Why Japan Hates the iPhone 884
Ponca City, We love you writes "With a high level of technical sophistication, critical customers, and high innovation rate, Japan is the toughest cell phone market in the world. So it's not surprising that although Apple is the third-largest mobile supplier in the world, selling 10 million units in 2008, in Japan the iPhone is selling so poorly it's being offered for free. The country is famous for being ahead of its time when it comes to technology, and the iPhone just doesn't cut it. For example, Japanese handset users are into video and photos — and the iPhone has neither a video camera, multimedia text messaging, nor a TV tuner. Pricing plans in Japan are also very competitive, and the iPhone's $60-and-up monthly plan is too high compared to competitors; a survey lat year showed that among Japanese consumers, 91% didn't want to buy an iPhone. The cellular weapon of choice in Japan would be the Panasonic P905i, a fancy cellphone that doubles as a 3-inch TV and features 3-G, GPS, a 5.1-megapixel camera, and motion sensors for Wii-style games. 'When I show this to visitors from the US, they're amazed,' according to journalist Nobi Hayashi, who adds, 'Carrying around an iPhone in Japan would make you look pretty lame.'"
Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Insightful)
In Japan, only old people use iPhones?
No, the fact is that the iphone is a piece of crap that doesn't do anything special. It's a triumph of marketing.
The only reason the iphone is popular in the US is that other US cell phone options are so crappy, but that's a reflection of what the US carriers are selling.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:4, Insightful)
PS - can we avoid turning this into a fanboy flamewar - just this once? I called it sexy...
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Funny)
...every douche already owns one.
I don't.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Funny)
Ah, that explains the spherical white helmet.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Insightful)
I couldn't care less about MMS, I can upload photos to facebook or get stuff off of my e-mail.
I also have no desire to watch videos, if I'm going to watch TV or a movie, it's going to be off of my DVR or computer on my 52" TV and 7.1 surround system on my comfortable couch with a beer, not on my tiny ass cell phone. Youtube, the internet and the app store provide more than enough instant entertainment if I'm stuck somewhere or bored.
I have no need for turn by turn directions either, I actually prefer google maps + GPS.
My biggest complaint about the iPhone is that you have to crack it to do certain things, like copy over ringtones.
The iPhone doesn't suck, you're just being anti-trendy and generally pissed. I'm not a fan of trendy shit or Apple in general, but the iPhone is a pretty good device.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple has historically been different, one of the few companies welcomed, even enthusiastically embraced by the Japanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TyR3fyLO_I [youtube.com]
They love gadgets over their. The way Apple does things, and the typical build quality is what the Japanese market is all about. Cool technology packaged in an easy-to-use, stylish package. It's not like North America, where it's more or less a race to the bottom to see who can build the cheapest widget with the biggest numbers, to hell with quality. They *care* about (perceived) build quality. That's why the expensive Sony Trinitron that never had significant market share here, dominated over there during the years of tube based Televisions. It wasn't just a "buy domestic" mentality. Because much of Sony's competition was Japanese as well.
The iPod and the Mac mesh *perfectly* with what the Japanese love about technology. In fact, I'd even go so far to say the iPhone gets it nearly right, but fails with several, easily corrected critical flaws that Apple just seems unwilling to correct. MMS, Video, App Store issues - that's all software, the build quality of the hardware seems perfectly respectable to me. It feels quick and responsive most of the time, and I'd never own one because of lack of openness (my definition of "open" may differ as I'm a Windows Mobile fan) and because of those few fatal flaws mentioned in TFA.
(This is my second post today defending Sony. I need to go take a shower.)
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's Japan. I don't care what you offer, it's going to be damn difficult for a 'Western' company to crack that nut.
Doable, just difficult.
It's not really all that difficult. In fact, the iPod does just fine there. (The Walkman digital players are neck and neck, but that's to be expected - there is *some* home court advantage, just in the marketing and language if nothing else.)
In fact, there are not many categories of anything there over which we (meaning western companies) have not had at least some influence, and in many cases are market leaders. It's a total myth that the Japanese only like Japanese products. Well ok, then how do you explain Levi's, Starbucks, McDonald's, Apple (other than the iPhone), Microsoft, Chanel, Coach, hollywood movies, Mariah Carey, etc. etc.?
The fact is they love our stuff. They just don't love all of it equally, and why should they? We don't love all of our stuff equally either. They just happen to have slightly different priorities in what they're looking for, but they have no bias whatsoever in terms of where the products they use come from.
The companies that do best there are the ones that tweak their stuff to Japanese tastes and/or expectations. That should be obvious, but apparently it was not obvious to Apple with the iPhone, which is clearly on the low end of phones in Japan on specs... and uglier than most too. So it's no surprise that it would be unpopular.
But if it had an 8mp camera, a TV tuner, a cheaper rate plan, a higher-res screen, a clamshell design and proper buttons? It wouldn't matter who made it, people there would buy it.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Funny)
No, the fact is that the iphone is a piece of crap that doesn't do anything special.
Wrong: there's that one app that displays a zippo lighter, and you can open up the zippo and light it, and then if you tilt the phone the flame ACTUALLY MOVES!
Yeah. Put THAT in your pipe and then use that app to smoke it.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:4, Insightful)
The P905i is already outdated. I've had mine for over a year now. Lots of the phones they have now make the P905i look like ancient tech. Motion sensors which rotate the clock display so it stays upright as you turn the phone 10Mpx cameras with touch screens for selecting your photo subject. 4 inch tv screens with multimedia capability that would make your head spin. You can record your favorite TV show while you're at work, bring your phone home, plug it into your TV and watch the show on the big screen. Complete webkit stack (Yes, that means you can become a walking web server).
Seriously, you're iPhone sucks compared to what's out now.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Informative)
Could somebody explain what the point of a 10 MP CCD is with a typical cell phone lens being only 1.25 mm in diameter with a 3.5 mm focal length? That's like putting a Ferrari engine in a Pinto, but slightly less useful.
By my math, the resolving power of the lens provides for a horizontal resolution (at the red end of the spectrum) of just shy of 4,000 pixels in the long direction on a cell-phone-sized CCD, and that's if the lens is ground perfectly and if the alignment between lens and CCD is also perfect. Chances are, at 3600 pixels, a 10 MP photo is probably significantly exceeding the real-world resolving power of any real-world cell camera lens unless the lens costs $10,000 to grind and is glued to the sensor....
Not to mention that the light gathering capabilities of such a small lens are terrible and that the low light SNR of a CCD is inversely proportional to the number of pixels. Can a 10 MP cell phone camera take pictures of usable quality in anything less than the light of the sun going nova?
Seriously, I just don't get it. It's like they're adding pixel count because they can without stopping to consider whether they should.... Above about 3 MP, a cell camera makes no sense given the lens size, quality, and mounting tolerances. Maybe 5 MP. Maybe.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Interesting)
I prefer most of my purchases to be with good, old fashioned cash. I can keep up with my spending better that way...it isn't abstracting money from value, say like how casino chips make you forget you're really playing for real money.
I feel exactly opposite to this - I use my credit card or debit card for absolutely everything I can (within reason) in order to keep track of my money. At the end of the month I can import my bill electronically into Quicken and see where all my money went. Even without Quicken at least there is a record. Contrast this with - crap, I just took $200 out of the ATM Monday and now I have 12 cents left in my pocket - where did it go?
I always pay my credit card off at the end of the month so there is no CC debt hell.
Now to get back on topic, sort of ...
Paying with my iPhone would likely have similar advantages.
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Using an iPhone makes you look pretty lame? (Score:5, Informative)
only foreigners, perhaps (Score:5, Funny)
There are a lot of American things that seem to be chic in Japan, but technology has never really been one of them. It's like trying to impress a German with your precision-engineered American luxury car or something.
Re:only foreigners, perhaps (Score:5, Funny)
Or like impressing a Frenchman with your tasty British cuisine.
Japan hates the iPhone (Score:5, Funny)
Oh no, it has become self-aware!
Hijacking (Score:4, Informative)
My cellular weapon of choice, of course is an iPhone and my cellular weapon of choice to the foreigners is INFOBAR2 and I don't even dare to charge my P905i these days.
This from the guy misquoted in both the article and summary. The author actually asked for his opinion, but then took something from an old interview.
What's new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What's new? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What's new? (Score:4, Insightful)
But you're misquoting it. It's "there's no accounting for taste"; You stuck the "bad" in there. The more common saying has a lot of truth in it, and expresses exactly what rshol said.
Re:What's new? (Score:4, Interesting)
The Japanese seem to have a talent for doing everything to excess. Sometimes that's a good thing, such as when they decide to make something sleek and efficient. Then you get, say, the 1989 Nissan 240SX, with a .26 CD, 30 MPG freeway on 87 octane (the Japanese version probably does better, but on more expensive fuel) and some of the best handling ever seen in a sports car of its class. Other times they decide to gewgaw it up to the max, and you get any Sony Vaio product with buttons that fall off and shit. Er, do I have a bone to pick? Anyway the point is that you can find ample examples of both, but I think you're right about the electronics these days. Not that I can load the page that shows their favorite phone. Personally I just want a fucking eyetap built into some Oakley M-frames with photo-gray tint, and a discreet wearable computer so I don't look like a total tard at all times, and I want it to replace all of my computers or at least their current interfaces. What's better than a monitor with a privacy filter? No monitor, and no keyboard either. Then I can jerk around with my own virtual interfaces all I want.
Re:What's new? (Score:4, Funny)
Obligatory: [wikipedia.org]
What about my electronic lavvy? It comes when you call, takes your trousers down, does everything - it's just so stylish.
Due to hit the Japanese market in... what, three years?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I have a one-word rebuttal:
iDrive [wikipedia.org]
To be fair, it's much better now... but WOW, what a price to pay for a spartan dashboard!
Also, you have to consider that the market for the Honda Civic in no way overlaps with any German car. Even the Volkswagen marketing doesn't really overlap too much. The street racing crowd is not going to be showing off too many Rabbits or Jettas.
But I agree with you and think the VW Rabbit dash [rankingsandreviews.com] looks better than the Civic dash [rankingsandreviews.com]. Mostly I object to the silvery trim, but most of what I se
Don't be so surprised. (Score:3, Informative)
For one, the Japanese are well ahead of the West in terms of cellphone technology, as witnessed by the description of the P905i. For the Japanese, the 3G iPhone is old hat.
In addition, unlike in the U.S., where we love Japanese products, the Japanese hate our products. They're very biased towards home-grown stuff. They typically steer clear of imports. Imports are generally more expensive in Japan due to tariffs and such, too.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it's more than that. In Japan, space is very constrained and most of the phones I saw there were flip phones. This gave the user a modicum of privacy, even on crowded transport. iPhones simply aren't made with that type of concern in mind.
Re:Don't be so surprised. (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed.
The Japanese make a mockery of WTO "free trade" regulations on a daily basis, but they get away with because they're a relatively small market compared to the US. By contrast, when some of us in the US suggest that maybe we should switch to "fair trade" that imposes tariffs on goods imported from places that have zero environmental protection laws and pay out slave-labor wages (to even the playing field), we get shouted at about "protectionism."
The Japanese also have a major cultural complex about what is "true japanese." If you have one grandparent who wasn't born in Japan (or worse yet, isn't ethnically asian), it doesn't matter that your family may have been there for 75 years, as far as they are concerned you're still a gaijin. If you're there for tourism, grand, but trying to live there and get employment, or even someday fit into Japanese society as a gaijin? Might as well forget it unless you're going to be an Engrish teacher [engrish.com] (and even then, the "natives" will get promoted above you every time).
American and European products? Well, that's gaijin stuff.
Re:Don't be so surprised. (Score:5, Interesting)
While your argument does hold some merit to the "discrimination" against foreign products the most likely reason for the iPhone hate is that it does not function the way most Japanese people need it to. When I was in Tokyo last year, for every 10 people I saw using a cell phone 9 of them were texting and most of them had a flip phone. In fact I found the size of the phones to be quite funny because they looked like the early flip phones...very large.
Having seen and played around with an iPhone I can see why it would not appeal to people who just text with their phone. Especially when riding on a train so that you are holding on to the railing with one hand and texting with the other. Also, the keyboard on the iPhone takes up screen space. Why would you want to lose a lot of the screen to a touch keybpad when you can get a phone that has a separate screen and keypad?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Why would you want to lose a lot of the screen to a touch keybpad when you can get a phone that has a separate screen and keypad?
Is this not obvious? So that you can fill the surface of the phone with screen, therefore having a bigger screen. You use the keypad when you need it, but then if you wana watch something for example, the keypad goes and you have a nice large screen to watch stuff on.
Re:Don't be so surprised. (Score:5, Informative)
but they get away with because they're a relatively small market compared to the US.
What?! They are the second largest economy in the world... That's hardly what I'd call a "small market".
Re:Don't be so surprised. (Score:5, Interesting)
Get over yourself. My mother's caucasian American, my Father's Japanese. I don't get treated like a Gaijin even though I definitely don't have the pure-Japanese look. All it takes is a good understanding of the culture (and living it), and speaking Japanese like a native. I've never had anyone promoted over me simply because they were more Japanese than I was, although I have been accused of the opposite, in that my "American" background put me at an advantage. (Partially true, since both Japanese and English are a native language to me, and speaking both is a massive plus in my field, but that has nothing to do with my genetic makeup.) The "he got promoted because he was xxxx" is, 90% of the time, the sound of a loser whining.
One thing I see with "Engrish Teachers" getting passed up for promotion is that their English is good, but the Teaching part is not. (Which is to be expected... how many gaijin English teachers in Japan do you know that have had adequate training to become a teacher? A number very close to ZERO would be the answer.) That may not be the teacher's fault considering the way these teachers are recruited, but it is certainly a valid reason why the promotions may not be moving in their favor.
As far as the iPhone is concerned, I have one, and I know what the complaining is all about. I'd say that 50% of the problem is that the iPhone doesn't offer any of the proprietary "keitai" functions that everyone has come to expect from ANY phone these days in Japan. Offer a product that doesn't have the functions you want, and it's no surprise that people don't want it. However, another 50% of the problem is that it's locked into the SoftBank carrier. Piss poor customer service, terrible reception unless you're in the middle of one of the big cities, and bad pricing plans upon launch.
But when the summary quotes Nobi Hayashi (who the hell is this guy!?) as saying that carrying an iPhone is "lame", well... sounds like he's either sour because he doesn't have one, or else he only hangs around keitai geeks. Having an iPhone is a GREAT conversation starter with girls. Carrying a Panasonic P905i isn't gonna generate the same kind of enthusiasm.
Re:Don't be so surprised. (Score:5, Interesting)
But the iphone lack of success is little (nothing?) to do with all that.
Using "protectionism" as an excuse for the iPhone's failure, is like using "protectionism" as an excuse for your car not selling well in Japan, when the real reason is you don't make right hand drive cars.
The iPhone is an inferior product compared to the competing products in Japan. The iPhone doesn't even have built-in, reliable (non-fiddly) and well-integrated QR code (a type of 2D "barcode") reader app.
There are QR codes everywhere in Japan - business cards, ads, signs, magazines, etc.
Example usage: bus stops
See: http://2d-code.co.uk/bus-stop-qr-code/ [2d-code.co.uk]
"Each bus has a GPS which continuously updates the bus company server with its position. The QR Code at the bus stop takes you to a mobilised page for that stop which shows a list of approaching buses, their location, whether they are on time or delayed (if delayed by how many minutes), estimated arrival time at the stop and if there are any alternative buses going in the same direction."
The Japanese do buy foreign stuff, it just has to meet their standards. The Chinese need specially regulated farms for their farm produce to sell in Japan, you can call that protectionism, but I call it a good idea given the dubious stuff the Chinese tend to get up to ;).
Lastly with regards to forever being a "gaijin" and never being promoted.
If a real Japanese CEO screws up big time in Japan, they're almost expected to commit suicide (it's one of the traditional and honourable options left for you).
Whereas a US CEO gets 20 million dollars to "go away and stop hurting the company, please".
So yah, that's a big cultural divide there. Think you can really be one of them?
Even many of the Japanese can't be "japanese enough", and those suffer for it, because "a nail that sticks up/out must be hammered down". You think those will get promoted as well? Of course as a gaijin, you will forever stick out. So best you work for the few companies that are fine with that.
My friends didn't seem to have any complaints about working in Japan.
Re:Don't be so surprised. (Score:5, Insightful)
They're very biased towards home-grown stuff.
...the iPod sells well in Japan...
Re:Don't be so surprised. (Score:4, Funny)
In addition, unlike in the U.S., where we love Japanese products, the Japanese hate our products.
Except for our rice. They LOOOOVE California rice. I thought that this was odd until it was explained to me that the Japanese had brought the rice to California, and thus it was actually just Japanese rice grown in a better climate. LOL, how do I roll my eyes on the internet?
This is because Japanese people are smart (Score:5, Funny)
Have you ever noticed that they speak some strange version of the Mexican language and look unlike us? Also their food is expensive because we eat cows which are large, plentiful and docile animals, while Japanise people only eat fearsome and rare SHARKS to boast of their manliness. In conclusion, Japan is a far away place somewhere in Mexico where smart people do not eat cows. Thank you will you marry me.
of course (Score:4, Insightful)
The iPhone is inferior in lots of ways. It has NO stereo bluetooth support! It also lacks bluetooth IP networking for tethering to your laptop, and it doesn't use the standard USB mini-B cable.
The iPhone needs a lot of improvement before I would consider it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It has NO stereo bluetooth support! It also lacks bluetooth IP networking for tethering to your laptop, and it doesn't use the standard USB mini-B cable.
*shrug*, when I look for a phone none of these things are even a consideration for me. I don't use bluetooth for anything and I really don't care about what USB cable is used as long as I can transfer what I need to the device quickly.
Personally there are plenty of choices out there in phones because people have different needs and tastes. The iPhone isn't
Re:of course (Score:4, Insightful)
But it always goes back to the original iPod review on /.
"No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."
There is a schism between the features crowd and the functions well crowd. Apple bridges that well enough for the American market to come up with products people really want. But the problem has always been the solely American-centric focus. Japanese and many other markets don't have the same tastes. Perhaps the Japanese are more toward the features side and are techy enough not to worry about seamless integration (I have no idea).
Let's face it: the killer app on the iPhone are two things: seamless integration among components (hardware/software) and now the App Store - giving you thousands of capabilities that competitors don't have now (but easily can). (Balmer: Developers, developers, developers!!!)
But you can't go into foreign markets with the exact same thing, prices, etc and expect not to be completely beaten up. Just like most domestic US cars are unsellable almost everywhere else: they are simply too big in both exterior and motor size.
Apple is a design house. It's problem is that it is so centralized and secretive, it's hard for it to compete in other markets. It needs design houses in other countries to start competing elsewhere. And be willing to individualize their approach to regions/countries.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You can "design" until you are blue in the face but in the end of the day a 2 pound bag of shit with a pink bow tie is still a 2 pound bag of shit.
People's feelings will not change just because you changed your name from Diebold to Premier Election services or whatever they're called now.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's face it: the killer app on the iPhone are two things: seamless integration among components (hardware/software) and now the App Store
No, the killer apps are the tolerable music player that syncs with iTunes and the first decent small-screen web browser.
(And why do you keep repeating this term "seamless integration"? If it were seamless, you wouldn't have to exit every application to run another, as if it were Palm OS, or DOS. That's a very big seam.)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Proof (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Proof (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe we just need stop believing that we all must have a cell phone and stop buying the crap about which you are complaining? Or we all buy stripped down, inexpensive models with basic plans.
What you may not be factoring in is that the vast majority of the American cell phone-buying public thinks the iPhone is the greatest thing since sliced bread. They don't care about Linux, and they don't know what Japan is doing outside of their anecdotal awareness that the Japanese are very tech-savvy.
If you want the government to force cell phone companies and carriers to do anything it will cost you tax dollars - probably a greater amount relative to the time you will have to wait for the cell phone companies/carriers to come to your awareness in their own time.
Re:Proof (Score:4, Insightful)
Cell phones in asia are less tools, and more fashion statements. They're like your designer handbags or fancy shoes, except priced at a point even teenagers would be able to and do afford multiple phones. And because the major networks are GSM, people can easily switch phones to match their current attire with a swap of a SIM card. This means there's insane competition in Japan, and it means there's a huge drive for continuous innovation to stay ahead of the fashion curve (it's fashionable to be tech-competent over there). To even begin to do that here, the government needs to do a few relatively minor, but important things:
1) Encourage open infrastructure. Basically, undo everything the FCC has been doing for the past 8 years. If a government grant was used to build a network, then the operator should be forced to lease the network to a third party for wholesale prices. Or, put network operators in the same class as gas and electric companies, and heavily regulate them.
2) Encourage open standards within the government. The government should encourage standardization based on open standards. It should give grants to organizations that work towards such ends, and stipulate that by taking government money, the result is public domain. That eliminates a lot of barriers to entry to a market.
3) Return the rights to the people. That means outlawing anti-competitive exclusivity clauses and the likes. Forcing phone carriers to make their numbers portable was a great move. That trend of forcing interoperability has to continue. For example, France requires unlocked versions of phones to be sold alongside their locked version.
4) Remove the teeth of patent trolls. The patent system needs to be significantly overhauled. As the system exists currently, patents stifle innovation, not encourage it.
Doing this won't change the culture overnight. But I'm certain we'll start to see improvements within 5 years.
Re:Proof (Score:5, Insightful)
No, the question we should ask us is precisely "why is Japan so far ahead of us technologically". I want to know why they can have all that fancy stuff on their phones, and I can't. The question "why is Japan so far behind us in soft technologies?" is not for us, but for Japan. It's their problem, so it's them who should think about it. Why waste time on thinking why somebody else has a problem you don't?
Well...The iPhone isnt that special... (Score:3, Insightful)
Everyone still drools over the iPhone as if it has every feature of every phone and more! When it's just an on par smart device. Sure it has a lot of great features and the app store from apple, but there are far better phones in existence and its sure not going to get people who are being described as the peak of technological civilization(true or not).
I am happy with my HTC Vogue, it plays music...and has internet...I think it even makes calls...oh wait its the sprint network...so no, no calls...
That phone description sounds familiar (Score:3, Interesting)
and features 3-G, GPS, a 5.1-megapixel camera, and motion sensors for Wii-style games. 'When I show this to visitors from the US, they're amazed,'
Android G1 owners wouldn't be "amazed". After all, it they are describing a G1.
Re:That phone description sounds familiar (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6J5EtiQ1ps [youtube.com]
An indictment of Japan, really (Score:3, Interesting)
The Panasonic P905i wouldn't appeal to me at all. I really don't think of a cell phone that doubles as a portable TV is particularly innovative; I think it's rather sad.
I saw this all over Japan, people watching TV on the subway... and meanwhile the Internet access and web capabilities of this phone, and others in Japan, are quite poor relative to what the iPhone or G1 can do.
I'm sorry, but being able to watch live TV on a cell phone is not "OMG, it's so advanced, I want it" in my book.
Pretty lame? (Score:5, Insightful)
"'Carrying around an iPhone in Japan would make you look pretty lame.'"
God, how I wish I could get that Japanese cellphone with built-in 3" TV (Panasonic P905i) because I've always chosen cellphones out of regard of what Japanese teenagers might think of me! :-p
Sorry, I'll just stick with the iPhone, and upgrade to a phone based on Android when it matures. I would have love to have gone with an openmoko phone but that platform was pretty much stillborn. :(
Japanese cellphones are way way ahead of ours? Next thing you know, you'll be telling us that third-world countries have faster interweb access than we do - without bandwidth caps. This is old news.
Re:Pretty lame? (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, I'll just stick with the iPhone, and upgrade to a phone based on Android when it matures.
Similarly, I'm sticking with my Motorola V980 phone, and will upgrade to a new phone when it matures. A necessary condition for "maturity" is having basic functionality that even my years old bog standard phone has, such as copy/paste, and MMS. (Cue the "But I don't need that, so why would anyone else!" posts.)
Japanese cellphones are way way ahead of ours? Next thing you know, you'll be telling us that third-world countries have faster interweb access than we do
Indeed. I'm in the UK, which perhaps explains why the supposedly "new" Iphone offerings have been done here in ordinary phones for years. And people have the cheek to claim that other manufacturers are copying the Iphone!
A better title would have been (Score:5, Funny)
"Japan is immune to Reality Distortion Field"
Re:A better title would have been (Score:5, Insightful)
Japan has its own Reality Distortion Field.
One that makes Jobs' RDF look like that worn-out magician at the street corner that never manages to get any of his lame tricks right.
Re:A better title would have been (Score:4, Insightful)
Immune to Apple's, maybe... But I'm sure they've got plenty of their own.
Text messaging? (Score:4, Interesting)
multimedia text messaging
Japan has never even used "text messaging" as in the horribly lame and limited SMS - they use normal email for that. I don't think anybody is missing some kludgy extension to a protocol they never used in the first place, either.
free iphones from softbank (Score:3, Informative)
It's the Kanji support stupid (Score:5, Informative)
Kanji input on the iPhone is as good as the other cell phones. Given that text messaging is a major use for cell phones, this is a big problem.
The UI on the iPhone blows away Japanese cell phones (I live in Japan and I use them all the time). The reason the iPhone isn't taking off as well in Japan is the kanji support and Softbank's piss poor marketing support. They have not done a good job of differentiating the iPhone from the other touch screen phones and, in fact, SoftBank carries several other touch screen phones which is confusing.
Re: (Score:3)
Well that'd make sen-
Wait, what? Did you mean to say it isn't as good as with other phones? Because that'd make a lot more sense. (And if so, I'm curious as to what exactly is wrong with it; I don't even have an iPhone, let alone input Japanese with one)
Makes me wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
Although the Japanese and a number of Asian countries are "ahead of us" (read USA) when it comes to technology, most Americans I know of still regard the USA to be the most technologically advanced country in the world. It baffles me.
Just last week, I was in Shanghai and I can say that from the Magnetic Levitation train to the technology that runs and manages public transit, those folks are way ahead of us.
When I rode the subway in New York on return to USA, you could not blame me for thinking I am in a country of the fifties. What's happened to the USA?
Re:Makes me wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Makes me wonder (Score:5, Funny)
I have no mod points for this excellent comment so instead I'll pay you in Cheetos.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree (Score:5, Funny)
It doesn't do much for your reputation in the U.S. either...
I like to use the old Bluetooth headset analogy.
Old Techie: "You know how lumberjacks will sometimes put a big red X on trees?"
Young Techie (who is wearing a bluetooth headset): "Like, yeah."
O.T.: "That big red X is a sign to other lumberjacks that the tree bearing it needs to be culled from the population."
Y.T.: "Culled. That's not really a word, is it?"
O.T.: "The bluetooth headset is the human equivalent."
/s/bluetooth\ headset/iPhone/g
Re:I agree (Score:5, Funny)
Could be.
Off-topic, young techie story: I was on IRC once, a decade or so ago, and a friend there was opining that it'd be so much more fun to write code if he could just do it on a real VT100, or at least on a monitor that had a VT100 logo on it. A year or so later, I found a DEC VT100 in good condition at the Dayton Hamvention fleemarket for $1.
He said it worked fine. I said I didn't care if it worked, and that I was only interested in the logo. I offered him $5, if he'd just let me pry off the logo. He refused, and was insistent that I take the entire terminal for $1 or nothing at all. So I gave him a dollar, and took the whole thing.
But it was heavy, and I wasn't about to carry it around all day. So I walked over to the nearest trash can, pried the logo off with my knife, and announced to the crowd my intention: Take this genuine DEC VT100, for free, or it goes into the trash. People looked. They listened. But here's the thing: Nobody wanted the free gear. I pleaded with folks to PLEASE take this free historic artifact, but they wouldn't do it.
So, I tossed it into the trash barrel. It landed with a dull thud on top of a mountain of discarded plastic bottles and small electronics. And then, everything changed: In mere seconds, Old Techies swarmed upon it like flies on shit to rescue it from its grave.
As long as it was merely free, the item had no value. But once it was trash, it was worth having.
Totally bizarre.
Re:I agree (Score:4, Insightful)
As long as it was merely free, the item had no value. But once it was trash, it was worth having.
I think that's because even if you claim you're offering something for free, there's still a feeling that they owe you. Whereas they owe a trash can nothing.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Two words: Japanese toilet [wikipedia.org]
Apple is not third!! (Score:5, Informative)
Apple is in absolutely no way the "third-largest mobile supplier in the world".
Not even close.
The top are: Nokia (40%), Samsung (14%), Motorola (14%), Sony Ericsson (9%) and LG (7%). Apple is well down in the single digits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone [wikipedia.org]
On the other hand they have captured a surprisingly large share of the revenue, but only because the iPhone is a high margin product and they don't compete in the high volume area.
Poor kamikazes (Score:5, Funny)
No MMS. LOL. (Score:3, Informative)
What Makes a Good UI (Score:4, Insightful)
The Japanese cell market sounds a lot like the Korean market, which makes me think that it's not just "features instead of UI" that makes the Japanese dislike the iPhone, but instead the UI itself. In Korea, when someone wants to get a specific feature of his cell phone, which may be through several "ugly" list menus, he flips open the phone, takes about a quarter second to hit the memorized sequence of hotkeys for menu choices on his hardware keypad without looking at the phone, and by the time he gets it out of his pocket and up to his head the feature is waiting for him. An American with an iPhone will take five more seconds to navigate through pretty menus to get to the same thing. The iPhone looks more friendly and advanced, but the guy with the archaic lists navigates his UI 10x faster. Even Americans, at least the more techy ones, can get used to their phones to the extent that the UI which looks clunky to us at first actually _works_ much better for them than an iPhone's can.
Re:What Makes a Good UI (Score:4, Informative)
Each menu on the phone is associated with a number 1= Call 2= Messages etc. and the same applies to the submenus. Most of my friends had these sequences memorized, so they could pick up a phone and type 1-2-1 and get into their received text messages menu etc. without looking at their phone.
The cool thing was that this sequence of menu's was the same in ALL the Nokia phones, so most of the users stuck with Nokia when they upgraded.
Later on Nokia changed their menu layout and their phone chargers causing a lot of the users to defect.
Re:maybe the reviews just don't translate well. (Score:5, Funny)
*in your best schoolgirl voice*
Kawaii~~~
or alternatively
*breathing heavily and drooling*
Moe~~~
Re:maybe the reviews just don't translate well. (Score:5, Funny)
Language note for the curious (Score:5, Informative)
The Japanese word transliterated "kawaii" is usually translated "cute" in dictionaries, and is composed of two kanji (borrowed Chinese characters), the first meaning "to be able to, to be allowed to" and the second meaning "to love" or "love". The Chinese word written the same way (ke3 ai4) is also translated as "cute" and the implied meaning from the order of the characters/words is "loveable".
Yes, that would most likely be the word used by Japanese tweenies and teenaged (and even older) ladies. Just remember, this is the nation and culture that brought us "Hello Kitty".
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Correction (Score:5, Informative)
Much like "mabayusi" (=> modern "mabusii") indicates a brightness so strong that you have to avert your eyes, "kahohayusi" literally describes a sight that you can't face. By metaphor, the original meaning of the word was "pitiable", "a sorry sight". This meaning is retained in the modern word "kawaisou", while the meaning of "kawaii" changed into "lovely, cute".
As for how that happened, we can conjecture something like this: small, weak things are pitiful, but they can also elicit a feeling of wanting to help them; the reaction changes from "turning your face away" to "extending your hand", so to speak, and thus the feeling becomes one of attraction.
(if you don't believe me, check the Gogen Yurai Jiten [gogen-allguide.com])
Who knows, maybe someday Japanese buyers will be moved by the pitiful, weak iPhone, and grant it a place inside their hearts.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's totally true... their gadgets are indeed bleeding edge, but American consumers wouldn't put up with the buggy nature of their gadgetry. We eventually get much of the same stuff, after the Japanese public has been kind enough to beta test it for us :)
By the way, even by slashdot standards... this is REALLY old news. Forbes was claiming the iPhone was doomed in Japan [forbes.com] over a year ago. If it succeeded despite all of that, well THAT would be some news.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:4, Interesting)
>>>American consumers wouldn't put up with the buggy nature of Japanese gadgetry.
Or the incessant obsolescence. Buy a MUSE analog HDTV in 1990, and have it obsoleted ten years later (broadcasts discontinued). Buy an Enhanced Definition Betamax around the same timeframe, and watch it go belly-up in 2003. Invest heavily in karaoke laserdiscs, and watch them be discontinued so you can no longer play your huge library.
There are advantages to waiting - like saving money not investing in doomed products.
Also I think obsessing about shiny new toys is not healthy - but that's just my own personal opinion. While it's true the Japanese had access to ED Betamax, and American consumers did not, I think we survived just fine. It was no great loss.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:5, Interesting)
ALso, for whatever reason, people seemed less impressed by its fancy pants touch scrolling UI, and more interested in simple lists they could click through, and being able to pull down over the air TV versus d/l videos.
Personally, I agree with my Japanese friends; I'm not a huge fan (I like a keyboard).
But, it's interesting to note that almost every expat American I saw on my last trip had an iPhone, though -- so there might be just more appeal, culturally, to Amercians and westerners for some reason. There's certainly no shortage of cult-of-Mac people in Japan, but it didn't seem to translate to the phone.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I'm always quite mystified by comments like that. In what way, other than perhaps a slightly wider form factor, does the iPhone "require" a second hand to use effectively? It's certainly speedier to have two thumbs available for typing, the ability to use multi-finger gestures like pinching... But if you're just quickly using it, in what way is it difficult?
The ability to touch-text is common here in the UK and I'd expect even more-so in Japan. I'd never buy a phone without a proper input pad for that very reason - touch-texting whilst pissed in a club and having a conversation is essential!
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be a good theory were it true, but the fact is the US cell phone market has always been even further behind than just skipping the beta phase. Every time I'd visit and go into a shop selling mobiles I'd have to chuckle to myself at the stuff they were selling which was years behind what we had even in Europe, let alone Japan.
This is why the original iPhone was a flop everywhere but the US (yes it was even a flop in Europe), people were looking at it and thinking what's the big deal when it's camera, it's memory, it's lack of custom apps, lack of MMS, lack of 3G, lack of GPS and so on made it a laughably poor device, whilst in the US it was pretty state of the art.
Move forward to the iPhone 3G and Apple have realise their mistakes and have moved forward a bit, but as stated in the summary, the iPhone still lacks features that many in Europe and Japan have come to expect.
The US is a world leader on most things, but cell phones are one of the few products the US was simply years behind on, often never even getting some of the high end Nokia models we enjoyed in Europe For example, did the US ever even get the Nokia 7650 in the end? a phone that in 2001 had a camera, could play Doom, browse the web, run Java apps- in fact, everything the original iPhone had minus touch screen but plus a whole bunch of other features (MMS, custom apps).
Apple realised the mobile gap was in the US and took advantage of that, they couldn't compete immediately with the companies like Nokia that had been doing it years and the US gave them a place to get started without ever needing to do so. Once their foot was in the door they could fairly quickly move on with their technology to produce a phone that was a little more attractive in Europe/Japan, if they keep it up and keep going they'll do well.
At the end of the day though, the summary comes as no suprise as it really is quite similar to the story here in Europe. It's not to slag Apple off, because if the US was as uptodate on mobile technology as Europe it's questionable whether Apple could've got it's foot in the door as easily as it did and more fool Nokia et. al. for not taking the opportunity to exploit the rather backwards US cell phone market themselves. I think this is also why the iPhone has the following it does, not necessarily because it's any better than other phones outside North America- it still lacks a lot of features European and Japanese phones have, but because it's a decent mid-range phone in Europe/Japan and more importantly, because it is light years ahead of much of what the US ever really had before it.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is why the original iPhone was a flop everywhere but the US (yes it was even a flop in Europe), people were looking at it and thinking what's the big deal when it's camera, it's memory, it's lack of custom apps, lack of MMS, lack of 3G, lack of GPS and so on made it a laughably poor device, whilst in the US it was pretty state of the art.
I was traveling overseas when the original iPhone came out and people were going crazy for it.
Not because it had good features, but because it was a status symbol.
Mobile shops were hawking it for 2x retail and selling out every time they got a new box of iPhones.
The mobile stores all had waiting lists, even those kiosks in the mall.
Having one meant either someone hand carried it from America or you paid >$1000 US
/But that's just my anecdotal experience.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:5, Interesting)
Being an original iPhone adopter from the U.S. I'd say it's strength isn't in its features, but in its usability. As stated 1000 times, the iPhone interface, much like the MacOS interface, is beyond any of its competitors, at least in the U.S. Intuitive, smooth, with good feedback (though not tactile -- and I've taken to sighing when I hear the tappity-tap of a blackberry user in a theater or classroom compared to the silent keyboard of the iPhone).
Dodging the easy car analogy, the iPhone is a partner who knows what you want, instead of someone who can offer anything you want.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:5, Funny)
I heard iPhones get angry if you anthropomorphize them.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe, as others have stated, Apple designed a product which would sell well in its primary market, the US. There's a "duh" moment for you. Yes, other markets have better mobile phones and coverage, but as a Canadian I don't feel bad for you Americans
I have to say though that given what little I've seen of the Panasonic P905i, I'd take the iPhone any day. A phone with a giant antenna and TV access? No thanks. It goes back to cultural preferences once again.
Re:Want to know what Linux can do? (Score:4, Funny)
I'll channel the average Apple fanboy and just say that copy-and-paste is an unnecessary feature that only makes things more difficult to use. You should be glad there's no cumbersome copy-and-paste feature! Apple knows best.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Not to mention Apple's been pretty hard-line as to the 'sandbox' concept for apps, and dramatic clipboard alterations would start giving people access to all sort
Re:How come it's only in Japan (Score:5, Insightful)
Because we're at the behest of the phone companies, not the other way around. They can comfortably sit on technology, and decide when to release/market it for the most $$$.
Then not only are you stuck with older technology, you're locked out of exploiting that technology to its fullest extent, by the same companies who have a secondary market peddling crappy closed source software.
Roll on OpenMoko.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They can comfortably sit on technology
Yeah I seen the videos too. Dirty bastards!
Re:How come it's only in Japan (Score:5, Interesting)
We don't get these kinds of telephones in Europe or the US because the... Wait for it... They...
SUCK!
No, seriously, they absolutely suck. I've been using the phones here for a few years, and one of the main features they have is that they're an implementation of a checklist of features you'll never use more than one or twice, all crammed into the least user-friendly UI you could imagine.
They have absolutely no sense of UI design, and being so used to dealing with crappy interfaces they're not even aware of the possibility nor the advantages of a well designed one. Seriously, have you ever looked at one of their webpages?
Call it taste, or what ever. But the reality is that the iPhone and phones from e.g. Nokia just don't do it well here in Japan, and neither of the two companies should try to change or they'll lose what gives them customers in the west.
Oh, and BTW... Softbank's (particulary their iPhone's) subscription plan sucks.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Users and their expectations differ widely, as the article mentions. One set of users want a device to do a few things very well, and another set wants it to do everything even if that makes it more complicated. Being a hardware developer, I am of the latter mindset.
Management is always on your ass to get the product out the door, generally as soon as it works. User interface considerations add greatly to the product latency, and if you have competitors you might not have the luxury of designing a good i
Re:How come it's only in Japan (Score:5, Insightful)
Because all these articles are talking rubbish. Japan is not ahead of us here, they just don't want the same thing as us. I explicitly don't want a phone that's a 3" TV, I don't want a phone that's a 5 megapixel camera with a shit lens, I don't want a phone that's a video camera, I don't want a phone that can send MMSes (especially when it can send email).
I want a phone that's simple to use, beautiful, and gets on with being a phone, which the iPhone is absolutely ideal for.
p.s. I *definitely* don't want a phone shaped like hello kitty.
Re:How come it's only in Japan (Score:5, Insightful)
True, and there are things about Japanese culture which make their cel phone market very different from ours. One of the biggest things is the way in which the Japanese commute to and from work: Japan has a much higher use of public transportation than does the U.S., and the Japanese are heavy users of rail travel. This means, according to the last figures I checked, the average Japanese working person has an hour commute to and from work which is, essentially, free time. Contrast this to the U.S., in which the majority of people drive to work.
To me, this explains a lot of the Japanese demand for the use of video and TV on the cel phones, and from the cel phone networks: they have the time and inclination to use those services. Contrast this to the U.S., in which people have to (supposedly) concentrate on their driving; we have lots of talk radio here, something to listen to during that commute which requires no hands.
Add to this all of the other commuting the Japanese do via rail and you have a market which just doesn't exist in the U.S. I think this holds true in Europe as well, which also has a higher incidence of public transportation use than the U.S. We drive here, a lot, and that niche just doesn't exist. Most Americans get their online TV and video either at work or at home. Which is to say that population and work patterns influence technology adoption and use as much as, or more than, GUI design and technical achievement.
At least that's my theory.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Does you phone sync your contacts, calendars and email OTA? Does it let you control your Media Center? Does it play 3D games?
Can you take a photo of something and load it into an app where you can annotate it and then email it off?
It's not about old/new technology.. it's about a platform that can be extended with a truly good interface that let's you do things... the iPhone isn't perfect but it is certainly one of the best mobile platforms ever created.
thats a real concern (Score:5, Insightful)
i have a blackberry with built in gps
the gps is disabled. why? because verizon wants me to buy their retarded cell phone tower triangulation location service for $10/ month. the gps chip is sitting right on my phone. free. locked. i downloaded the free gmail app (amazing they let me do that, huh?), and all i can do is a get a rough approximation of my location. i've got the hardware, on the phone, to get the free signal. and verizon won't let me
fucking evil, fucking retarded. it does nothing, dear verizon, except fill me with a burning hatred for you
now i can understand a cell company competing with the services of another cell company, and blocking this or that signal that is a PAID service
but when they go out and start squashing well-established FREE signal services, WHEN THE HARDWARE TO GET IT IS ALREADY ON THE FUCKING PHONE, i begin to channel my inner communist. that is the most evil retarded bullshit there is. free market business practices at their most evil
so i agree with you, i can see them blocking the free hdtv digital signals. 100% possible
the only redoubt i can consider is that, being a free market, t-mobile, sprint, etc., should unlock free gps and unlock free tv signals, if they aren't already, and make a marketing bonanza on that fact
you'd see verizon quickly lose customers, and quietly reverse their fucking evil shit sucking behavior
they already lost me, i totally hate them for that, and have told them in no uncertain terms
evil motherfuckers. blocking free gps in order to sell me their half assed triangulation service. the hardware is already built into THE DAMN PHONE you fucking asswipes
die you sleazy shitsucking verizon, die
Re:warning (Score:4, Funny)
The user "twitter" is a twitter sockpuppet.
Isn't that an infinite loop? If he is his own sock puppet, what is inside the sock? I now have this vision of an endless sock puppet with nothing but sock puppets inside, puppet as puppeteer...
And now my brain hurts...
Thanks