USB-IF Slaps Palm In iTunes Spat 600
An anonymous reader writes "The USB Implementers Forum has finally responded to Palm's complaints that Apple is violating its USB-IF Membership Agreement by preventing the Pre from syncing with iTunes. It's found in favor of Apple. Worse, it's accused Palm itself of violating the Membership Agreement by using Apple's Vendor ID number to disguise the Pre as an Apple device."
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple is using capabilities of the USB spec to disable interoperation with other manufacturers' equipment for what is clearly purely anticompetitive reasons. Don't you think it's a little late to "keep business politics out of this"?
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:5, Insightful)
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Before: iTunes looks at what is plugged in and sees if it is an iPod (or CLAIMS to be one). Since the Pre is built to emulate an older iPod, iTunes would handle it exactly like a real iPod of the model and series it is emulating. Palm (rightly) used the Palm Vendor ID as part of that identification, and Apple ignored it. An iPod is an iPod, and if you claim to support a featureset iTunes would offer it to you. Apple isn't about to change the featureset of older iPods that are no longer available for sa
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
thing is the Palm Pre _is_ an ipod.
at least, it declared itself as an ipod device and conformed to the spec to act as an ipod device.
(Incidentally - in the original setup, it declared itself as an ipod that was made by Palm)
Given that USB (Universal Serial Bus) was intended to allow devices to plug and play, it is bad form at the least for apple to deliberately disable it.
How would you feel if Microsoft disabled USB keyboards that were manufactured by other vendors?
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Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:5, Informative)
I don't think either party was the hero in this battle, but Palm deserved what it got.
Apple provides legitimate methods to connect a device to iTunes via a public API and/or Toolkit. This lets them support things easier by making sure the public API works after changes.
I see it as less "anti-competitive business practice" and "we want to stop the ball rolling on companies tricking iTunes so support doesn't become a problem."
Look at it this hypothetical scenario which is NOT the case here but goes to the overall problem.
- Lets say ALL of the device companies out there decided to skip the API and do what Palm did: trick it.
- Apple legitimately wants to change something on their end with the way iTunes interfaces with iPod/iPhone.
Do something neat / tricky to add a feature or improve performance that they KNOW works on the iPod/iPhone.
- But now they have to worry about breaking every other device out there because the hardware and capabilities are different.
- So now you have to wonder "is this REALLY an iPhone?"
* If only there was some way to know for sure which device this was?
* Oh wait! THAT's what Vendor ID is for.
------------------
This is the sole point of the public API and/or Toolkit. You state funcX() returns Y. Maybe one day you want to add funcZ() or replace funcX() with funcX21() . Maybe you eventually upgrade the API / Toolkit so the client code needs to be changed but it's on the other companies to stay current, not you supporting other companies' devices.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Apple legitimately wants to change something on their end
Maybe that's the real issue. Apple changes their stuff far too often, and in far too fundamental ways.
With Windows, I can try to figure out how to connect the machine to an LDAP server (for example), write a cheat sheet about it, and come back 3 years later on a new Windows machine, and my cheat sheet still applies.
With Apple, stuff changes in a fundamental way not only between major versions (Tiger and Leopard) but also within the various releases of Leopard. What should be a simple routine operation (ad
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe that's the real issue. Apple changes their stuff far too often, and in far too fundamental ways.
With Windows, I can try to figure out how to connect the machine to an LDAP server (for example), write a cheat sheet about it, and come back 3 years later on a new Windows machine, and my cheat sheet still applies.
If you were to write an "iTunes plugin cheatsheet", you'd find that 3 years later it'd still apply. Or, at least, this [apple.com] would seem to imply that the API has remained stable for almost 2 years. Instead of following the Device Plugin mechanism provided by Apple, Palm decided instead to resort to hackery to trick the application into believing the Pre is an iPhone. They also brazenly claimed they'd provide seamless integration with iTunes without actually getting Apple on board. Exactly how, or why, compatibility was broken is irrelevant: you should expect solutions based on hacking away at an application's internals to break frequently, which already fails to accomplish the premise of "seamless integration" without even getting on Apple's bad side. So, unless someone can convince me the API is unwarrantedly crippled, this choice by Palm is indefensible.
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:4, Insightful)
Did Apple ever ask to be able to sync with Windows Media Player? Apple wrote their own app. Why can't Palm do the same? Since day one the iTunes library database has been stored in both a binary file and an XML file. Couldn't half of the readers on Slashdot write a simple GUI to read the XML file, let the users choose which music to sync over and copy the files to a Palm Pre in less than 2 hours?
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And when they change the format on newer versions, to break compatibility with your application?
(They've been doing these tricks since the BeOS days.)
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:4, Informative)
Any documentation that they have changed their XML file format since 2003 in a way that it broke compatibility...besides [i][b]It's a XML file[/b][/i] how much less obscure of a file format can you get?
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:4, Informative)
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Which is entirely within their rights. You may not like that, but tough shit!
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No they don't. They simply refuse to accept that a non-iPod is an iPod. iTunes will happily sync with non-iPods, but only if these devices don't lie about what they are.
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:5, Insightful)
On a practical note: the iPhone sync is 2-way. What would happen if Palm implemented its sync with a bug that zapped your iTunes library?
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:4, Insightful)
Incorrect analogies, both of them.
USB devices have both a device ID and a vendor ID. The device ID tells what interface the device has, so the software can correctly connect to it. The vendor ID is merely informational, telling who manufactured it.
A device with a device ID corresponding to an iPod should act like an iPod. It shouldn't matter who made it. Spoofing the device ID is not against the rules. An "iPod" made by Palm should work exactly the same when syncing with iTunes as a legitimate iPod made by Apple. That's the purpose of the device ID.
For a more appropriate analogy, think of an auto shop (gotta be a car analogy, right?). This shop specializes in servicing Dodge automobiles. You walk in and say "I need a Dodge Caravan carburetor installed in my Plymouth Voyager." Now, the Plymouth Voyager is exactly the same minivan as the Dodge Caravan; all the parts are exactly the same. The only difference is the little logo glued to it. Would it be silly for the mechanic to refuse to service your car because it doesn't have the Dodge logo?
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Think about what you just did: you posted on Slashdot.
You used a web browser, which sent a few HTTP requests, represented as TCP/IP packets over an ethernet cable, which then traveled to an internet router, possibly via DSL or DOCSIS, got routed via OSPF and BGP, to a server running Apache and Perl.
Every step of that journey involved one or more open, freely-available standards-based protocols that have been embraced by hundreds if not thousands of vendors so they could all communicate with each other. Wit
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:4, Interesting)
Think about what you just did: you posted on Slashdot.
You used a web browser, which sent a few HTTP requests, represented as TCP/IP packets over an ethernet cable, which then traveled to an internet router, possibly via DSL or DOCSIS, got routed via OSPF and BGP, to a server running Apache and Perl.
Every step of that journey involved one or more open, freely-available standards-based protocols that have been embraced by hundreds if not thousands of vendors so they could all communicate with each other. Without all those open protocols, you would be stuck on a Microsoft internet, or an Apple internet, or maybe even a boring conservative IBM internet, and they would all be walled gardens, completely blocked off from each other.
You just made a good argument against what Palm did. With all these standards, if companies didn't follow them, there could be problems. Palm didn't follow USB standards and tricked iTunes into thinking it was an iPod. Not every protocol has to be an open standard. If Apple doesn't want to allow everyone to sync with iTunes, they don't have to. Also, openness does not benefit everyone. It benefits some, and could potentially benefit everyone, but doesn't always. When Apple allowed Mac clones to be made, most people thought it would bring Mac OS to a wider market and make Apple more money. Apple still made the OS, and even got licensing fees from the clone manufacturers. All it ended up doing was bite into Apple's revenue. Mac OS market share didn't grow, and Apple was just losing sales to the clones. Even if the average iPod user buys 100 songs over the life of the iPod, Apple still makes more money from the iPod sale than from the music. Why would they want to cut into their iPod sales just to potentially increase the money they get from the iTunes store?
Re:Talk about a pathetic article (Score:4, Insightful)
Your post is confusing.
You started off arguing for Apple against Palm by talking about standards needing to be followed which Palm is not doing.
Then you switched to arguing against Apple (but still not for Palm) because you dislike iPods personally.
I guess in the end the issue with following standards is more important than one persons opinion of one product of one company.
So I agree with you that Palm fucked up here by violating standards and trying to wall you into their Pre garden or something.
Oh, and to correct one of your statements, Apple does integrate with 3rd parties with open arms.
They did so with blackberry, Microsoft, and a few others.
The iTunes APIs are published by Apple. I don't know if any license fee is involved, but I didn't think so. Don't quote me on that last bit though.
Following the Path (Score:3, Insightful)
Every step of that journey involved one or more open, freely-available standards-based protocols that have been embraced by hundreds if not thousands of vendors so they could all communicate with each other.
Exactly why the iTunes library stores data in bog standard XML, and the store files (for audio) are pretty much all standard AAC files.
So your complain that Apple does not follow standards, except they do, and third parties can easily make use of them to provide the same abilities iTunes has to peruse th
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If this were Internet Exploder that forced vendors to engage in shenanigans
like this NO ONE would object to the shenanigan and EVERY Apple fanboy would
be standing in line to heap the abuse onto Microsoft.
The fact that the software allows interoperability with nothing more than
a spoofed client ID just goes to show that Apple is creating an artificial
compatability here that ties into their dominance in media players and
online sales of downloadable media. If Google or Microsoft were doing the
same thing, people
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>It's a total double standard.
Yep, its a real double standard. I also noticed that no where in this "debate" is the right to modify even brought up. Pre owners, you know the people who paid for it, should at least get the choice to fake their USB ID. Why not? Its their equipment! Have we reached the point where we cant even humor the idea of modifying stuff we own so it works better with our own equipment?
The USB forum rules are the kind of well meaning rules that dont end up applying too well in real
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>I should have known that was a required qualification to post here.
Then you should refrain from posting commentary in public about how updaters work and how things can be bricked. Thanks.
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According to the summary, Palm is accused of using Apple's vendor ID. Your description seems to make a lot more sense.
Yeah... when Apple made iTunes not sync anymore unless the device had the Apple vendor ID (in addition to the iPod device ID), it broke compatibility with the Pre. Palm thought that was a competition-stifling move and countered it by having the Pre report both the iPod device ID and the Apple vendor ID. That was the only thing preventing it from syncing, so it worked fine after they did that.
Reporting the iPod device ID was fine, but using Apple's vendor ID was against the rules. Palm knew this, which is wh
No FAKE IDs (Score:2)
Re:Legality? (Score:5, Insightful)
For a sins what Palm did was 7 and what Apple did was a 4.
If you hacked you Palm to do what Palm did then that would be a sin of 1. But the fact that the company created such actions intentionally against Apples will (3) marketed it (4) to the general public.
If you did it with your own Palm then it is only a 1, perhaps a 3 if you made it public. As you have already purchased the product and what you are doing is actually a favor to Apple as you buying their songs and using their product...
However by the corporation doing the same thing, they are hurting apple as they are making a product that is directly competing with their product, and not working with your competitor for compatibility.
Why is it worse for a company to do something then it is for an individual?
Well first it is scale, The individual usually has limited influence as they don't have the resources to make a large influence, at best the hack would give you some geek credits and only the brave geeks who could afford to brick their phone to do it.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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First much of iTunes as it exists today was developed by Apple once they bought the original software, so they are fully in their moral right to ONLY let their equipment use it
Soooo... if MS went out of there way to actively prevent or to criple you from running Windows 3.1 on say Dr DOS instead of MS DOS, you would consider that morally and legally okay? MS thought the same thing back then as well.
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You are an idiot.
Palm programmed the Pre to lie. How is this not morally reprehensible? Or do morals only apply to Apple because you don't like Apple?
Apple does not care if the Pre syncs through iTunes. They really, 100% DO NOT CARE.
Apple cares that non-iPods do not lie about being iPods. It's that simple. Even a slash-hole like you AUGHT to understand that.
Morality? (Score:5, Interesting)
Morally, it's wrong of Apple to deny other media device manufacturers access to iTunes and ITMS.
Morally? There's nothing immoral about it so far as I can see. With apologies to the authors on wikipedia [wikipedia.org] I just don't see how morality comes into the picture here.
There is no authoritative code of conduct here other than our laws and the bylaws. You personally may feel they are behaving immorally but there are plenty who will disagree with you so your personal morals can't be argued in any sort of universal authoritative sense. You might make an open source style argument but you're on shaky ground there too. Neither ITMS nor iTunes is open source software. You know that up front. You also probably know that there are free (as in speech) and/or legal alternatives to both. If you don't like what Apple offers you don't have to use their software and services. Apple is not under any moral or legal obligation to cater to your every whim.
There also is no ideal code of conduct here that we can all agree on. Apple worked hard to create their combination of products and services. Should they not reap the benefits, especially when it has no detrimental effect on you? You may not like Apple not letting it's competitors be free riders [wikipedia.org] but I see nothing morally wrong with them preventing the competition from capitalizing on their work. ITunes is not some piece of public infrastructure and there is no compelling argument that it represents a market failure [wikipedia.org]. The entire reason we have copyrights and patents is precisely to advance the public interest in the face of the free rider problem. There is no compelling public interest to making iTunes or ITMS the equivalent of a common carrier at this time. Neither the software nor the service is a monopoly - both are merely popular in comparison to the alternatives available.
Legally, it's likely also wrong.
I suspect you are not a lawyer and you have provided no evidence whatsoever to back that assertion. I'm pretty aware of the issues involved and I cannot think of any reasonably legal argument whereby Apple is doing anything against the law. Happy to be proven wrong but I doubt you can prove me wrong.
Anti trust and free riders (Score:4, Interesting)
The Sherman Act says actions meant to preserve market dominance are illegal when they destroy competition itself.
No, it doesn't actually say that. Read the act [wikipedia.org] and the subsequent legislation including the Clayton Act and the Robinson-Patman Act. Market dominance by definition means that you have destroyed competition. What anti-trust law guards against is elimination of competition to the detriment of consumers. That is a MUCH harder case to make.
Apple isn't disabling the Pre's syncing because of worry about consumer, they do so because letting the Pre sync could damage their iPod sales. Despite a variety of alternatives, iPod's still command a healthy share of the mobile audio players market.
Apple is in the business of selling hardware - iPods and more importantly iPhones. So is Palm in the business of making and selling phones but NOT MP3 players. Apple has created software and a download service that helps create a market for their devices. These services have been quite successful. Palm has (to my knowledge) not created their own iTunes equivalent but instead has chosen to free ride on Apple's investment, knowing they will sell phones at Apple's expense. People who buy a Pre are probably not going to buy an iPhone as well. So what reasonably argument can we make that Apple should be supportive of this? I certainly can't think of one.
A case also could be made that Apple's disabling the Pre's ability to sync as a native iPod is illegal product tying - i.e. requiring the purchase of one product to complete purchase or use of another.
Tying is not generally held to be illegal unless there is no relationship between the goods offered for sale or some sort of price discrimination. There is no compelling argument for tying here because each part of the service is independent (you don't HAVE to use iTunes or ITMS with an iPod).
An MP3 player by itself isn't especially useful without software to load the files on to the device but you don't have to use Apple's software to do it. ITunes is merely one of many ways to manage a music library and interface with an MP3 player. Even iPods don't require iTunes to work nor does iTunes require an iPod to be useful - you can play music from iTunes without even owning an iPod. Furthermore iTunes is free so no one is required to pay anything to use it.
ITMS is a service and the product it provides (MP3 files) can be obtained easily elsewhere for similar if not lesser cost.
Morally? Doesn't it seem a bit greedy of Apple to stop the Pre from syncing just because Palm wanted to make life easier for users and making it a PITA to use a Pre might get some people to buy iPods?
Palm isn't selling MP3 players. Palm sells phones. Palm is trying to be a free rider [wikipedia.org] on the work of Apple. Apple is in the business of selling handsets like Palm. If someone buys a handset from Palm they don't buy one from Apple. It's a zero sum game. Why should Apple pay to support Palm when it is perfectly legal for Palm to set up their own version of iTunes and ITMS?
However, none have the breadth that ITMS has as far as selection. It's much like how WalMart isn't a monopoly because other companies sell lots of the same stuff-they just happen to be hundreds of times bigger than your average supermarket chain
That's a fairly good analogy and illustrative. Apple is for the moment the 800lb gorilla in the MP3 music market. Like Walmart however they are no where close to being a monopoly. Dominant? Yes. Influential? Certainly. Monopoly? Nope. A monopoly that is detrimental to consumers? No way. Sorry but you haven't convince me that Apple's actions are in any way illegal.
Palm Got What They Deserved (Score:3, Insightful)
Serves them right.
Re:Palm Got What They Deserved (Score:5, Insightful)
Why syncing with iTunes need to be authorized?
Re:Palm Got What They Deserved (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only does it not need to be authorized, it is also legal to circumvent any and all obstructions which have been put into place to prevent syncing with iTunes, per explicit exemption in the DMCA for creating compatibility.
Re:Palm Got What They Deserved (Score:5, Insightful)
Why can't Palm write their own syncing program?
The iTunes tracks aren't protected by DRM.
Palm was trying to get a free ride by not having to write their own syncing program.
Re:Palm Got What They Deserved (Score:5, Informative)
Why don't you pull your head out of your ass. Apple provides an API toallow iTunes to snyc to anything. All palm needed was a plugin. However palm broke their USB speecs, and legal agreements they lied to end users, iTunes and the USB-IF
Instead of following the rules palm stole and lied to every pre owner and your too stupid to see that. Apple constantly changes things and yetstill have a better user Interface than msft who won't change their underwear.
I'm impressed by this persuasive post full of pertinent facts and references, and I only have a few lingering questions:
Thank you for your many thoughtful contributions to this discussion. :-)
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The main selling point of the Pre is WebOS. Sure, the iTunes synch was a nice little extra, but I used that feature once and pretty much forgot about it. Of the other Pre owners I've run into, iTunes was pretty much a non-issue.
You are right though in that Palm shouldn't have even bothered including, let alone publicizing a hack that could be so easily disabled.
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Since the main selling point of the Pre was unauthorized iTunes sync. Serves them right.
says who? trust me, the software the phone runs is the "main selling point". i've never even used the itunes syncing feature.
Think of Barcodes (Score:5, Insightful)
To all those people who think "What is the big deal about faking yourself as Apple?". The point is that these are reserved identifiers in the same way as barcodes are reserved identifiers.
Would it be right for Palm to use the iPhone barcode for the Pre? Clearly not.
So here is another case where there is a specific rule around reserved identifiers and Palm broke the rules. Their alternative is to opt-out of the USB group and do it themselves without its blessing or just suck it up.
Complaining about the rules of a game after joining the table and playing a few hands is just dumb.
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Would it be right for Palm to use the iPhone barcode for the Pre? Clearly not.
Would it be right for Apple to use the Mozilla user-agent for Safari?
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Or maybe Palm is faking the ID so that its owners can use the iTunes software that Apple spends significant money developing, rather than develop its own software. Apple is preventing that despicable behavior.
Re:Think of Barcodes (Score:4, Insightful)
Or maybe Palm is faking the ID so that its owners can use the iTunes software that Apple spends significant money developing, rather than develop its own software. Apple is preventing that despicable behavior.
First let me say that I'm glad Palm got reprimanded for faking the vendor ID. If suddenly that was allowed, there would be utter chaos as multiple devices pretend to be other devices and mess up proper loading of drivers and other important features.
That said, if Apple wants money back for the software development they put in iTunes, they need to charge for it. Once the software is installed on my computer it's no longer their software, it's mine. I should have the right to use to sync with whatever device I want to sync with, and anybody should have the right to make their hardware talk with whatever software is available on the user's computers.
And finally, I don't even understand why Palm wants that feature. The real problem is that I need to sync my iphone with that piece of crap software, not that I can't sync other stuff with itunes. God, how I wish I never had to open that horrible software, could just mount the iphone like a usb drive, and dump music files there, as with any other mp3 mplayer.
Re:Think of Barcodes (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Think of Barcodes (Score:4, Informative)
But Apple provides an API that does exactly what Palm wanted to do - sync the Pre with iTunes. All they had to do was look at this published API and write a plugin. Apple aren't trying to "force Palm out" via anticompetitive practices, they are just saying "if you want to sync with iTunes, stop spoofing our USB ID and write your own plugin using the published API for iTunes sync".
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Apple is abusing the ID in an attempt to stifle competition.
Clearly a troll post, so I don't expect a reply from you personally...
But how on earth is Apple publishing an API to interface with iTunes, which Palm purposly knowingly and willingly decided not to use, how on earth is that Apples fault??
Might as well blame Microsoft for abusing computers by not providing flawless compatibility with Linux and MacOS executables.
Apple welcomed Palm to use iTunes with a plugin with (free) open arms.
Palm said fuck off
Palm designed their Pre so it can not identify itself to the
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
How can they stifle competitoon when APPLE PUBLISHES AN API THAT DOES EXACTY WHAT PALM WAS TRYING TO DO - all Palm had to do was look at that API and write a plugin. iTunes does sync with third party players - you just have to write a plugin.
What's not ok is to think "well, we can't be bothered to write a plugin using Apple's published API, I know, we'll just change our vendor ID to tell iTunes we're an iPod and it will use the iPod plugin".
Apple are not being anticompetitive here - iTunes does sync with t
This doesn't sound unreasonable to me. (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple isn't doing anything to extend USB in a proprietary fashion; it's using an existing feature to differentiate between devices. It's blocking some of them deliberately from working with its software, but it's doing so in a USB-compatible way. Even if they were denied this access, wouldn't it be possible for them to create a challenge-response between the software and their authorized devices that didn't involve the USB Vendor ID?
On the other hand, faking a Vendor ID for your USB device is bound to irritate and annoy the standards group responsible for issuing and tracking Vendor IDs -- even if it's done for the noblest of compatibility purposes.
This iTunes lockout is really lame, but the USB-IF shouldn't have to be involved in it. And instead of fighting that battle, couldn't Palm channel its energy into developing an alternative to iTunes and partnering with a decent DRM-free music provider such as Amazon? If their alternative is solid enough, perhaps it could be licensed to other device manufacturers for extra benefit?
Re:This doesn't sound unreasonable to me. (Score:4, Funny)
Well said. Moreover, for those of us who have dealt with hardware piracy, Device and Vendor IDs are critical identification tools, not only to ensure that OUR software runs correctly, but it's one other way to identify pirated hardware. Most pirates aren't smart enough to use the correct information in the flash. Heck it was so important 10 years ago that Microsoft used Windows Update to enforce four-field enforcement on PCI devices. Instead of using two-field matching, that allowed, say, Asus motherboards to coat-tail on Intel drivers, Windows Update required four-field matching (Vendor ID, Device ID, Subvendor ID, subdevice ID). While it added an additional layer of validation cost, Microsoft did it because of the problems with incompatible drivers, not piracy. Also, in the PCI world, falsifying IDs is just as critical as in the USB world.
My main concern is that the purpose of these IDs is to ensure compatibility, which Apple can, in no way, guarantee with the Pre. Had Palm asked and entered into an arrangement, they might've had the opportunity to do it right. It's also true that Apple has no legal requirement to facilitate the functionality and no MORAL obligation, for that matter. The way Palm went about the Pre indicates that no matter how revolutionary the OS is (and it IS), it will be marginalized for both consumers AND business. Palm has developed a pattern on the Pre of half-assing things that actually MATTER (ActiveSync security, anyone?).
Letter to FDA (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Not surprising. (Score:5, Insightful)
Palm claimed Apple was violating the spirit of the agreement by using their vendor ID to lock iTunes to their products.
Palm used this to justify breaking the actual letter of the agreement by using Apple's vendor ID to trick iTunes into thinking Palm devices were iPods.
So, guess who got in trouble? The guy who actually violated the agreement, of course.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
It's not so simple.
IBM dominated the mainframe computer market in the 1970s (by making a superior product to Burroughs, Honeywell, etc.). However, they required their customers to buy IBM disk drives, IBM terminals, IBM printers, etc. This was ruled anti-competitive by the courts, and it was made legal for competitors to reverse engineer IBM's interfaces, spoofing as needed, in order to make "plug compatible" peripherals (and mainframes). The public benefited from the competition.
Apple now dominates the
Unsurprising; but doesn't make me enthusiastic... (Score:4, Insightful)
However, that said, I can't see tying attempts between products(above and beyond the natural tying effects that the complexity of software interaction naturally produces) as being even a remotely good thing for users, competition, or technological development generally.
Imagine if, back in the day, the "Well, they should just write their own iTunes-like application" had been applied to Compaq and the IBM-compatible clone kiddies. "Well, they can just write their own OS and set of applications..." Even back then, with the fairly minimal legacy effects, that would have retarded the development of cheap, standard, supports-the-software-you-want-to-run computers. It is basically demanding that anybody who wants to make anything must have a complete vertically integrated product range, to which they must induce customers to switch.
Very rarely in the history of technology has that ever worked particularly well. Most of the time, development consists of a few standards, formal or de-facto, and the surrounding ecosystems of add-ons, compatible widgets, clones, extensions, and software, authorized and unauthorized. And, frankly, that has worked pretty well. Modern technology is competitive, fast, ubiquitous, and impressively cheap.
If, in the future, we move away from the annoying-but-largely-useless forms of tying involving monkeying with pinouts every generation, and obfuscating stuff, and move to effective forms of tying based on crypto challenge-response, signing, vendor IDs, and the like(along with a fair bit of force of law, thanks to Mr. DMCA) I fear we will see a much less rich period of technological development.
Few companies are large enough, or smart enough, to maintain a fully integrated product line. Fewer customers actually want to use every one of a company's products, and none of their competitor's products. They want things to work together. Obviously, some degree of imperfection in interface is to be expected, interconnection of complex systems is Hard and writing wholly unambiguous specs is Very Hard. Deliberate breakage, though, is insult to injury.
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It may have worked out nicely for people who want cheap Chinese hardware, but how did that work out for IBM in the
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Why is it so fucking hard for you assholes to understand that Apple is NOT taking a legal stance on this issue?
Apple doesn't want devices to lie. Palm wants to lie. This is fairly simple.
It's so discouraging to see that it's OK to lie as long as your lying to a company that you don't like.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This has always been the case with interoperable systems. In this particular instance, one of the signals that iTunes expects
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So tell me.
If you think it is a good thing for Palm to use iTunes, then why the hell didn't Palm use iTunes, you know like all those other 3rd party players that work perfectly well with iTunes using the proper methods, like blackberry and windows mobile?
Apple did not 'lock out' Palm. Palm designed a broken (defined as broken by the USB spec) device, and purposely designed the Pre so it was impossible for their device to identify itself to the computer as a Pre.
Palm purposely made the choice to design a pr
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Palm designed a broken (defined as broken by the USB spec) device, and purposely designed the Pre so it was impossible for their device to identify itself to the computer as a Pre.
What the hell? Citation needed. Palm is welcome to use any device ID they want in order to identify their product. The only catch is, if it says "iPod", it damn well better act like one, or it's not going to work right.
The vendor ID, which is totally different, still said "Palm". That is, a Palm device that acts like an iPod. Until iTunes started checking that, and saying "I don't care if you think you can be an iPod, you weren't made by Apple so I'm not speaking to you".
Now it's impossible to tell, but on
How is this Apple's fault? (Score:5, Insightful)
I love how the comments immediately blame Apple for all of this. How is this any of Apple's fault?
PALM complained about APPLE to the USB-IF. Apple re-tweaked iTunes, their own software, to verify the devices claiming to be ipods were really ipods. They didn't claim copyright infringement, they didn't issue DMCA notices, they didn't make patent infringement claims, they just changed their software to make sure devices they support were actually devices they were modifying. Palm makes it's computer connections lie, and it's Apple's fault. Awesome.
Apple is not the most open company around, but if openess is what you want then don't buy Apple, it's not like you're forced to.
I'm not really sure why people whine about the iPod not being open. It doesn't lock you in to the iTunes store, or DRM stuff, even on video. I buy most of my music from EMusic then Amazon MP3 store then finally iTunes. It'll accept music from peer-to-peer networks as well.
90% of my videos are ripped from DVD and have no DRM. Works fine on my iPod and Apple TV.
Let's play the "if I were judge" game! (Score:3, Insightful)
Two issues:
1. The USB license issue -- Is it okay to use another vendor's ID? No, probably not. Is it okay to use the vendor ID to work with your software to the exclusion of others? That's an interesting question. Is the use of a vendor ID an acceptable means of keeping others out of your marketplace? That is a question worth exploring since Apple is using its music hardware to leverage its position in the sync software arena and the two are also being used to leverage its position in the digital music selling business. There is a legal term for using one market leading position to leverage another... now what was that word? Anti-something? This second question, however is not a matter for the courts at this point. It is a question for the USB people and at the moment, they say "Apple good, Palm bad."
2. Is Apple entitled to lock out other hardware makers from using the software it has published and distributed? Here is where that Anti-word might get raised. The digital music player market and the digital music market are "connected" but they are not the same market. Apple is presently a leader in that market and is blocking access to that market to competing hardware vendors thereby harming the competitor to Apple's own hardware by using its position in another market. Smells of Anti-.... Anti-.... what's that word again?
Code version of this forum (Score:3, Funny)
10 Print "Palm spoofed the id's. What's wrong with that"
20 Print "You can't spoof ID's in a standard like that"
30 Print "Apple created a closed system yet claims it's open. Those Bastards"
40 Print "It is open, there are lots of hooks in"
50 Print "Then why won't they let Palm Play ball?"
60 Goto 10
Who CARES about Itunes on the Pre, anyway? (Score:3, Informative)
I certainly don't.
I mean, how can they make it ANY easier? I plug in the Pre to a USB port, I copy over music files to any directory I want, I sync/unplug the Pre. Done! It doesn't require or need iTunes. Besides, iTunes doesn't run on Linux or BSD, but using usbstorage to copy over the files works on *EVERYTHING*. No cost, nothing to download, nothing to install, nothing to configure, no "end user license agreements", no Internet required, no registration, no spyware, no special accounts, no magic daemons running.
Guess what? You can do the same thing for pictures and videos, too. It is simple, fast, easy.
As a Pre user, I find the waste of time and energy on this iTunes compatibility thing frustrating when there are plenty of other, BETTER uses of Palm's development time and energy.
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:5, Informative)
WebKit, Grand Central, Darwin Streaming Server, LaunchD (some Linux please pick this up...), Bonjour (Yes ZeroConf, but I think they're the first to make it popular), Even XQuartz so that OSS stuff that uses X11 can run under OS X looking like OS X. They even have a cute little website with the word 'forge' in it: http://macosforge.org/ [macosforge.org]
Hell they even have Darwin, the base of OS X. Lets see Microsoft release an OSS version of XP minus some GUI bits.
Yes, Apple is protective of quite a bit of stuff. But they're released a ton more OSS that I've found than MS.
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Darwin is "open source" as long as no one tries to make a competing distro. Just look at the history of projects such as OpenDarwin.
"Grand Central" already had existing OSS alternatives such as Intel Threaded Building Blocks.
XQuartz sounds like something just so they can get more apps. Nice for them and their users.
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BSD!=GPL. Learn the minor differences, all OSS is not the 'same'.
With the BSD license you can do what ever the hell you want with the code. Including closing it and charging for it.
BSD License [wikipedia.org]
The BSD License allows proprietary use, and for the software released under the license to be incorporated into proprietary products. Works based on the material may be released under a proprietary license or as closed source software. This is the reason for widespread use of the BSD code in proprietary products, ranging from Juniper Networks routers to Mac OS X
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:5, Informative)
Difference number 2: MS was hated by many geeks, and by geek sites such as Slashdot, or at least criticised for these actions. Apple on the other hand are loved, even by geeks, with these actions twisted around to be good things, and with sites given no end of free advertising and hype ("You can read this webpage On Your Iphone" as we once had, or witness yesterday's non-story of "Someone releases a second application for the Iphone"...)
If Apple actually did become big - e.g., the hype around the Iphone becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and in 10 years time, mobile computer is dominated by a monopoly that completely locks down the platform, locks out competitors, and where Apple need to give permission for you to run a 3rd party application on the mobile computer you've bought - will this attitude changed?
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Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Insightful)
That's completely retarded. DRM is out of the picture on iTunes store and if you insist on purchasing there, nothing keeps you from syncing your music library to whatever device you have.
There was no requirement for Palm to highjack Apple's ID just so that they can benefit from cheap engineering. RIM made the right decision and that is to not rely on software they dont control for their syncing.
What Palm did is sell a device to their customers and provided no guarantee as to the usability of the product, because they hack another company's software solution.
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Palm was rather sleazy in trying to hijack Apple's software to do things that Apple doesn't want to support. On the other hand, I more than halfway expect Palm to now file an anti-trust complaint against Apple for abusive vertical integration on the basis that Apple has a practical monopoly in some of the areas here. It would be a somewhat weak claim -- there are other digital music stores, and other ways to synchronize music between devices, but Apple has a pretty commanding share of those markets plus t
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I doubt Palm can do squat on this issue. They violated their USB license by using another vendor ID.
They might actually have to pay a penalty on that.
And because they went beyond their USB manufacturer agreement, they don't have a case in court.
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No, no they're not.
They're not even a monopoly in the cell phone market.
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Informative)
Does Apple have a 95% share of the portable music player market? I don't think so, a quick Google shows it to be between 70 and 80%. That's not a monopoly.
Does Apple have a 95% share in the legal music download market? I doubt it. Again it looks like about 70%.
Apple is not a monopoly, merely the dominant vendor.
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Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Interesting)
Unless you buy DRMed Fairplay, that is not a monopoly. DRMed Fairplay (unfortunately all DRMed music) might be legal monopolies. No case has ever been decided about that per se but the general consensus is that Apple can keep others from using Fairplay. Also Apple's agreement with the music companies might even require it. If you bought nonDRMed AAC from iTunes, you can play that on any player that is capable of playing AAC. That means the Sony PSP, the MS Zune, the Sansa etc.
Also other competitors are free to create their own music stores. In fact other have. Most of them went bankrupt before and after iTunes existed. Amazon today sells MP3s and MS Zune Marketplace sells music online as well. Anyone is free to create a music store (as long as they have agreements with the music creators).
Also you limited the argument to one mode of distribution. You can get music without ever going to an online store from both legal and illegal sources. I have bought some music online but most of my music was ripped from CDs. Some people use P2P to get their music illegally.
My recollection is different than MS simply including a browser in their OS and trying to integrate it. I remember them threatening and strong-arming OEMs not to include Netscape as a browser on installs. They could include Netscape but their OEM prices would be affected. Also MS behavior was not limited to browsers. Intel wanted to develop a compiler for this new language called Java. MS hinted that they might favor AMD in any future Window development for x86 if they did.Sun licensed Java to MS with the written agreement that MS maintained compatibility with Sun standards. MS version of Java had 2 commands that were not in standard Java. Those kind of tactics were being exposed in the trial.
Wasn't the point of contention in your original argument about the music store and not the app store? Palm can't access iTunes software. However Palm could access nonDRMed music as well as iTunes metadata had (1) they written their own app or (2) written their own iTunes plugin (There is a public Apple API for this). Considering the amount of freeware plugins you can get for iTunes, it does not appear that to be a barrier for Palm to do. Some plugins even allow you to sync iTunes to another player.
But about the app store: These application only run in OS X on the iPhone. Apple as no obligation to create an app store for a competitor. Nothing prevents their competitors from creating their own stores. They just can't use Apple's iTunes software to do it as point of integration.
Had Apple acted like MS what they would be doing is threatening Walmart, Best Buy, Amazon, etc. not to do business with Palm. They would also be pressuing MS not to support Palm in Windows, trying to persuade Linux developers not to develop Palm software. That would be more akin to what MS did.
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MS was convicted not because they bundled a browser. They were convicted by trying to strong-arm their OEMs not to deal with Netscape among other tactics. In this context, people are complaining that Apple is preventing Palm Pre users from syncing with iTunes. That's not what Apple is doing. Apple is preventing Palm from using the tactic of spoofing Vendor IDs as a mean
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You don't understand the arugment[sic]. Does Apple have a monopoly on DRM Fairplay media?
That's not a relevant market with regard to antitrust law, the only aspect of law that makes Apple's actions potentially illegal.
The term is "significant barrier" to entry in the marketplace. The fact that others can and have created other online stores negates your arugment[sic] that Apple has a monopoly.
That's not how monopolies are defined.
Amazon has quite a successful online store.
Amazon and all other competitors combined are half the size of Apple alone. That's not particularly successful in terms of markets. This means Apple has a lot of influence on music buyers. If, for example, they were to blacklist an artist that would be a serious threat to that artist's ability to make money distributing music (not that the RI
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Insightful)
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And the Zune software won't sync my iPod... so should I sue Microsoft, for not allowing their software to work with my hardware?
If you make a "Zune-compatibility" mode for your iPod, where it claims it's a Zune, will you have to spoof Microsoft's vendor ID to get it to sync? Or will the software say "you say you're a Zune made by Apple? okay, as long as you know how to act like a Zune, we can talk".
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Okay, so Apple should face restrictions on what it can do because you're ignorant?
I just typed "online music store" into Google. The first entry was Amazon's store. iTunes was near the bottom of the page. There were also entries for Napster and Rhapsody.
Apple's got a large market share, but there is signif
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how about because they purposely locked down itunes so that the only way another device can sync with it now is to pretend to be it.
Microsoft locked down Word so that it only uses Word dictionaries. Firefox only uses Firefox plugins. Palm Desktop only syncs with Palm products. I'm not sure you understand the requirements of the definitions of anti-competitive and monopolistic behavior.
Dont forget apple recently tried to make a deal with palm in regards to the illegal practice of not hiring each others employees.
... so if a company does one thing wrong, everything they do must be wrong? I saw a guy speeding, should we also convict him for murder?
Palm should not have violated the USB-IF however its anti competitive to alter your program to purposefully lock out your competitor.
No, that's not how "anti-competitive" works. See, for example, the fact that Palm Desktop only syncs with Palm devices.
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Apple has said that iTunes "breaks even".
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Interesting)
It would be rather trivial for Palm to write their own sync app that, through Apple's own published public APIs, could sync with an iTunes library through software. Palm just wants a free ride. Apple are well within their rights to stick it to them.
iTunes SDK for Windows [apple.com]
Apple Script for OS X [dougscripts.com]
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That's completely retarded. DRM is out of the picture on iTunes store and if you insist on purchasing there, nothing keeps you from syncing your music library to whatever device you have.
There was no requirement for Palm to highjack Apple's ID just so that they can benefit from cheap engineering. RIM made the right decision and that is to not rely on software they dont control for their syncing.
What Palm did is sell a device to their customers and provided no guarantee as to the usability of the product, because they hack another company's software solution.
Don't kid yourself, Apples intentions have never been to share anything with anyone. The way it is now is because people objected to the insane enviroment that Apple tried to push. Tell me how the user benefits from being forced to use iTunes with iPod for example? Isn't it merely just another way to screw the consumer over by exposing him to only one store, thus killing competition without providing anything better? I'm speaking from my own experiences, and I used to own an iPod mini, back in the days. The
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Insightful)
Explain how you are forced by Apple to use only the one store for your music purchases.
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Informative)
Apple: you want this shiny little music player? Huh? You want it? Huh? Well then you have to change everything you own to Apples version
Reality check:
All Apple is refusing to do for Palm is let them integrate Pre into the main iTunes application. That would require Apple to publish and maintain a plug-in API for iTunes which would cost Apple money. Why should they?
Well, maybe someday a court will decide that Apple have a dominant position in the media player market, and further deiced that the "openness" described above is not sufficient to satisfy anti-trust laws. Then, and only then, will Apple be obliged to help others compete with their products.
Also bear in mind that what anti-trust regulators are really concerned about is using a dominant position in one market to strong arm your way into another. Apple has built the iPod/iTunes/iTMS tripod up from scratch, popularising the pocket MP3 player and virtually inventing the legal music download market, not by leveraging an existing monopoly. The only aspect that's even worth debating in that context is whether they're using iPod/iTunes/iTMS to strongarm their way in to the Phone market. Looks to me like the main reason for the iPhone's success is that previous smartphones (esp. WM) were pants - and if you think their harming the market ask yourself what the Palm Pre, Android or the various 3rd party WM skins would have looked like - or whether they would exist - without the iPhone shaking things up.
(*I should qualify that: HTC provide a calendar/contacts sync application for windows only - same story with firmware updates. Android is fairly hardware-agnostic, provided you're happy to use Google for calendar/contacts).
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Insightful)
All Apple is refusing to do for Palm is let them integrate Pre into the main iTunes application. That would require Apple to publish and maintain a plug-in API for iTunes which would cost Apple money. Why should they?
Um, no it wouldn't. Palm made their device compatible with iTunes. Apple didn't have to do a thing. Instead, they deliberately broke the compatibility.
You want to know what cost Apple money? Paying someone to re-write the iTunes sync so it wouldn't work with other vendors' products. If they'd done nothing, Palm's device would have continued to work fine with no effort from Apple.
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple can't break compatibility with existing iPods. If the Pre acts just like an iPod, there's no reason for the sync to not work no matter how many times it's updated.
Now, if the Pre isn't emulating an iPod correctly, then yes, compatibility might break on iTunes updates, but that's Palm's problem, and they will fix it.
However, making it impossible to "correctly" emulate an iPod without also reporting an Apple vendor ID was considered a low blow by Palm. There's a device ID and a vendor ID; if the device claims to be an iPod manufactured by Palm, it should act exactly the same as an iPod manufactured by Apple. Not syncing with it just because it's made by Palm only serves to maintain an Apple monopoly. There's no real explanation for it aside from that.
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people are obviously turn to Apple for support if iTunes doesn't sync right with their Palm. That will cost Apple money. After all, iTunes is an Apple product. Telling people, "It's the other guy's problem" never goes over well.
If you make round plugs and round holes, and somebody complains that their square plug doesn't quite fit correctly, tell them it's not your problem. If they're not a complete retard, they'll take their problem where it belongs.
If they bought some "round" plugs from someone else that are supposedly compatible with your round holes and it turns out they're slightly flattened so the fit isn't perfect, it's still not your problem.
However, if the other guy's plugs fit perfectly in your round hole, and you instal
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Apple had already written the support for various iPod models at various firmware releases. The functionality specific to a model and firmware version isn't going to change, because in order to change it Apple would need to change the iPod side of things as well.
If, for some reason, Apple decided to update the communication protocol on whatever older iPod hardware the Pre happened to be emulating, Palm would have to figure out the new protocol and support it eventually. But the old protocol would still be
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Apple is the Microsoft of MP3 players.
Not even close. You can step entirely outside the Apple ipod/iTunes ecosystem and still get a full range of music. If you step outside the MS ecosystem there are significant programs (games and important business software) you cannot run and significant pieces of hardware you cannot use or cannot use fully.
Or (now the DRM is gone) you even buy any tracks from the iTunes store and import them into another music manager which fully supports your not-Apple AAC music player
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If you step outside the MS ecosystem there are significant programs (games and important business software) you cannot run
Step outside of Microsoft and lose games? I don't understand. There are plenty of games for PlayStation 2, PLAYSTATION 3, and Wii.
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Why bring the DMCA into this? Apple hasn't sued Palm, nor have they brought in the law in any way. This is purely a technical fight between the two.
The Pre is lying and Apple is calling Palm on it. I fail to see how Apple is wrong.
And just because someone says MP3 or music and you hear "Apple" doesn't mean that Apple has any kind of (legally defined) monopoly.
In short, you're an idiot.
Re:apple - the most anti-open company (Score:4, Insightful)
Emulating another device to provide compatibility is perfectly acceptable
Except when you have signed a contract saying you wouldn't. The problem is that Palm decided to use Apple's USB Vendor-ID to identify the Palm-Pre, which is something Palm promised not to do in their contract with the USB-IF (Who hands out USB Vendor IDs). Palm violated existing contracts while attempting to emulate Apple's devices and Apple called them on it.
I don't think there is any reasonable argument for forcing Apple to let the Palm-Pre use their software.
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At the very least Palm would need to strip all the USB logos from all of their products.
That's probably all they can do, actually.
And it would be a real pain in the ass for Palm to do. They'd have to re-design their packaging and promotional materials to get rid of the USB logo, they may even need to edit the copy to remove some references to USB compatibility. This costs money and takes time. Then they have to recall all their product in the sales channel and all the promotional material. This costs Palm more time and money and it also costs time and money for their channel partners.
You think Sprint is going to be happy to round up a
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I'd like to think that it was less USB-IF being beholden to Apple, and more USB-IF being beholden to their own rules, which Palm agreed to when they joined... but that would be far too sensible. :(
Re:iTunes? (Score:4, Insightful)
You couldn't figure out how to make your iPhone play mp3s?
Box it up and return your computer to the store. You are too stupid to own a computer. Or a troll. Pick one.