending them to the FCC. And frankly they don't trust the FCC for a good reason: the FCC really can't keep a secret, someone will get a secret picture of it or something.
Re:What, why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What, why? (Score:5, Funny)
Wow. You're right. I didn't actually read your post.
Please allow me to retract my previous statement, and insist that the immediate unavailability of vodka combined with a fright of the forthcoming Monday must have clouded my vision and thoughts.
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Everything that intentionally emits a wireless signal has to have a prototype sent to the FCC here in the USA.
That's only if you plan on using it in the USA, without a licence that makes it exempt from FCC approval. A lot of phones available in Europe aren't FCC-tested, because there's no point shipping them to the US since they don't have the infrastructure to use them.
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Israel's complaint was mostly due to a lack of a seal of approval that the iPad now has. Nothing wrong with the device, just need to show one to the approved lab and pay the fee.
Are you sure? Name another WiFi device that Israel prohibited personal imports of.
Is it not possible that the reason this WiFi device was singled out for prevention of personal importation a day or two after Apple delayed the international release is because the authorized Apple importer for Israel is well-connected within the Israeli government?
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You mean Chinese made. The only thing exported from stateside these days are Britney Spears videos.
Re:What, why? (Score:5, Funny)
You mean Chinese made. The only thing exported from stateside these days are Britney Spears videos.
I think her kids are also locally sourced... but I don't follow that stuff too closely because, hey, none of it's spilling my direction..
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Well, you need to make me happy by giving me 25% of your wealth. I guess since you believe in the spread_the_wealth_around philosophy you won't have any problem with my request.
If you do, I'll petition Obama to make you give me your wealth. He likes taking wealth from one person and giving it to someone else. He calls that charity on the part of the person from whom he takes money. So, I want him to make you charitable, whether you like it or not.
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You're right it's not charity. It's not trade either, when the jobs used to be American jobs. It's stealing jobs from the citizens of the US and then giving them to the citizens of another country. It's enriching a citizen of another country at the expense of your own citizens. It's enriching another country at your own country's expense. Seems pretty self-defeating to me. Bankrupting yourself to "help" someone else is never a good thing. It's irresponsible at best.
That was the point of my post. What s
US made laptops? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:US made laptops? (Score:4, Insightful)
I find it pretty hard to get excited about a computer "made in the USA" when you know pretty much every component in the thing was actually made in China.
Re:US made laptops? (Score:5, Insightful)
Intel, AMD and others have fabs in the US. The RAM in my laptop was produced and assembled in the US. I bought it because it was cheap, it's the fourth time I've bought this brand and no problems yet, knock on wood. I don't really understand how something American made can be cheaper, but whatever, I'm happy to vote with my dollars.
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Hard drives seem to be cheapest in the US and Canada. I believe they're usually manufactured over here?
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Not sure about the USA, but there are disk manufacturers in Europe, particularly in Poland and the Czech republic. My wife kept a job with such a manufacturer for about 6 months when she and I lived in Poland briefly. Surprised that there was such an operation in Poland, I did some research, finding that many drive manufacturers operate in Europe, not in Asia. Presumably, they can better control the production quality of a device such as a hard disk, while exploiting the low-cost wages of the post-soviet
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I've given up. Cheap and good is better than country of origin. Although if a product comes from a democratic country I will probably buy that item. Like if it made in India or France or something. But if the American one is cheaper than the French one, I'll buy that.
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Shimon Peres - Israeli President, Chemi Peres - son of Israeli President who happens to run iDigital, iDigital - Apple's Israeli distributor
If you're prone to think such thoughts it appears that there would an ulterior motive ($$) for the ban on the iPad. I live in Beirut and the iPad has been here for a couple of weeks now, but the prices are astronomical, they're basically double of what t
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> So if the iPad was in violation then Israel should be confiscating all US made laptops at the border.
Jokes on you.. I don't think there are any laptops made in the US, then again, neither is the iPad
[Yeah, I'm sure there is probably at least 1 brand that IS actually made in the US.. if you're reading the above line and getting upset, you need to find something better get worked up over]
Didn't necessarily violate, untested (Score:5, Informative)
If the device violates their wireless standards then why the hell should they allow it to operate in their country?
It shouldn't. But it doesn't.
The whole issue was that it was untested. That was it. As with any bureaucracy, rules must be obeyed even if in the end the result is the same.
Same is true of USA (Score:2)
"The whole issue was that it was untested. That was it. As with any bureaucracy, rules must be obeyed even if in the end the result is the same."
Indeed, though I'd go further than saying it is true of bureaucracies to any organisation or nation. Would the USA trust a device made in China (for example) if the Chinese government said they'd tested it? Probably not. Would a US company (say Ford, or Cisco, or Apple) trust a foreign made device because the Chinese/Italian/Kazakh/whatever makers said they'd teste
You can't go further than the end (Score:2)
As with ANY bureaucracy
Indeed, though I'd go further than saying it is true of bureaucracies to any organisation or nation.
Which part of my "ANY" was not clear?
It's hard to go further when I was already at the end of the line waiting.
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"Which part of my "ANY" was not clear?"
I was pointing out that there are organisations and nations which are not primarily bureaucracies, though on reflections you might argue that all established organisations are bureaucracies so your succinctness was correct.
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How important is the small market there that this is being discussed all over the internet?
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Its interesting that the same President that see racism in the legitimate actions of the Cambridge Police and the State of Arizona, hides the anti-Semitic prose of its National Security Adviser.
You will know racism is sufficiently dead when we can tell jokes again. I don't know if James Jones is actually anti-semitic, but telling a joke about a race does not alone make one racist, any more than telling a blonde joke makes someone anti-blonde.
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er...Jew is a race. "Real" Jews can in fact be identified by DNA.
http://www.healthanddna.com/ancestry-dna-testing/jewish-dna.html [healthanddna.com]
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er...Jew is a race. "Real" Jews can in fact be identified by DNA.
There's DNA you may identify was "jew", but things are not that simple.
The moment you make such connection a rule, you'll end up with things like jew families who are no longer jews and weird things like christian jews.
This whole debate of who is a jew is a mess. If you want to know more, you may start here [wikipedia.org] and here [wikipedia.org].
Not needed for Massad (Score:2)
Don't forget you are dealing with a group that makes "The Family" look kind at times and they have both lots of desert and a very nice body of water to hide stuff. If the Massad wanted to get a shipping container of iPads for whatever reason most likely they would just ask for them (and get them) or they would just "vanish".
Just remember if you go far enough back both groups involved are in fact Family.
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Add to that the usually ignored fact that it was Israeli land that was occupied by Jordan and Egypt for 19 years before the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation was lifted.
Funny how during those 19 years of Jordanian occupation of the West Bank and Egyptian occupation of Gaza that nobody ever suggested a Palestinian state in those occupied territories. And that during those 19 years (and the 40 years since then) the 400,000 or so refugees from the 1948 war were kept blocked up in the "camps" and not allowed to