Ballmer Scorns Apple As a $500 Logo 1147
theodp writes "Speaking at a conference in NYC, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer did his best to refan the flames of the Mac vs. PC rivalry: 'Now I think the tide has really turned back the other direction [against Apple],' Ballmer said. 'The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment — same piece of hardware — paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.'"
It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hardly surprising... (Score:5, Insightful)
The price differential exists precisely because the head of Microsoft doesn't understand what it is about Apple software that causes many people to consider an Apple computer to be worth a few hundred bucks more than a similar-spec Windows machine.
you forgot (Score:5, Funny)
to whine about the mouse.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Insightful)
The $130 doesn't get you an OS that will run on commodity hardware. First you have to pay the monopoly fee, i.e. the first copy costs $630, the upgrades are $130.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Informative)
Let me introduce you to the hacintosh [psystar.com]. Macs have been nothing more than commodity PCs in a proprietary case since they switched to the x86/x64 platform.
In the case of notebooks, it is also true the Macbook chassis is vastly superior to practically any "PC" notebook vendor. However I am going Dell Precision rather than Macbook Pro for my next notebook for two reasons: 1. Dell offers WUXGA resolution and 2) Dell offers a three-button "mouse" (trackpointer and touchpad), and one minor reason (a "powerslice" external battery which will allow the PC to run a full 10-12 hours). The price I negotiated Dell down to is about the same as a Macbook Pro 15 but I'll have a better optical drive, a magnesium alloy case (as opposed to aluminum), more RAM, higher resolution (with RGB-LED backlight!), faster CPU, faster video chipset, backlit keyboard, and no retarded one-button mouse (touchpad/trackpointer). Oh, and accidental damage coverage and three-year warranty with on-site service (although no "tech" will touch my notebook - I will insist on receiving the part only in the event that I need service).
I'd love to have gone with a Macbook even though it's commodity hardware - the Macbook is lighter and they're pretty, but on the other hand, I'm not retarded. I want two or three mouse buttons. Also, I'm not blind. I want high resolution because I design graphics, and now I am getting into embroidery and clothing design for a hobby. I need something better than 1440x900. Heck, my old (circa-1991) Latitude did 1680x1050, and my older Thinkpad had a three-button mouse. Jobs, please enter the new millennium. Most Mac users are at least somewhat computer-literate, certainly more capable than most Windows users, and can deal with a multi-button mouse/touchpad/trackpointer.
Oh, and Ballmer? My real work will be done in Linux. Windows will be only for games and embroidery design (I need to convert from .svg and .ai to .sew), and if I can get the embroidery software to talk to the machine while running under crossover office, so much the better - I may not need Windows at all. :D
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Informative)
and no retarded one-button mouse (touchpad/trackpointer)
The trackpad is a multitouch device. If you place two fingers down and click its a right click. If you place two fingers down and drag its a scroll. Take a look at your notebooks buttons after two years. There's probably a hole worn in to the left button while the others look brand spankin new. I hated the one button crap until I figured that out. Now I have a macbook. I guess I'm tarded now.
Take one apart (Score:5, Informative)
"it is also true the Macbook chassis is vastly superior to practically any "PC" notebook vendor."
It is most assuredly not true. I have a 2 year old MBP, and I replaced the hard drive last fall.
Let me tell you that is a nontrivial exercise because of a few factors:
1) The case is beautiful, but you must remove 20+ screws and you have to take the entire notebook apart to change the hard drive
2) The screws are very tiny, and the case doesn't really fit together that well. If you don't get just right, the clever magnetic catch doesn't release properly. Then you get to take it all apart again.
3) The cables are held in place with adhesive tape (!!!!) inside.
4) The holder for the hard drive was clearly built for cost and is not well engineered.
5) The wiring overall inside is cheaply done.
6) I've taken apart a Mac Mini, and the construction of the MBP internally is similar.
So I use my MacBook pro, and I like it, but I compared it to the laptop work provided me (a high-end HP).
1) Things like hard drives and memory come apart with no screws. They simply pop out without disassembling
2) There is no tape on the inside of a comparable HP laptop. If you have to disassemble it, it's pretty easy, and there are not 20 screws in the entire machine. The wiring is done far more intelligently.
The HP is simply engineered better than the MBP. Now I'm not saying every HP laptop is well engineered and put together, but the laptops that in the same price range as the MBP are simply better machines.
Re:Take one apart (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Take one apart (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people I know don't buy a laptop concerned about opening it up and poking around inside. If I were making the GP statement about Mac laptop chassis, it'd be referring to:
1) Better keyboards than most laptops (this is partially due to better software, but still important)
2) Smaller + lighter
3) Better port positioning. No having to close the lid or lean way over to try to plug things into the back.
4) The trackpad+scrolling (again, partially software-solution with the scrolling, at least it's a lot better than my dell laptop's wonky attempt at having a separate scroll area on the side of the trackpad)
5) The latches and power connector (the magnetic power connector is very handy, and the power brick+extension too, as long as you didnt get the one revision that was huge and super-hot)
I've never needed to open up my mac laptops beyond removing the sony exploding battery to put in the free replacement.
Even so, I wouldn't expect a mac laptop to be as easy to get around inside as a HP or Dell that's twice as big. I'm also not sure I would call a laptop twice as big and heavy "simply better engineered", but I guess it depends on what your priorities are.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Macs have been nothing more than commodity PCs in a proprietary case since they switched to the x86/x64 platform.
Yup, a commodity PC with bluetooth std, low power components, display brightness controlled by OS, working power management, extremely quiet, ah I give up, most of you lack the ability to differentiate any two computers from any manufacturer, and will never try.
Look, coffee makers and toasters are commodities too, but there's a helluva difference between $10 and $200 ones. :)
Same goes for about any product, as the price goes up, you generally are looking at totally different features. A $200 toaster ought to bake a freaking casserole for me, perfectly. You can't just write off expensive variants of cheaper products because they all make coffee, they all make toast, they all have four wheels, all show my TV signal, they all have the same system architecture, etc. There's so much more to it, and the most demanded features often get pushed down into cheaper products (the real commodities). Don't underestimate that effect, at some point a dual slot toaster might have been ritzy, who knows
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
About the one-button mouse: Apple's "Mighty Mouse," introduced in 2005, has no visible button, but can be configured in software to have 1, 2 or 3 buttons.
Alas, it never really worked right in 2-button mode. Specifically, if you have your index finger resting on the left side of the mouse, and press the right side of the mouse, it registers as a left-click rather than a right click. So you have to remember to lift your finger(s) off the left side of the mouse before right clicking every time. It drove me batty.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm thinking of inventing a one pedal car. Physically, not functionally; I mean that would just be silly.
To disengage the clutch, you press the pedal three times in quick succession. The engage the clutch, four times in quick succession. To increase the engine speed, two groups of three taps, and to decrease it, three groups of two taps.
The brake? That's important - you wouldn't want to run into anybody's arse, at least figuratively, and so it's configurable. Either you you type out "stop" in morse code or tap long-short-long-long-long-short while selecting any tune that has "Stop" in the title on the onboard mp3 player, provided you downloaded it legally from iTunes. Death to pirates, mwahahahaaha.
One other thing you might like to consider: The last time France lost a war was before macs had two button mice. That last time Germany started one was before macs had two button mice. And yet, still people mention those things. Go figure.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Funny)
I agree. It's offensive of Ballmer to say that that Apple sells a $500 logo.
It's worth at least $750-800.
My loaded MacBook Pro was $4200. That's at least 3 grand in status that I can lord over the sad sacks in my Caribou Coffee Shop.
And worth every penny in my improved self-image and ability to strike up conversations with cute girls with eyebrow piercings. I didn't get that kind of play with my Lenovo, I'll tell you that.
It doesn't go anywhere past "Aren't Apples great? They have an almost "holistic" approach to computer design, don't you think?" but still...
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if the hardware is equal the software surely is not. The $130 price point quoted above is for an upgrade -- something Microsoft charges anywhere from $90 to $160 for on the desktop, depending on version. But that doesn't tell the whole story as Macs include a lot more software in-the-box, enough to make it useful without buying anything else. Once I get done buying antivirus ($50) and back-up ($80) software for my Windows PC I'm already eating well into the so-called Apple Tax ... and that's before we talk about maintenance costs. Where Microsoft puts in applications that are clearly checkbox quality, Apple's bundled applications are often superb -- similar to things I have to pay hundreds of dollars for on Windows. All this adds up to significant value in the software package.
But none of this is or was a primary motivator for me. No, it was maintenance costs that drove me to try Apple again in 2001. Windows installations were requiring significant maintenance every 3 months, like clockwork, and total failures requiring from-scratch rebuilds were near universal within 18 months. I had hoped that XP would improve things, and it did from the standpoint of corrupted disks, but malware costs with XP have been out of sight.
OS X has been a dream come true in terms of maintenance -- there are glitches, but so far none have taken more than 90 minutes to solve, most take only a couple of minutes, and the sum total of such glitches over eight years I can count on my fingers (though it does take both hands). I have never had to rebuild a Mac from scratch! I am still amazed at that fact. Time savings in a single year completely swamp any extra money I pay to Apple for hardware.
Then there are the little things. Let's say that fifth year comes around and I buy a new laptop to replace one that's really old-in-the-tooth. Bringing the new one on-line requires connecting it to the old one during set-up and waiting for data to transfer between them. When you get done the new one is a newer, shinier version of the old one -- all applications and documents are transferred neat-as-you-please. The first time I did this my jaw dropped; the process typically takes many hours with Windows because it's effectively impossible to transfer application installations due to the registry.
It's things like that which will keep me buying Macs. Real thought and effort goes into making them work well long-term. Much longer hardware life coupled with much lower maintenance costs equals huge savings in my book.
YMMV, and probably does. I find Windows indispensable in some areas and still have plenty of Windows boxes around. Still, the Macs are workhorses that do their jobs and let me spend my time doing what I bought the computer for rather than just trying to keep it running. I'll take more of that, thanks.
Maybe Win7 will be an improvement. Vista sure wasn't, what a disappointment.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple's product line up has less offerings than dell, so Dell has some price points that Apple doesn't compete at.
Though they may not realize it I think that's the biggest problem people have with Mac prices. Apple does not offer as wide a range of computer lines as Dell and other OEMs do. You can't get a tower Mac, one that's expandable/upgradeable for under $2000, I just checked the Apple store online and the cheapest Mac Pro is $2499. At the low end there's the Mac Mini, then there's the all-in-one iMac desktops. If you compare the prices of the Mac Pro with similar offerings from Windows OEMs they aren't as expensive as many make out to be though.
Falcon
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
People don't compare like hardware because Apple doesn't offer anything within their price range. They STILL after over 12 years DO NOT HAVE A HEADLESS MID RANGE MAC.
You have no idea how many sales Apple loses for this very reason. So you either toss away a perfectly good monitor and get an iMac or you pay a ton of money for a PowerMac.
Apple is really screwing themselves. Virtually every single person I know who I've tried to convert to a Mac has refused because they don't want the expensive crap Apple is s
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Insightful)
What i've found with apple is if you start with a mac and try to find a PC that's as close as possible to it you will indeed get similar prices.
On the other hand if you start with a list of requirements and find both a mac and a PC to fit that list the mac will often end up far more expensive because you have to buy far more than you need in some areas to get what you require in others.
Do you really require server class processors and support for massive ammounts of memory or did you choose the mac pro simply because it is the cheapest mac with exapansion room.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Insightful)
> On the other hand if you start with a list of requirements and find both a mac and a PC
to fit that list the mac will often end up far more expensive..
Exactly. Raise your hand if you NEED a Xeon with ECC memory on your desktop..... and you aren't a a very narrow band of major scientist, engineer, etc. who need lots of throbbing power and yet don't have access to a compute cluster. Almost by definition Apple has restricted their desktops to people spending OPM (and where the other people are idiots) or people with more money than brains.
The Mini is just a sad joke and the i* stuff is all in one crap about as expandable, customizable, etc as a toaster where you upgrade by forklifting in a whole new stack of machines. And people wonder why Apple's corporate penetration is non-existent. Corporations will throw a couple to the art dept if they bitch and whine enough, but that's it.
It's almost like Apple WANTS to keep the Mac a small exclusive club. Which is the truth. Apple is selling a premium brand experience and if it ever threatened to become mainstream the value would disappear.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Who the hell actually expands and upgrades their PCs these days, though? This isn't 1997, you can't just buy a computer and just replace the motherboard and CPU every 2 years. Unless you play a lot of video games (in which case Macs are not really an option), I do not see why you would need to upgrade a machine if it had decent specs when you bought it. It's a pain to even add RAM these days, since by the time you get around to it, the type required will already be obsolete and expensive. And really, just about everything you might need to add is available as a USB device.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
CPU notwithstanding, that machine isn't remotely comparable feature-wise to any Mac built in the past five years or so, much less comparable to the MacBook Pro. It only has FireWire 400, its video is VGA-only, and it has no built-in camera. The MacBook Pro has FireWire 800 and dual-link DVI, has a MUCH better GPU, has a built-in camera, etc. The T61p just isn't in the same league.
The advanced docking station would cost you about another $300-$350 to give you DVI, and AFAIK you would still have a much slo
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Is there a gas leak in here? (Score:3, Insightful)
I wouldn't take Vista for free but I happily paid a $500 'logo tax'
Why can't people just prefer apple, and not be fanatical about it? Oh, right, because then that wouldn't justify the increased expense.
Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.
Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.
When I switched from Windows to OS X and got my MacBook Pro I first compared it's price to those of Windows OEM laptops and the prices were comparable. While an HP laptop cost about $50 less a Dell cost about $200 more for similarly configured laptops. So I didn't pay extra. I've had my MBP for about 20 months now and in that tyme I haven't had nearly as many problems with it as I have had with the Windows, or Linux, PCs I've also had.
Falcon
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:4, Insightful)
I understand that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", but my personal experience with post-iMac G3 Apple products is that they haven't been nearly as reliable as the machines I put together myself. My iPods, Apple IIs, and older Macs all keep going like a Timex watch though.
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:4, Funny)
A couple of weeks ago, I had to replace the battery in my timex watch.
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:5, Interesting)
I, on the other hand, bought a refurbished PowerBook 5 years ago and had zero problems with it. The only reason that I upgraded to a new MacBook Pro has been that I needed a larger disk and the 4GB of ram along with the ability to run Java 6. This was in January and I have had zero problems with it.
I understand that there are those that seem to just run into problems with their Apple products. There are always the occasional bad batches.
I like the Apple Macintosh systems, because I am a former NextStep developer. I have owned Apple computers since Mac OS X first came out. Before that, I have owned various PCs running Microsoft DOS and Windows. I have even tried Linux.
I am by no means a fanboi, but am sick of hearing people who bitch and moan about the price of a Mac or that Apple does not open up Mac OS X to run on a generic Intel system. One of the reasons that Apple's systems work so well is that they control the hardware as well as the software.
If you think that Apple's prices are too high, then don't buy one. Do you bitch and moan that a Mercedes is too expensive when you are buying a car? Or do you look at cars that are in your price range?
BTW: I got over 5 years use out of my PowerBook before I desired to upgrade to a MacBook Pro. I think that I definitely got my money's worth.
You're doing it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't calculate the Mac tax by comparing similar PC and Mac systems, you calculate it by comparing the PC you would buy with the Mac you'd have to buy.
Re:You're doing it wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't calculate the Mac tax by comparing similar PC and Mac systems, you calculate it by comparing the PC you would buy with the Mac you'd have to buy.
After dealing with all the problems I had with Windows PCs as well as Microsoft wanting to treat me like I'm a criminal I did not want to get another Windows PC.
Falcon
Re:You're doing it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
You calculate the value of a PC by how long it lasts (time and usefulness) compared to the price you paid. I still have a useful 2001 G3. After eight years it comes out cheaper than any PC.
When you keep on buying the cheapest you start to forget what value is.
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:5, Interesting)
You must have been looking at the wrong Dell one then
Yea, Dell makes it harder to find a computer than Apple does. Does a buyer want a Home/Home Office system, a small to medium business system, or a large business system? Of course there are other choices. And they all come with different configurations and different prices. However when I looked there was 3 Mac laptop lines, MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro. It's quite easy to see which one a buyer would want to buy. I just checked Dell again. Home and Home Office does not have a 17". Small Business has three, the lowest price one is $600 whereas the other two start at $3405, $700 more than the 17" MacBook Pro. Now for large business, there are 2, the Dell Precision M6400 [dell.com] with a 2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 17" UltraSharp(TM) WUXGA (1920x1200) RGB LED Display, 4.0GB, DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM, and 320GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM with Windows XP (which is being End of Lifed) cost $3,168. The MacBook Pro with the same configuration is $2800. What about the other one? Instead of XP it comes with Redhat Linux [dell.com] and cost $3090 for the same cpu, graphics, and hdd.
With the exception of the $600 laptop all of the laptops above cost more than the 17" MacBook Pro. You may say "but you looked at 17" laptops". Yes I did. One of the things I got it for, photography, the larger screen is better. For photography I also want a big hdd and high resolution display as well as a fast processor.
Falcon
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.
As someone who doesn't live his life on his laptop, four features, the aluminum chassis, backlit keyboard, and bluetooth and wifi that work correctly almost 100% of the time, the extra $900^H^H^H
:-P
Okay, I lie a little, I know I paid too much, but the features that made me choose a Macbook Pro (in 2007, before aluminum chassis came on Macbooks) over another OEM's Windows PC were easily worth maybe 400 of my extra dollars.
Also, with regards to the AC above you, I much prefer Vista to Leopard
Re:Is there a gas leak in here? (Score:5, Insightful)
I prefer Apple, and I don't have to justify the increased expense to you.
It is worth the extra coin to me, and you can do whatever makes you happy.
What's the problem?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
Protools is the reason why every popular band's songs sound like overproduced shit. Protools has led to copypasted, phoney-sounding crappola which is not worthy of being called "music". Protools takes the soul out of recording.
What a stupid fucking thing to say. Pro Tools has nothing to do with why popular band's songs sound like overproduced shit. For that, you can turn to the producers, who in turn get their opinions from the marketplace. So far, people keep buying up the garbage that the major labels have been pushing, so guess what? It's going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.
If Pro Tools alone were the culprit, then ALL of the music being produced (Indie bands, Barbershop, whatever) would sound like overproduced shit. It doesn't. And since most of this music is recorded straight into Pro Tools these days, I guess we can eliminate Pro Tools alone as the sole reason popular music is shitty.
Instead, I think what you are getting at is that non-linear editing is making music homogenous, and taking the life (soul?) out of it. This could be a valid argument. It's too bad you didn't make it.
And yes, Pro Tools does run on Windows, including Vista. It is also pretty unreliable, at least when you are dealing with the TDM systems. The Macs run much more smoothly, and are much easier to troubleshoot when things (invariably) go wrong. Windows does have the advantage of being able to chase Unity though...
I'm not pulling this out of my ass; I have almost a decade of experience in the industry, and as I type this, I am mixing a commercial (in Pro Tools, on a 5 year-old Mac) for delivery on Tuesday.
I will agree with you on one thing though: Pro Tools is overpriced. If you want real sticker shock, try looking into Digidesign's hardware crossgrades. *Shudder*
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure he's looking at it from the view of, "Every computer in the world should be running Windows!"
I'd say he may be subconsciously thinking of Linux...Same hardware + linux = cheaper than with OS/X or Windows
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I found it amusing to repeat Ballmer's quote, but change it slightly.
Original quote:
Changed slightly:
CEOs of technology companies should be careful not to throw stones in glasshouses.
Re:developers (Score:4, Funny)
Isn't he down to developers, developers? They just laid off a bunch.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not saying that denying your family iPods and iPhones constitutes some kind of spousal abuse or child abuse. But I am saying that this attitude is counterproductive as a corporate leader. Your family and your market is telling you something about the kind of products they enjoy using and will pay money for. Instead of listening, and producing products that emulate the best qualities of Apple's products, you're trying to tell your family and your customers that no, you don't really want the things you think you want. You actually want what we're giving you.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Insightful)
> "Here's a bonus tacked on to the top of your salary. It is earmarked for you to spend on our competitors' products. What am I missing?
The PR disaster, of course.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Interesting)
I find it very telling that Steve Ballmer won't let his kids use an iPod, and Bill Gates won't let Melinda use an iPhone.
I do too: it means Bill has more porn than he can watch in a lifetime. That's only explanation I have for being able to flat-out tell the wife that she can't have something you can trivially afford just because you don't like it, rich guy or not.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell me. What does OSX have that Linux or Windows on a PC doesn't?
Actually a backup capability which really works...
You are not even forced to upgrade to a higher version of the same operating system for a half working restore...
Unix tools out of the box,
No file locking, which makes it important if you do some serious development!
No registry which is the root of many evils in windows.
A system administration frontend which does not try to make you insane by distributing its functionality over 15.000 ui dialogs.
User Access Control which actually works as expected!
A filesystem which does not fragment as hell in serious development tasks.
A real working distributed component framework all the infrastructure is built upon which actually is usable!
It does not thrash my harddisk for minutes after bootup with tasks hidden by the process explorer (happend to me in vista)!
It does not lock my ui half a minute after showing it because it needs to load other things, und just tries to give the impression of being usable while it clearly isnÂt.
It comes with SSH and VNC and Xwindows out of the box.
The file sharing capabilities and printer sharing capabilities are superior thanks to Rendevouz!
Dashboard actually is usable instead if trying to pointlessly shove the widgets into the working area of many people!
It has a browser which follows web standards which are newer than 2003!
It has users who do not insist of using a 10 year old browser despite being numerously the victims of worms and virii induced by the shortcoming of this browser!
Not that he's far off the mark, but... (Score:5, Funny)
Additional Ballmer comments... (Score:5, Funny)
"And, they keep changing the OS and user interface faster than we can copy it! Bastards"
Brett
Misdirection (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Funny)
It's called FreeDOS [freedos.org], but it's a product made by some commie bastards copying the work of honest American workers, the popular and much loved MS-DOS. It's also "Open Source" which is commie talk for "hacking tools", so don't allow your child to use it or he'll become a dirty, smelly commie hacker.
Just stay with the products of honest American companies like Windows Vista, you support our economy, you spit on the face of those commie bastards, and you get a solid, reliable product as only good ol' American craftmanship can produce.
I've also heard some rumors of a "Lenix" OS or something, made by some finnish commie but trust me, son, you don't wanna piss off the boys at the NSA by using that. I've even heard it includes some sort of "manifesto" with it, fucking commies, always trying to brainwash you with their commie crap.
Re:Misdirection (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, I'd probably be able to SAVE in doing so, since refurbished Macbooks and Mac Pros can run cheaper than new Dells and carry the same quality and warranty policies as their off-the-shelf products. All I know is that my next notebook is absolutely going to be a Macbook or a Macbook Pro. I'm done with Windows-only machines.
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple is any better? It's not like MS sues people for running windows on non-standard hardware. It's not like MS refuses to 'license' applications for windows mobile. It's not like MS requires you to become a paid developer to write applications for their mobile OS either.
I'm no MS fanboy, but i'm no huge apple fan either. Both do their share of questionable things but I'd have to say that MS is actually the more open of the two.
And really, one look at the prices and specs of the new mini's should tell you that apple's grossly overpriced. I can buy a better specced *laptop* for less than the cost of a mini.
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Interesting)
My reply was to a comment about business practices. Just because someone has the "right" to do something doesn't make it a fair or acceptable business practice.
Furthermore, the hole we've dug with "licensing" software might make it possible for them to require you use their hardware but that's actually up for debate in the courts right now.
My original point stands - MS will not sue you for installing their OS on whatever hardware you want. They may have their faults but MS does far, FAR less to limit what you can do with their software/hardware then apple.
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Funny)
STOP!
Kernel Time!
End of the world (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm agreeing with Balmer... so hell has frozen over.
I've better go dump all my money while I can. Maybe I'll get a mac.
As opposed to... (Score:5, Insightful)
As opposed to paying twice for the same, crappy OS...
I suppose it would be better, in a moment like this, to look for free alternatives... right?
and with that same philosophy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As much as I hate doing so, I have to agree with Ballmer.
These large banks made a real mess of our economy and I reckon it'll take a long time to work things out. The way I see it, the economy grew too fast on nothing but hype, similar to the dot-com era. Except this time, it was much bigger and touched a lot more people.
The government is going to be pumping money into the system to keep it from collapsing before the reality of our economy can come closer to the myth that was pushed the last few years.
This
Buy Apple Stock Now! (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously...this guy has a long track record of saying absolutely moronic shit, why does anyone take anything he says seriously? He will fucking kill Google right?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As I recall he was laughing at the idea of selling the 1st gen iPhone for $700, and telling them to lower their prices and at least add 3G. And they kind of did, which means Ballmer was kind of right.
He's not totally wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:He's not totally wrong (Score:5, Funny)
Please note: the following comments are not about you personally; I do not know you. The comments are a broad-strokes response to anyone who makes this argument.
So, congratulations. You saved $100 for the privilege of spending $600 on games in the life of the OS installation, wasting 1000 hours in the interim, severely limiting your social life and development of your social skills, increasing your later-life health-care costs due to lack of exercise and poor nutrition, adding another $75 to your electric bill and 600 pounds of carbon emissions to the environment due to the energy usage while you're playing those games on your high-powered gaming system.
If you love games, great. But from a more holistic perspective, it's a dubious argument.
Re:He's not totally wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
How exactly is reading a book any more productive than playing a game? How is it mutually exclusive with family time? What does the world benefit from me writing or painting amateur crap that no one wants to look at?
Time enjoyed is never wasted. Just because you can spend time gardening and get a tomato doesn't make it superior to spending time playing games. I can just buy a tomato, spend my time playing games, have more fun than I would gardening, and I come out ahead.
So really, my point is, playing games is productive time. It's product is fun. Not that I hate gardening or spending time outside. I just get sick of this "my leisure activity is better than your leisure activity" bullshit. No, it's not.
Ballmer -1 Troll (Score:5, Insightful)
Ballmer is just trolling. He knows that Apple offers real value because OS X is a better operating system than Windows, which means that Apple has essentially taken away the high-end PC business away from Microsoft.
He should know that trolling isn't going to bring those high-end customers back to Windows. Maybe he does, who knows?
Microsoft has repeatedly chosen to patch Windows instead of rebuilding it from the ground up as a modern operating system, the way Apple did with OS X. They should have known 8 years ago that this was the wrong strategy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple offers real value because OS X is a better operating system than Windows
Prove it. For me it may be since OSX is UNIX, but the way I see it, for most people one's a stupidly bloated system that runs all their apps, and the other's a stupidly bloated system that only runs special versions of some of their apps.
Apple has essentially taken away the high-end PC business away from Microsoft.
Prove it. I've yet to hear about a large business standardizing on Apple products, I've yet to hear about a serious gamer using Macs, so I'd like to know which definition of "high-end" are you using, and the stats backing up your claim.
Microsoft has repeatedly chosen to patch Windows instead of rebuilding it from the ground up as a modern operating system, the way Apple did with OS X. They should have known 8 years ago that this was the wrong strategy.
Interesting that they still maintain m
Re:Ballmer -1 Troll (Score:5, Insightful)
None of your reasons is meaningful because you fail to consider the fact that Micrsoft used anticompetitive practices and developer lock-in to leverage an inferior product into the dominant consumer and enterprise OS. Businesses use Windows because their IT supports it, developers support it, OEMs support it, ad nauseam. It's not because it's a better product--it's because everyone and their mom has been stuck with it, like lousy VHS tapes. There are numerous examples in our economic history that show that the dominant technology is not always the "best."
What Microsoft has failed to recognize for the past 8 years is that Steve Jobs' Apple Inc. isn't interested in playing that game any more. He is way too busy pushing Apple in the direction of emerging consumer technology. He wants Apple to not lead market share per se, but to lead the direction of the market. That's what the iPod and iPhone did. That's what Jonny Ive's design has done. I find it hilarious that people talk up all these competitors (Nokia, RIM, LG, Samsung, and Palm for the iPhone, and Creative, Microsoft, for the iPod), and say how they now offer better features and hardware than the Apple products they wish to "kill." They forget that before Apple even broke those markets wide open, NONE of those companies made jack SHIT. Where was the Zune before the iPod? Where was the Storm or Pre before the iPhone? Where was any of all this sudden innovation in hardware design before Apple made their mark? The competitors play catch-up because they lack the vision to lead. They are too busy resting on their laurels and squeezing every last dime out of the consumer. If Apple costs more (and I'm not necessarily convinced one way or another), I'm willing to pony up to support a company that has the balls to lead, because in the long run we're all the better for it.
The whole tech industry and the consumers who use their products owe a huge debt of gratitude to Apple for lighting a massive bonfire under the collective asses of all the industry competitors. No other company in the past decade has done more to set a fierce competitive landscape in the realm of hardware, software, and product design. If it weren't for Apple we'd still be stuck with shitty Windows Mobile on 2" tiny non-touchscreen devices that looked uglier than a crack-addled stepmom on an alcohol binge.
Re:Ballmer -1 Troll (Score:4, Funny)
What has OS X been doing for years that Windows 7, which hasn't been released yet, can't, which makes it so superior?
I fixed your sentence.
But the Air is "cheaper" than the Adamo... (Score:5, Interesting)
Turns out that for only $300 MORE, the Air will provide you with a CPU that's 400 MHz faster, the 128 GB SSD and dedicated graphics, along with OS X Leopard and the ability to run Windows Vista (probably better than the Adamo can).
Aren't CEOs of software megaconglomerates like Microsoft supposed to do this kind of research before talking smack?
Ballmer, open an Apple machine (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no match as far as how clean and robust is the build, compared to other top-brand PCs. Absolute absence of flying around cables, top of the line electronic components, maximum care down to the very little details.
But this is a known thing to everyone that actually opened an Apple and other brand-name PCs.
Ballmer,
He has been able to drag Microsoft, once perceived as technology source with fairly large following, down to the nobody-cared status, as far as all the new technologies being introduced.
One failure after another, with Microsoft not being able to push new technologies even in their own niche (see Vista fiasco for one).
The slashdot monkey island is in Riot (Score:3, Interesting)
Man, it's a hailstorm of flung turds already and we are only a few posts in.
All the fanbois calm down now....
Ballmer has shown that he in public seems really out of touch, his views on the iPod and iPhone show how what he says isn't the market view. I suspect that he has to say those things, and deep down is actually pretty scared about the iPhone etc. But he can't come out and say, "damn, they really target their niche really well", because that's not his style. Microsoft targets it's niche equally well, business is a sea of Dells running MS OS's, so it's not like he doesn't know about marketing to your core.
Once again he has missed the point, apple machines do cost more, but you get a unique product. There are precious few PC's out there that are concerned with how the back of the unit looks or cable management, etc. Apple is selling a higher caliber piece of gear than the generic best-buy special. Take a look at the apple keyboard vs. any other PC keyboard. You may or may not like the design, but the differences are clear.
With a mac product, you can run ALL software, the converse is not true. That's worth some money to lots of people.
Like any unique product, you will pay for it. but for a lot f people it is worth it.
Ballmer has to say those things regardless of what he believes inside, he's the voice of Microsoft.
Sheldon
Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, I'm no fan of Apple. I have never owned a Mac, and I haven't programmed on one since 1986. But, when you pay $500 extra for a Mac - if you do - you're getting more than a logo. The hardware is significantly better than average PC hardware. But more significantly, the OS actually works. Personally, I hate it - I intensely dislike the fact that when you get under the covers, it looks like UN*X but it isn't UN*X in a lot of ways that matter. It's essentially NeXT Step, and I hated that, too.
But, it works, and Windows really doesn't. Personally, I think Ubuntu or Debian are much more user-friendly and productive, and you don't have to spend $500 extra for them - but you put a Mac OS box next to a similarly specced Vista box and ask, 'will the user of the Mac be $500 more productive over the life time of the machine than the user of the PC?' the answer has to be 'hell, yeah!'
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:5, Informative)
How is OS X which is certified Unix (http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html) not Unix?
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launchd [wikipedia.org]
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:4, Informative)
it looks like UN*X but it isn't UN*X
He said of the operating system that has been certified as UNIX.
/usr/local so that's what my installer should do /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow. /etc/group.
In honor of this guy, here's a list of super developer assumptions.
1. My user space software MUST be installed in directories that normally require system level access to add anything too.
2. No one would ever need multiple versions of my software installed at the same time so it's okay if I make them impossible to co-exist
3. People always install software locally and not in a shared directory.
4. People always just randomly spew files anywhere they want in
5. People always have have dedicated home directories for each machine that they might be simultaneously logged into so it's ok for my software to only allow one instance per home directory to be running at a time.
6. No one will ever try to X Forward my app.
7. My software will always be on a host by way of it's packaging system so it's okay for me to require that system to be in a good state with regard to my software's packages before running my software.
8. No one else would ever pick the same names as me for my project's library files. So I don't have to giver people ways to resolve collisions.
9. My user-space program should use a privileged network port.
10. My program can use a hard-wired network port because nothing else could ever want that port and the end-user could never have a need to run it on an alternate port
11. All connections from a given IP are going to be from the same instance of my program.
12. My program needs to have it's own user with a specific username.
13. My program needs to have it's own user with a specific UID.
14. My program's installer can add it's own user by just writing to
15. My program needs to have it's own group with a specific group name
16. My program needs to have it's own group with a specific GID.
17. My program's installer can add it's own group by just writing to
If you think that something that has been certified as UNIX isn't UNIX in all the important ways, those important ways are probably your assumptions, which may have even been on my list. And many of those assumptions might work in the case of a single machine with only one user who is also it's administrator, but will eventually break down. I suggest that if you find OS X, not to be UNIX in the right ways that you take some time, and consider how you opperate and ways to make it more robust.
bet Ballmer's happy the vista logo is only $250 (Score:4, Funny)
on the other hand, the vista window is a much-better known logo. like Mr. Yuk (tm) it serves as a valuable consumer warning device.
Actually more like $650... (Score:5, Funny)
OS X: $500
dark turtleneck + horn-rimmed glasses: $150
Re:Actually more like $650... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Actually more like $650... (Score:4, Informative)
Anyone who would wear a turtleneck and glasses that only cost $150 together is *obviously* not a mac user.
(I kid... sorta...)
Somehow (Score:3, Funny)
Ballmer has failed to cast his Svengali-like spell over me. I... I just don't know. It's just that for some reason I cannot explain, I am able to control the impulse to go out and buy a retail copy of Windows Vista Ultimate.
Sometimes it seems that I can go days without even thinking about it. This very morning, I got out of bed, and got myself a cup of coffee, and it didn't even occur to me that if only I had Microsoft Select Plus licensing, I might have Windows Embedded Enterprise in my coffee pot.
I wonder. Does this mean I have developed some kind of unusual resistance to Ballmer's powers of persuasion? Does this mean that I, unlike so many millions of others, have somehow managed to penetrate that fatal glamour?
That makes me feel so... so... special.
So... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is where fanboys decide the talking points for the next month or so and shit them all over the internet?
That's silly (Score:4, Funny)
Ballmer needs Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
The Linux desktop is Ballmer's real nightmare... and it is getting closer.
Its not just the logo... (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing Apple offers is good service. A user who isn't technical can buy their computer, their OS, and in a number of cases, the applications they use on a day to day basis (iWork for example) all from Apple. Instead of being shunted around between the hardware company, the OS vendor, the app maker, and perhaps some third party that is blamed for a driver issue, a user can just call one point of contact and most likely have the problem solved. Or, they can go to a Genius Bar and bring the machine and show the problem in person.
Of course, one personal account is statistically insignificant, but I can compare support experiences on a personal level (as opposed to calling a business support line.) For a problem in a laptop, one PC maker put me on hold for 2-3 hours, read a script demanding running diagnostics even though the problem was quite obvious, then pretty much said to go pester the OEM for the part for a replacement. When I had bad RAM in a new Macbook, I went to a Genius Bar, and they just swapped out the entire machine with a new one.
Business or premium PC support is different, but it definitely costs enough that brings the $500 to $1000 price difference way closer.
For the cost difference, less aggravation for a user who is more focused on the work they are doing as opposed to the computer can be worth it.
Another thing not factored in is OS X. OS X to some may bring the "Apple tax" gap closer together.
One can argue the security issues about OS X versus Windows, but because the malware makers are gunning for Windows with relatively few exploits for OS X in the wild, one doesn't have to be as on top of computer security. I can run an OS X box using the default browser without antivirus software and not really have to worry about the box ending up as a botnet client (although there are always Trojans). This would be pure suicide if I did the same with Windows and IE and no antivirus software. OS X is a lot more forgiving for people who are not atop things when it comes to securing their computer.
There is no Microsoft computer. (Score:4, Insightful)
But there ARE a variety of Apple computers, each somewhat different than the others. The Mac OS installer is smart enough to know which Mac it's being installed on, and configures itself accordingly.
As for Windows. Well, now. HOW many motherboards are out there? How many different video and sound cards? How many webcams and microphones? How many fiddling little DLLs and drivers?
And Windows has to accommodate them all. Or, rather YOU, the users, have to accommodate them all on your own, by seeking out and downloading the latest drivers for some card made in China using FSM knows what revision of onboard firmware.
MS sells HOW MANY versions of XP and Vista? How many versions of Windows 7 will there be?
Mac OS X. One box, one version. Install on as many Macs as you own. Got the last version of Mac OS X and you just bought the latest? Go ahead, SELL the old one or give it away.
Apple Doesn't Care!
Same with their iLife and iWork application suites.
They WOULD rather that you didn't upload the DVD to Pirate Bay or the like. But they don't make anyone phone home or authenticate an install or give you grief if you don't have the serial number from the box.
ALL my installs of OS X have been from previously owned install DVDs. NEVER a problem. NEVER an authentication from Cupertino required.
Office? Feh! iWork, US$80.00 retail, probably less with an academic discount. iLife, same price.
Other software? Photoshop? Please. Graphic Converter uses most PS plug ins and filters. Outlook Express? I can manually infect my Mac with viruses and trojans without any help, thank you very much.
Mail app or Eudora work just fine for me as email applications. And neither will do anything I don't explicitly authorize.
Internet Explorer? Please! Don't make me laugh, I have chapped lips! Firefox makes IE its bitch 24/7.
Mac OS vs. Windows? Two Words: TIME MACHINE!
So, yeah, Ballmer, you sweaty little monkey, shrieking and throwing your feces at passersby, that logo IS worth the extra money to me.
If only because YOU don't see a penny of it.
been said already... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is definitely the pot calling the kettle black. How much am I paying exactly for all those "Built for Windows" stickers I've had to scrape off?
From my experience... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm a post graduate student who has not so many bucks (Pounds in my case) lying around, either. But still, in June as soon as Apple releases their Snow Leopard I will go for a 24 inch iMac. Will cost me about 1085 Pounds as a student (incl. wireless mouse/keyboard), but for this money I get a computer which provides me with excellent value for the price: huge screen with high 1920x1200 resolution, excellent operating system with hardly any anoyances, things-just-work environment whit all the things I (!) need.
I have already an 20 inch iMac with Leopard at the office and therefore I know that it provides me whit precisely my needs. And compared to other students and member of staff which opted for Windows machines the iMac outperfomes them with respect to usability and complete lack of any problems (you have no idea how much problems the Windows machines have in the Windows centric world we have at our office!).
Anyways ... I for myself don't mind if Balmer keeps dreaming or throwing chairs. ;-)
So is a $1,300 Microsoft "SeniorPC" a Better Deal? (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft is touting $1,300 SeniorPC Packages [microsoft.com]. According to the sales pitch, it's "what seniors want in a PC." Think SteveB feels this a better value than a Mac? :-)
Apple's margins have to come down (Score:3, Insightful)
The basic problem is that the price point for a computer is now $299. Apple can get away with some brand premium, but not $500 any more.
This won't kill Apple. Their volume products, the iPhone and the various iPods, are down into that price region already.
Also, the era of "bling" is so over. Walk into any jewelry store today. It will be empty of customers. (Or, quite possibly, an empty storefront.)
I do Windows support from my mac (Score:3, Interesting)
I took the Mac plunge a couple years back and wouldnt buy anything else hardware wise now at least when it comes to notebooks. I need something reliable, portable and fast so far OSX fits that bill.
For me the best part about OSX is its portablity, try taking a harddrive out of a windows machine and moving it to another non indentical one and see what happens. With OSX as long as its an intel moving to an intel or ppc moving to ppc its just plug and go doesnt matter if its a core or core2 or what model. Better yet try troubleshooting a hardware problem on one windows machine by simply holding down a key on bootup to boot from another machine without having do anything without having to touch the innards.
As for price, my macbook (I dont own a pro) has better specs than the T61 for which I paid $200 more.
It's not the logo (Score:3, Interesting)
It's the ease of use.
Personally I run Windows. At home and at work. I've used a Mac maybe a grand total of 48 hours in my life. That should tell you where I'm at with bias.
I also do tech support for printers. I suspect maybe half a percent of our calls the user is running OS X. Solving issues there is very simple (again I've not really used a Mac):
*Unplug the printer
*Go to system, printers, control/right click, reset printer system
*Reconnect the printer (or add it if it's a network printer)
This works in 95% of all cases
Windows:
*Unplug the printer
*Empty the printer queue
*Delete the printer
*Disable firewall programs (even for USB printers, and don't ask my why that works)
*Reconnect the printer (or add it if it's a network printer)
This works in 50% of all cases
Fewer steps, huge difference in effectiveness.
If it doesn't work ...
Mac:
*Unplug printer
*Reset print system again
*Create a new user account
*Run a file system fix
*Add printer
Windows:
*Unplug printer
*Delete printer
*Get customer to run a batch file from a special folder on the CD
***This is an issue in an of itself, as quite a lot of customers think you're telling them to open either the C or D drive ("well, which one" is a classic. DVD doesn't help: "I don't have a V drive")
*Hand holding them through this uninstall ("Yes, now you click next")
*Run MSconfig to disable all startup items and non-microsoft services and reboot
*Doublecheck that their AV and firewall is disabled (Norton's older programs are notorious about running anyway)
*(Realise that the customer is using a wireless network and a special service/startup item is used to activate their wireless NIC - applies only to network printers)
*Add the printer again
*Reboot to normal mode again
Then of course there are issues with routers that don't function well with IPv6 (or Vista's implementation of it). While it's cool that Windows finally has an IPv6 stack for those that need it, it's not cool that it'll break the network. I only know this because of the issues we have with it. Disabling the IPv6 stack on Vista computers on the network probably solves about half of the issues we cannot solve otherwise. Again, nothing I've seen happen on Mac OS X, but we don't have nearly as big a pool of cases to pick from.
Sure, we don't get as many calls about OS X as we do Windows. But the market share for Mac is much higher than the number of issues we have compared to Windows. Either Windows has dumber users, or Windows does something much worse than the Mac does with regards to printers. My guess is mostly the latter.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
It's about service. (Score:5, Insightful)
My bias: I primarily run Linux (writing this on a Debian workstation), so I suppose I might be more of a "Microsoft basher" than an "Apple fanboy."
However, one thing I will say about Apple is that it has arguably the best customer service of any large company I have ever dealt with in ANY FIELD.
Fortunately, Apple products tend to "just work" and continue "just working" so I don't have to deal with service that much. However, when I have I have been impressed.
When I called Apple support for a particularly obscure software problem, within I got conferenced in with an OS X software engineer who had kernel HFS code in front of him. Keep in mind, this was the standard consumer 800-number level support! How often would this happen at, say, Microsoft?
I broke one of the mechanical components of my iPhone, walked into an Apple store, and within ten minutes walked out with a replacement phone - no arguing, frustration, or upselling attempted. Along the same vein, a friend of mine had a laptop that was YEARS off warranty, and when the DVD drive finally died Apple still offered to repair it at no charge.
I've even gone into the Apple store to look at accessories like earphones and had a salesperson tell me that a different retailer was having a sale that I should check out to save money.
My point I suppose is that the "Apple tax" (or what I would more formally refer to as the "brand premium") is in no small part to pay for having a large number of well-trained (even more with respect to customer interaction than technical skill) employees with sufficient authority to actually deal with problems. Apple takes the attitude that customer satisfaction is more important than low prices - and I thank them for it.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
How much is it really worth to have a white laptop for instance?
It's an especially interesting question when there are people who will then pay an additional $200 to get a black MacBook.
Re:Many differences but... (Score:5, Funny)
According to Apple, about 50 bucks less than having a matte black one.
Re:Many differences but... (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all I don't think the price difference is anywhere near $500.
The simple truth is that Apple doesn't make any cheap PCs. They all seem to be well made with good components and with good support. All that really does cost money. I have only owned three apple products and all of them are iPods. They are all well made and have outlasted every other MP3 Player I have owned. My old Nano is just sitting since I got a touch but it works just fine.
Ballmer may be correct. Except that what that means is that people will settle for Windows but they still really want a Mac. That makes Windows what you get when you can not get anything else.
It also means that Windows could loose to Linux since it is even cheaper.
Not a good place to be. They are in the middle.
Plus Apple can always produce a cheaper PC if they want to. Can Microsoft make an OS cheaper than Linux?
Re:So which hardware _is_ better? (Score:4, Insightful)
want to know a hint? 90% of people will never upgrade their computer beyond ram and Hard drives.
laptops should show you the truth of that. by the time a computer is old enough to start upgrading parts the entire system is generally not worth it. cpus generally need new motherboards.
I use macs precisely because once I max out the ram the machine will last long enough(4-5 years) that by the time I want to upgrade again I might as well buy a whole new machine. simply because of CPU upgrades alone.
I have built my own machines. I have run windows, and Linux. I have bought from Dell, apple, IBM, and Acer. In the end you have to find a machine that works the way you do. I don't have to fuss with my Macs. I don't have to tweak them. I don't have to download driver updates that crash out the machine(windows and Linux) to maintain what i already have.
Everyone is different. Like some people like to tweak their cars some geeks like to tweak their computers. Some like spending their money on fancy stuff, but most prefer to buy a mid priced car that just works with minimal maintenance.
Re:I've always found it ironic... (Score:4, Funny)
We do it because Sony fanboys are almost as fun to troll as furries. :)