Apple Fails To Deliver On Windows 7 Boot Camp Promise 279
SkydiverFL writes "For those fans of Apple's Boot Camp package, it looks like you might be waiting on the next 'end of year' to use Windows 7 on your shiny silver boxes. Back in October of this year, Apple published a rather short, but affirmative promise stating quite simply that, 'Apple will support Microsoft Windows 7 (Home Premium, Professional, and Ultimate) with Boot Camp in Mac OS X Snow Leopard before the end of the year. This support will require a software update to Boot Camp.' The support page has no updates regarding the new version. Maybe they're waiting for iSlate?"
The Vista drivers work fine (Score:5, Informative)
There is no need to wait. I installed Windows 7 bootcamp on the day it was released on Technet, and it worked fine with the Vista drivers.
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There is no need to wait. I installed Windows 7 bootcamp on the day it was released on Technet, and it worked fine with the Vista drivers.
This is what I would assume since they are not using unique hardware anymore.
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Re:The Vista drivers work fine (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a friend with a 2008 MacBook Pro that absolutely could not, for whatever reason, get Windows 7 to run correctly on Bootcamp. He would start it up and be able to get to the login screen, but his MBP would report the keyboard and touchpad as something non-generic and require a driver that doesn't yet exist for Window 7. He could force-install a generic driver but the exact same thing would happen the next time Windows restarted because it detects a less than ideal driver and replaces it.
Last I checked he was running 7 inside VMware instead, but he'd rather run it without a host OS under Bootcamp. As has been said lower here, it's not about the ability to run Windows 7 on Bootcamp, it's Apple's support of it. What's disappointing is they've had a lot longer than the GA of Windows 7 to put together this "update" and still haven't done it.
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The 32-bit version of Windows 7 was a success.. for some reason, that installer allowed me to press any key and begin the process. I am writing from Windows 7 on my mac right now, and I used the snow leopard disc to install my drivers. All went fine as such
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What about the special drivers that let you set the volume, screen brightness, etc?
Re:The Vista drivers work fine (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The Vista drivers work fine (Score:4, Informative)
You are correct in that the OEM drivers built into Windows 7 do not support Apple hardware.
Just install the drivers off the OS X DVD into Windows 7 and all that hardware will work.
If your complaint is the drivers are not built into Win7, then you are complaining at the wrong company. Apple does not make Windows 7...
re: There are still bugs .... (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I ran across a nasty bug when I first put Windows 7 on a drive in my Mac Pro.
My system has 4 physical hard drives in it. The first was labeled "OS X Boot" and the 2nd. and 3rd. had labels of "Data 1" and "Data 2". I installed Windows 7 on the 4th. drive. All went well, except when booted into Windows 7, it displayed the OS X drives out of order. (With the latest version of Boot Camp drivers on the Snow Leopard DVD, they provide "read only" support of the OS X HFS+ volumes in Windows.) It was
Why bother? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you wanted a Windows laptop why would you pay all that money?
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Really good support. Like crazy good support.
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3 days? That's not good service. Good service on a laptop is next day on-site repair.
Re:Why bother? (Score:4, Funny)
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How can I get next-day onsite support from Apple?
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Because some people have applications that need Windows to run for work, school, home, etc. that don't run nicely in VirtualBox.
And not on Parallels Workstation or VMWare Fusion either, presumably.
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I dunno. Some of MY work apps are mandated to run in a VM.
OTOH, the only real dog I've seen on the personal side for VirtualBox is iTunes [snicker].
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Informative)
PC World's fastest Windows laptop in 2007 was a MacBook Pro [pcworld.com]
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I guess it's in their interests not to get the fastest laptop, then.
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WTF? It's like saying somebody should buy an F1 car just because it's fastest
I agree 100%. People should buy a machine to suit their needs. Anyone who blindly buys the fastest model available is just being egotistical and foolish.
which does not cost them their house and children
A new Mac mini goes for $599 and a MacBook is $999. This is hardly "house and children" figures. Pick a reasonable Mac then go to Dell and spec out a similar machine. The PC prices will be in a close neighborhood.
not require special fuel and can run on ordinary road
This article is not about the iPhone. It is about Apple systems running OS X that can utilize Boot Camp.
Hardly any "special fuel" required o
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"A new Mac mini goes for $599 and a MacBook is $999. This is hardly "house and children" figures. Pick a reasonable Mac then go to Dell and spec out a similar machine. The PC prices will be in a close neighborhood."
Ok I'll take that challenge. Im Canadian so priced in CAD.
$649 Mac Mini: http://store.apple.com/ca/configure/MC238LL/A?mco=MTM3NTAwOTE [apple.com]
2.26GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x1GB
160GB Serial ATA Drive
$409 Dell Inspiron http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=di545s_r_1e&c [dell.com]
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Did some ore playing to match the specs better.
$1,132.00 Mac Mini: http://store.apple.com/ca/configure/MC238LL/A?mco=MTM3NTAwOTE [apple.com]
2.53GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x2GB
320GB Serial ATA Drive
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Apple Mouse
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad
$559 Dell Inspiron: http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=di545s_r_1e&c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&kc=desktop-inspiron-545s [dell.com]
Intel® Core(TM) 2 Duo E7300 (3MB L2, 2.66GHz, 1066FSB)
4GB
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, actually, they're not (Score:3, Informative)
"The PC prices will be in a close neighborhood."
This hasn't been true for 5 years, and gets less true every day.
It fun to watch you people get modded up for something that is, essentially, an easily disproven lie.
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An another note: It also was more expensive than two of the second-most powerful one. ;))
Re:Why bother? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Not only that, but games run slow too.
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Things that run decently and don't have minute-long lag is a need.
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You must be a hit at parties.
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Why do you eschew choice? (Score:4, Interesting)
If you buy a Mac Laptop, you can run Windows, Linux or OS X, all fully supported.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can't officially run OS X - and of course it comes pre-loaded with Windows, not OS X.
Considering you also get better quality hardware, it seems reasonable to pay a little more for more choice.
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Re:Why do you eschew choice? (Score:4, Informative)
While I consider my aluminium macbook to be of excellent design and hardware quality, the first generation macbook that I had before this was absolutely atrocious. Random reboots, dying batteries, malfunctioning chargers, wireless that wouldn't connect under bootcamp and an optical drive that required prying a second disc half way in to be able to eject the first disc.
On the topic of the article, Vista drivers work fine, but one thing I did not appreciate was having to (though easily) find a work around to Apple's arbitrary restriction on limiting the installation of x64 drivers to the macbook pros. Not sure what the stupid rationale would've been for that as the drivers work fine and nobody would've chosen to buy a macbook pro just to run Windows x64
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Speaking as a former repair tech that still gets the 'honor' of fixing other people's broken new-model macbooks, I'll just say "Look at the actual board vendors." Apple hasn't realy "MADE" their own hardware in years. They just say what hardware they want and let the board makers pack it on and make it work.
Fuck that noise, you're better off trying to piece your own system together. In fact, many companies exist to do just that for you, nowdays, with discrete powerful MXM graphics that you can upgrade. Bare
Stop with the "Better quality hardware" (Score:4, Informative)
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Not even close, at least not for the Mac Pro (which I considered for a while until the price realization came).
The 8-core Mac Pro base sells for $3299 [apple.com]. I tried to duplicate the hardware, but unfortunately you can't buy some of it at most stores any more as it's older (i.e., nobody sells it anymore because it's junk compared to current hardware).
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> The 8-core Mac Pro base sells for $3299 [apple.com]. I tried to duplicate the hardware
Fortunately with a PC I don't get stuck with what Steve thinks I should have. I get to
build systems based on what MY actual requirements are. Yes, that's ME as an INDIVIDUAL
rather than just another member of the hive.
I can skimp on the CPU or supercharge it or leave things out entirely or include things
that exist in no Mac.
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The list of complete models must be limited, or you get the chaos of half-assed support and conflicting drivers which exists in the Windows world. Apple has a reputation for ease of use, and part of the reason for that is having very specific models with very specific parts designed to work together. Once you open the gates to allow anyone to put just anything they want in the machine, you have support issues. It's a closed product with limited options. If Apple products don't suit you, don't use them. Simple as that. But you come across as a maligned Apple-hater when you could just say "Meh, not for me" instead. I would expect better from someone with a low ID.
the grand parent post purpose is to specifically shows that "better quality" as in "apple form" does not have to be as expensive as apple hardware. To that extent, the post is extremely spot-on
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I don't eschew choice; I eschew carrying around a small box with a large price tag and a conspicuous "steal me" icon on the lid.
I also eschew the anemic power of laptops compared to desktops (where's my quad core already?) and so long as I'm compromising, I might as well save some money in the process.
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You can get a quad core laptop, but only in a 18" (or maybe 17" by now.) And the battery life is only alleged to be a little over two hours, which is marketdroid speak for a little under two hours, or not long enough to watch a fucking movie. Still, you can get such a thing... just not from apple :)
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Virus protection issues - the lack of need to run a virus program. Same for malware.
Set shortcut for hotcorner/screensaver and press it to lock screen. No need for script.
No hibernate on OS X, but sleep is virtually flawless and performs almost the same task - if you ever want to close down for long enough that a battery will run flat, why not just power off completely? Is it because it takes a week for windows to boot? No idea.
Also, define "forever" did Win 3.11 for Workgroups have hibernate? Did W95 have
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You're also ignoring the fact that you have to re-open any files, programs, and possibly websites that were open. Not only does that take time, but it's also a pain to keep track of everything. Hibernate is wonderful, but you'll never even give it credibility because it's the evil Windows that uses it (yes, I realize Linux has it too, but I've yet to see a Linux system wake from sleep or hibernate - I love Linux, but that's always been a problem on every Linux system I've used).
Besides - 2 minutes? My PO
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And that is what sleep mode is for....
Sure, hibernate would be nice, just never needed it.
Instant wake from sleep is more than enough.
Re:Why do you eschew choice? (Score:5, Informative)
They already did-- but they call it "safe sleep," and it's not easily accessible from the System Preferences.
http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/pmset.1.html [apple.com]
http://www.jinx.de/SmartSleep.html [www.jinx.de]
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Because you can't run MacOS X on a generic laptop (easily or legally). On the other hand, Windows 7 is magnificent and if I have to replace my Macbook Pro I'll probably just buy a Windows 7 based laptop and dual boot with Ubuntu.
Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Higher quality drivers for video, touchpad (on laptops) support, Eye Sight etc. That's really what Bootcamp offers are the drivers that lets you get full mileage out of the Mac hardware in the context of Windows.
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-Windows (Score:2, Funny)
i just posted this comment on my 27" imac (Score:5, Informative)
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The issue, I would guess, is that while you managed to get it to run well, there's a decent percentage of macs with hardware that won't work perfectly with Windows 7. Apple not giving official support of Windows 7 means most users probably won't try to install it. If they do try to install it and run into a problem somewhere down the line, Apple tech support will most likely refuse to help since the feature isn't supported yet.
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And the requirements are lower.
i just posted this on my $600 quad core hackintosh (Score:2, Informative)
running snow leopard, debian, and win7. what's the issue? everything works great.
Re:i just posted this on my $600 quad core hackint (Score:2)
big monitor on that rig? LCD back light?
how much ram? how fast?
Firewire 800? Gigabit ethernet? Bluetooth?
how's the wireless?
just asking.
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Apple doesn't say you can't run it now, only that they don't yet support it.
Works fine on a Mac Pro (Score:3, Interesting)
Apple haters... (Score:5, Funny)
Use the Preview button!
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they didn't fix it! (Score:2)
oh wait, it wasn't broken, was it?
drat. can't bash. lets post to slashdot anyway!
Bootcamp a gimmick (Score:5, Interesting)
While it is valid to complain that Apple missed a deadline, I am kind of surprised that Apple even made the effort to create a deadline. I cannot imagine people paying Apple prices to run MS Windows on an exclusive basis. I can imagine them paying such prices to run virtual machines with other OS.
I would rather see Apple point customers toward Parallels or Fusion rather than working on trying to get MS Windows to work as the base OS. What would be even more cool is a kernal that could then be used to run any number of OS in virtual mode.
Re:Bootcamp a gimmick (Score:5, Interesting)
I always saw bootcamp as a gimmick to encourage MS Windows users to switch to Apple Hardware. If one buys a mac, and really can't stand OS X, one can always go back to MS Windows. Or if MS Windows must be run occasionally, then Bootcamp is an effective way to do so.
I use BootCamp for playing games (I still play a lot of UT2004) and for doing CAD (Autodesk Inventor and PCB design). All those really benefit from direct booting into windows. Plus the fascist copy protection in the CAD programs makes it difficult to run in parallels. I do use parallels for light CAD work and such, and I just boot from the BootCamp partition using parallels. IT's the best of both worlds.
I need windows around to do things like PCB design, because there are no viable Mac alternatives. There is a lot of scientific packages are just plain don't exist on the Mac. With the Mac I have OS X for my daily stuff and much of my engineering design work, and occasionally use Windows for the few things I can't do on the mac. All on one quiet machine.
Windows 7 works fine on my mid 2009 17" MBP using the vista drivers. I run XP though, as I don't need or want the extra features of "7" and the smaller footprint of XP makes it nicer for my needs.
Sheldon
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Games games game games games. Games, games game games. Games = games. Game games; games, games games games, games and games. Games? Games!
Games.
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Autodesk doesn't rely on split-second timing to make the difference between winning a game and losing a game, and it isn't about wringing every bit of eye candy you can out of your system. Look, I loves me the Parallels for things that aren't games, but when I'm playing a game, I want as little overhead as possible.
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Games and good hardware.
I know a guy that has an office full of Aluminium iMacs that only run Windows - he likes the design, especially the space saving and the quality of the screens. It was the best all-in-one machine he could find.
Lost a little of my soul, but no other issues (Score:5, Interesting)
There was a Firmware update about 2 weeks ago, which may have been what we were waiting for; but I had no problems with it when I installed it today.
-Runz
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Apple Specific Drivers (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Apple Specific Drivers (Score:4, Informative)
Windows 7 supports EFI natively. You apparently do need Apple drivers to use the internal keyboard and trackpad on laptops, though.
Regarding power management, AFAIK, the worst case scenario would be if the SMC drivers didn't load, in which case after the SMC's watchdog timer fires, the SMC should bring all the fans up to full blast. You're not going to overheat the CPU by failing to load the drivers. You can verify this if you'd like. With your computer idle, unload the fan control KEXT. Thirty seconds or a minute later, the fans should ramp up. When you reload the KEXT, they should spin immediately back down to what you'd expect with the machine idle. At least this is what happens in the G5 towers. I'm assuming the Intel laptops behave the same way.
CPU power management is handled by the CPU, not by any special bits in the chipset, AFAIK, so that should be unaffected no matter what. And the hardware is designed to protect against getting too hot, so at some point, the CPU starts putting itself to sleep to keep the temperature within bounds, and if even that isn't enough, the computer shuts down. AFAIK, most of that happens in hardware, so even a really broken OS shouldn't be able to damage hardware. At the very least, it's pretty unlikely.
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Windows 7 supports EFI natively. You apparently do need Apple drivers to use the internal keyboard and trackpad on laptops, though.
The keyboard and trackpad work from a fresh install, but not everything on the keyboard is mapped to the right place and multi touch does not function. The vista drivers work, through, so it's not a huge deal.
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you have a likeliness of damaging the CPU if all you run are intensive tasks under Linux.
[citation needed]
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I use Ubuntu on a Macbook. The power management (battery life, suspend, hibernate) is much better on Mac OS, and there are a few drivers that need to be installed, but otherwise it works just fine.
It works fine for me (Score:2)
I've been running Win7 64-bit Enterprise on my work Macbook 2,1 since August or September. Had to fiddle with it since this machine isn't supported for 64-bit environments, but it worked.
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BZZZZT (Score:2, Interesting)
Sure, there may be a grain of truth in the article. Windows 7 is not "officially" supported by Apple. Neither is linux, and that runs fine on Macs too!
/. jumping the gun (Score:2)
Back in October of this year, Apple published a rather short, but affirmative promise stating quite simply that, 'Apple will support Microsoft Windows 7 (Home Premium, Professional, and Ultimate) with Boot Camp in Mac OS X Snow Leopard before the end of the year [CC].
Hang on, it's January.
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Hang on, it's January.
TFA was posted December 31, 2009 8:03 AM PST. Running about a day late here, not that that is unusual...
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Posted by Soulskill on Friday January 01, @11:22PM
o_O
I'm in GMT zulu time.
uhhh... (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they're waiting for iSlate?
iGuess...
Its Very Doable now (Score:5, Informative)
First, the Snow Leopard DVD includes boot camp 3.0, which VASTLY improves the use of the touchpad under Windows XP or Vista. It also mostly works under Windows 7.
If you don't have a Snow Leopard DVD, here is a link to the drivers on TPB:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5054638/Bootcamp_Driver_3.0_for_Windows_32bit__amp__64bit_%28from_Snow_Leopard
After installing this updating the sound drivers and video drivers would be advisable since the ones that come in boot camp suck and/or cause crashes.
http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us for video drivers. Select windows-7 then 32 or 64 bit depending on which you've chosen.
ac
http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/downloadsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=14&PFid=24&Level=4&Conn=3&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=false
After this it should be reasonably stable.
No issues here (Score:2)
Wait, (Score:4, Interesting)
So, the version i am running from Snow Leopard, that says "compatible with Windows 7" right there on the setup screen is actually NOT compatible with windows 7.
FTFA:
You cannot run your Mac applications simultaneously
No one notified me of this! Ive been running it like that since I installed it!
You cannot safely resize the Mac or Windows partitions
Got me again! Next time i'll try it, i'll make sure to do it as unsafely as i can.
You cannot easily transfer files between the two partitions (without third-party support)
I'll stop using the hfs driver in boot camp right away (once i learn to disable it. Damn apple making stuff just work).
Seriously, anyone reading CNet for legitimate stories should have his head checked.
I'm running on Windows 7 just fine... (Score:2)
Everything works fine. I used a third party partition manager to set up/move the partitions around and then used the bootcamp drivers. Power savings could be better (2 hours under Win7 vs 6 hours in OS x) but aside from that nit it works just fine for me.
I'm not entirely sure what the issue is.
Boot camp can't be trusted (Score:3, Interesting)
I have noticed 2 major issues with Boot Camp coming with the "snow leopard" DVD and I started to believe Apple doesn't want users to have good performance on Windows. Or, they don't have slightest clue about importance of these things.
1) The NVidia GPU drivers coming with Snow Leopard DVD (and there are no updates) are _old_. One would think "well, they could prefer stability", no it is not the case either. The stuff offered at NVidia drivers page are WHQL certified by default too. 9400M is especially a GPU/Integrated GPU hybrid, it really needs up to date, latest driver software to function properly.
2) Now, this is not a trivial thing to fix like heading to nvidia and download a driver. SATA on latest gen Mac Mini (and Intel based stuff) is not properly identified to Windows via MBR or "BIOS". There isn't much information there but in case of Intel SATA controller, it is documented and you can take a real big risk of MBR tweaking with some ready to use tools and identify SATA/AHCI situation to Windows, thanks to NCQ like features _only_ available to AHCI (at least under win), 2-3x performance hit may occur. NVidia chipset having Mac Minis who really needs whatever software performance they need (they run 2.5"). I did every documented, undocumented, dangerous trick on book to have 20 MB/sec pathetic speed. Same drive on same hardware hits 60-70MB/sec on OS X.
As Nvidia won't give specs to a chipset nerd or end user, things would really change in case of Apple themselves contacting them. I really believe people who can do crazy things like putting a virtual BIOS on top of EFI etc would manage to change couple of bytes. I started to believe that it is Apple who wants their users,customers to have junk like performance on Windows. Perhaps with the recent Win 7 hype, they are afraid of their customers having good experience with Windows and start to question their brand?
Re:jesus christ (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Virtualbox (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Virtualbox (Score:4, Informative)
Not entirely correct.
Virtualizing the graphics card already has support for all the major VMs (VirtualBox, VMWare, Parallels, etc) and it's being actively worked on with support from the big GPU ISVs.
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Seems the developers of VMWare and Parallels are in disagreement with you.
Re:Virtualbox (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't see any Linux vendors bragging about what a big extra "feature" GRUB is, and it does the same thing. Often more transparently.
Really? I admit I haven't used GRUB for a couple of years and it may have improved since I last did, but I don't remember it letting me pop in a Windows CD, helping me resize my existing partitions, then installing Windows and setting up the correct third-party drivers for my hardware. Does it really do all of that now?
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> Really? I admit I haven't used GRUB for a couple of years and it may have improved since I
> last did, but I don't remember it letting me pop in a Windows CD, helping me resize my
> existing partitions, then installing Windows and setting up the correct third-party drivers
> for my hardware. Does it really do all of that now?
That's really the OS installer's job which Linux does very well at.
Both Windows and MacOS are inferior in this respect. Given the UI of the install CDs,
I would not hold out g
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Dual booting is just so 90s.
I don't want to bother with that crap. I want it all and I want it right now.
This why I don't bother with MacOS but I've got an XP VM. If I am going to
kick the tires, I want it to be running on another desktop. I don't want
to have to stop my main machine.
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There are video driver issues with the 27" iMac. People get a black screen after it tries to use the stock ATI drivers. The workaround is to either use NTFS-3G to delete the %windir%\system32\drivers\ATI*.SYS files and reboot, or just boot into a safe mode command prompt and do it. Once your on the desktop, you can install ATI's drivers without issue.
There are also Magic Mouse driver issues (read: no driver). Although many people can get them working with old driver packages, they tend to be jerky, unusable
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Perhaps if Microsoft required Microsoft brand hardware to legally run Windows and Microsoft actually made computers you might have some sort of point.