Apple Tablet Rumors Again (Still?) 165
LSU_ADT_Geek writes "With a conventional netbook clearly out of the question, researchers for Piper Jaffray said Thursday there's mounting evidence to suggest Apple next year will introduce its own take on the market in the form of a tablet-based device that will sell for $700 or less."
Cool story bro (Score:4, Funny)
Sounds like the apple wheel
oblig. (Score:2)
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary [theonion.com]
Please stop these non-news rumours (Score:3, Insightful)
Rumours are not news. They belong on Digg. Please please /., try to keep the quality of the post high and avoid speculation like this. It makes the site so much more worth reading.
Re:Please stop these non-news rumours (Score:5, Insightful)
Rumours are not news. They belong on Digg. Please please /., try to keep the quality of the post high and avoid speculation like this. It makes the site so much more worth reading.
It was clearly labelled as a rumor: "Apple Tablet Rumors Again (Still?)". If it weren't, I'd have a much easier time seeing your point.
Sure, you could say that the holy absolute purity of the rest of Slashdot is forever tainted by the stain of the word "rumor" in this story but, eh, have you SEEN the rest of Slashdot? I think it'll be alright.
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One reason to post a story is to generate conversation. It doesn't have to be some mind twisting geeks only story, it can be fluff, it can be rumor or humor.
From what I heard, Sir Isaac Newton liked a good fart joke every now and then.
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...have you SEEN the rest of Slashdot?
I don't know what you're talking about. The new idle section is the pinacle of newsworthy news!</sarcasm>
Re:Please stop these non-news rumours (Score:5, Funny)
Apple bought a chip manufacturer. The iPhone is too small to surf the web and needs a real keyboard. All the cool kids have portables with 10" screens. Wouldn't it be cool if my Macbook had the iPhone's multi-touch input? My Apple shares are idling due to the global financial crisis; I better start some badass rumour to spur on the fanboys. It's Apple, they haven't introduced some magical product for a while now.
Re:Please stop these non-news rumours (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Please stop these posts about non-news rumours (Score:2)
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Rumours are not news. They belong on Digg. Please please /., try to keep the quality of the post high and avoid speculation like this. It makes the site so much more worth reading.
The diversity is what makes Slashdot worth reading. Frankly, that's all Slashdot's got.
Would You Like Some Cheeze with that Whine? (Score:2)
I can digg it. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd go for it, if... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'd go for it, if... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Have other people got some crazy whacky super-awesome cellular technology that I'm not aware of? I currently have HSDPA on "3" in the UK, and VOIP calls point blank do not work. I don't know any cellular technology that can sustain a VOIP conversation, or even come close.
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So why didn't the iPod Touch kill the iPhone?
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If apple says "this will kill the iphone," then it will kill the iphone. If apple says "You should buy this before you graduate you our big boy toy," people will skip the training wheels.
Then why didn't the iPhone kill the iPod Touch? It's amazingly obvious: the touch lets someone have a cool gadget when they can't afford the iPhone voice/data plan pricing. One device is an iPod, one is a phone, and there's still separate markets for each of them to be highly desirable.
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Offer a deal with newspapers so they can put content on the tablet in trade for a two year subscription. You know, similar to the iPhone/AT&T deal.
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Like I said before (Score:3, Insightful)
Like I said before, it will be sweet, groundbreaking, worth every penny and several hundred dollars more than a conventional netbook.
So it will not be a netbook competitor at all.
Newton 2 (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously as said above I can't see it selling that cheaply but I really did love the Newton despite its quirks. I still believe it died because it was just a little too far ahead of its time. Palm drove the last nail in its coffin with a smaller, lighter, more practical device. I would be interested to see what Apple could come up with for a tablet now with their focus on touch egonomics and a decade+ of hardware advancement.
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3rd party conversion (Score:5, Informative)
Axiotron Modbook [axiotron.com]
Note that I am not connected with Axiotron nor do I own a Macbook
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Hrm. I might go for this if it weren't running OS X (or rather Aqua). Can it run Linux?
Re:3rd party conversion (Score:4, Interesting)
If there's an active platform that can't run Linux, it must be very arcane. And Macs are hardly arcane. Nowadays the hardware is not that different from a PC.
I have a Motion tablet that runs Vista. That OS is every bit as bad as its reputation, but I put up with it because it's the only tablet OS with decent handwriting recognition. If I could similar software for Linux, I'd switch tomorrow.
And yes, I know about PenReader. Despite its claims, it does not handle handwriting. You have to draw out the letters one at a time. Easier to use an on-screen keyboard.
Mounting evidence (Score:4, Insightful)
That evidence being, apparently, the increasing number of analysts who all parrot "Apple may be making a netbook"?
Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see what Apple might come up with - but there are plenty of Mac rumor sites already available.
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Not only that, on the most recent conference call, when asked, Time Cook responded in way that seemed like he was thinking, "Oh no! Wait, how do I respond to this??" The same way a kid does
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Zen speaking: If you rumor it, they will build it.
As rummors pile up, odds of it becoming a reality increase.
I'll go with "untrue" (Score:5, Insightful)
Put simple - Tablets suck except for a very few niche uses... And even for those few uses, netbooks do the job cheaper and more conveniently.
So put simply, I'll consider this a completely bogus rumor, since Apple has better sense than to revive a dying-for-a-good-reason technology. They may have a few failures in trying to predict the next cool toy, but haven't made the mistake of recreating retro hardware since the Lisa.
Now, I mentioned netbooks above - It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Apple try to jump into that market (though they will no doubt ignore the "sub $500" as a defining characteristic of that class of device). Perhaps (though by no means certain) even with a flippable screen, giving users the option of using it in notebook-style or tablet-style mode. But an outright straight-up tablet, not going to happen.
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... since Apple has better sense than to revive a dying-for-a-good-reason technology. They may have a few failures in trying to predict the next cool toy, but haven't made the mistake of recreating retro hardware since the Lisa.
Perhaps, like the iPod, they're going to actually create the next big technology? Or, being positioned where they are in the industry, they may have figured out how to do it right and create a tablet/hybrid which actually catches on ... (yes, entirely speculative, but hey, so is the original article, eh?)
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Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Not really surprising when you think that the iPod [ministryoftech.com] was up against something like this Archos [sudhian.com]. It was a long time ago but I remember the Archos UI being really poor and you had to manually copy all your music across.
I
Re:I'll go with "untrue" (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, the iPod got to where it is by basically being the right device at the right time:
* Space - it had a lot of it. (Competitors had more, though)
* Size - it had a lot of space for its size (The Creative Nomad was bigger than a contemporary CD player. The iPod was much smaller - slightly thicker than a pack of playing cards). Other MP3 players in the same size had a pitiful handful of songs at best.
* Speed - Parallel port, serial port, USB1.1 suck for filling space. Great if you're only dealing with 128MB of memory, but lousy when you want to actually fill in gigabytes and have it take a reasonable amount of time. Firewire was the only option at the time.
* Market - MP3 players were niche at the moment. MP3-CD players were the item to get, but they're big (see size), and cumbersome (burning a CD... and having huge books of MP3 CDs to pick one to play). Apple got in early and rode the wave as MP3 players started getting mainstream (no doubt helped by Apple's marketing making everyone want one).
Apple released the iPod at the right time with the right combination of features that people wanted - a small player that holds a decent quantity of music that doesn't take all day to transfer. MP3 players were still pretty niche when the iPod was released (MP3s weren't, thanks to Napster, but people were listening via their computers). Apple got in during this time - either by luck or pure business savvy. A few years later and the iPod may have been the next Newton as the market gets flooded with new entrants.
The iTunes store came *MUCH* later (2003-ish or so), by Apple dragging the kicking and screaming music industry into it.
The problem is, netbooks are already mainstream, and the race to the bottom has stopped more or less because the bottom has been reached. Instead, now we see netbooks clamoring for the low-end laptop market with larger screens and higher prices. At best, Apple would be another competitor in the high-end netbook market, but probably not a very worthy one (it *IS* Apple, and they don't have the iPod advantage). Unless Apple comes up with something "must have" that redefines the market (at least that's Apple's strength... finding the few things that make people go "why didn't I think of that"?).
Oblig, (Score:4, Funny)
* Space - it had a lot of it. (Competitors had more, though)
And no wireless. Lame. [slashdot.org]
Re:I'll go with "untrue" (Score:5, Insightful)
laptops are becoming the next desktop. tablets and netbooks are nice to carry around with you.
carrying a laptop around is like going out with a baby. you need to take a bag of junk with you. a netbook or a tablet with nice battery life you just throw in your bag that you take with you anyway. and for the millions of people that commute on public transit it will be a nice way to pass the time. bigger screen to read books, better hardware for games, and you may be able to do some work and sync your docs.
what a tablet or netbook needs to do is not have a boot up time. my wife's iphone is always on. if i want 10 minutes of net time i don't want to waste 5 minutes of it waiting for a netbook to boot up
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it's still flaky even on windows 7 and there is no reason to have an OS like Windows or a distro like Ubuntu on netbooks.
you need something like iphone OS, android or another micro linux kernel for the always on ability. these things don't need the ability to run every app. apple will do it right where it's going to be an ipod/iphone on steroids but it will be too expensive
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I'd prefer to keep the full fledged OS, netbooks are suprisingly capable and I like the flexibility Ubuntu or Windows can offer.
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XP had horrid hibernation, but after SP1 Vista hibernates just fine for me.
Windows 7 isn't even released yet. Something not working on unreleased software doesn't bother me.
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Every laptop I have owned has taken just as long, if not longer, to come out of hibernation than to boot (suspend is a little faster). And for some reason it takes longer for networking to start working after coming out of hibernation compared to booting from scratch. And about a quarter of the time I come out of hibernation Client Side Caching ("Make files available offline") gets into this funky state causing any file access (offline or not) to take forever, requiring me to reboot anyway.
I use hibernation
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I just timed my NC10 coming out of hibernation, it took nine seconds to reach the desktop from the moment I hit the power button. Much faster than booting normally. It has 2GB of RAM installed, it has a 5400RPM HDD and it's been on for days, so I'm not cheating or anything.
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That is certainly all true of previous tablets, but the simple addition multi-touch really can change all that.
Re:I'll go with "untrue" (Score:5, Interesting)
The only reason I can see Apple doing any kind of tablet would be to get in on the eBook market. Just like the App Store, it would integrate directly into iTunes and make them even more money. That's the sort of stuff that fits Apple's style.
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I think Apple is very much interested in going after the e-book market. Sales of e-books are growing very rapidly, and right now Amazon essentially has a stranglehold on the market, at least in the U.S. As a Kindle owner, I welcome Apple bringing some serious competition into this area. Maybe it'll put some pressure on Amazon to open up to the ePub format.
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I know how much revenue Apple makes from the App Store ($95 million of $25 billion for the last three quarters, last time I checked)... I read Gizmodo' RSS feed daily, and there was story just last week - Jesus Diaz did a nice info graphic to represent it. [gizmodo.com] In my opinion, the app store makes much more than that, since it makes the iPhone that much more desirable. Having the most apps makes your platform very successful, just look at Microsoft. Anyway, I stand by my point. Taking on Amazon and getting int
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Since you've obviously never used a tablet, I figured I should offer the perspective of someone who has. Mine's convertible, but lives in tablet mode 85% of the time.
In point of fact, not only is it useful, but the idea that a netbook could substitute is laughable.
Why? I take a lot of meetings. In the 8 months, I've accumulated 1000+ pages of notes. With a tablet, they're searchable, organizable, and can contain embedded scans of the business cards. Much more convenient to write, especially while standing o
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Re:I'll go with "untrue" (Score:4, Insightful)
Put simple - that's why you're posting on /. instead of working for a company like Apple. They've already proven that tablets - which is what the iPhone essentially is, just in a smaller form factor - don't suck, and millions of consumers agreed. Tablets with a user interface done right, that is. This is not just a move to come up with a cool new toy, this is an acknowledgment of a growing market replete with a built in catalog of available applications that users actually want. And as a bonus, they can expand to users who want a Kindle but expect a but more for their bucks than just a reader. And I'm damn glad, since I put my Dad into the stock early and it's going to be my inheritance some day.
Since I predicted the iPhone... (Score:3, Insightful)
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=193127&cid=15847027 [slashdot.org]
Okay. That was probably dumb luck.
But if you look at the iPod Touch, and you look at where people are going with these days, you'll notice that the sales of netbooks are absolutely skyrocketing. [laptopical.com] Apple doesn't have any product that takes advantage of this new market. So, as a company dedicated to profit, they may make one.
My prediction: Macbook Touch. Atom Processor. Bluetooth, Wifi, also available with wireless broadband. $799 with no provider
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Considering that the current iPod Touch has video out already (although you need to buy a cable adapter to use it), I doubt they'll remove it in the upgrade.
The iPod Touch *is* a netbook. It just doesn't have a very flexible UI for general computing tasks.
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I was thinking DisplayPort or something useful. It may have a cheesy video out that shows what video is playing, but you cannot use a secondary monitor as a display on any of the iPod models.
Next-gen Newton (Digital Hub Interface) (Score:2)
How about a Next-gen Newton? Target a few niches, where large amounts of user input is not a big factor and use the same strategies as the iPhone to minimize the need to input lots of information. Just make sure the form-factor is very lightweight (A clipboard or a news magazine) and aesthetically pleasing. The form-factor will be key. People should be able to relax when they lounge about in their living rooms with this thing.
I'm only suspicious about the $700 bit. (Score:3, Interesting)
I've seen this rumor floating around from enough sources that I won't be surprised if it happens. That said, even though other rumored apple products have turned out to be true, it seems that the only thing that is off is the price -- apple prices these things for about 20% more than what analysts predict.
If Apple comes out w/ a tablet, I can easily see them pricing it at $999.
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What about a Mac Mini-tower? That's what I'm waiting for.
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way too expensive (Score:2)
the iphone is a hit because it's the same price or cheaper than competing cell phones. few months ago when i bought one for my wife i looked at the BB Storm. the data plan was more expensive and once you figured the cost of the extra storage it was the same price or $200 more than the iphone when adding up the price of the 2 year contract.
$700 for what is a netbook is way too much especially if you'll need to pay for a wireless data plan. you can buy $299 XP, Android or Ubuntu netbooks. WTF kind of magic ap
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Supposing the iTablet is an upscaled iPhone with a bigger screen and hardware keyboard, the economics should be the same.
You'll never know the true cost if you buy it on a 24-month plan, locked to a particular carrier. Apple can afford to subsidise the initial purchase cost if it makes its money through apps, music and videos you download from their online services. (cf. Console makers lose money on their hardware but make it up on each game)
Why clearly? (Score:2, Insightful)
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Exactly. Even if Apple themselves were saying it is right now (I haven't heard/read anything to that effect) they can still change their minds. Depending on how popular netbooks get, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see them come out with one in the next 1-2 years.
Re:Why clearly? (Score:4, Informative)
apple don't do cheap (Score:2)
if you want cheap (or even IMO normal) hardware don't wait for apple to bring it, they wont!
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With Apple being Apple, I think if they ever do venture down that road again, it will be because they have come up with a new and different method of licensing the software.
However, it's pretty unlikely IMO, given that Apple likes to maintain a very specific user 'experience', and allowing their OS to be used on potentially sub-standard hardware could undermine that experience and potential
heres a picture of it. (Score:5, Funny)
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What would be sweet... (Score:4, Interesting)
Apple's said they don't want to do a netbook, and when people think tablet, they think of a standard tablet-based laptop.
My personal theory is that it would be a Kindle-sized iPhone, though probably without the phone part (so I guess a Kindle-sized ipod touch). With the features of the next version of the os that's publicly known, there's no reason why you couldn't use the iphone interface to do anything you'd do with a netbook. Any apps that you might expect on a netbook would likely be written and sold in the app store pretty darn quick, like a basic word-processing app. If you couldn't stand to use the on-screen keyboard (which presumably would have bigger buttons for the bigger screen), then use a bluetooth keyboard.
That, as far as I can tell, would solve (to me, anyway), both the netbook *and* tablet issue.
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My personal theory is that it would be a Kindle-sized iPhone,
I'd put my money on that, too: I've found the iPod Touch a lot more usable as a web/email/games appliance than a netbook - one with a 20-30% larger screen would be killer.
like a basic word-processing app.
Maybe, not even that: if its packaged as a "tablet PC" then punters would expect handwriting recognition and an office suite. If, however, its positioned as an "iPod Max" then why would you expect to write more than a brief email message on it?
That's the problem with netbooks: they look like PCs, quack like PCs and you can do office work
Add an eInk screen and...magic. (Score:2, Interesting)
Think about it...all the features of a netbook you love, but the eInk display from a Kindle that allows you to send documents to it. Oh, the humanity!
Whining about Slashdot (Score:2)
Yeah, I'll probably get modded down for this.
Come on, Slashdot. This "news" is so old. When you've been scooped by Leo Laporte and John C. Dvorak on This Week In Tech TWO WEEKS AGO, you know you suck. Stay out of the rumor business. You're not any good at it. Stick to the cool tech stories that made you who you are today.
That said, this topic is kind of interesting for Apple fans. If Apple does put out a product like this, its probably going to have some pretty interesting functionality. Usually when
Dell Mini 10 or 12 with Ubuntu looking better.... (Score:2)
Re:Dell Mini 10 or 12 with Ubuntu looking better.. (Score:2)
That's why I've kept my 12.1" Powerbook, but it's EOL. Fan bearings are rumbling, audio jack doesn't work unless you get the connection just right, same with the powercord, and the backlight is extremely dim, and I'm starting to see enough Intel only stuff. Although once they went back to a dedicated video card in the new MacBook Aluminum, I've been tempted to get one this fall when 10.6 is released.
I've found that anything less than 12" is hard to use if you're coding. Especially these 9/10" widescreens
I don't know... (Score:2)
While I don't think it's out of the question that they'd make a tablet, I think people are right that we'll just end up with a next generation iPhone/iTouch.
The tablet market is competitive, but it's not huge. I think they'd have a good shot at the art crowd with a decent digitizer, but nothing they've shown so far (that I'm aware of) seems to be going in that direction. They seem much more focused on finger interaction and multitouch. On top of that, Apple isn't terribly desirable in business, which is
And why do people still pay attention to analysts? (Score:4, Insightful)
Almost every bit of information they have is second or third hand (a guy heard from a guy who heard from a guy). They are barely one step above a rumor site. Most of them don't have the expertise to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Industry Analysts who look at industry trends and give advice to executives can be useful but analysts for financial institutions (e.g. Gene Munster for Piper Jaffray) that are making specific predictions about product introductions have a (not so) hidden agenda. Get people to buy now on optimistic news and dump later when it proves to be bogus. Remember, they make money in both directions.
self fulfilling prophesy? (Score:2)
Anyone ever wonder if maybe Apple might see all these rumors, and interpret them as a large demand for a product, then create said product?
I wouldn't rule out the possibility that inital rumors were false, but got the heads talking in Cupertino.
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Re:way (Score:4, Interesting)
Their take on a Netbook as a tablet:
ARM processor, runs stripped-down iPhone OS, has a touchscreen, plays media, runs a couple apps at a time.
Sounds like a next-gen iPod Touch. The current one costs $230 to $399 on Apple's own website. A little bigger, and it's Newton: TNG.
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runs stripped-down iPhone OS
yeah, if it weren't for all that bloat in the OS, their phone might acually be successful... what they need is a fancier product that does even less
Re:way (Score:5, Insightful)
it would be one with apps that are USEFUL and not junk!
Tablet PCs never caught on because there's only 2-3 apps DESIGNED for tablets not made by Microsoft. The majority of apps on tablets in the real world I've seen are just VB programs for data entry with little benefits on a tablet versus a laptop.
Apple has the app store and it has multi-touch apps that all do cool stuff with the hardware... Tablet PC had a 7 year run all by itself and nobody stepped up with the must-have apps. A 10" iPod Touch, with access to all the iPhone/Touch apps existing right now, would take off. Not to mention the new apps that might work on an iPhone but really need more real estate.. like editing photos or web browsing.
Hardware wise, the current Touch probably supports a 10" screen in hardware so it would be really cheap and easy for Apple to release this. Rumor has also been that iPhone OS 3 has support for bigger screens and requires UI resolution independence so apps made for an iPhone or Touch will look correct on bigger screens.
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What, a mousemat?
What the Apple guy told me (Score:5, Interesting)
I work for a university, and Apple recently sent a guy to talk to our faculty about the future of technology. During question time I referred to the possibility of a Mac tablet so I could try to gauge his immediate expression. No clue from that, all I had to go on was his response that Apple is obviously aware that people are talking about the possibility of a Mac tablet, and they'll come out with one as soon as they can do a good quality one for less than six hundred bucks.
Of course, he also said our computer labs were obsolete, which was bullshit, so who knows what to believe.
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Of course, he also said our computer labs were obsolete, which was bullshit,
Interesting, calls for a cost-benefit analysis. How much do all the computers, wired ethernet, office space and IT compare with buying everyone a windows or linux netbook and putting in some Wifi? The ongoing IT and support staff has to be the biggest expense. Ten years ago, I was on a help desk at USC and you generally had to hold peoples hands, particularly the 40-year-olds who were coming back for their MBAs. But now, people are generally self-supporting, and if you make them have to walk a distance w
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It's pretty easy for us to determine that our computer labs are necessary, primarily because the students really like them. We know this from surveying them and from the ultimate metric: hourly head counts. Besides, our labs also get used as classrooms, for training, and for other IT-related events. There's no way we could replace them with a "Here's your laptop!" approach.
Re:What the Apple guy told me (Score:4, Funny)
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It's a little unfair to say that you need to use the computer labs preferentially to other rooms, at least in this context -- if everyone already had a laptop then *every* room would be a computer lab.
Now you might need special equipment that is best provided in the lab, or people may prefer to use the workstations there rather than their own laptops, etc. But it's disingenuous to suggest that simply because people are using the labs now means that the labs could not be largely replaced by some alternative
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It's pretty easy for us to determine that our computer labs are necessary, primarily because the students really like them. We know this from surveying them and from the ultimate metric: hourly head counts.
Yes, but that's because they are able to use the labs with zero or marginal cost. If you were to refund them the cost of the labs in their tuition (or stipend them a computation allowance, looks better on the aid applications), and then charge them to use the labs, would they make the same decision, or would they prefer independently buying their own system with the money?
Obviously people will still need the Sun workstations and other niche rigs...
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Most of them already have their own laptops, but in surveys they insist they want the labs anyway. And, as I mentioned, we do other things with the space. We're confident they're worth it.
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but in surveys they insist they want the labs anyway
What kind of a reason is that? Do they want a pony, too? Far be it for a tertiary educational institution to do something for the sake of efficiency that their students would disagree with, that never happens! :)
I was thinking though that the main reason we still have labs is because it's the only effective way to control how many installs of Minitab or SPSS (let alone Office) have to be licensed. On those grounds it's probably still justifiable.
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Of course, he also said our computer labs were obsolete, which was bullshit, so who knows what to believe.
When I first got to the university I attended (late 80's), they bragged they were advanced in computers, had 4 computers per student (at ~18K undergrad), and back then, not every student had a computer. Now I've heard it claimed that they have about 20 computers per student... and the students without their own computers are impossible to find. Assuming you always have bleeding edge computers in your labs... but no one needs them because everyone has a few computers of their own, at what point do the labs b
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On campus computer labs (Score:2)
"Of course, he also said our computer labs were obsolete"
I never bought into this idea either. :)
I'm a laptop owner who still likes using the campus labs
Sure, an average laptop isn't an obscene cost relative to college in general, but a top-of-the-line desktop is gonna beat that laptop in performance. Having such souped-up laptops rather changes the cost metrics, eh?
Some of the horsepower is really useful, for heavy-duty scientific-data analysis or something. In that case, the desktops are needed. Even if t
Re:no way (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sticking to an extra large iPod Touch. Right now the Touch is a stripped down iPhone and really there's not a lot of reason to buy it. Now that 9-10" 10x6 displays are dirt cheap, now would be the time to build an iPod Touch out of one. It would be bigger, but the Touch electronics and battery are really small.... it would be like the screen of current netbooks. Toss in the standard mini webcam and mic (again practically free now) for taking audio notes and using pictures. They'll be unlocking bluetooth in the gen 2 Touch soon, so for a 10" screen hopefully they'd open up the Apple keyboard for input.
Apple is committed to iPhone and the app store right now. I can't see any device smaller than a Macbook running the desktop OSX. They are also looking to roll their own chips now, so again hitting the low power tablet factor they don't have to share is definitely how they roll.
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Re:no way (Score:5, Insightful)